greytider murders engineer in own department, engineer gets noted peanut

[iamgoofball]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31425
Sources:
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/181 ... e=game.txt
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/181 ... attack.txt
The fight, including Heisenberg's death in medbay.

04:06:45 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has attacked Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 46.5) (160, 158, 2) Engineering
04:06:47 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has attacked Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 31.5) (159, 153, 2) Engineering
04:06:48 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with the space beer (NEWHP: 86.5) (160, 151, 2) Engineering <- Hard stun + covering in flammable liquid.
04:06:48 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shaken Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (159, 151, 2) Engineering
04:06:51 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 73) (160, 151, 2) Engineering <- Lights the engineer on fire.
04:06:51 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shaken Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (159, 152, 2) Engineering
04:06:52 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 59.5) (160, 152, 2) Engineering
04:06:53 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 46) (160, 151, 2) Engineering
04:06:54 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shaken Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (159, 149, 2) Engineering <- Engineer tries to shove him away, moving away from the fight as he does this, see the coordinates on the attack.
04:06:55 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 35.9) (160, 150, 2) Engineering
04:06:56 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shoved Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (159, 151, 2) Engineering
04:06:58 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shoved Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (159, 153, 2) Engineering
04:06:58 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 22.4) (161, 154, 2) Engineering
04:06:59 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shoved Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (160, 154, 2) Engineering
04:07:00 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 8.9) (159, 156, 2) Engineering
04:07:00 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has shoved Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) (NEWHP: 31.5) (160, 156, 2) Engineering
04:07:05 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -4.6) (160, 152, 2) Engineering
04:07:06 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -18.1) (160, 151, 2) Engineering
04:07:07 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -31.6) (159, 150, 2) Engineering
04:07:09 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -41.7) (159, 150, 2) Engineering
04:07:10 ATTACK Julsruls/(Jordan Hutton) has attacked Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) with industrial welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -55.2) (159, 150, 2) Engineering
04:07:46 ATTACK IronTeapot/(Logan Cox) has grabbed Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) passive grab (NEWHP: -69.8) (159, 148, 2) Engineering <- Other engineer intervenes to rescue his coworker.
04:07:52 ATTACK IronTeapot/(Logan Cox) has grabbed Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -71.4) (160, 144, 2) Engineering
04:07:59 ATTACK IronTeapot/(Logan Cox) started fireman carrying Hans Heisenberg (160, 144, 2) Engineering
04:07:59 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) was fireman carried by Logan Cox (160, 145, 2) Engineering
04:08:48 ATTACK IronTeapot/(Logan Cox) is no longer being ridden by Hans Heisenberg (83, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
04:08:48 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) is no longer riding Logan Cox (83, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
04:08:56 ATTACK IronTeapot/(Logan Cox) Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) is being stripped of the engineering MOD control unit by IronTeapot/(Logan Cox) (82, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
04:08:56 ATTACK Oether/(Hadrian Wall) Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) is being stripped of the toolbelt by Oether/(Hadrian Wall) (83, 103, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
04:08:57 ATTACK Annihilite/(Hans Heisenberg) has died (BRUTE: 13.5, BURN: 171, TOX: 0, OXY: 24, CLONE: 0) (83, 104, 2) Medbay Treatment Center

Heisenberg hits the greytider, Jordan Hutton/JulsRuls twice with a welder.
The greytider then smashes a beer bottle over Heisenberg's head for a hard stun, picks up his welder, lights him on fire with it, and continues hitting him while Heisenberg tries to put the fire out. This results in Heisenberg's death in medbay due to his wounds while he's recieving treatment.

Please note that there was no use of the captain's sabre in this fight, the firestacks was what killed them so fast.

The greytider then proceeded to lie to security that he was the one hit with a bottle and that the engineer should be arrested instead.


Regarding the ID access the greytider was given by the HoP, I checked the logs on that.


Not only did the greytider not verbally request engineering access, they were also given the access by the HoP with the explicit request to greytide, aka commit crime. At no point in the HoP's chatlogs do they at all inform anyone or tell engineering that the assistant was given engineering access, except for the assistant themselves.

I'd also like to note the assistant said absolutely nothing about having access to engineering during the entire fight, including afterwards when he apparently followed them to medbay.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

IMO getting additional access from the HoP doesn't give you any more right to be in a department than asking the AI to open the door for you, let alone if the access was given unasked for with intent to griff.

[massa]

IMO getting additional access from the HoP doesn't give you any more right to be in a department than asking the AI to open the door for you, let alone if the access was given unasked for with intent to griff.

On our roleplaying game where we do our best to behave like we're on a space station, authorization from the #2 in the Chain of Command, whose chief duty is to grant access to personnel, is a valid reason to be in engineering and do what one wants in engineering, including take gear that isn't being used, as long as it isn't harming people, eclectic choice of entrance or not.

The engineers started the fight, their victim, who had this legitimate access granted from Command, resolved the issue in a way concurrent with space law, and the fine rules of the highly esteemed /tg/station13.

Goof and his war against """""""""""""""""""""""""tiders""""""""""""""""""""""""" is getting tiresome.

[RaveRadbury]

IMO getting additional access from the HoP doesn't give you any more right to be in a department than asking the AI to open the door for you, let alone if the access was given unasked for with intent to griff.

On our roleplaying game where we do our best to behave like we're on a space station, authorization from the #2 in the Chain of Command, whose chief duty is to grant access to personnel, is a valid reason to be in engineering and do what one wants in engineering, including take gear that isn't being used, as long as it isn't harming people, eclectic choice of entrance or not.

This scenario works better when the HOP gets permission from the appropriate head for access (paperwork HOP, fill out the form and get the signature) and informs the department of the new access. These are the kinds of small social interactions that keep things running smoothly and adds to the game experience.

[Valorium]

Should the engineer have called security to handle it? Probably.

Was the tider in the right? Certainly not.

[Super Aggro Crag]

should have gotten a note stamped by the CE and the HOP

[Jonathan Gupta]

I hate running for stamps cause when I get them the fucker makes me get 10 more, like im doing a fetch quest.

[datorangebottle]

If there's a broken open access panel on a door, or a busted windoor, and an assistant is milling around- yeah, he's probably tiding, kill him. But if he has access to the fucking doors on his own ID, it's either an agent ID(unlikely, very few people know how to properly use them) or the HoP let him in. Maybe don't try to murder someone who has legitimate access to your department.

Also, I like how goof's bringing up why he had engineering access when that's not relevant at all; Annihilite didn't know why he had engineering access.

should have gotten a note stamped by the CE and the HOP

"Hi, yes, please stop burning my face off, I have a note."
This works .01% of the time. The rest of the time you've given your opponent a damage advantage.

[Boot]

IMO getting additional access from the HoP doesn't give you any more right to be in a department than asking the AI to open the door for you, let alone if the access was given unasked for with intent to griff.

On our roleplaying game where we do our best to behave like we're on a space station, authorization from the #2 in the Chain of Command, whose chief duty is to grant access to personnel, is a valid reason to be in engineering and do what one wants in engineering, including take gear that isn't being used, as long as it isn't harming people, eclectic choice of entrance or not.

The engineers started the fight, their victim, who had this legitimate access granted from Command, resolved the issue in a way concurrent with space law, and the fine rules of the highly esteemed /tg/station13.

Goof and his war against """""""""""""""""""""""""tiders""""""""""""""""""""""""" is getting tiresome.

"I can't believe I was just gunned down by sec just because I walked into the armory don't they know that HOP gave me access im going to ahelp them." Is this the world you want to see?

[Kendrickorium]

>guy asked for access specifically to tide
>guy was WARNED to stay out
>guy that was warned was attacked after disregarding warning
>warned guy that disregarded warning crits/kills guy that warned him after gaining access that doesnt actually grant him access specifically to tide
>trialmin doubles down and continues attacking innocent engineer protecting his workplace

trialmins, why are you like this

[YBS]

We love a no-comms-straight-to-lethals escalation. You’re firing off like the assistant also didn’t have anything punitive happen to them.

I hate greytide to the point where I think people post XX hours should be locked out of assistant (unless all roles taken). In spite of that I feel like tee-ing off on someone with lethals right off the gate as non-antag is a misplay.

Overall this comes from shit comms which is a Terry staple - poor comprehension and expression skills backed with an emotional response.

Sort of like this post. Or you pinging in discord to try and drag the trialmin. Idk if I’d have done the same in their place but crossposting like this is as petty as the tone of the OP.

Edit: OP took a step back and admitted it which is +respect. You (Goof) shitting it up in discord and then basically triple-posting is cringe and you know it.

I'm not fully defending this note/the logic behind it, and I'm not against players defending players at all, but the initial execution of defense was pretty shitty.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

We love a no-comms-straight-to-lethals escalation.

Seems like plenty of justification, given the fact the other guy had already recieved verbal warnings and harmless throw-out, and it's not like the engineer came at him with a real weapon. I think it's unfair to present this as an isolated case given it was against a wordless serial offender.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

IMO getting additional access from the HoP doesn't give you any more right to be in a department than asking the AI to open the door for you, let alone if the access was given unasked for with intent to griff.

On our roleplaying game where we do our best to behave like we're on a space station, authorization from the #2 in the Chain of Command, whose chief duty is to grant access to personnel, is a valid reason to be in engineering and do what one wants in engineering, including take gear that isn't being used, as long as it isn't harming people, eclectic choice of entrance or not.

The engineers started the fight, their victim, who had this legitimate access granted from Command, resolved the issue in a way concurrent with space law, and the fine rules of the highly esteemed /tg/station13.

Goof and his war against """""""""""""""""""""""""tiders""""""""""""""""""""""""" is getting tiresome.

This is flat nonsense, and HoP's used to get their asses kicked by the other heads of staff (Who they do not outrank) and the Captain all the time when the greyshits they handed access to without asking looted/smashed/etc the departments. His duty is to grant appropriate access to personnel, he isn't the final arbiter of who's allowed in what room.

[Super Aggro Crag]

If there's a broken open access panel on a door, or a busted windoor, and an assistant is milling around- yeah, he's probably tiding, kill him. But if he has access to the fucking doors on his own ID, it's either an agent ID(unlikely, very few people know how to properly use them) or the HoP let him in. Maybe don't try to murder someone who has legitimate access to your department.

Also, I like how goof's bringing up why he had engineering access when that's not relevant at all; Annihilite didn't know why he had engineering access.

should have gotten a note stamped by the CE and the HOP

"Hi, yes, please stop burning my face off, I have a note."
This works .01% of the time. The rest of the time you've given your opponent a damage advantage.

its an rp game

[datorangebottle]

its an rp game

Yea, and if you really enjoy roleplaying being dead, you'll go through the effort of getting a note saying you're allowed to be in the place before going in and getting killed.

[YBS]

Seems like plenty of justification, given the fact the other guy had already recieved verbal warnings and harmless throw-out, and it's not like the engineer came at him with a real weapon. I think it's unfair to present this as an isolated case given it was against a wordless serial offender.

Unless I'm misreading the thread, new info seems to indicate that the person who received warnings/throw-out was actually a different person.
If that's not true then I stand corrected.

I could also understand that all masked up grey jumpsuits generally look the same if they're not rocking large hair.

[Super Aggro Crag]

its an rp game

Yea, and if you really enjoy roleplaying being dead, you'll go through the effort of getting a note saying you're allowed to be in the place before going in and getting killed.

ahelp him for RDM

[datorangebottle]

its an rp game

Yea, and if you really enjoy roleplaying being dead, you'll go through the effort of getting a note saying you're allowed to be in the place before going in and getting killed.

ahelp him for RDM

I'm gonna ahelp you for RDMing my brain cells in a second, here.

[Tearling]

If the headmins don't reverse this decision can I use this as precedent every time I get robusted when I tide into other people's departments? Asking for a friend.

[wesoda25]

I find it lame for headmins to step in while the admin seemed to still be talking to them. Maybe there’s something I don’t know, though.

[Turbonerd]

The CE could inform the engineering team of the new person getting access if HoP asked CE to stamp it and they approve. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume a greyshit that is not explaining what they're trying to achieve is just there to tide, and that their access is illicit.

The engineer's toolbelt is usually their only way to incapacitate a greytider. Calling security would be a better option, but sometimes the engineer would have to use the toolbelt if security doesn't come in time.

[Mothblocks]

I find it lame for headmins to step in while the admin seemed to still be talking to them. Maybe there’s something I don’t know, though.

That's fair enough, probably should wait for the admin to make a clear outcome next time

[wesoda25]

cool of you to say that

[Super Aggro Crag]

its an rp game

Yea, and if you really enjoy roleplaying being dead, you'll go through the effort of getting a note saying you're allowed to be in the place before going in and getting killed.

ahelp him for RDM

I'm gonna ahelp you for RDMing my brain cells in a second, here.

Why dont you ahelp yourself to some soap you trifling stank-ass

[Kendrickorium]

I hate greytide to the point where I think people post XX hours should be locked out of assistant (unless all roles taken).

interesting idea, but I think all it would do is force greytiders to roundstart with more tools at their disposal off the getgo

[sinfulbliss]

Funny thing is if he never ahelped the engi he would've never got noted to begin with. It's also really lame to note someone without giving the person a chance to discuss it unless they just d/c'd immediately.

As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job.

I don't think hitting the tider with a welder a few times was excessively interfering in their ability to do their job. Engi doesn't owe the tider the right to tide tools from their department.

Now here's an important note: You CAN STILL INTERFERE EXCESSIVELY but only IF you have valid reasoning to do so. The statement in the rule is an OR statement (in all caps) for a reason.
[...]
It should NOT be an and statement because that would eliminate an entire brand of IC conflict.

I bold this part because this is intended to be IC conflict. It never needed to be escalated by the admin. There wasn't even a wrong to right - the engi got murdered and the tider walked off with 30 HP, a few meshes will fix him up. And then the engi gets bwoinked retroactively because they instigated? The mindset behind this note would pretty much disallow any violent instigation whatsoever.

[Kendrickorium]

this is pretty much why trialmins should have no power whatsoever

no bans
no notes
no pushing buttons

all it does is lead to shit like this

[YBS]

this is pretty much why trialmins should have no power whatsoever

no bans
no notes
no pushing buttons

all it does is lead to shit like this

One or two contestable notes in easily 50-100+ tickets resolved?

1984. Trialmins should be judged by their ability to exist in observer in a liminal state of being.

We'll know they'll be good admins if no one sees them do anything, ever.

Oh shit I've been forum posti-

[Kendrickorium]

this is pretty much why trialmins should have no power whatsoever

no bans
no notes
no pushing buttons

all it does is lead to shit like this

One or two contestable notes in easily 50-100+ tickets resolved?

1984. Trialmins should be judged by their ability to exist in observer in a liminal state of being.

We'll know they'll be good admins if no one sees them do anything, ever.

Oh shit I've been forum posti-

why should players who are just trying to have fun have to suffer because a trialmin made an awful decision (many such cases)
they shouldnt be allowed to do anything other than boink unless there is a babysitter admin present

[YBS]

why should players who are just trying to have fun have to suffer because a trialmin made an awful decision (many such cases)
they shouldnt be allowed to do anything other than boink unless there is a babysitter admin present

Admins of every color can have their actions brought into question by appeals/complaints.

Those experiences can help shape a better admin.

The players 'suffer' at their own discretion if they don't bring it up in the same way that players suffer against other players making intentional or honest mistakes.

If they do, it becomes a point of discourse and improvement, at the price of having a conflict.

I think the system you are suggesting would lead to just fully promoted admins making these so-called 'awful decision's, seeing how they would have the same experience making autonomous decisions as when they started (none at all).

There is also plenty of crossing feedback from multiple admins that happens constantly behind the curtain already, so I don't think your mental image of 'rogue trialmin BANS EVERYONE (gore warning)' fits reality.

[Kendrickorium]

why should players who are just trying to have fun have to suffer because a trialmin made an awful decision (many such cases)
they shouldnt be allowed to do anything other than boink unless there is a babysitter admin present

Admins of every color can have their actions brought into question by appeals/complaints.

Those experiences can help shape a better admin.

The players 'suffer' at their own discretion if they don't bring it up in the same way that players suffer against other players making intentional or honest mistakes.

If they do, it becomes a point of discourse and improvement, at the price of having a conflict.

I think the system you are suggesting would lead to just fully promoted admins making these so-called 'awful decision's, seeing how they would have the same experience making autonomous decisions as when they started (none at all).

There is also plenty of crossing feedback from multiple admins that happens constantly behind the curtain already, so I don't think your mental image of 'rogue trialmin BANS EVERYONE (gore warning)' fits reality.

well, most of what I say on here is designed to get other people talking.
I'd LIKE to think graduated admins have a lot more ability to make sane decisions than trialmins, but its true, making mistakes is core to becoming better at literally anything

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Making mistakes of judgement is part of the learning process, good admins dont appear out of the ether.

[Tearling]

Making mistakes of judgement is part of the learning process, good admins dont appear out of the ether.

Where'd you come from then?

[toemas]

if you see see an assistant in your department and you immediately attack them then your honestly an autist and i have no sympathy for you when you get robusted. theres literally nothing wrong with the note

[BONERMASTER]

if you see see an assistant in your department and you immediately attack them then your honestly a hero and i have nothing but sympathy for you when you get banned. theres literally nothing wrong with killing assistants


With warm regards
-Former security main

[sinfulbliss]

One or two contestable notes in easily 50-100+ tickets resolved?

Tickets being resolved aren’t a good marker of admin performance IMO. You can open a ticket over literally anything, to gain insight into a situation, purely informational purposes, answering a question, etc.

A good marker is looking at the actual notes/bans that get doled out from the tickets, since that’s the place where the admin actually has to step in and do something. It’s not really the player’s place to judge admins based on that either, since we only see the ones that are appealed. This could be the 10th note the admin has given, it could be the 3rd note, who knows.

I do generally agree trialmins make mistakes with notes and bans more often than full admins, but that’s to be expected.