/tg/Station 13

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viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34876

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/publicbans.php

edit: new appeal viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34908

i am in every metagang discord that has ever existed and i am eating all of the snacks and dip when they're not looking

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:47 am

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:28 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:59 am we're hoping the less egregious cases appeal so that we can handle them based on ways they've distinguished themselves from the others who have been banned.

I hate to be that guy, but with sinful out of the players club, i suppose someone has to

how exactly would one appeal from those banned have more or less merit than another?
they were ALL in the discord together, does it really matter what was posted and by who, when they ALL CHOSE to stay in that discord and view the information?

it was pointed out in this thread that skye was a 1-month old player when some of those incidents that led to their ban were logged, as an example. i agree that most people should have given the discord a general sniff-test and gotten the hell out of there immediately, but i don't want to damn people on the basis of just wanting to have friends. we're all still human and get the good brain chemicals from sharing spaces of people that think in similar ways to us.

this is a great reply. I enjoyed this reply

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:58 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:12 pm It's not a good look for Cheshify to be going after a fellow candidate for shit that took place almost a year ago.

Some context, this wasn't a solo operation, but the work of the head admin team.
Why would I take out a candidate anyhow, I already won head admin.

This was also being investigated months before the election.

Timonk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:51 am What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

FEDS

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:12 pm It's not a good look for Cheshify to be going after a fellow candidate for shit that took place almost a year ago.

Is it?
I mean, obviously no. But even then, what would ches even have to gain? They already won, and xpoke didnt get a lot of traction.

holy shit they got the manuel mob

I wonder what the headcount of this is including all the temp bans. Will Manuel's player count drop noticeably from this? I wonder.

Timonk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:51 am What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

some logs were brought to our attention which we filtered through for what was relevant in our decisions. it was something already on our radar and this just gave us some unfortunate confirmations of suspicions that had been held/investigated previously.

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:59 am these bans were handed out with the idea that appeals would eventually come, and threads like these actually provide good insight on what individual players involved provided to the community at large. some of the people who ate permanent bans likely won't be appealing their rule 2 bans for the amount of evidence against them, but we're hoping the less egregious cases appeal so that we can handle them based on ways they've distinguished themselves from the others who have been banned.

..but sorry, could you clarify on this? I thought we stopped making bans that are planned to be appealed. Theyre generally a bad idea, for reasons pretty clear.

Constellado wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:16 am I wonder what the headcount of this is including all the temp bans. Will Manuel's player count drop noticeably from this? I wonder.

you can view any permanent bans placed via the public facing part of the db.

Constellado wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:16 am Will Manuel's player count drop noticeably from this? I wonder.

Why would they? I dont think your average manuellite cares much, no matter how big their static was. And we would have to ban a considerable room of people to have a noticeable drop in playercount

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:17 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:59 am these bans were handed out with the idea that appeals would eventually come, and threads like these actually provide good insight on what individual players involved provided to the community at large. some of the people who ate permanent bans likely won't be appealing their rule 2 bans for the amount of evidence against them, but we're hoping the less egregious cases appeal so that we can handle them based on ways they've distinguished themselves from the others who have been banned.

..but sorry, could you clarify on this? I thought we stopped making bans that are planned to be appealed. Theyre generally a bad idea, for reasons pretty clear.

planned to be appealed in the sense that these people weren't blacklisted and still deserve to have a say in defending themselves and knowing what was used to inform their punishment.

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:19 am

Constellado wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:16 am Will Manuel's player count drop noticeably from this? I wonder.

Why would they? I dont think your average manuellite cares much, no matter how big their static was. And we would have to ban a considerable room of people to have a noticeable drop in playercount

There was 7 perma bans and who knows how many temp bans.

I wonder if it is a considerable room of people or not. It probably was not, I am just curious to know. It would suck if my low pop rounds go even more low pop x.x

But people come and go. It will recover anyhow.

Im so tired

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:56 am i am in every metagang discord that has ever existed and i am eating all of the snacks and dip when they're not looking

bruh my fuckin' DIP

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:22 pm like the issue with blowing up the shuttle 1 second before EORG or talking about something really funny the clown did in OOC even if it doesn't have an effect

If you permaban someone for these kinds of things on their first admin intervention regarding the issue, you're insane.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:22 pm we can't always let things slip by if they're entirely against the social contract of the game. We can't allow any instances of discussing in-round information not to be seen as metacomming simply because it "technically was okay".

The rules exist solely as a guideline to ensure that the game stays fair and fun for the people playing it. We are not a court of law - and there's no excuse for why you can't apply "no harm, no foul" when applicable - especially in cases like this where the round information was virtually useless and was not acted on, and very clearly not intended to be acted on.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:22 pm The main issue is that it was done on a private server away from administration with the intent to provide information to the round that others would otherwise have no way of learning.

The main issue is that there's no nuance to your assessment of this particular ban. If I took a picture of a floor tile in-round and posted it to tg-general, would I be as equally culpable of what you call 'metacomming'? The obvious answer here is no, because to actually metacomm you have to convey some kind of information in the first place.

So I raise you this - what the hell do you think this 13thsky person was trying to convey here? Station announcements are visible to everyone, so how is that an 'unfair advantage' in the first place? The second image is equally as innocuous - do you really expect everyone to buy that by posting that screenshot 13thsky was telling all their metafriends 'hey guys, come out to this specific room in this specific ruin way out in space 2 minutes before roundend!' the answer here is clear too... they were just posting a picture of a fucking cat because they thought it was cute.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:22 pm During the investigations we saw this behaviour repeated multiple times and nobody stopped to think "hm maybe we should just always stop this, or get people who are doing this out of the discord."

Why are you taking into account the actions of other people when determining the ban length of one specific player? Could it be that sky13th had no change of conscience moment because these screenshots are over 9 months old and did not fucking matter in the grand scheme of things?

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:22 pm EDIT: And nobody just talked to an admin and self-reported, which I can easily see as being a "drop to a note and forget about it" situation. If something reaches the point where a massive investigation needs to have done, then it's too late.

I can promise you, in the case of this specific ban, the only people that seem to genuinely care or even remember these screenshots are you.

Clumping all these people together at once was a bad move. If you're too harsh to one of them, it raises the question of whether or not you guys are going too far for the rest of them as well - undermines the entire thing. Very disappointed at the lack of situational judgement these new headmins seem to be exhibiting out of the gate. Lost some respect and trust from me today.

I disagree with this one in particular in a major way yo.

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:25 am I disagree with this one in particular in a major way yo.

Makes you wonder how many other of these bans were truly justified

I guess I'm going to be the contrarian and despite the fact that I didn't want chesify as headmin due to their endorsement of the mosin nagant removal, I don't see what the problem with these bans are. It's really simple to avoid metacomming and furthermore we have a streamer program they could have participated in instead if they wanted their friends to watch. They decided to go outside the server's system instead and if some of you are saying it doesn't seem so bad, well maybe that's because it was a ban issued recently instead of one year from now after this behavior got more and more normalized when they realized they could get away with it.
The player opposition to the ban seems kind of suspect actually. Perhaps there's more of these metacomm servers out there?
Chesify redemption arc?

As one of the admins who saw it happen when it went down, I can say that at least one of them heavily justified a permaban.

13thsky's I have no opinion of, but this wasn't just Cheshify's or even the new headmin team's sole decision, the old headmin team had a say.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:32 am The player opposition to the ban seems kind of suspect actually. Perhaps there's more of these metacomm servers out there?

this is the most insane post i've read in months

I agree with this ban and I care immensely that I am not playing with a bunch of metagamers. I consider the average /tg/ player to be strongly against the practice.
I will now dump conceptual erosion on this conversation by insinuating that heavy resistance to the metagang bunkerbusting is due to participation in such activities.
Pepper is so metacomming i think?

motherfuckers stop posting what im about to post i am a human being with original thoughts see?
https://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/f6 ... 000d22d923

Capsandi wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:37 am snip

this is the most insane post i've read in seconds

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:35 am

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:32 am The player opposition to the ban seems kind of suspect actually. Perhaps there's more of these metacomm servers out there?

this is the most insane post i've read in months

A manuel felinid metagang got permabanned for metacomming and you're laughing? You're laughing!

The headmin candidate who campaigned on removing felinids from the game is upset that felinids got removed from the game.
Honestly this is hurting the integrity of headmin candidate statements immensely, thank fuck nobody listened to my previous endorsement of iwishforducks.

you may find that i have virtues that extend deeper than "i dont like this species on ss13"

Yeah apparently sharing information during an ongoing round is righteous to you. What a joke.

I wonder if the manuel discord counts as a metagang discord...
It feels so official these days.

USE THE GODDAMN CHARACTER LORE THREADS THEY ARE AVAILABLE TO MAKE FOR A REASON. WANT TO RP SENDING MAIL TO MY CHARACTER'S APARTMENT? GO AHEAD. THAT IS WHAT ITS FOR.
We scitzo post in our lore threads about our characters and it is great. Why the heck would we need to do it anywhere else?

I'm in awe at how shit this title is like at least base the joke off thug shaker general leak
Also this is peanut title posting not polcon posting do not reply to this unless in a capacity to comment on the art of title formulation

It would appear that my friend has PM'd me in distress, asking for assistance getting admin attention involving an issue involving an ongoing round. it may be midnight, but I will help them of my own volition. I will just ensure that I strictly don't use this information in game and just get jannies. Surely they will appreciate my assistance and not use this against me.

I'm just impressed that this thread managed to smoke out the guy whose single platform campaign was removing felinids and revealed them to be a felinid metacomming metagang apologist.

Also pretty telling that pepper as a felinid main is defending this. Doth protest too much.

wait carsh was forum posting this whole time? I never realised they had gone pfp-less. Also y do all pfpless poster usernames start with c

Capsandi wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:31 am wait carsh was forum posting this whole time? I never realised they had gone pfp-less. Also y do all pfpless poster usernames start with c

They took away my avatar of carl from johnny bravo, so I refused to get a new one.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:12 am Also pretty telling that pepper as a felinid main is defending this. Doth protest too much.

omg.. caught red handed

I'm kind of torn because I have a very legalist view of rules. I know (or at least regularly interact ingame) with quite a few of these people, and they have almost always been good players. However, metacomming has always been one of the few "straight to jail" kind of rulebreak = ban from my understanding. IIRC the only other instant ban is even joking about doxing.

Some of the metacomms shown as evidence are extremely minor, to the point that it's kind of like those drug bust publicity photos where you have a bunch of police with guns and armor and their "haul" is a tiny bag of weed and a doobie.

The issue is that so far we've only seen one appeal and it seems to be one of the more weak justifications for a perma appealable bans. As a result it's leading to a lot of guessing and gossip. With admins unintentionally spreading the gossip flames by coming across like saying "Guys some of the other people's metacomming is way worse we've been investigating this for months but we can't show the details yet!!!!!!" I don't think making a post laying all the details out would be a good idea but I don't know if it would be worse than what has currently happened where you have some weaksauce metacomming (but still metacomming, yes.) so it comes across like seven people got banned for a year old metacomm that is super eh in terms of actual metacomming.
DISCLAIMER: I KNOW SEVEN PEOPLE DIDN'T GET BANNED FOR THIS SINGLE INSTANCE OF METACOMMS BUT THAT IS KIND OF HOW IT COMES ACROSS AT A GLANCE AND I'VE SEEN SEVERAL PEOPLE SAY IT LIKE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T CORRECT.

The admins kind of come across as a bit naive if they didn't expect people to talk about seven people (one of them being a headmin candidate from THIS ELECTION, and two decently well-known players) getting perma'd and a discord server getting a through skim through by admins to find instances of metacomms.

This is a good post.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 5:07 am The admins kind of come across as a bit naive if they didn't expect people to talk about seven people (one of them being a headmin candidate from THIS ELECTION, and two decently well-known players) getting perma'd and a discord server getting a through skim through by admins to find instances of metacomms.

But I am quite certain they expected it yes. I don't think we are particularly bothered by people talking about things that happen.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:55 pm We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

The problem is it doesn't look like it. This is a HUGE action, and having it come immediately after you get into power puts a lot more scrutiny on things. And when the first thing seen on the player-side is "Here's some screenshots from when you were brand new to the game. One of them is just them hoping that you're not trying to rile up all the antags into going kill heavy (after all, remember! Objectives ARE Optional), and the other is them excitedly showing off something cute that makes them happy. Something minutes before the end of the round, out in the depths of space. As Pepper said, they showed about as much information as taking a screenshot of a pure grey floortile.

The optics of it are awful, and honestly it's kinda a little heart-wrenching to me to imagine someone excitedly showing off "hey look at this really cute thing I found! " when they were new to the game getting fucking slamdunked like that.

Even in this thread, you guys talk about how the sanctity of the round is important and that's why metacomming is bad, and yeah. Absolutely, you're right. But this wasn't that. And when the only evidence you can show off is something that harmless, it looks really bad and it makes me kinda sad.

Part of me hopes there's more to it. Because I want it to be justified so I can stop feeling like this.

But the other part of me hopes there isn't. And that you'll realize this was fuckin' harmless, and just give them a slap on the wrist. Sometimes you don't need the entire book. Sometimes a scare'll do the job just fine.

This is stupid. Try to come up with a bright line test for metacomming at which point it becomes bannable if the act of metacomming itself isn't the offense. Someone ahelps about it? Someone round removes a person? Someone hangs out in the vague area they identify the metacommer as being present at so they can watch their back?
There isn't a rule you cane come up, a line you can draw. Metacomming makes the game worse in a lot of small, subtle ways, and doesn't necessarily leave smoking guns, and that's honestly why I understand the zero tolerance for it.
Not to mention the admins made a big carveout to circumvent metacomm rule violations for all you exhibitionists out there, and that's covered under streaming. But I guess that's too much effort. You have to write one whole post, set up a streaming account, and ping the admins each time you start a session. You also have to follow some rules concerning antag preferences and ghost setting. Oh god, what a police state. Let's just fuckin wildcat on our own private discord and share screenshots without waiting 30 minutes for the round to end. After all, unless you can prove your metacomming contributed to a murderboning incident you morally don't deserve to eat a ban.

chill.

These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

You should not share information from ongoing rounds that's all.

Posting a screenshot in tg gen can get you punished so why should this be any different because it's on a private server.

No no, you don't get it. A player sharing a screenshot of a cat in an isolated area while the round is still going can lead to the defeat of the round's antags. We cannot possibly tolerate this sort of metacomming, blacklist them!

Guys the cat was an antag

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

You should not share information from ongoing rounds that's all.

Posting a screenshot in tg gen can get you punished so why should this be any different because it's on a private server.

If someone metacommed in tg-gen while people are talking, should all of those people be banned?

To quote Xemo,

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:47 am i agree that most people should have given the discord a general sniff-test and gotten the hell out of there immediately, but i don't want to damn people on the basis of just wanting to have friends. we're all still human and get the good brain chemicals from sharing spaces of people that think in similar ways to us.

Sidenote,

Shellton(Mario) wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:34 am Guys the cat was an antag

fuck you're so true

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:35 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

You should not share information from ongoing rounds that's all.

Posting a screenshot in tg gen can get you punished so why should this be any different because it's on a private server.

If someone metacommed in tg-gen while people are talking, should all of those people be banned?

To quote Xemo,

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:47 am i agree that most people should have given the discord a general sniff-test and gotten the hell out of there immediately, but i don't want to damn people on the basis of just wanting to have friends. we're all still human and get the good brain chemicals from sharing spaces of people that think in similar ways to us.

Sidenote,

Shellton(Mario) wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:34 am Guys the cat was an antag

fuck you're so true

It's never consistent on tg gen it's a one and done because they get in a lot of trouble

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:44 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:35 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

You should not share information from ongoing rounds that's all.

Posting a screenshot in tg gen can get you punished so why should this be any different because it's on a private server.

If someone metacommed in tg-gen while people are talking, should all of those people be banned?

It's never consistent on tg gen it's a one and done because they get in a lot of trouble

No, no. Let's say you and I are chatting in TG-Gen while also in game, we're talking about Starsector or something, and Vekter comes in and posts a screenshot from the current round while we're talking. Should we be banned, too?

Because that's basically what this part is saying

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

Or at least, so I'm reading it.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:22 am i feel like maybe a better way to handle it though would have been to sit everyone down, get everyone to publicly apologize, and then give them all 6 month bans or something as a show of some kind of punishment.

there is no win from this I suppose.

In a way, a 6 month ban may as well be a permaban for how long we generally recommend people take time either on other servers or from playing the game to appeal those bans, depending on circumstances. Some people in this sting have track records that make the prospect of re-offense unfortunately high. It's probably for the best they take a break.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:48 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:44 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:35 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

You should not share information from ongoing rounds that's all.

Posting a screenshot in tg gen can get you punished so why should this be any different because it's on a private server.

If someone metacommed in tg-gen while people are talking, should all of those people be banned?

It's never consistent on tg gen it's a one and done because they get in a lot of trouble

No, no. Let's say you and I are chatting in TG-Gen while also in game, we're talking about Starsector or something, and Vekter comes in and posts a screenshot from the current round while we're talking. Should we be banned, too?

Because that's basically what this part is saying

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am These people took part in the discord where stuff about rounds was thrown around rlly. I think that's the baseline issue people are missing. Sure their metacoms were minor but they were active around conversation with more stuff whilst playing in the round. Not commenting directly on it whilst still reading it is shitty.

Or at least, so I'm reading it.

If we were playing tgstation 13 and someone was posting information in the channel. We were talking around it so we had obviously seen it. We are now playing the game with meta knowledge. This happening consistently and us not doing anything is kinda a lol....

Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:55 pm We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:03 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 6:16 am Some people defo made an effort to go yo don't do this shit guys but it only happened a couple of times and they just got ignored rlly because of how much it happened. (Their punishment wad less severe)

I'm just gonna point at what Xemo said, that I mentioned in the first one you replied to, because I really can't agree with punishing people just for being there. But also...

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:55 pm We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Not rlly ? There were 17 people or smth not 17 bans