/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

am i insane for this

Bmon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:08 am

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:20 am I think that is the wrong mindset to approach the dynamic of admin. They're not a series of hammers to apply when necessary, they're guideposts to help demonstrate and coach players towards server-healthy decisions, and help foster a more enjoyable experience for everyone 'fairly'.

They're written and encouraged to be used in a way that your opinion on what could make things better, as an admin, is equally as valid as the literal written rule. So long as it doesn't directly contradict the spirit of the rule, and so long as you place yourself in the mindset of the player in as good faith an interpretation as possible, it doesn't have to be a legal battle just to tell someone not to go around remove peoples legs for fun.

Though they are a defense for players to argue in their own favour as well. Part of the role is mediation, after all. You have to remember that people may not necessarily think they overstepped a boundary.

I do not think a stricter application of the rules will help us. It may well make the rules lawyering issue worse, and may discourage improvisation.

if it's not stricter enforcement how are other MRP servers facilitating a higher standard of roleplay? I mostly believe it is admin enforcement but I am open to hearing another opinion.

Goon and the some of the rest don't have stricter enforcement, they have more random, arbitrary, and unpredictable enforcement that creates a culture of fear that causes people to over correct on trying to not run afoul of their rules and admins. Where as we use rules and admin interactions as a corrective/teaching/coaching force, they use rules and admin interactions as a pruning or curating force to remove people often on some of their first offenses for failing the knowledge check of being able to mind read how the admins view things.

/tg/Station was originally created by people who were sick of goon's arbitrary vibe/idon'tlikeyou based enforcement of the """rules""" where somebody acting in good faith had very little way of knowing if doing any given action would get them banned. Its why we have the highest standards of admin conduct and why we have so little drama that leaves the community and stinks up the digg.

Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:56 am I think ive seen every conversation topic or mrp to lrp at this point I wanna blow my brains out over this conversation.

Gupta you know you don't have to respond to a thread if you have nothing to add right

I have been roleplaying to a higher standard than needed for a long time in Manuel. I have had fun. There are ups, and downs, and it really depends on the ratio of LRP players and higher RP players.

I got used to the LRP players and have been focusing on the higher RP players.
But it is very easy for me to tell when a person is currently speaking as a character or not. The ones that lower the Manuel gameplay experience in my opinions usually are people that are trying to play a video game more than anything
They focus on pure gameplay, themselves, and dont talk to people much. When they do, they tend to be argumentative.
For example: Oh, there is no power because I am charging 3 cells at once constantly and using 3MW? Where is my power?? I will now go and tell them how to fix it in detail with the most harsh tone possible!! Woo hoo that's a great way to give engineering a great experience! Huh? The SM is not making the 3 MW that the cell chargers are taking? Pah! Just make it make more power!! Do these steps because I know better than you tee hee!

Hearing stuff like that (I was AI) pisses me off.
Yes, I know it's in the rules, yes I know I don't have to listen but it drives me up the wall.
I try not to engage but man it can be hard sometimes.

Donglesplonge wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:30 pm

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:40 pm I’d play more on Manuel but everytime I do start playing more I rejoin the manueldiscord and then I leave the discord and stop playing Manuel for a bit. How is it that a community that I’ve had a lot of genuine fun with when I play can produce a place that just has bullying as something acceptable. Its a shame too because I think I’d play a lot more MRP if I could engage more with the community outside of the game in an actual positive space.

THATS WHAT I'M SAYIN!!!!!!!!

i'll take a check in the mail for royalties its 5 dollars

At least the tgstation mrp channel is getting more active!

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 7:13 pm

Jonathan Gupta wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:56 am I think ive seen every conversation topic or mrp to lrp at this point I wanna blow my brains out over this conversation.

Gupta you know you don't have to respond to a thread if you have nothing to add right

It states the opposite in my contract.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 6:26 pm

Bmon wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:08 am if it's not stricter enforcement how are other MRP servers facilitating a higher standard of roleplay? I mostly believe it is admin enforcement but I am open to hearing another opinion.

Goon and the some of the rest don't have stricter enforcement, they have more random, arbitrary, and unpredictable enforcement that creates a culture of fear that causes people to over correct on trying to not run afoul of their rules and admins. Where as we use rules and admin interactions as a corrective/teaching/coaching force, they use rules and admin interactions as a pruning or curating force to remove people often on some of their first offenses for failing the knowledge check of being able to mind read how the admins view things.

/tg/Station was originally created by people who were sick of goon's arbitrary vibe/idon'tlikeyou based enforcement of the """rules""" where somebody acting in good faith had very little way of knowing if doing any given action would get them banned. Its why we have the highest standards of admin conduct and why we have so little drama that leaves the community and stinks up the digg.

Even if you believe Goon/others enforce their rules arbitrarily and promote a culture of fear, I don't think you can deny that level enforcement leads to a higher standard of roleplay on their servers. You're right about other MRP servers using admin interactions less as a tool to teach and more as a tool to curate players— I think that's probably the shittest thing about those servers... but I believe that there's a middle ground between admins banning people without even trying to teach them and giving admins more authority to curtail behaviour that is negatively impacting the overall quality of roleplay.

Bmon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:11 am Even if you believe Goon/others enforce their rules arbitrarily and promote a culture of fear, I don't think you can deny that level enforcement leads to a higher standard of roleplay on their servers. You're right about other MRP servers using admin interactions less as a tool to teach and more as a tool to curate players— I think that's probably the shittest thing about those servers... but I believe that there's a middle ground between admins banning people without even trying to teach them and giving admins more authority to curtail behaviour that is negatively impacting the overall quality of roleplay.

In all fairness, bmon, you have that authority already. But I don't believe what you are arguing for is reasonably possible to achieve via a middleground approach. Without a very strict interpretation that would need to be expressed by every admin and applied exactly the same way, it will only be more confusing for the player to have two admins applying the same rules in a more strict but maybe differing interpretations. Confusion about what is allowed tends to results in what MSO already pointed out; the lack of engagement and very reserved playstyle. A very superficial playstyle, I think. I've seen some servers attempt at that higher roleplay standard really crumble when it comes to handling conflict consistently. The nature of conflict is that sometimes emotions flare; and that can end up with admins incidentally pushing a low conflict enforcement simply to stop that from happening, because the players involved have differing expectations of what conflict should be like in those environments.

The open-ended nature of the rules is also a safeguard against admin interpretation being the only meaningful factor in admin/player discussions. And why players are able to give a differing opinion of a rule from an admin as a defense in, say, an appeal or tickets. They're a part of the conversation too, and they have the right to a second opinion in our very conversational based mediation process.

I value players feeling empowered to argue in favour of their actions and decisions, and I simply can't understand why admins should be more focused on curation than teaching. We want people here and we want them to enjoy themselves, and they don't have to engage too strongly with that roleplay aspect beyond the bare minimum as long as it isn't at the expense of those who do. The vast majority of players manage this perfectly fine, and the rest just need instructing.

the middle ground is also different to everyone. it's why i hold discussions in such high regard - i think in a space like this they're more important in figuring out issues. when rules are applied as-written, it's probably the biggest hammer in the toolbox. like all tools sometimes it's entirely necessary. it's just not suitable for everything.

our game has such a vast, VAST interpretation on what "good roleplay" is like. but we can only enforce a sort of roleplay overton window to it in order to get the "vibe" right. the further you stray from the "intended" window of interaction, then the more you will have to prove that you had good reasons to be doing so. it is not really a binary thing, or at least when things are going correctly it shouldn't be. we can call this the dendyton window.

a lot of my headspace changed when i went from imagining running this sort of community like a model UN larp and more like just running a game store for people. it is an internet community centre where we allow people to participate in our flavour of the spaceman tabletop game. like any good DM, you uphold the rules with the ultimate goal of providing a fair game while bending and flexing them whenever possible to provide the players with a personalized and meaningful creative space.

like others have said, we actually have very little control over how players collectively want to behave. we cannot crack a whip and have everyone fall in line, or lean over, snatch the keyboard and play the game for them. attempts at this sort of enforcement damages trust in our ability to be fair mediators. we have to encourage a certain mindset and then hope players understand why that mindset makes for good rounds of ss13 so they will support it. in doing so we need to be willing to show just as much understanding in return.

MRP kind of has this problem where it doesn't really give people much of an incentive to put a lot of effort into what they do.

Prime example I saw last night was when a rat king took over disposals and ended up picking off some officers that barged in solo, but the rat dragged them towards the nearest paramedic so they could be brought back. Captain and the QM end up talking to it and the RK explains it'll only attack defensively. Captain doesn't see it as a problem and just leaves it be...

Then one of the sec offs rushes in with dual lasers and kills the rat instantly. Because unga valid. Neither side did anything rule breaking but obviously one was making an attempt to play things out while the other just wanted to kill a valid.

And that's kind of the crux of the issue, most of MRP are either people who enjoy rp but get burned by situations like that constantly or are completely uninterested and just wanna play the game on a server with more rules. Which leads to a lot of the roleplay focused players gravitating towards each other and immediately getting accused of being part of X metagang.

There's no real easy method to fix the issue that won't alienate a whole bunch of people

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=36074

Are we just gonna keep on using this thread as the peanut for this?

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:01 pm viewtopic.php?f=33&t=36074

Are we just gonna keep on using this thread as the peanut for this?

100% chance this gets closed with no action being taken. Not that I disagree with the thinking, per say.

BonChoi wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:34 pm

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:01 pm viewtopic.php?f=33&t=36074

Are we just gonna keep on using this thread as the peanut for this?

100% chance this gets closed with no action being taken. Not that I disagree with the thinking, per say.

Im sure Dendy and Timber have essays ready to deploy at a moments notice about how this is bad or good

Me when I have a brilliant idea to finally get more people to play on (X SERVER) instead of (Y SERVER)

even if we cant make bagil mrp, culling mannys silent validhunters and tiders would be amazing

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:41 pm

BonChoi wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:34 pm

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:01 pm viewtopic.php?f=33&t=36074

Are we just gonna keep on using this thread as the peanut for this?

100% chance this gets closed with no action being taken. Not that I disagree with the thinking, per say.

Im sure Dendy and Timber have essays ready to deploy at a moments notice about how this is bad or good

Essay deployed.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:51 pm

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:41 pm

BonChoi wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:34 pm

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:01 pm viewtopic.php?f=33&t=36074

Are we just gonna keep on using this thread as the peanut for this?

100% chance this gets closed with no action being taken. Not that I disagree with the thinking, per say.

Im sure Dendy and Timber have essays ready to deploy at a moments notice about how this is bad or good

Essay deployed.

tldr yes or no

Bmon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:11 am Even if you believe Goon/others enforce their rules arbitrarily and promote a culture of fear, I don't think you can deny that level enforcement leads to a higher standard of roleplay on their servers. You're right about other MRP servers using admin interactions less as a tool to teach and more as a tool to curate players— I think that's probably the shittest thing about those servers... but I believe that there's a middle ground between admins banning people without even trying to teach them and giving admins more authority to curtail behaviour that is negatively impacting the overall quality of roleplay.

I've admin'd on a downstream before and I don't...really agree at all, actually. Everyone has their own view on what "roleplay" is, and what I saw on the player-side was people who believed that roleplay began and ended at the Text Box getting upset that people mixed mechanics in with their roleplay in a reasonable, in-character method (an antag kept using Antag Powers to break out of handcuffs consistently, and his specific antag type couldn't be killed for long, imagine a Changeling without the Shapeshifting, for levels of Uncontainability, and complained that he got "no RP round removed" when Sec tossed him in a cremator), and on the Admin Side, I saw the rules being used as a cudgel against people that the admin team didn't like. They'd say you did something, and then when the logs came out and it turned out you didn't, "well, you did XYZ instead actually, which is bad, so you are being banned". I saw admins outright cheering when they got the excuse to pull the trigger on players, and in one case I saw two admins outright laughing when a player was begging not to be permabanned for something, because they HAD been genuinely trying their best to improve (and their record showed a notable improvement). I genuinely believe TG's approach is for the best, because the RP quality wasn't that much higher, just much more restrictive on style, while also ensuring that treatment is (usually) fair.

On a side note, for a while, I disagreed with Timber's (it was his, right?) approach to the Rules Rewrite not including anything related to RP, but after thinking about it, I think it's for the best. While RP Standards are good to maintain to deal with the trolls who don't want to or care about RP, there comes the point where you'll catch people who are just shit at it but are trying their best to get into it. And the only solution to the problem that I can come up with is a Code Issue (having a little section on the character creator where you give somewhat of a description of the character, as a Coward who runs up to a Changeling and calls him bitchmade and challenges him to a 1v1 clearly isn't trying).

mrrp mrrp HSSS BACK AWAY I AM FERAL

The bunnies that are coded ingame go mrrrp

Its a complete crapshoot. Sometimes I have a good round and can wander into roleplay situations. Other times it caps out at being batoned by an assistant and bag checked because there is a traitor somewhere.

I don't like talking about things on discord so how about things are talked about here instead.

i hope the manuelcord is ready for all of its new members

so a server died because people followed the pop, so lets try to split half the people from one server and have two medium pop servers rather than one highpop server. Am I getting this right?

yeah

yeah

mwuahahahahaha

All according to plan...
It won't be long now.

I don't think this idea will work at all.

It would cause the people that are dedicated to Sybil to leave, and the people in Manuel will continue to keep following pop.

I bet the low pop was caused by having those walls up for so long. They are down again, yeah? Back on the hub?

I never check on other servers besides manuel, but I thought sybil was doing decently fine?? Only reason why MSO would want to do this is if Manuel hits high pop so much that it'd be better to split it into another server (which makes sense) but again, I thought sybil had an active playerbase, so why make SYBIL mrp???? Won't a lot of people be pissed???? I dont get it

Weighted random killed Sybil, lol

TheSmallBlue wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:09 am I never check on other servers besides manuel, but I thought sybil was doing decently fine?? Only reason why MSO would want to do this is if Manuel hits high pop so much that it'd be better to split it into another server (which makes sense) but again, I thought sybil had an active playerbase, so why make SYBIL mrp???? Won't a lot of people be pissed???? I dont get it

The last time sybil saw this big of a dip, was when we got ddosed for a whole ass month.

i see no tangible difference between /tg/ mrp and lrp except that there are more rules in the rulebook but i have never read the rulebook and never fucking will

okay so my honest opinion on making sybil mrp: its stupid people arent going to manuel because they want mrp (if they were I WOULD BE HAVING A LOT MORE RP!!) they just do it because sybil has lowpop and manuel has higher pop..... ive heard this multiple times from many people lmao

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 2:32 am i see no tangible difference between /tg/ mrp and lrp except that there are more rules in the rulebook but i have never read the rulebook and never fucking will

ALso i dont think this is such a bad thing i should add! i like how players are playing at the moment, at least in the rounds ive been playing. cant recall anyone who would wordlessly murderhobo, can only recall one case of metafriends piggybacking each other all round. very respectable middleground from the playerbase and i dont know how you guys got it that way but its pretty good!

The constant bitching evens out

Are we back?

Did threatening to make sybil mrp save it?

Sybil players are industrious college students who were busy with finals so couldnt play as much
Manuel pop stayed high because they (Read: the americans in particular) are all middle schoolers who did not have to worry about such things

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:58 pm Sybil players are industrious college students who were busy with finals so couldnt play as much
Manuel pop stayed high because they (Read: the americans in particular) are all middle schoolers who did not have to worry about such things

at any time, at least 50% of tgs population are either middle schoolers or college students
the other 50% are admins nearing their 30's

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:47 pm
Are we back?

Did threatening to make sybil mrp save it?

It's so jover

ah, yes, maia is going for that righteous indignation role play, its a very good role play, studies have shown.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:47 pm

Are we back?

Did threatening to make sybil mrp save it?

If there's one thing LRP values, it's sticking it to the MRP players.

Jokes aside, is there any corelation between Sybil dipping and that one medieval server opening up? I seem to recall Manuel dipping for a few weeks when that one SCP server was in its prime before normalizing. Granted, it probably only lost 15-20~ish people as opposed to Sybil being a ghost town.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:35 pm ah, yes, maia is going for that righteous indignation role play, its a very good role play, studies have shown.

/me tries to tie your shoes together (roll for initiative)

i gotta convince oranges to add the MEKA borg skins to tgstation thatll improve every servers pop

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:26 pm i gotta convince oranges to add the MEKA borg skins to tgstation thatll improve every servers pop

you will not turn this server into skyrat

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:49 pm If there's one thing LRP values, it's sticking it to the MRP players.

Jokes aside, is there any corelation between Sybil dipping and that one medieval server opening up? I seem to recall Manuel dipping for a few weeks when that one SCP server was in its prime before normalizing. Granted, it probably only lost 15-20~ish people as opposed to Sybil being a ghost town.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 2:35 pm ah, yes, maia is going for that righteous indignation role play, its a very good role play, studies have shown.

/me tries to tie your shoes together (roll for initiative)

imo it's a combination of this and players who want to be on a full server going to manuel instead when they look at the server page and see that one server has 35~ and one has 70.

it's why last week i was talking about the culture being "tested", because i believe that we shouldn't view players as belonging to whatever rp designation and not being able to explore more of the game's ideas and capabilities. there will have to be some patience when the tides shift and people move around. i don't think admins should stop enforcing the rp rules as intended, but i also think that standards of rp are not sacred. manuel players will have to impart ideas and experiences to these new non-manuel regulars and vice versa. we gain new blood this way and people find new ways of enjoying the game with new people. seeing them as outsiders who are a threat to the sacred golden bull of rp is silly.

Timonk wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:33 pm you will not turn this server into skyrat

literally just be normal about the tall robots its that easy
theyre good sprites its just that Some People cant behave around em

i dont like humanoid cyborgs i want them to be funny objects

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 11:23 pm

Timonk wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 3:33 pm you will not turn this server into skyrat

literally just be normal about the tall robots its that easy
theyre good sprites its just that Some People cant behave around em

You will not tread on my right to not bear ERP borgs on MY server.

Brb going to cause problems to make MSO's point invalid

Timonk wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 11:30 pm You will not tread on my right to not bear ERP borgs on MY server.

nothing abt em's erp borgs bro theyre just tall robots

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 11:54 pm

Timonk wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2024 11:30 pm You will not tread on my right to not bear ERP borgs on MY server.

nothing abt em's erp borgs bro
robor.PNG

theyre just tall robots

LOOK AT THE THIGHS. THATS LIKE............. ATOMIC HEART???

More people to join the lore thread cabal in the manuelcord is always better.

I want to see more active lore threads with lore happening in them