/tg/Station 13

LETS GO BABY WOOO ABOUT DAMN TIME

link the thread you fucking retard.

thunder12345's playtime starting from before the ban appeal and after the ban expired
aka: really dude

terranaut wrote:link the thread you fucking retard.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... ead#unread

saprasam wrote:
thunder12345's playtime starting from before the ban appeal and after the ban expired
aka: really dude

Please draw a red line on the day of the appeal and the day of the ban expiring

trollbreeder wrote:

saprasam wrote:
thunder12345's playtime starting from before the ban appeal and after the ban expired
aka: really dude

Please draw a red line on the day of the appeal and the day of the ban expiring

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Fuck you, pay me.

I don't understand the value of Vekter's post beyond "fuck you we do what we want"

Malkraz wrote:I don't understand the value of Vekter's post beyond "fuck you we do what we want"

I think the implication is that Headmins could have stepped in at anytime to rule on it if they felt like it was worth shortening.

headmins historically have the worst response times out of anyone and they don't play the game anyway

RaveRadbury wrote:

Malkraz wrote:I don't understand the value of Vekter's post beyond "fuck you we do what we want"

I think the implication is that Headmins could have stepped in at anytime to rule on it if they felt like it was worth shortening.

lmfao like that would ever happen

RaveRadbury wrote:

Malkraz wrote:I don't understand the value of Vekter's post beyond "fuck you we do what we want"

I think the implication is that Headmins could have stepped in at anytime to rule on it if they felt like it was worth shortening.

yeah and i could start spontaneously shitting solid gold bullion one day but i don't make my financial decisions based on that possibility

By the way this is total banbot behavior, especially if you look at Rule 5 Precedents

Minimum levels of effort for heads of staff, silicon roles, and team antagonist generally include not logging out/going AFK at or near round start due to the importance of those roles within the round for progression. Constant logging out or going AFK may be given warnings by admins, and may progress to jobbans.

MAY be given warnings
MAY PROGRESS to jobbans
Instantly going for maximum overkill on first offense with the player having a legitimate reason for leaving AND doing some due diligence in promoting another crewmember is just being a cocksucker.

I don’t know why there’s all this deflection, up to and including out-of-context Discord screencaps alleging some sort of conspiracy masterminded by the banned player. You weren’t busy. You weren’t unaware. You were careless and hurt another player’s experience as a result. People will retain more respect for you if you own up to the fact that you messed up.

i don't think the onus is on the player to notify an admin that they have posted an appeal; if you're going to ban someone you should be capable of handling the appeal in a reasonable manner. this is something i hope to be able to improve greatly in the near future, pending some forum changes.

respectfully commenting,
bobbah 'bee' brown

woaohfhjf what do you have planned bobbah bee?

i actually tried to contact thunder on discord multiple times, PM and in server about why he spent a week playing but not responding to the ban appeal, they went silent every time. And yes, they do accept public PMs. Hmm.

wesoda25 wrote:woaohfhjf what do you have planned bobbah bee?

i kinda wanna add like a proper form sorta thing for doing a ban appeal on the forums, instead of just a template you copy and paste into your post, but that'd be after some other pretty major changes coming down the line in the (near?) future

edit: to clarify because i kinda didnt answer the question i was thinking this form could (potentially?) include a notification for the banning admin

thinking forwards,
bobbah 'bee' brown

bobbahbrown wrote:i don't think the onus is on the player to notify an admin that they have posted an appeal; if you're going to ban someone you should be capable of handling the appeal in a reasonable manner. this is something i hope to be able to improve greatly in the near future, pending some forum changes.

respectfully commenting,
bobbah 'bee' brown

the bee has spoken

Malkraz wrote:By the way this is total banbot behavior, especially if you look at Rule 5 Precedents

Minimum levels of effort for heads of staff, silicon roles, and team antagonist generally include not logging out/going AFK at or near round start due to the importance of those roles within the round for progression. Constant logging out or going AFK may be given warnings by admins, and may progress to jobbans.

MAY be given warnings
MAY PROGRESS to jobbans
Instantly going for maximum overkill on first offense with the player having a legitimate reason for leaving AND doing some due diligence in promoting another crewmember is just being a cocksucker.

This is what makes me think they didn't even bother to do due dilligence when they fucking banned the guy.

"Yeah uh that's a rule break that means I gotta ban". It's not like I can imagine a lot of people ahelping "YO THIS GUY LEFT DID HE INFORM YOU THROUGH AN AHELP!????"

There wouldn't even be this much of a fuss if the ban wasn't so lazy in the first place.

i would add to what i've said already that whilst i think the banning admin should definitely be handling a ban in a timely manner, i think this situation is more indicative of a need for policy change or process change. the ban appeal process overall is fairly opaque to those who are appealing, and it would be better if we could have a better standard to let players know that their appeal hasn't been missed and is being looked at or considered.

whilst i may think that the way thunder is responding to the complaint may be look to be a bit strange in their responses, i would also state that i think thunder has been a good admin and hasn't had issues that ive seen in the time that ive been around. combining this situation with the context of being very busy (and presumably stressed) with school, i think whilst some mistakes were made in handling of the appeal i don't feel this is something that thunder should be super frowned upon for but instead just seen as a reminder to keep in touch with the forums and keep up a means of communication with those you are dealing with. i don't think this was done intentionally or maliciously.

hoping for a reasonable resolution,
bobbah 'bee' brown

capn_monkeypaw wrote:Fuck you, pay me.

if you're going to step into a volunteer job you could attempt to do the bare miniumum

Holy fuck why are people so fucking self centered.

3/4ths of complaints are people who are just convinced some random internet guy has it out for them. Really? You think you're the only person we're focused on or something?

I forget shit all the time. I know for a fact y'all do, too. Is it that hard to believe Thunder didn't think about adminning? The idea that an admin deliberately targets you outta nowhere is borderline narcissistic. Can you really not expand your worldview to entertain the notion that, hey, this guy has a life too? You just didn't cross his mind? You think that out of the hundreds of bans the average admin has placed, you and you alone were fucked over for no reason?

What are you implying he gains from fucking over this random asshat? Or is he just cosmically evil?

Well thunder accused the other guy of deliberately not doing due diligence in spamming his discord because he wanted an excuse to admin complaint him floranotten so maybe you're being a bit of a hypocrite there

FloranOtten wrote:Holy fuck why are people so fucking self centered.

3/4ths of complaints are people who are just convinced some random internet guy has it out for them. Really? You think you're the only person we're focused on or something?

I forget shit all the time. I know for a fact y'all do, too. Is it that hard to believe Thunder didn't think about adminning? The idea that an admin deliberately targets you outta nowhere is borderline narcissistic. Can you really not expand your worldview to entertain the notion that, hey, this guy has a life too? You just didn't cross his mind? You think that out of the hundreds of bans the average admin has placed, you and you alone were fucked over for no reason?

What are you implying he gains from fucking over this random asshat? Or is he just cosmically evil?

Yes internet spaceman game admins are pure angels who don't even know the concept of "revenge" and absolutely don't occupy a position within the community that is extremely attractive to enforcing sadists.

How many reminders do you need to reply to an appeal before you think "maybe I should take a break from banning people from the game because I'm incapable of following up and just leave them out to dry"?
I don't doubt he "simply forgot" however many times, but it's making him totally negligent as an admin.

Florran, the guy got reminded several times by different people in different formats. There comes a time when "I forgot" just doesn't apply.

Ignoring that - the ban itself was just dogshit, if Thunder couldn't see they were being a dick with the ban a fucking week later idk what to say. The guy didn't just neglectfully alt f4, he went to the effort to appoint a successor. This is something that usually gets at most a note for a first offence even if he did just alt f4 for no reason.

Instead "yeah I'm gonna hit him with a week". Stupid ban compounded by the fact he had the gall to say "its appropriate", compounded by the fact he didn't bother to reply until after a week, compounded by "yeah he was reminded multiple times", compounded by his dismissive attitude in the complaint "yeah you let me forget on purpose so you could complain".

Thunder shit the bed at literally every point where he could have turned around to say "yeah shit my bad I should have fixed it".

I had the perfect post comparing Thunder's administration here to their conduct as a callous powergamer (i.e. robust) back in the day (and probably still now) and the conduct of admins of old (this type of thing was not unusual then) but I decided against posting it. These new posts have made me regret that.

Suffice to say, I wouldn't be surprised to learn this shittiness was intentional, especially with the way they're now trying to turn it around on the guy and accuse him of grudging him with an admin complaint for not getting into contact with him directly. As though the onus is on him to make them do their job.

Don't ascribe malice to what can equally be explained by stupidity.

Sure, revenge is indeed a thing. I think our most famous example is Nabski blatantly admitting he was grudging someone in achat. But do we have similar evidence here? Do we have ANY indication Thunder has interacted with this person before, let alone enough to give a cause for revenge?

I don't know man, I just feel like y'all are always so fucking hungry for blood. Every damn time someone gets banned or makes a complaint the admin is painted as some sadistic figure out to fuck up players lives to get off. And every time it turns out to be a god damn nothingburger with a side of sparkling water.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn this shittiness was intentional

this sentiment seems to be the majority in most of these threads. Fuck, man, is it that hard to believe someone (even with several reminders) forgot about something for a week?

0 posts in this thread ascribed malice to his actions prior to your whining about it, for the record.

FloranOtten wrote:I don't know man, I just feel like y'all are always so fucking hungry for blood. Every damn time someone gets banned or makes a complaint the admin is painted as some sadistic figure out to fuck up players lives to get off. And every time it turns out to be a god damn nothingburger with a side of sparkling water.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn this shittiness was intentional

this sentiment seems to be the majority in most of these threads. Fuck, man, is it that hard to believe someone (even with several reminders) forgot about something for a week?

Again - you ignored the fact it isn't 'just' that he ignored the ban for a week. You ignored the fact that he considered week banning a guy for a harmless first offence "reasonable". You ignored that he blamed the player for "not chasing him up" and then ascribed "oh I forgot/I didn't see/you didn't use the right method" when it turns out hey the player actually fucking DID that even though they shouldn't have to in the first place. You ignored the fact he painted the guy as "conspiring to make an admin complaint" instead of maybe considering that he left a player to feel like shit because he just didn't bother to do his due diligence.

And "oh woe the admin is always the bad guy in peanuts" is a complete crock of shit. Scrolling through the many peanuts in off topic, the only "Wow admin wtf" posts on page 1 are coffee being overzealous, coffee punishing AA from HoPs, one guy getting banned as golem for self defence, one guy who got banbaited, some guys getting banned for 'antag rolling' and this one.

Meanwhile we have "idiot player kills clown captain" "players commit ritual suicide on manuel" "Deedubya is retarded" "Castortroy gets banned" "Castortroy gets banned take 2" "Cat wit no undies" "I'm not racist - moonman pfp" "idiot CE opens SM" "Idiot metagrudges with ghost role" "guy tardrages" "BEE SOCKS".

But yeah you're right the poor poor admins are ALWAYS blamed when there's a ban

Again - you ignored the fact it isn't 'just' that he ignored the ban for a week. You ignored the fact that he considered week banning a guy for a harmless first offence "reasonable". You ignored that he blamed the player for "not chasing him up" and then ascribed "oh I forgot/I didn't see" when it turns out hey the player actually fucking DID that even though they shouldn't have to in the first place. You ignored the fact he painted the guy as "conspiring to make an admin complaint" instead of maybe considering that he left a player to feel like shit because he just didn't bother to do his due diligence.

Feels like you're repeating yourself to extend the list. Let's retally;
He "ignored a ban for a week". You dislike the specifics of the ban. He blamed the player for not asking him to reply. He mischaracterized the guy from a quote in discord.

I've already talked about the first part. The second bit is pretty fucking par for the course with you. The third bit is bad, yes. The fourth bit is pretty fucking reasonable? "Waiting for the ban to expire so I can make a complaint" is not a terribly good look, and it's not unreasonable that thunder assumed what it looks to be saying.

And "oh woe the admin is always the bad guy in peanuts" is a complete crock of shit. Scrolling through the many peanuts in off topic, the only "Wow admin wtf" posts on page 1 are coffee being overzealous, coffee punishing AA from HoPs, one guy getting banned as golem for self defence, one guy who got banbaited, some guys getting banned for 'antag rolling' and this one.

You've listed 11 player faults and 5 admin faults. I really doubt 1/3 appeals/complaints has the admin be the aformentioned sadist evil bastard looking to murder puppies. Even assuming every one of these is doing a bad, does that always mean the admin in question is an evil maniac that sets out every morning to ruin a player's day?

"Disliked the specifics"

BRUH it's a week role ban without any prior notes claimed because he didn't "follow procedure" when he obviously went to the effort to do his own due dilligence. "Par for the course" is a pretty pathetic way to deflect that it's a terrible judgement call to go "he teeeechnically broke the rules as written so I'm going to hit him as hard as I can without it being obvious admin abuse". If it was just a "come to the forums" it wouldn't even be an issue - he STOOD BY THE BAN, WHY. How does role banning him for a week improve the server? What purpose did it serve? The ban sucked how is this "disliked the specifics"?

You've already acknowledged the third as you've stated.

The fourth - "Not a terribly good look". Thunder doesn't reply for a week, but the one thing he didn't neglect is to screenshot the guy being ticked off that his ban got ignored and venting on the day it expires (And you can tell he saved that shit then instead of looking back for it later since it says 'today' as opposed to Malkraz' 01/21/2021). Claiming "Oh look he didn't remind me because it's a player conspiracy to besmirch my name". It arguably combines with point 3 as not chasing up the admin to respond is sort of the default, it's hardly possible for players to "intentionally not do things they aren't meant to be doing".

I listed 11 player faults as opposed to the 5 admin faults because you seemed to claim "All peanuts do is blame the admin" when clearly the numbers don't support it. Furthermore - most of the players in said player-fault peanuts are treated MUCH (especially BEA SOCKS and Cat wit no undies) worse than all the admins bar this one. Outside of coffee what I skimmed over was mostly mild "bro why cant golems fight back this is shit" and other 'policy' objections. It's up to you if you consider people out for Coffee's blood, Malkraz probably is - I personally like the guy I just think he's a bit touchy on the button but he's also the sort of guy who'll objectively look at his judgement and reverse it if he thinks he's made a mistake:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=28320
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=28327

"Disliked the specifics"

BRUH it's a week role ban without any prior notes claimed because he didn't "follow procedure" when he obviously went to the effort to do his own due dilligence. "Par for the course" is a pretty pathetic way to deflect that it's a terrible judgement call to go "he teeeechnically broke the rules as written so I'm going to hit him as hard as I can without it being obvious admin abuse". If it was just a "come to the forums" it wouldn't even be an issue - he STOOD BY THE BAN, WHY. How does role banning him for a week improve the server? What purpose did it serve? The ban sucked how is this "disliked the specifics"?

See also; you disliked the ban

The fourth - "Not a terribly good look". Thunder doesn't reply for a week, but the one thing he didn't neglect is to screenshot the guy being ticked off that his ban got ignored and venting on the day it expires (And you can tell he saved that shit then instead of looking back for it later since it says 'today' as opposed to Malkraz' 01/21/2021). Claiming "Oh look he didn't remind me because it's a player conspiracy to besmirch my name". It arguably combines with point 3 as not chasing up the admin to respond is sort of the default, it's hardly possible for players to "intentionally not do things they aren't meant to be doing".

See also; not a terribly good look.

I'm not going to reply to something again if it's a repeat

I listed 11 player faults as opposed to the 5 admin faults because you seemed to claim "All peanuts do is blame the admin" when clearly the numbers don't support it. Furthermore - most of the players in said player-fault peanuts are treated MUCH (especially BEA SOCKS and Cat wit no undies) worse than all the admins bar this one. Outside of coffee what I skimmed over was mostly mild "bro why cant golems fight back this is shit" and other 'policy' objections. It's up to you if you consider people out for Coffee's blood, Malkraz probably is - I personally like the guy I just think he's a bit touchy on the button but he's also the sort of guy who'll objectively look at his judgement and reverse it if he thinks he's made a mistake:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28320
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28327

If my comments made it seem like I think all peanuts ever blame the admin I'm really sorry for phrasing it that way. That's not my point. My point is that every damn time an appeal/complaint comes in where the admin did bad, y'all decide the admin can't have made a mistake. It can't be explained by any reason besides malice. The admin is just some kind of evil bastard twirling his moustache at the prospect of fucking over player #266476434.

FloranOtten wrote:

"Disliked the specifics"

BRUH it's a week role ban without any prior notes claimed because he didn't "follow procedure" when he obviously went to the effort to do his own due dilligence. "Par for the course" is a pretty pathetic way to deflect that it's a terrible judgement call to go "he teeeechnically broke the rules as written so I'm going to hit him as hard as I can without it being obvious admin abuse". If it was just a "come to the forums" it wouldn't even be an issue - he STOOD BY THE BAN, WHY. How does role banning him for a week improve the server? What purpose did it serve? The ban sucked how is this "disliked the specifics"?

See also; you disliked the ban

The fourth - "Not a terribly good look". Thunder doesn't reply for a week, but the one thing he didn't neglect is to screenshot the guy being ticked off that his ban got ignored and venting on the day it expires (And you can tell he saved that shit then instead of looking back for it later since it says 'today' as opposed to Malkraz' 01/21/2021). Claiming "Oh look he didn't remind me because it's a player conspiracy to besmirch my name". It arguably combines with point 3 as not chasing up the admin to respond is sort of the default, it's hardly possible for players to "intentionally not do things they aren't meant to be doing".

See also; not a terribly good look.

I'm not going to reply to something again if it's a repeat

I listed 11 player faults as opposed to the 5 admin faults because you seemed to claim "All peanuts do is blame the admin" when clearly the numbers don't support it. Furthermore - most of the players in said player-fault peanuts are treated MUCH (especially BEA SOCKS and Cat wit no undies) worse than all the admins bar this one. Outside of coffee what I skimmed over was mostly mild "bro why cant golems fight back this is shit" and other 'policy' objections. It's up to you if you consider people out for Coffee's blood, Malkraz probably is - I personally like the guy I just think he's a bit touchy on the button but he's also the sort of guy who'll objectively look at his judgement and reverse it if he thinks he's made a mistake:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28320
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=28327

If my comments made it seem like I think all peanuts ever blame the admin I'm really sorry for phrasing it that way. That's not my point. My point is that every damn time an appeal/complaint comes in where the admin did bad, y'all decide the admin can't have made a mistake. It can't be explained by any reason besides malice. The admin is just some kind of evil bastard twirling his moustache at the prospect of fucking over player #266476434.

Doesn't like every single coffeedragon peanut except the bee socks one contain accusations of incompetence?

Once again Floran you're the only one coming in with this "the admin in question is an evil maniac that sets out every morning to ruin a player's day" stuff. There was not a SINGLE post assigning malice in this thread until you brought it up. The only person who even suggested it was the banned player himself in his own complaint thread.

and no i dont want coffee's blood she just shouldn't be on the LRP servers with these dopey FAILRP FAILRP bans

Thing is I'm fine with admins making a mistake or 2 - Coffee is polite and fair in appeals and seems to genuinely want to make the server better. He's arguably got more questionable appeals than he probably should. But he'll acknowledge if he screws it and try to fix it.

Thunder keeps shitting the bed. He makes the ban and doesn't reply (despite the player trying to talk to him ingame) -> he responds with a "I was allowed to ban you" at the very end of the ban -> complaint opened and he replies with a "You're conspiring to make a complaint" -> thunder tries to blame the player for not pinging him on discord.

He could have turned around at any of these points and fixed it. He didn't do due dilligence on the appeal or pass it to someone else (I'm personally fucking mortified if I forget to do something for someone that I said I would). He didn't say "Yeah okay sorry my bad on that one" in the complaint (If you go through unsuccessful complaints there are plenty of admins who say 'yeah sorry about that' and the player withdraws the complaint because they've been listened too), he just digs his feet in and puts it back on the player. It's not that he "made a mistake" it's that he keeps fucking doing it.

If he turns around NOW and apologises for being screwy the whole process, I'd still even respect that - but I highly doubt that's about to happen.

Hell:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 53&t=26692
Thrax HARD screws up with literal admin abuse. Guy just goes "yep sorry my fault". I 100% respect the guy despite the mistake because he owned up and tried to make it better.

curious how there's thunder but no lightning! what are the admins thinking

fffffffffffffffffffffffuck jannies

This complaint wasn't about Thunder's overall conduct headmins it was about how he shit up hard on this particular appeal and then attacked kieth in the complaint lmao

well, another complaint whisked into the annals of irrelevancy as it is moved into resolved complaints : (

Disappointing to see the headadmins claim there is nothing they can do about this when multiple avenues exist to make this a nonissue, especially when it's as simple as letting another admin take a ban appeal if the admin doesn't reply within a few days