Puts secure SM shards as decorations for cargo, throws flashbangs, gets a 183 day ban peanut

[InfiniteGalaxies]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Weirdest Ban Appeal I've ever seen, also what a harsh admin jeez bro. Sybil moment.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31566

I saw this i just HAD to make a peanut of it

[NecromancerAnne]

Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.

I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.

[oranges]

it's a video game they're not being abused in real life

[jortsandshirts]

Thanks for that excellent observation orange.

[Misdoubtful]

it's a video game they're not being abused in real life

Just turn off the computer so they can't cyberbully you anymore

[Mothblocks]

I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.

Correction: You cannot start a complaint where the subject is the admin's banning conduct (meaning you are not documenting a genuine pattern of targeting/etc), unless your appeal is successful.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.

I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.

There's also a total lack of way to raise complaints with an admin's in-game behaviour, too. Unless it's egregious enough to warrant a Note or Ban (which the standards of which are probably going to be a little bit higher, because placing such against another admin probably seems incredibly daunting, especially due to the scrutiny that then puts on them) there's pretty much nothing you can do, even though admins should be held to a higher standard, and be the example of Good Behaviour. I've been a little tempted to make a policy thread suggesting we allow that in admin complaints (the rules specifically say they're only for Moderation and Administrative Abuse), but I see it being shut down instantly with "Do you really think people won't abuse it".

[cacogen]

it's a video game they're not being abused in real life

Just turn off the computer so they can't cyberbully you anymore

I don’t think Tyler ever developed object permanence based on that tweet

[Mothblocks]

Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.

I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.

There's also a total lack of way to raise complaints with an admin's in-game behaviour, too. Unless it's egregious enough to warrant a Note or Ban (which the standards of which are probably going to be a little bit higher, because placing such against another admin probably seems incredibly daunting, especially due to the scrutiny that then puts on them) there's pretty much nothing you can do, even though admins should be held to a higher standard, and be the example of Good Behaviour. I've been a little tempted to make a policy thread suggesting we allow that in admin complaints (the rules specifically say they're only for Moderation and Administrative Abuse), but I see it being shut down instantly with "Do you really think people won't abuse it".

What exactly do you have in mind that you would want to report on?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Actually one thing I will say on the parting words of the appeal. I actually think the whole admin ban appeal/admin complaint system is fucking flawed as hell. Know that if this was separated into an appeal AND a complaint on separate cases of misconduct this might have been potentially dismissed, because that kind of behaviour was usually derided behind the scenes. It was seen as being a complainer over the ban. It's not an intuitive process either, since a systematic targeting from an admin like this would probably mean that any administrative action from them would potentially be connected to the subject of the appeal.

I think this stems from "if you appealed a ban/note you can't use that as the subject of a complaint" even if that would mean accumulating bans is the safer option so you can make a complaint about it if you think you're being unfairly treated. This whole thing needs re-evaluation.

There's also a total lack of way to raise complaints with an admin's in-game behaviour, too. Unless it's egregious enough to warrant a Note or Ban (which the standards of which are probably going to be a little bit higher, because placing such against another admin probably seems incredibly daunting, especially due to the scrutiny that then puts on them) there's pretty much nothing you can do, even though admins should be held to a higher standard, and be the example of Good Behaviour. I've been a little tempted to make a policy thread suggesting we allow that in admin complaints (the rules specifically say they're only for Moderation and Administrative Abuse), but I see it being shut down instantly with "Do you really think people won't abuse it".

What exactly do you have in mind that you would want to report on?

I don't think Player Hub is exactly the place to recount the story, but maybe an admin's been toeing the line, maybe they actually are stepping over the rules but the admins involved don't want to deal with the situation because of the politics involved in noting/banning another admin. Perhaps there's a pattern in their admin conduct that's not particularly ideal, but their in-game conduct furthers that pattern. Having the ability to bring those behaviours to light would benefit. It'd still be up to the Headmins whether or not to do anything, and it'd still have to have a rather strict "Don't abuse this" clause, because I can see and agree a lot of people going "I don't like this admin they banned me, so I'm going to admin-complaint them for forgetting to put a timer on my brig cell during Rev-Blob-Wizard-Ops", but I think it'd be good for people to have a way to raise concerns. Maybe make it like Admin Applications where it can't be seen by most. People should be able to say "Hey, I'm a little bit concerned about this" and get it at least SOME attention, without having to just DM a Headmin and go "Hey can I talk about this?" especially for logging purposes, and avoiding potential Headmin Shopping (same reason you can't DM a specific admin and ask them to hop on and help with a ticket).

The idea hasn't had much time or thought put into it yet because I don't know if I even want to suggest it, but I think the ability to just Raise Your Concerns would go a long way.

[NecromancerAnne]

Correction: You cannot start a complaint where the subject is the admin's banning conduct (meaning you are not documenting a genuine pattern of targeting/etc), unless your appeal is successful.

See I think you've got a good enough and actionable grasp on things, but what I was talking about was the impression I myself drew from the rule, and I feel like was enforced in previous terms. It's maybe equally confusing to players.

This rule here is essentially the culprit of what I think might be some misunderstandings on what is kosher and what isn't, because it is just simply too general. Link here.

Alright, this is getting old, so im gonna end it once and for all.

New host ruling: Admin's banning conduct can not be the subject of an admin complaint. That is what appeals are for, and the appeal leading to the ban being overturn is the minimum bar required before a complaint can be filed that references the ban conduct.

One reading seems to prevent any complaints about conduct after an appeal has taken place but denied, if the subject was including banning conduct (which I think misconduct is included often in appeals). If someone did want to come back and highlight that there was a pattern of behaviour that was inclusive of the appealed ban as the catalyst, like this appeal was, then that could be closed as one interpretation. This means players could unwittingly lock themselves off from highlighting with patterned behaviour by making an appeal, or try and make an appeal later and attempt a complaint but also be burdened with a ban for the duration of a complaint, which tends to take longer to reconcile.

People want to play the game again as their priority. They do not want to play admin politics, which is often messy and results in a lot of targeted mistreatment and poking a hornets nest so to speak. So people will just bring up admin conduct in the appeals process as that is genuinely relevant to what they perceive is a factor in what is stopping them from enjoying the game they were playing.

[jortsandshirts]

See this shit is all sorts of confusing so what if a player is dead to rights in the wrong so their appeal gets denied but the admin is still way out of line in their conduct?
If the ban appeal is denied then I would have been like, ah shit no admin complaint.

I wonder what would have happened in this specific incident had I not added that addendum to my appeal in an effort to illustrate that the admin was factually a fucknut. It's weird how the burden of proof is so slanted against the player as well. Had I not appealed, or pushed the appeal to a headmin review I would be forever tainted with the residue so any subsequent admin dealings would be even more uphill given the dumb misleading notes and the outright labeling. The next admin to deal with me isn't going to deep-dive logs to see what was what so they would take what was written at face value and my cornhole would be forever destroyed.

Also this secret note shit. What kind of smelly hogwash is this. Your average spaceman may be walking around with an erroneous, misleading, and perhaps grudgy note attached to them that they cannot argue? That's a bit shit isn't it? Doesn't that kind of a system rely on checks and balances and or whatever I don't know anymore. It seems like a stupidass system given what happened here today. How do I know the other notes on me are accurate? I can't see em so I can't appeal em. Doesn't seem fair, balanced, transparent or such. Where's that iamgoofball guy who creates noise about these things.

I lay awake now at night thinking about what kind of residue someone may have put on me.

[Mothblocks]

If you hadn't appealed, nothing would've happened for a while.

If you hadn't made your addendum, it's very likely we would've found out anyway when investigating the appeal--the secret note was front and center.

[Mothblocks]

Also should note that all admins are trained to only use secret notes for truly sensitive matters, like suspicion of metacomming etc. 99.9% of players do not have secret notes. Fairly certain you don't have any other ones.