!!MSO ran out of weed!! (The cooler August 2021 Drama Megathread)

[Rohen_Tahir]

Bottom post of the previous page:

It is time for head coders accept a new paradigm where they sit under the host, as head admins do.

Things can not continue as things once have. I will continue to get frustrated at feeling powerless in matters involving coderbus until that frustration leads me to abandon all protocol, as it did today.

The solution is obvious.

?

[Fishimun]

Daniel is better than disco inferno
prove me right.

[terranaut]

daniel was the tiny flying living room right
i liked it
i like all meme/special shuttles honestly, couldnt care less if i die on the shuttle as long as its funny

[Flatulent]

you’re all wrong on the fact that round will end soon.

NEVER FORGET THE 410% TD DISCO INFERNO THAT LASTED 20 MINUTES

[terranaut]

you’re all wrong on the fact that round will end soon.

NEVER FORGET THE 410% TD DISCO INFERNO THAT LASTED 20 MINUTES

this will get better now that mso is headheadcoder and will force c*ders to write better code before feature bloating stuff nobody wants

[Misdoubtful]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

[ShadowDimentio]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

It’s about the maintainers sperging out and deleting a vitally needed bug fix PR over a bee emoji in the title, MSO telling them not to frivolously delete PRs for dumb shit, then them sperging out because they never agreed to not be retards.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

1)bee emoji made in pr https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60701 get closed by maintainer that can edit title and desc with a single botton press ( and tells person to make a new whole pr)
2)this makes mso flip the table and add guideline that maintainers shouldnt close prs for piss poor reasons https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60733/files
3) maintainers mald and tell mso to step down or they ll make a new server
4) maintainers calm down and accept mso as head coder

end of timeline

[Fishimun]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

1)bee emoji made in pr https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60701 get closed by maintainer that can edit title and desc with a single botton press ( and tells person to make a new whole pr)
2)this makes mso flip the table and add guideline that maintainers shouldnt close prs for piss poor reasons https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60733/files
3) maintainers mald and tell mso to step down or they ll make a new server
4) maintainers calm down and accept mso as head coder

end of timeline

damn i didn't know i was speaking to the man from 2054. how's medbay in recent years?

[BONERMASTER]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

1)bee emoji made in pr https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60701 get closed by maintainer that can edit title and desc with a single botton press ( and tells person to make a new whole pr)
2)this makes mso flip the table and add guideline that maintainers shouldnt close prs for piss poor reasons https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/60733/files
3) maintainers mald and tell mso to step down or they ll make a new server
4) maintainers calm down and accept mso as head coder

end of timeline

Agent, you are not to interfere with the timeline. Follow the plan. Capture Yulaw.


With warm regards
-MultiVerse Authority™

[Agux909]

I wonder if MSO would approve bringing nanites back...

[Gigapuddi420]

commemorate this moment by having every round spawn a book containing the script to the Bee Movie.

Well guys, ya like jazz?

[sinfulbliss]

commemorate this moment by having every round spawn a book containing the script to the Bee Movie.

Well guys, ya like jazz?

Bee movie, without fail, finding itself once again in the center of the drama.

[Lumbermancer]

the absolute division was a mistake

[Rohesie]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

The reasons are naturally more complex than the weird fanfic that's being painted here.

It started some time ago, MSO started being more active on development after years of inactivity.
He found a lot of things changed during his absence, and there was a different contribution culture from when he directed development long ago.
In particular, he had/has a hard time conciliating views with the newer maintainers, who brought a lot of changes in standards and procedures into the codebase.
I assume there have been other factors as well, as MSO has butted heads several times with several maintainers, and we got a few unkind words from him, me included though I wasn't actually the author of what he was complaining about.

Many small things that by themselves are not worth much ended up getting on his nerves, and that exploded in parts in two moments.

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.
His reaction was to force the test merge of the removal of all slips, declaring there would be no more slipping until admin tools to grant similar control of the game as a few years ago were made. The size of that request is difficult to explain if you don't know the code, but suffice it to say that's far from trivial.

Things were not on good standing by then, he had publicly declared his lack of trust on the team and made it clear he didn't think of us very much (of me and all maintainers who joined the team after he said to lack the critical thinking skills necessary to do the job), so when Timber closed a PR for poor reasons he exploded a bit more violently again, abused his commit access to instantly self-merge a change in the contribution guidelines and declared himself above the headcoders.

The headcoders naturally removed his commit access for its abuse, and the dev team in general, already tired of his rudeness, did not seem inclined to accept this proposed new arrangement.
Spirits rose, threats were made, and as is usual things calmed down.

The aftermath of this is that fewer people have access to the servers now, only a few trusted keyholders. Some maintainer-keyholders lost that privilege.

What does this mean, how does this impact people?
Very little, it changes almost nothing.
A few people who contributed with their spare time so that players wouldn't get disconnected during crashes, to fix things in a more timely manner and to generally maintain the servers lost their access.
The ones who retained it will have a bit more work on their hands, and things might be a little bit slower.
But the game carries on.

[Gigapuddi420]

sooner or later this thread is going to be full of deleted posts I tell you what. Next time just tell actionninja to fuck off with his derail and debate that shit in another thread, all the politics containment nerds are breaking out their 'ACKUALLY...'

[Super Aggro Crag]

lots of people denying the armenian genocide in here didn't realize i shared this community with a bunch of fucking t*rks

[Agux909]

Shut the fuck up about this political nonsense, nobody wants to read it. Stay on the god damn topic.

[TheMythicGhost]

sooner or later this thread is going to be full of deleted posts I tell you what. Next time just tell actionninja to fuck off with his derail and debate that shit in another thread, all the politics containment nerds are breaking out their 'ACKUALLY...'

Honestly the best approach here.

ActionNinja, when is your next self-imposed exile? I think the count is 3 now.

[terranaut]

lots of people denying the armenian genocide in here didn't realize i shared this community with a bunch of fucking t*rks

Are Armenians white?

[Super Aggro Crag]

lots of people denying the armenian genocide in here didn't realize i shared this community with a bunch of fucking t*rks

Are Armenians white?

yea

[terranaut]

lots of people denying the armenian genocide in here didn't realize i shared this community with a bunch of fucking t*rks

Are Armenians white?

yea

Fuck 'em then

[Gigapuddi420]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

The reasons are naturally more complex than the weird fanfic that's being painted here.

It started some time ago, MSO started being more active on development after years of inactivity.
He found a lot of things changed during his absence, and there was a different contribution culture from when he directed development long ago.
In particular, he had/has a hard time conciliating views with the newer maintainers, who brought a lot of changes in standards and procedures into the codebase.
I assume there have been other factors as well, as MSO has butted heads several times with several maintainers, and we got a few unkind words from him, me included though I wasn't actually the author of what he was complaining about.

Many small things that by themselves are not worth much ended up getting on his nerves, and that exploded in parts in two moments.

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.
His reaction was to force the test merge of the removal of all slips, declaring there would be no more slipping until admin tools to grant similar control of the game as a few years ago were made. The size of that request is difficult to explain if you don't know the code, but suffice it to say that's far from trivial.

Things were not on good standing by then, he had publicly declared his lack of trust on the team and made it clear he didn't think of us very much (of me and all maintainers who joined the team after he said to lack the critical thinking skills necessary to do the job), so when Timber closed a PR for poor reasons he exploded a bit more violently again, abused his commit access to instantly self-merge a change in the contribution guidelines and declared himself above the headcoders.

The headcoders naturally removed his commit access for its abuse, and the dev team in general, already tired of his rudeness, did not seem inclined to accept this proposed new arrangement.
Spirits rose, threats were made, and as is usual things calmed down.

The aftermath of this is that fewer people have access to the servers now, only a few trusted keyholders. Some maintainer-keyholders lost that privilege.

What does this mean, how does this impact people?
Very little, it changes almost nothing.
A few people who contributed with their spare time so that players wouldn't get disconnected during crashes, to fix things in a more timely manner and to generally maintain the servers lost their access.
The ones who retained it will have a bit more work on their hands, and things might be a little bit slower.
But the game carries on.

Maintainers: it's a long and complex history let me explain why...
Players: Haha, bee emoji goes bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[terranaut]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

The reasons are naturally more complex than the weird fanfic that's being painted here.

It started some time ago, MSO started being more active on development after years of inactivity.
He found a lot of things changed during his absence, and there was a different contribution culture from when he directed development long ago.
In particular, he had/has a hard time conciliating views with the newer maintainers, who brought a lot of changes in standards and procedures into the codebase.
I assume there have been other factors as well, as MSO has butted heads several times with several maintainers, and we got a few unkind words from him, me included though I wasn't actually the author of what he was complaining about.

Many small things that by themselves are not worth much ended up getting on his nerves, and that exploded in parts in two moments.

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.
His reaction was to force the test merge of the removal of all slips, declaring there would be no more slipping until admin tools to grant similar control of the game as a few years ago were made. The size of that request is difficult to explain if you don't know the code, but suffice it to say that's far from trivial.

Things were not on good standing by then, he had publicly declared his lack of trust on the team and made it clear he didn't think of us very much (of me and all maintainers who joined the team after he said to lack the critical thinking skills necessary to do the job), so when Timber closed a PR for poor reasons he exploded a bit more violently again, abused his commit access to instantly self-merge a change in the contribution guidelines and declared himself above the headcoders.

The headcoders naturally removed his commit access for its abuse, and the dev team in general, already tired of his rudeness, did not seem inclined to accept this proposed new arrangement.
Spirits rose, threats were made, and as is usual things calmed down.

The aftermath of this is that fewer people have access to the servers now, only a few trusted keyholders. Some maintainer-keyholders lost that privilege.

What does this mean, how does this impact people?
Very little, it changes almost nothing.
A few people who contributed with their spare time so that players wouldn't get disconnected during crashes, to fix things in a more timely manner and to generally maintain the servers lost their access.
The ones who retained it will have a bit more work on their hands, and things might be a little bit slower.
But the game carries on.

Maintainers: it's a long and complex history let me explain why...
Players: Haha, bee emoji goes bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Rohesie is the only maintainer I've seen this approach with a level head so far
I'd say make Rohesie headcoder but unless something changed I know they don't want that.

[Agux909]

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.

You gotta admit this is an understandable reason to get super mad and to want to force a change with authority. After all, it remained in this poor state for years and noone cared to bat an eye.

[Gigapuddi420]

it's a boring and rational explanation for the drama but I just want it to bee about coders getting upset at bee emojis in pr titles.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

slips arent fixed and bee emojis are still banned, better choose one thing to stick to maintainers

[Omega_DarkPotato]

SNIP
Don't care didn't ask, plus you're white

Fuck I can't see this post it's behind a maximum IQ gate what a shame

hey guys you know you can delete your excess quoting that takes up a page each time right

[Rohesie]

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.

You gotta admit this is an understandable reason to get super mad and to want to force a change with authority. After all, it remained in this poor state for years and noone cared to bat an eye.

Yea, I don't think MSO's reasons were nonexistent, or that he was acting fully at random like a power-hungry looney. I've said so in chats with other maintainers.
The problem is that he was acting in anger and likely assuming bad faith, so he went a bit further than was necessary.

I do think there's still issues to be addressed, not everything is solved. But hopefully that happens in less passionate terms.

[Super Aggro Crag]

maybe what we should do is just hold a big barbecue

all grill together and become pals

we can even grill some vegetals for stinky

[Misdoubtful]

Is this actually all over a bee emoji?

Lmao people need to get a grip if it is it's a bee emoji it's not even a big deal????

The reasons are naturally more complex than the weird fanfic that's being painted here.

It started some time ago, MSO started being more active on development after years of inactivity.
He found a lot of things changed during his absence, and there was a different contribution culture from when he directed development long ago.
In particular, he had/has a hard time conciliating views with the newer maintainers, who brought a lot of changes in standards and procedures into the codebase.
I assume there have been other factors as well, as MSO has butted heads several times with several maintainers, and we got a few unkind words from him, me included though I wasn't actually the author of what he was complaining about.

Many small things that by themselves are not worth much ended up getting on his nerves, and that exploded in parts in two moments.

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.
His reaction was to force the test merge of the removal of all slips, declaring there would be no more slipping until admin tools to grant similar control of the game as a few years ago were made. The size of that request is difficult to explain if you don't know the code, but suffice it to say that's far from trivial.

Things were not on good standing by then, he had publicly declared his lack of trust on the team and made it clear he didn't think of us very much (of me and all maintainers who joined the team after he said to lack the critical thinking skills necessary to do the job), so when Timber closed a PR for poor reasons he exploded a bit more violently again, abused his commit access to instantly self-merge a change in the contribution guidelines and declared himself above the headcoders.

The headcoders naturally removed his commit access for its abuse, and the dev team in general, already tired of his rudeness, did not seem inclined to accept this proposed new arrangement.
Spirits rose, threats were made, and as is usual things calmed down.

The aftermath of this is that fewer people have access to the servers now, only a few trusted keyholders. Some maintainer-keyholders lost that privilege.

What does this mean, how does this impact people?
Very little, it changes almost nothing.
A few people who contributed with their spare time so that players wouldn't get disconnected during crashes, to fix things in a more timely manner and to generally maintain the servers lost their access.
The ones who retained it will have a bit more work on their hands, and things might be a little bit slower.
But the game carries on.

I appreciate you taking the time to write this out tbh

SNIP
Don't care didn't ask, plus you're white

Fuck I can't see this post it's behind a maximum IQ gate what a shame

hey guys you know you can delete your excess quoting that takes up a page each time right

I'm kinda lazy

[Tlaltecuhtli]

i think mso and maintainers should unite and beat up sticky for shitting up the thread with off topic politics nobody asked for

[Agux909]

First was the slips one: there was a bug that made some turfs perma-slippery and he asked on how to fix it live. A maintainer gave him the wrong proc for him to call with SDQL and he permanently broke it for the round, generating a lot of hanging references. That made him very mad, chiefly at the obscurity of admin tools, the lack of support for live-debugging, and things having grown to a complexity in which it wasn't as trivial as before to fix things on the go.

You gotta admit this is an understandable reason to get super mad and to want to force a change with authority. After all, it remained in this poor state for years and noone cared to bat an eye.

Yea, I don't think MSO's reasons were nonexistent, or that he was acting fully at random like a power-hungry looney. I've said so in chats with other maintainers.
The problem is that he was acting in anger and likely assuming bad faith, so he went a bit further than was necessary.

I do think there's still issues to be addressed, not everything is solved. But hopefully that happens in less passionate terms.

Well said.

i think mso and maintainers should unite and beat up sticky for shitting up the thread with off topic politics nobody asked for

Seconded.

[Stickymayhem]

i think mso and maintainers should unite and beat up sticky for shitting up the thread with off topic politics nobody asked for

ok talcum cutie

[terranaut]

Rohesie, how do you feel about the attitude coders are alleged to have towards players, or all non-coders really, when criticism is made or complaints about undesired, forced changes raised?

[Rohesie]

Rohesie, how do you feel about the attitude coders are alleged to have towards players, or all non-coders really, when criticism is made or complaints about undesired, forced changes raised?

Bit of a broad question. Let me give you my personal experience in that regards, though it might not be the answer you want to hear.

Back when I only played and didn't contribute I had a ton of opinions and was pretty vocal about them. In retrospective I was pretty toxic and didn't realize it.
A lot of things that the devs did I thought were completely stupid, and I wasn't shy about saying so. And what reinforced my attitude is that I found a lot of fellow players echoing said opinions. It wasn't just a me thing, the devs were clearly dumb.

Then I started contributing and trying to implement the changes my fellow players thought good. Much to my dismay, the same people who claimed these things were vital or the game would die then didn't seem to care one bit about it. Sometimes it was just not implemented the way they liked it, sometimes time had changed their mind, but most of the time they just didn't care and moved on to the next offending matter to be pissed at.

Then I realized it that in good measure players, myself included here, find small issues and make them bigger than they're. Because not only this is a game we're passionate about, but being inflamed and invested is very attractive. Small issues greatly annoy us and give us reasons to vent and fight, and I guess that in good measure we evolved for that. Who doesn't love a little crusade when they feel justified?

So nowadays I'm aware that no matter what change you do to the game, some people will hate you for it and won't be shy about it. It comes with developing.
If there's a hundred players there will be a hundred and one opinions on how the game should be, it is how it is. If you want to do what you consider be improving the game, be ready to face the reaction.

Devs are often a bit soured by that kind of general feedback from the community, so they might even give off a bad attitude to people who come at them without bad intent. It's a bit of a vicious cycle, really.
Most players don't realize when they approach devs demandingly, telling them how dumb they're for making the changes they've done and how they should revert them. And are pikachu-faced when the devs don't react they way the expect. Again, I'm saying this from personal experience on both sides.

Some people take upon themselves the handle the community and be the target of hatred, so that others can code in peace. If you think of the dev team and some particular names come out as specially hated, chances are those are the ones intentionally doing it. And they're rather invaluable. It's part of why tg has such a big and stable development team, while most servers struggle to find active contributors. And it's also related to why tg does well in terms of player-count.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

You guys need to see the writing on the wall and get a new host who understands the limitations of his role. People forget that this already happened (Errorage), and it will happen again.

[TheMythicGhost]

i think mso and maintainers should unite and beat up sticky for shitting up the thread with off topic politics nobody asked for

Reminder this happened because ActionNinja disagreed with me on my view of the current drama, so he called me a white surpremacist and pulled a screencap from a conversation a year or two ago about a few hours later because he was malding. This was and is about the situation between the host and coders.

[TWATICUS]

i now understand PKPs frustration

[Super Aggro Crag]

You guys need to see the writing on the wall and get a new host who understands the limitations of his role. People forget that this already happened (Errorage), and it will happen again.

errorage was a sperg but the reason he stopped being host is because of cliquey high school drama bullshit where a bunch of codecucks threatened to fork over him being host of the server AND the forum and he backed down. you're just showing that coders are still the same fucking insular mean girl dipshits they've been for like a fucking decade now.

[Anuv]

Wow this definitely is the cooler drama thread (*said with a sarcastic tone as I snicker to myself and smirk at poster next to me*)

[technokek]

[Rohen_Tahir]

Who does?

Ben

[terranaut]

Rohesie, how do you feel about the attitude coders are alleged to have towards players, or all non-coders really, when criticism is made or complaints about undesired, forced changes raised?

Bit of a broad question. Let me give you my personal experience in that regards, though it might not be the answer you want to hear.

Back when I only played and didn't contribute I had a ton of opinions and was pretty vocal about them. In retrospective I was pretty toxic and didn't realize it.
A lot of things that the devs did I thought were completely stupid, and I wasn't shy about saying so. And what reinforced my attitude is that I found a lot of fellow players echoing said opinions. It wasn't just a me thing, the devs were clearly dumb.

Then I started contributing and trying to implement the changes my fellow players thought good. Much to my dismay, the same people who claimed these things were vital or the game would die then didn't seem to care one bit about it. Sometimes it was just not implemented the way they liked it, sometimes time had changed their mind, but most of the time they just didn't care and moved on to the next offending matter to be pissed at.

Then I realized it that in good measure players, myself included here, find small issues and make them bigger than they're. Because not only this is a game we're passionate about, but being inflamed and invested is very attractive. Small issues greatly annoy us and give us reasons to vent and fight, and I guess that in good measure we evolved for that. Who doesn't love a little crusade when they feel justified?

So nowadays I'm aware that no matter what change you do to the game, some people will hate you for it and won't be shy about it. It comes with developing.
If there's a hundred players there will be a hundred and one opinions on how the game should be, it is how it is. If you want to do what you consider be improving the game, be ready to face the reaction.

Devs are often a bit soured by that kind of general feedback from the community, so they might even give off a bad attitude to people who come at them without bad intent. It's a bit of a vicious cycle, really.
Most players don't realize when they approach devs demandingly, telling them how dumb they're for making the changes they've done and how they should revert them. And are pikachu-faced when the devs don't react they way the expect. Again, I'm saying this from personal experience on both sides.

Some people take upon themselves the handle the community and be the target of hatred, so that others can code in peace. If you think of the dev team and some particular names come out as specially hated, chances are those are the ones intentionally doing it. And they're rather invaluable. It's part of why tg has such a big and stable development team, while most servers struggle to find active contributors. And it's also related to why tg does well in terms of player-count.

It's the kind of well thought-out answer I'd expect from you, so exactly what I want to hear. If I wanted someone to just parrot my thoughts I could just keep shitposting with the general consensus.

Why do you think it is this way? Are other projects the same, or is this a /tg/ only issue? I keep hearing "fuck coders" even from friends who haven't been involved in any way with /tg/ for several years. When they think back to their time on /tg/, this is the response I get. I don't feel like this was an issue remotely as strongly when we were on TGMC. I might just be wrong but in my impression, aside from a few outliers, people were much more chill. Is it because the project was smaller and everybody was more involved with each other? Because nobody preached this whole "the seperation of codebase and administration is absolute" nonsense?

Most importantly, what can be done to get rid of this absolutely mindstaggering resentment players seem to have for coders? Of course you're not wrong, some people are just gonna complain and whine no matter what. What about valid complaints? I made a snarky comment somewhere, I think in the deleted quote chain, asking if the new ui still randomly dies and crashes, forcing you to restart the game (and sit through the 30 second wait if you're not a byond member). That's terrible for any number of reasons for all kinds of people interacting with the server in any capacity. I don't recall how long ago it was added nor do I really care how long exactly it has been, but we're talking about years. Why is this ok? Why wasn't whatever broke it reverted (or if it was the original PR, why wasn't that reverted until it was fixed)? Why do coders, in turn, get pikachu faced when players end up thinking all coders are assholes when you get called an entitled pissbaby for bringing stuff like this up or salting in deadchat because you died in the random 30 second timeout you're forced to sit through occasionally, or any other number of existing problems?

I understand that everyone working on this project is a volunteer and is bringing their time and sometimes very marketable, professional skills in for the low, low amount of free. But in the instances it ends up making the game worse, is it not okay to mention that and try to get it fixed or reverted? Whoever said it was imo very right about coders (here at least, and of course with several exceptions who're super cool people) viewing themselves as some kind of enlightened god caste deserving only of worship, and I for one am pretty glad they were made to eat some humble pie. Is that petty? Probably, but I don't think that invalidates what I said, and if MSO elbowing his way to the top of the codechain means there's a chance for this change then I welcome it with wide open arms.

[terranaut]

Wow this definitely is the cooler drama thread (*said with a sarcastic tone as I snicker to myself and smirk at poster next to me*)

emoting your thoughts is fail RP because other characters can never be privy to them, fucking loser.

[Anuv]

Wow this definitely is the cooler drama thread (*said with a sarcastic tone as I snicker to myself and smirk at poster next to me*)

emoting your thoughts is fail RP because other characters can never be privy to them, fucking loser.

*Chuckles under my breath while reading this post, as I think upon how much of a newb terranaut is and how everyone knows it (which is now known by others on account of my powerful psychic domination over those nearby)*

[technokek]

[Pandarsenic]

Rohesie, how do you feel about the attitude coders are alleged to have towards players, or all non-coders really, when criticism is made or complaints about undesired, forced changes raised?

Bit of a broad question. Let me give you my personal experience in that regards, though it might not be the answer you want to hear.

-snip-

Y'all seem so chill compared to back when c*ders would have a tight group of three maintainers where - and this is some OLD old storytime - since it was against Coder Law to merge your own PRs, one of the trio PRed a removal of an item, another reviewed it and went "it compiles let's go," and a third speedmerged it.

A bunch of people complained and the coders proceeded to lie to people's faces that it was "cleaning up the codebase" when it was removing... a clothing item that was a child of another clothing item with a different sprite, and that was basically it. They called the items "snowflake code," despite them having no new code associated, etc., other coders who weren't part of their circle called them out, it was a whole mess.

I do still hold that it is the most annoying goddamn thing that every time maintainers do something that someone doesn't like, they some of them seem to go "JuSt FoRk ThE cOdEbAsE tHeN" though

[EOBGames]

Rohesie, how do you feel about the attitude coders are alleged to have towards players, or all non-coders really, when criticism is made or complaints about undesired, forced changes raised?

Bit of a broad question. Let me give you my personal experience in that regards, though it might not be the answer you want to hear.

Back when I only played and didn't contribute I had a ton of opinions and was pretty vocal about them. In retrospective I was pretty toxic and didn't realize it.
A lot of things that the devs did I thought were completely stupid, and I wasn't shy about saying so. And what reinforced my attitude is that I found a lot of fellow players echoing said opinions. It wasn't just a me thing, the devs were clearly dumb.

Then I started contributing and trying to implement the changes my fellow players thought good. Much to my dismay, the same people who claimed these things were vital or the game would die then didn't seem to care one bit about it. Sometimes it was just not implemented the way they liked it, sometimes time had changed their mind, but most of the time they just didn't care and moved on to the next offending matter to be pissed at.

Then I realized it that in good measure players, myself included here, find small issues and make them bigger than they're. Because not only this is a game we're passionate about, but being inflamed and invested is very attractive. Small issues greatly annoy us and give us reasons to vent and fight, and I guess that in good measure we evolved for that. Who doesn't love a little crusade when they feel justified?

So nowadays I'm aware that no matter what change you do to the game, some people will hate you for it and won't be shy about it. It comes with developing.
If there's a hundred players there will be a hundred and one opinions on how the game should be, it is how it is. If you want to do what you consider be improving the game, be ready to face the reaction.

Devs are often a bit soured by that kind of general feedback from the community, so they might even give off a bad attitude to people who come at them without bad intent. It's a bit of a vicious cycle, really.
Most players don't realize when they approach devs demandingly, telling them how dumb they're for making the changes they've done and how they should revert them. And are pikachu-faced when the devs don't react they way the expect. Again, I'm saying this from personal experience on both sides.

Some people take upon themselves the handle the community and be the target of hatred, so that others can code in peace. If you think of the dev team and some particular names come out as specially hated, chances are those are the ones intentionally doing it. And they're rather invaluable. It's part of why tg has such a big and stable development team, while most servers struggle to find active contributors. And it's also related to why tg does well in terms of player-count.

It's the kind of well thought-out answer I'd expect from you, so exactly what I want to hear. If I wanted someone to just parrot my thoughts I could just keep shitposting with the general consensus.

Why do you think it is this way? Are other projects the same, or is this a /tg/ only issue? I keep hearing "fuck coders" even from friends who haven't been involved in any way with /tg/ for several years. When they think back to their time on /tg/, this is the response I get. I don't feel like this was an issue remotely as strongly when we were on TGMC. I might just be wrong but in my impression, aside from a few outliers, people were much more chill. Is it because the project was smaller and everybody was more involved with each other? Because nobody preached this whole "the seperation of codebase and administration is absolute" nonsense?

Most importantly, what can be done to get rid of this absolutely mindstaggering resentment players seem to have for coders? Of course you're not wrong, some people are just gonna complain and whine no matter what. What about valid complaints? I made a snarky comment somewhere, I think in the deleted quote chain, asking if the new ui still randomly dies and crashes, forcing you to restart the game (and sit through the 30 second wait if you're not a byond member). That's terrible for any number of reasons for all kinds of people interacting with the server in any capacity. I don't recall how long ago it was added nor do I really care how long exactly it has been, but we're talking about years. Why is this ok? Why wasn't whatever broke it reverted (or if it was the original PR, why wasn't that reverted until it was fixed)? Why do coders, in turn, get pikachu faced when players end up thinking all coders are assholes when you get called an entitled pissbaby for bringing stuff like this up or salting in deadchat because you died in the random 30 second timeout you're forced to sit through occasionally, or any other number of existing problems?

I understand that everyone working on this project is a volunteer and is bringing their time and sometimes very marketable, professional skills in for the low, low amount of free. But in the instances it ends up making the game worse, is it not okay to mention that and try to get it fixed or reverted? Whoever said it was imo very right about coders (here at least, and of course with several exceptions who're super cool people) viewing themselves as some kind of enlightened god caste deserving only of worship, and I for one am pretty glad they were made to eat some humble pie. Is that petty? Probably, but I don't think that invalidates what I said, and if MSO elbowing his way to the top of the codechain means there's a chance for this change then I welcome it with wide open arms.

I think that an important step on healing the division between players and coders is for all sides to remember that people are wanting and making the changes that they personally believe will improve the game. A lot of people seem to approach coding with the idea that coders want to destroy the game- obviously this isn't correct. They're making changes they believe would be the best for the game's overall health. Likewise, coders can quite often become jaded and believe that the playerbase is just clamouring for stuff that's going to make them more powerful in combat, or allow easier powergaming- which again isn't necessarily correct. People are suggesting what they believe would be best for the game. I won't lie, I've gotten sucked into this line of thinking in the past, from both sides, and it's really taken this situation to get me thinking more critically about it.

It should go without saying that we're never going to get everyone to agree, but at the very least if we can all remember we do all of this out of a passion for the game and not to see its downfall, I think we'd be taking a good first step towards a healthier environment for both players and devs.

(Also, as a quick aside to answer your questions about the UI: it's an intermittent issue that seems to be completely random as to who it hits, how frequently it hits, and when it hits, which makes me suspect it's less of an issue with the actual implementation and more with some odd facet of hardware that it's interacting with (fairly uninformed opinion, I haven't personally worked with the UI from the dev side). I know I recall dealing with it near the start, when I had a shittier computer, but can't remember it happening in a long time, probably because I upgraded to something better. Ultimately the improvements to the UIs on moving from the old system to the new have been massive, a good example being the crafting machines, which I personally believe has been worth it especially now that the stability has improved, but I can recognise that if you're suffering from it much more frequently then your opinion probably varies on that front.)

[Qbopper]

i mean this completely genuinely as someone with no stake in it and who hasn't followed things closely: i think coders have a pr (lol) problem with the playerbase more than anything else considering the fact that people are actually asking "wait but what do non mso people even do"

also "peanut thread about coder/host drama devolved into some shit about a genocide irl" is peak tgstation forums shit

[Super Aggro Crag]

qbopper

[bastardblaster]

where did all the people who haven't played in 6 years crawl from