NEW RULE 12 OFFICIAL PLAYER REACTION THREAD !!LIVE!!

[RaveRadbury]

Bottom post of the previous page:

After a lot of deliberation, we have come up with a new rule in response to this thread.

Rule 12: This is a sandbox roleplaying game
The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules.

Rule 12 Precedents

• Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists. It is not empowering yourself to achieve personal goals, or taking measures to survive the shift
• Taking a few items beyond what you need to do your job is usually fine, especially if they're not needed by anyone else. Examples of okay items to take include taking a medkit from the public Medbay lobby or the insulated gloves from tech storage. Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.
• Genuine conflict with other players does not ruin the purpose of the game. Player conflicts will continue to be administrated in line with Escalation Rules.

Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Agree
Dragomagol: Agree
NamelessFairy: Agree - During the community meeting some of you may remember that I was opposed to rule 3 when it was brought up. To be clear I agree with some of the objectives set out by it but not the initial rule as a whole and I have over the past few weeks been working with my fellow headmins to change the rule into something that I think will still accomplish most of what it set out to accomplish while also making it something that I think will be more widely accepted.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

I figured this was already under the Golden Rule. I don't like this rule solely because it feels redundant.

It sets an expectation, and gives us admins something else to point to aside from r1.
rule 11 is redundant because not being a bigot kind of falls under not being a dick, however I would find it hard to argue that rule 11's implementation hasn't helped clean up the servers and discord.

Yes, it might be "redundant" in that we have a rule to already deal with this, but it's something to point to and something admins can and probably will use when previously applying rule 1 would be difficult to sustain. Rule 1 bans are a bitch.

[sinfulbliss]

If that's enough to make you give up and go scouring for antag you might want to hang up the red hat and relax for awhile.

It’s not giving up, it’s being efficient! Petty crimes do not really matter, once you get to things like mass assault and shocking brig doors only then it starts to matter.

If you don't want to arrest criminals, why are you playing sec?

The last time I saw you play sec you got in a war with the rest of sec for like 20min because one of them took your baton or something, until finally they lynched you. It’s petty squabbles like this that grinds sec to a halt and makes the antags have an easy round.

The command report does matter also. Sometimes it can be wrong but I find it very helpful most of the time.

[Stickymayhem]

I am in the grey tide rapids and I am using my stun baton as a paddle.

God this line physically ended my life

[Stickymayhem]

If that's enough to make you give up and go scouring for antag you might want to hang up the red hat and relax for awhile.

It’s not giving up, it’s being efficient! Petty crimes do not really matter, once you get to things like mass assault and shocking brig doors only then it starts to matter.

If you don't want to arrest criminals, why are you playing sec?

The last time I saw you play sec you got in a war with the rest of sec for like 20min because one of them took your baton or something, until finally they lynched you. It’s petty squabbles like this that grinds sec to a halt and makes the antags have an easy round.

The command report does matter also. Sometimes it can be wrong but I find it very helpful most of the time.

When are you people going to realize that security are and should be fucking COPS and not SOLDIERS. Huge difference in expectation, goals, competency and narrative potential. It is vastly more interesting to have a sec department full of failsons bickering as the station descends into madness than tgmc marines fully kitted huntervalidseeker destroyers patrolling the stations on meth dual wielding a baton and laser

[TheFinalPotato]

I figured this was already under the Golden Rule. I don't like this rule solely because it feels redundant.

Admins are afraid of shitcanning people, and need the rule backup to give them the strength

[Mothblocks]

The last time I saw you play sec you got in a war with the rest of sec for like 20min because one of them took your baton or something, until finally they lynched you. It’s petty squabbles like this that grinds sec to a halt and makes the antags have an easy round.

not going to lie, this sounds like a way more fun and entertaining story than security officer kills antags

[Mothblocks]

i highly doubt the admins are going to ban sec for doing their job

this is more going to be used for people who consistently powergame so hard they become genuinely unpleasant to play with, not people who just grab cable cuffs and a flash just in case they need to defend themselves

anyway this

[TheFinalPotato]

If you don't want to arrest criminals, why are you playing sec?

...makes the antags have an easy round.

Why is antags having an easy round a bad thing? It's not about winning or losing, it's about creating a good story, and antags evading detection and wiping the station, or being found by a wandering janitor is nowhere near the worse thing that can happen. Better then traitor gets shitcanned 30 minutes in, round ends with nothing else of note happening.

[tjatpbnj]

The last time I saw you play sec you got in a war with the rest of sec for like 20min because one of them took your baton or something, until finally they lynched you. It’s petty squabbles like this that grinds sec to a halt and makes the antags have an easy round.

You got most of that wrong, and it's irrelevant anyways. It has nothing to do with validhunting instead of arresting criminals. The fact that the problem you had with it was "making the antags have an easy round" shows that maybe you should take a step back from sec. Going by this, you are, quite literally, playing to win.

[Archie700]

If you want the pvp experience you desperately crave everytime you play sec go play TGMC or CM.

[sinfulbliss]

Why is antags having an easy round a bad thing?

This is a good question actually, made me think. I reckon it's bad because it means sec is not doing their job. It's good for the story if antags have to worry about security and have a formidable opposition.

From the Guide to Security wiki page:

As a Security Officer you are expected to fight any and every hostile force assaulting the station, from traitorous crew members to powerful reality defying Wizards to teams of "crack" syndicate assault forces. You must know how to counter any and all threats that are thrown at you, preferably with minimal force needed on your part. Remember, however, that not only is the station's peace at risk, but your very life is on the line; fail and you will die!

It is quite literally your job to hunt and thwart antagonists. It's not about winning, it's about keeping the station and the crewmembers safe. Speedrunning extended mode is bad and makes for a dull round, but if you do your job well and the antags aren't very good then you'll inevitably end up sapping most of the threat off the station. The solution for that is to let antags back into the round after catching them, and I've done this a lot on low-medpop. Or to turn a blind eye to minor antag activity (i.e. using combat gloves).

The other solution is to give antags stronger gear, nerf batons, etc. but that's a codebase issue.

If you want the pvp experience you desperately crave everytime you play sec go play TGMC or CM.

Really terrible faith comment. Believe it or not enjoying the combat aspect of the game doesn't mean you can't enjoy the roleplay aspect of the game.

[massa]

i'm vetoing this horrible rule!!!

[Timberpoes]

Rule 12 is not an overbearing rule.

It requires a player to ruin roleplay fun due to playing-to-win, and playing to win is narrowly defined.

If you're not ruining roleplay fun trying to accomplish your competitive win condition, then pretend rule 12 doesn't exist because it also doesn't apply to you.

In my experience, like 95% or more of the players who play will not (and have never) broken Rule 12. However it's very nice to get it written in stone that the purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying.

[massa]

this is 1984

in reality this rule is clearly for the most heinous of instances and behaviors and i don't think it applies even to our more competitive players. but admins, you gotta know that people will and should try to win. smiting the nebulous idea of 'playing to win' is honestly a questionable omen though

[cacogen]

You can't even get roundstart gloves from tech storage under this new rule lmao

[RaveRadbury]

You can't even get roundstart gloves from tech storage under this new rule lmao

Taking a few items beyond what you need to do your job is usually fine, especially if they're not needed by anyone else. Examples of okay items to take include taking a medkit from the public Medbay lobby or the insulated gloves from tech storage. Hoarding lots of station resources for poor reasons may break this rule and be handled administratively.

[oranges]

cacogen fell for my digg post

[toemas]

You can't even get roundstart gloves from tech storage under this new rule lmao

the rule literally explicitly says that you can do exactly this did you even read it

[tjatpbnj]

Why is antags having an easy round a bad thing?

This is a good question actually, made me think. I reckon it's bad because it means sec is not doing their job. It's good for the story if antags have to worry about security and have a formidable opposition..

Your job is not to hunt antags, though, its to arrest criminals and punish people for crimes. Just because you aren't proactively looking for and searching for antags doesn't mean you aren't doing your job, either.

And why wouldn't antags have to worry about security? They're still there, and they're still capable of catching them.

[Farquaar]

Sec will still give priority to antags over common troublemakers. This rule doesn't (and shouldn't) change that.

[ArcaneDefence]

cacogen fell for my digg post

[cacogen]

what post

i just can't read

[Stickymayhem]

what post

i just can't read

this is a powerful moment where it's physically impossible not to realize that you were objectively wrong

you might want to take advantage of it and consider literally every other opinion you've posted on this forum

[nianjiilical]

whenever people talk about using rule 0/1 to ban people the thing they have to realize is a rule 0/1 ban is an admin saying "i personally believe that the game would be better without this person and am removing them"

and when you do that you have to hope that not only do other admins agree with you, but that the community wont come after you for it if they disagree with your judgement

the more established rules like this we have the more concrete things we can point at to justify removing shitty players without having to waffle on it for 5 weeks trying to build up admin rapport and convincing ourselves it's the right play while they ruin the experience for people

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Sec's job is to catch criminals and punish them, and that includes everything from simple vandalism to attempted murder. If you're just playing sec solely to catch antags, I'd rather you play another role.

Only an absolute psychopath would arrest people for simple vandalism on LRP.

This is the way it worked for the first eight years of the server's existence. Prioritising serious crime makes sense, but giving a rude paramedic a 400 credit ticket for littering so the lawyer has something to do on a slow shift is also peak sec gameplay

[Archie700]

Real peak sec gameplay is a simple trespass resulting in 3 people dead

[cacogen]

what post

i just can't read

this is a powerful moment where it's physically impossible not to realize that you were objectively wrong

you might want to take advantage of it and consider literally every other opinion you've posted on this forum

i have bad eyesight and just skimmed the post

which has zero bearing on me blowing you the fuck out at every turn

[Stickymayhem]

what post

i just can't read

this is a powerful moment where it's physically impossible not to realize that you were objectively wrong

you might want to take advantage of it and consider literally every other opinion you've posted on this forum

i have bad eyesight and just skimmed the post

which has zero bearing on me blowing you the fuck out at every turn

you had a moment of forum post nut clarity and you wasted it

[sinfulbliss]

Real peak sec gameplay is a simple trespass resulting in 3 people dead

The funny thing is this happens all the time. Sec goes to arrest tider for simple trespass. One fellow tider and a concerned citizen in the halls try to free the tider. Sec attempts to arrest them all, they attempt to shovestun and steal the seccie's weapons, seccie kills two of them and then arrests the third who later succumbs to his wounds on the way to brig. So common it's scary... Although perhaps more common for the seccie to fail and get stripped of his baton and disabler by the tiders, then limp shoeless back to brig for replacements.

[Mothblocks]

Sec goes to arrest tider for simple trespass. One fellow tider and a concerned citizen in the halls join in helping said tider. Sec attempts to arrest them all, they attempt to shovestun and steal the seccie's weapons, seccie kills two of them and then arrests the third who later succumbs to his wounds on the way to brig.

all of this sounds like a fun and interesting story, especially since the tiders lost

[sinfulbliss]

Sec goes to arrest tider for simple trespass. One fellow tider and a concerned citizen in the halls join in helping said tider. Sec attempts to arrest them all, they attempt to shovestun and steal the seccie's weapons, seccie kills two of them and then arrests the third who later succumbs to his wounds on the way to brig.

all of this sounds like a fun and interesting story, especially since the tiders lost

I agree and am very happy to hear you express that opinion!! Sec-tider conflict never fails to keep rounds entertaining. I'd go so far as to say it's the core of LRP conflict.

[cacogen]

Sec goes to arrest tider for simple trespass. One fellow tider and a concerned citizen in the halls join in helping said tider. Sec attempts to arrest them all, they attempt to shovestun and steal the seccie's weapons, seccie kills two of them and then arrests the third who later succumbs to his wounds on the way to brig.

all of this sounds like a fun and interesting story, especially since the tiders lost

I agree and am very happy to hear you express that opinion!! Sec-tider conflict never fails to keep rounds entertaining. I'd go so far as to say it's the core of LRP conflict.

Truly sad for Dynamic if that’s the case (although it’s not like it wasn’t beforehand)

[Jonathan Gupta]

fortnite goes night night, tweleve night fortnight made it go night night.

[Itseasytosee2me]

If there is an exposed antagonist, such as a traitor with a .357 just chilling in the bar, can I beat the shit out of them?

What if I say "Get the hell off of my station syndie scum" first?

[Pandarsenic]

Yes, and double yes if you leave them alive but steal their gun

Triple yes if you steal their gun, they try to take it back, and you kill them with it.

[Mothblocks]

Killing antagonists is not playing to win, seeking them out before you know any exist with the intent to kill them to win is.

[NecromancerAnne]

Rule 1 is a little too arbitrary to be utilized as a ban reason anyway. More specific rules help with this. Would you feel worse being banned for

A) A rule that is so intentionally nebulous that frankly you might as say 'the admin shot from the hip here and thought this was punishment worthy but its all gut feeling'

B) A rule with precedent that helps demonstrate the expectations of the server and from which an admin could use to demonstrate how your behavior didn't follow this expectation

The process is obviously to help either players understand how to best fit in, to help admins guide those players by way of admin action (admin message, notes, bans, etc.), or demonstrate that maybe the server is not ideal for your way of playing.

Rule 1 is completely unhelpful for this process. It's mostly a thesis statement of the intent of the rules, but as a rule is entirely too broad to help with the actual process of reintegration for players.