/tg/Station 13

why do some admins not understanding information scarcity
that the cultist was an albino isn't something the noted guy needs to know or should even have to worry about. the guy operated under the assumption that it was from blood loss and its creating these situations that those traits exist and give you points to spend on other stuff in the first place

While I am not a big fan of sec getting noted, I can agree that wearing a gasmask, looking pale, having a minor bruising or asking for additional access in reasonable quantities is not grounds for a search, unless there is a "crisis" like confirmed cult presence on the station.

Also this "nword with a soft double g" is throwing random shade on me for no reason, since I have never done random/hunch searches.

At the end of the day finding a probable cause is not that hard - read the space law, see people breaking the law, search. Dude/dudette is covered in blood and its not the chef in the kitchen? Search.

Alternatively pick the trait that gives you hallucinations, hallucinate esword sound, search.

im not even contesting the note just the "but he was an albino!", that doesnt matter and the player has no need to know it and no reason to worry about it. all the feedback he gets is "pale skin" and if he draws the conclusion "blood loss" then thats design as intended, it caused paranoia in the player. at least in name this is still a paranoia-laden game

systematic racism on albinos

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:systematic racism on albinos

Sir, step aside, you are too white! Time to pay for your privilege.

>give up my antag to random ghost
>they immediately get randomly fucking obliterated from the get-go
Wew
Tbh, I'm glad it's not only my experience as, well, me.

I was the player, by the by. Ive literally 0 idea how I took damage. Logs dont have it shown anywhere. It wasnt from prepping stuns or anything since I hadnt even done that yet

Two powergamers meet at HoP line.
"You are a cultist!" Says the first one.
"No, I'm an admin running for headmin!" replies the other.

Much fun ensues.

What makes me love this game more is having somewhere where i can discuss this situation without being hounded by half the ooc chat, i can understand why they did but i was never more certain of my decision in that instance and i felt i had enough evidence making the arrest (i wasnt in any mood to let cult run over 2 man sec team).

So thanks to all the people behind the game and sorry for badmouthing krokodil (your honestly my favourite player <3)

This type of powergaming used to be a lot more common back in the day. It wasn't fun to be on the receiving end of. Antags create action which leads to exciting rounds and there will be none if you kill them in their infancy. Having a hunch is one thing but he should've just kept an eye on the guy and arrested him when the guy committed a crime or did something to indicate he was cult. Not very fun either but you can't expect sec to play dumb until the cult gain enough strength to kill them.

SO this guy searches a suspicious person on terry, was proven right, and now we gotta put a note on him because the person was not suspicious enough? Unfun behavior? Well shit, my deepest apologies to all the antags getting stopped from making mincemeat out of uninvolved crewmembers, didn't realize how much damage police work does to their fun. If I see a security officer take down one of these guys, I'll make sure to punch the officer to death and offer myself as a sacrifice to the antag, because their fun is more important than mine.

cacogen wrote:This type of powergaming used to be a lot more common back in the day. It wasn't fun to be on the receiving end of. Antags create action which leads to exciting rounds and there will be none if you kill them in their infancy. Having a hunch is one thing but he should've just kept an eye on the guy and arrested him when the guy committed a crime or did something to indicate he was cult. Not very fun either but you can't expect sec to play dumb until the cult gain enough strength to kill them.

you mean kept an eye on him and then get dabbed on by the red hand of gg no re in maint

What if traitors had a traitor implant that pinged sec every 30 seconds with their coordinates?

Being a non-antag unironically is offering yourself up as cannon fodder to antags with the expectation they'll do the same when it's your turn. I keep saying the grindy jobs are in direct conflict with antags from a game design point of view but I don't think anyone agrees or cares

Having 7 points of brute damage and a gas mask 5 min into the round is not grounds for a search.

That kind of gameplay just makes the game unfun for both sides by either turning the round into a greenshift or requiring antags to choose a loud playstyle over a stealth playstyle.

Kryson wrote:Having 7 points of brute damage and a gas mask 5 min into the round is not grounds for a search.

That kind of gameplay just makes the game unfun for both sides by either turning the round into a greenshift or requiring antags to choose a loud playstyle over a stealth playstyle.

i mean you could just heal your bruises if youre going stealth cult
not difficult

I don't even honestly know what's the status of random searches at this moment. It used to be that technically these were tied to red alert. Did anyone really care? No, but there was at elast that. I have no idea what policy says about it atm.
Imho this is kinda shitty ground to randomsearch anyone tbh. Basically everyone wears some mask and has brute at any given moment. Not that I think player in question should be punished for that either really.

imagine if you could ahelp and get someone noted for ending your round in 5 minutes by walking up and balancestunning you and killing you with a cult dagger

Since when is powergaming noted in LRP? Sec officers and really, any crewmember acting by what they believe is common. Maybe they're paranoid or heard someone call out a name wrongly, so they go and stun/reduce the suspect and search them. If they find suspicious things on them great, if not they just let them go.

It would have been different if the officer thought they were cult and started shooting lethals at them, but they only stunned+restrained them. Dumb note

Latest take on random searches is here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ch#p566820

By "late into cult round" it can safely be assumed once the cult has been confirmed beyond the shadow of a doubt, not when they literally have eyes or halos.

LRP or not, we definitely want to avoid advanced autism like - dorms 4 with pda in hand? Better shove and search, because traitor uplink and buying traitor items is a thing. Taking pod instead of shuttle? Gotta search because probably traitor and so on.

We literally have people not getting noted or anything after stunning the captain on maints in confirmed cult round as sec officer.

Makes you think.

Agux909 wrote:We literally have people not getting noted or anything after stunning the captain on maints in confirmed cult round as sec officer.

Makes you think.

hows this note worthy

Istoprocent1 wrote:Latest take on random searches is here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ch#p566820

By "late into cult round" it can safely be assumed once the cult has been confirmed beyond the shadow of a doubt, not when they literally have eyes or halos.

LRP or not, we definitely want to avoid advanced autism like - dorms 4 with pda in hand? Better shove and search, because traitor uplink and buying traitor items is a thing. Taking pod instead of shuttle? Gotta search because probably traitor and so on.

This policy does not apply here because it was not a random search, fatal even specifically mentions that the note does not call it a random search in the note appeal. I have never done random searches, the cultie got found because to me they were screaming cult in their actions and appearance.

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:

Agux909 wrote:We literally have people not getting noted or anything after stunning the captain on maints in confirmed cult round as sec officer.

Makes you think.

hows this note worthy

exactly

To be compeltely honest with you, having no stake in it whatsoever?
That something as ubiquitous as "they wore a gasmask and had trace brute damage" qualifies for legit hunch is really strange to me. That's easily characterstic you can ascribe to majority of population of any given shift. Just saying.

The policy post was for omni who wasn't sure the latest take on random searches (ie. searches without a probable cause).

The captain and secman situation ended with captain dying if I recall correctly and that was something that made people upset. It was one of those things where one couldn't feasibly forsee the events unfold - on one hand sec shouldn't be stunning randomly, on the other hand most of the beatings don't fall from the sky either. So who knows.

if there were mentions of cult prior (by anyone else) to this it would be fine to search on minimal suspicion but

>Your side of the story: I was playing Sec officer and early on into the round i got suspicious of cult because of multiple people with gas masks wandering the halls, i even mentioned it on the sec chat

like yeah if you hid in a plant outside dorms of course you ll find antags going in and out of dorms but thats a mechanical problem which its duct taped with a rule to prevent this kind of "metagaming" so understand the rule and understand that if someone screams cult, or you find a 100% clue its ok and if you think its cult only because you know how the gamemode works its not ok

like for example, if i see krok with sunglasses it can only mean he is a contractor, because krok doesnt tide (he is a sec simp) so he has no innate reason to get anti sec gear as not antag, but this is just because a flawed mechanic that there is no other reason to wear stylish sunglasses, so i m gonna wait for him to slip and get outed by someone before unloading the shotgun on him

man you all need to shut the fuck up person appealing the note said it was fair after a further explanation.

"pale", "gas mask" and "minor bruising" is not probable cause for a search 5 minutes into the round, and you should hate yourself if you ever did that

Timonk wrote:"pale", "gas mask" and "minor bruising" is not probable cause for a search 5 minutes into the round, and you should hate yourself if you ever did that

You forgot being in hopline asking for additional access on a full shift but yeah i hate myself for trying to play good sec and protect the station, i guess i have to quit ever playing sec because my intentions are clearly bad and antifun for the sacred antag role. you helmet

Instead of telling me im wrong and how to feel why dont you instead tell me why im wrong, this post just makes you look like youve come from a youtube comment section argument where you were stuck in a endless loop of 'no u' and carried the mindset over

This game hinges on hunches and incomplete information.

Officer wasn't sistematically searching every single person on the station until he found an antag, he followed a hunch and managed to search the right person, for reasons in his eyes were enough to warrant the search, in that particular moment. Cultie was just super unlucky and got rule 10d.

BrotherCrow wrote:

Timonk wrote:"pale", "gas mask" and "minor bruising" is not probable cause for a search 5 minutes into the round, and you should hate yourself if you ever did that

You forgot being in hopline asking for additional access on a full shift but yeah i hate myself for trying to play good sec and protect the station, i guess i have to quit ever playing sec because my intentions are clearly bad and antifun for the sacred antag role. you helmet

Instead of telling me im wrong and how to feel why dont you instead tell me why im wrong, this post just makes you look like youve come from a youtube comment section argument where you were stuck in a endless loop of 'no u' and carried the mindset over

no ubecause it makes the game unfun if you're going to random search for suspected cult 5 minutes into the round. We are supposed to have fun and not do a antag discovered speed run any%

I was having fun, why does his fun have priority over mine?

Anyway, bonermaster eloquently addresses this in the 11th reply.

Just noticed you called it a random search when fatalx1 established it wasnt in both the note and note appeal.

BrotherCrow wrote:I was having fun, why does his fun have priority over mine?

Anyway, bonermaster eloquently addresses this in the 11th reply.

No you dont understand as a non antagonist your role is to stand around and wait for the lucky antag players to wordlessly kill you in a manner that you have no chance of preventing or struggling against. Dont like it? Suicide at round start and wait until you get antag, normie.

BrotherCrow wrote:I was having fun, why does his fun have priority over mine?

Anyway, bonermaster eloquently addresses this in the 11th reply.

Why does your fun have priority over mine? Why can't we both just have fun?

Pretty sure the inverse situation, in which cult steamrolled the only 2 sec present in that round with the same or higher level of proficiency/powergaming, wouldn't have been any fun for Brother here either. But that's how it is, sometimes you just lose and it might seem unfair, as with any single game, dwi and don't be a crybaby about it.

Think about the relative power levels of these antagonists. Security start with armor, communications, station backing, disablers, the only effective round start stun, flashbangs, bolas, sunglasses, flashes and a decent amount of access.

A cultist starts with not all that much if they haven't immediately gone loud, and there are three or so cultists to the 5+ security including HoS, Captain and Warden (And HoP if they're validhunting).

My point is that security is overwhelmingly overpowered as a direct force, rivalled only by war ops, and even then war ops don't win more than half the time. The counterbalance to this is that security are restricted by not having access to unrestricted violence, and having to follow additional rules that can make them vulnerable due to having to be careful. They do not need to be able to random search to be effective. In this situation, they should have mentioned over sec comms that X looks a little suspicious, and kept an eye on them. The whole point of a paranoia laden, "who is the bad guy" style game is that the bad guys do often get the element of surprise, and much of the game is balanced around that fact.

This is a situation that is very very close to the line between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, but the above is an explanation for why it's important to maintain that line.

I completely agree with sticky, but this game is inherently asymmetric. You cant go head first into a full security force as any antag (if you could murdeboning would be too commonplace). I was always under the impression it was a cat and mouse game (unless nukies), where the antag has to use guile, cooperation with other antags and layed out plans rather than brute force.

In my situatuon security were outnumbered, the game itself turned out as a good cult round, they summoned and we escaped in the shuttle. If i was stunned and sharded investigating in maints i would balance the ai as a wraith and then proceed to butcher the crew. Offcourse im no oracle but in the moment this crossed my mind and i took the risk

You did nothing wrong

Thanks for the support. Ive said everything i wanted to say here and in the appeal, i'll finally shut up and wait for the headmins decision.

Really needs to be more clearcut guidelines on what crewmembers know. Do our characters know that bruising, eye coverings and blood loss are signs of cult? If so, is searching somebody with these things on blue after the enemy communication is intercepted actually unjustified?

cacogen wrote:Really needs to be more clearcut guidelines on what crewmembers know. Do our characters know that bruising, eye coverings and blood loss are signs of cult? If so, is searching somebody with these things on blue after the enemy communication is intercepted actually unjustified?

Cult wasn't called out at that point. Once cult has been confirmed, it is okay to search people because there is a tangible "crisis", which needs to be stopped.

Hunch - nothing tangible, something out of place.

Example: Gearing up, loitering, unusual clothing choices (engineer wearing black shoes instead of default boots, people wearing gasmasks), unusual wounds, etc

Reasonable Suspicion - combination of things (even benign), which would make a reasonable person think somebody has, is in progress or is about to commit a crime.

Example: Somebody hauling a rad suit around. The act being benign on its own, but there is a moderate chance its going to be used to commit a crime of Grand Theft or Grand Sabotage.

Probable Cause - same as Reasonable Suspicion with it becoming obvious that a crime has most likely been committed.

Example: Somebody being prone on the ground and shaking violently with some burn damage next to an airlock with an opened panel.

Example #2: Somebody hauling a rad suit around earlier or pints on the suit with the nuke core being stolen. (probable cause to search the hauler or anyone who's fibres match)

Beyond that its clear that crime has been committed.

Example: You see somebody doing something that is a no-no by Space Law like an assistant with a spear and so on.

You know everything.
Search and arrest are justified with proof or probable cause.
This arrest and search was not justified because there was no proof nor probable cause.

1 Wearing a gasmask is not a crime, especially in LRP servers. It is so common that it is almost not suspicious.
2 Asking for extended access is not a crime.
3 A roboticist obtaining plasteel is not a crime.
You can always ask people to identify themselves and if cult presence is confirmed you can ask them to show you their eyes as well.

All these justifications were tacked on to the actual scrap of evidence, some brute damage and bloodloss: this is not grounds for a search outside of a full blown witchhunt.
"Why do you look like shit?"
"Am haemophiliac bro"
That's all it should've been.

This rule lawyering is getting fucking annoying. Learn to read the situation and intentions behind the action and to understand the spirit of the rules. You guys listing all these points like tools would make for excellent banbots, jesus christ.

Agux909 wrote:This rule lawyering is getting fucking annoying. Learn to read the situation and intentions behind the action and to understand the spirit of the rules. You guys listing all these points like tools would make for excellent banbots, jesus christ.

Most if not all of us here don't want security to be punished for every minute mistake they may make. There is a general understanding that "hunch" or "reasonable suspicion" based searches are not okay, unless there is a pressing issue such as confirmed cult presence or a hole or two in the station in case people are hunting for bombers.

Best way to go at it is if one sees something suspicious, one reports it over the comms and that way the evidence can be built up.

Good example: "Saw X haul a rad suit."

Bad example: "Saw engineer wear black shoes, might be noslips."

Agux909 wrote:This rule lawyering is getting fucking annoying. Learn to read the situation and intentions behind the action and to understand the spirit of the rules. You guys listing all these points like tools would make for excellent banbots, jesus christ.

The rule lawyering was in reply to cacogen who outright asked for a guideline, cunt.

Now for your grade A projection example:
The actions taken by the officer in question go against the spirit of the game because antagonists by and large need to hold onto their equipment for the greatest majority of the round duration. For this reason, you are not allowed to search any person without a a good enough reason, so that traitors can have the initiative and set the round's conflict in motion. The officer not only took the initiative away from the antagonist, they did so with flimsy reasons and at the start of the round when the antagonists are weakest and sec the strongest. Result: greenshift.

I think people are sleeping on the part about them being in HoPline. One of the biggest ways to tell what someone is up to is asking yourself why is this person here, what are they doing, and what might they be trying to accomplish. A robo being in HoPline on it's own isn't suspicious, but other things considered it was a good hunch.

SkeletalElite wrote:I think people are sleeping on the part about them being in HoPline.

Thats because it is completely irrelevant. "Asking for access unrelated to the job" falls under hunch level of proof.

Iatots wrote:

Agux909 wrote:This rule lawyering is getting fucking annoying. Learn to read the situation and intentions behind the action and to understand the spirit of the rules. You guys listing all these points like tools would make for excellent banbots, jesus christ.

The rule lawyering was in reply to cacogen who outright asked for a guideline, cunt.

Now for your grade A projection example:
The actions taken by the officer in question go against the spirit of the game because antagonists by and large need to hold onto their equipment for the greatest majority of the round duration. For this reason, you are not allowed to search any person without a a good enough reason, so that traitors can have the initiative and set the round's conflict in motion. The officer not only took the initiative away from the antagonist, they did so with flimsy reasons and at the start of the round when the antagonists are weakest and sec the strongest. Result: greenshift.

First of all I didn't comment for the responses to caco only, I was speaking in general for previous posts and yeah, it happened to include yours too. You can swear all you want to a mirror.
Second, noone here is "projecting" anything, I was and am still firm when I say people commenting about how the note is 100% deserved here are missing the point and not understanding the spirit of the rules: There was no malicious action nor any sort of "potential future behavior" to note for. As said before the appealer doesn't and didn't go around searching/suspecting everyone systematically until finding an antag, it was a specific circumstance in that specific understaffed sec roundstart that led him to follow his instincts and believe one way, and given that belief in that particular moment, a search was warranted.

As I said before and it should be clear for everyone, people in this game work with incomplete information and have their own "truth" of whatever they happen to believe at a given moment. At that moment the appealer believed the roboticist was a cultie, and acted upon it.

If you still want to keep going at this, first chill a second and think about the following: how many times non-antags get killed by other non-antags because the killer had incomplete information or a personal belief about them being an antag? Even I have had situations like this, on both the giving and receiving end, and it sucks. But it can and it will happen sometimes, it's how the game works. Not everyone involved in these situations are doing things maliciously, and I think there was no malicious action intended by the appealer here. He just wanted to do a good job as an officer and, lucky or not, succeeded at it.

Agux909 wrote: Second, noone here is "projecting" anything, I was and am still firm when I say people commenting about how the note is 100% deserved here are missing the point and not understanding the spirit of the rules: There was no malicious action nor any sort of "potential future behavior" to note for. As said before the appealer doesn't and didn't go around searching/suspecting everyone systematically until finding an antag, it was a specific circumstance in that specific understaffed sec roundstart that led him to follow his instincts and believe one way, and given that belief in that particular moment, a search was warranted.

As I said before and it should be clear for everyone, people in this game work with incomplete information and have their own "truth" of whatever they happen to believe at a given moment. At that moment the appealer believed the roboticist was a cultie, and acted upon it.

I don't think you know what incomplete information is, or the context in which it is used. This is an example of incomplete information. In the picture, Sally has no reason to believe the ball was moved, and will probably feel confused about the situation very shortly. Sally is about to take action based on incomplete information; we don't chastise her for not knowing better.
In the same manner, players are not punished for taking actions to the detriment of the station if they genuinely acted in the best interest with the information they had.
This has nothing to do with the note, the officer made a choice based on their complete metaknowledge of the game to the detriment of the round.
They were admonished not because of something they could not have known, but because they took an action when they knew too little to justify it.