Maps are becoming too cramped

[iwishforducks]

What happened to the open and accessible floor plans of Delta’s and Icebox’s bar? Why do all of the department reworks put so many walls in? Why is the bar always hidden away? Where are the common spaces for space men to hang out? I feel like all of the new department reworks look swagger- don’t get me wrong- but they just feel so cramped and/or out of the way that it deincentivizes socialization and cool building projects.

[Jonathan Gupta]

so true.

[massa]

>delta's new service sector
>not "open" and is "too cramped"

if you want to lodge this complaint try not doing it about delta, and especially not its most open, vibrant, active, and vibe-rich new place. the remap was awesome, very comfy.

[Jonathan Gupta]

>delta's new service sector
>not "open" and is "too cramped"

if you want to lodge this complaint try not doing it about delta, and especially not its most open, vibrant, active, and vibe-rich new place. the remap was awesome, very comfy.

the kitchen on delta is a bit cramped, bar seems like it as well.

[massa]

>delta's new service sector
>not "open" and is "too cramped"

if you want to lodge this complaint try not doing it about delta, and especially not its most open, vibrant, active, and vibe-rich new place. the remap was awesome, very comfy.

the kitchen on delta is a bit cramped, bar seems like it as well.

there's a massive open space behind them, dining space, plenty of room for the bartender/chef to work? though the theater is a bit large, it could take a hit for the bar's sake

new delta's public sector is great specifically for building because it's so open

[Jonathan Gupta]

>delta's new service sector
>not "open" and is "too cramped"

if you want to lodge this complaint try not doing it about delta, and especially not its most open, vibrant, active, and vibe-rich new place. the remap was awesome, very comfy.

the kitchen on delta is a bit cramped, bar seems like it as well.

there's a massive open space behind them, dining space, plenty of room for the bartender/chef to work? though the theater is a bit large, it could take a hit for the bar's sake

new delta's public sector is great specifically for building because it's so open

the building is open, its blank space.

[iwishforducks]

my issue with delta’s new service is that there’s no *spot* and there’s plenty of things that are chopping up the area. i like the new theatre, though. the kitchen bar has been swept to the side and is honestly kind of small.

[iwishforducks]

also i forgot to mention that the kitchen and bar are two separate entities on nu-delta, hence the “there’s no *spot*”

[Alphanerdd]

I think certain departments being cramped is fine, but I 100% agree about stuff like the kitchen and bar.

On maps like icebox the bar is basically a graveyard since it's tucked away on another Z level.

Being able to see public areas like the bar/kitchen/chapel from the hallways is really important, since that's what attracts people to come and visit.

Some maps like tramstation will have glass floors letting you see down into the bar, but to be honest that doesn't make up for the fact its on a different level than everything else.

[RaveRadbury]

Tram and Icebox both need to make the bar on the main z-level. You need to be able to see that the bar is staffed and populated. Social service jobs need visibility to work.

[Annihilite111]

Icebox atmos has no damn space whatsoever. I'M NOT GOOD AT ATMOS I NEED FUCKING SPACE TO DO SHIT REEEEE

[massa]

Tram and Icebox both need to make the bar on the main z-level. You need to be able to see that the bar is staffed and populated. Social service jobs need visibility to work.

Tram needs to be one zlevel and 5 destinations

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The kitchen on Delta is very nearly perfect as someone whos been playing chef a lot recently

[san7890]

I think for IceBox and Tram, they probably went for the "speakeasy" feel for bars. I don't know if I'd like someone upending it for the kitchen to be on the lower z-level instead, since playing the cook is already enough pain as it is at the moment.

Meta and Kilo are the only one with a "spot" that you might be referring to, the "lounge" section. I think people gather where people want to gather as far as maps are concerned, but the bar tends to be a good spot to get fellow "Bar RPers".

More walls are typically put in because we realized having fuck-huge areas isn't the greatest option for navigating or forcing some player interaction. Something something atmospherics too. The more walls, the more rooms, and if each room has a discrete function that several people need at one time, the more they'll tend to be in there at the same time.

I'd like to see specific examples (photographs, please) on this subject since I am invested into it. Please do remember however, the only person likely to make changes to our maps is you. There's a lot of fair game as far as reworks are concerned, and while you can't please everyone with your changes (the Delta service rework has a great split in people who love it and people who hate it), you can always make something better.

PSST: If you go here: https://affectedarc07.github.io/SS13WebMap/, you can view all five maps /tg/ has in it's codebase without needing to download anything. I tend to parse things better when you guys provide photographs, so it'd be nice to provide pointers or eventually trap you guys lead you guys into mapping!

[CMDR_Gungnir]

IceBox's bar is my favourite one. Tram's is good too, but Icebox's layout just works better. That kind of like, hole-in-the-wall thing, or the speakeasy, as san referred to it.

It's a really good vibe and I'd much prefer they remain how they are, instead of being brought onto the main z-level and ruined. If someone wants to go to the bar, they'll walk down the stairs and see if anyone is there.

[sinfulbliss]

Tram and Icebox both need to make the bar on the main z-level. You need to be able to see that the bar is staffed and populated. Social service jobs need visibility to work.

Big agree. The whole point of the bar is to be a place to fraternize with your fellow spacemen, if it’s not right in your face as you go about your duties then it’s not accessible enough and will net little traffic.

Even after service was moved to the middle of Tram there was little to no bar activity. Icebox is a bit better but still has a similar issue. Especially if there’s any sort of atmos disturbance in which case you get the annoying skinny firelocks blocking the stairs off.

[san7890]

The atmos coders yell at us if we don't have skinny firelocks

[cacogen]

Everybody likes comfy tucked away Harry Potter bars like the one on Ice Box. And it’s certainly not cramped. My criticism of what they did to BoxStation is that the layout is unintuitive and there’s a lot of unused, dare I say it, liminal (transitory, like foyers or antechambers) spaces.

[Misdoubtful]

Yes and no. I like an area feeling full and lived in, but I like having the room for activities and projects. Surely there is a way to meet both?

[Shadowflame909]

Tram and Icebox both need to make the bar on the main z-level. You need to be able to see that the bar is staffed and populated. Social service jobs need visibility to work.

Tram needs to be one zlevel and 5 destinations

agreed. Tram definitely needs to be longer instead of fuller. Would make the tram feel like a sort of "escape manuver" for antags. And would make fights on the tram that much more fierce.

the lower z-level should be the entirety of that maps maint.

[cacogen]

that's true but tram also needs to be a circle

[san7890]

Tram has a few Multi-Z centric gimmicks (including the General Population Brig), so I don't really think it would make a great deal of sense to have it be flattened out again. In fact, if Tram were flat, it would just be a worse Delta (as far as being fuck-huge). It allows for some tightness between departments in a long station.

[BlueMemesauce]

Before, Delta Service was just one room with Bar, Kitchen, and Theater which made it a great place to hang out.
Now Delta Service is just a huge hallway where the Bar, Kitchen, and Theater are all separated from each other and were sectioned off to their own individual areas
It just feels like a mall with a bunch of different stalls and the huge hallway doesn't really feel like a place to hang out.

[cacogen]

why does the trainstation xbox hueg brig/permabrig need to be on a multi-z map to work

[massa]

Tram and Icebox both need to make the bar on the main z-level. You need to be able to see that the bar is staffed and populated. Social service jobs need visibility to work.

Tram needs to be one zlevel and 5 destinations

agreed. Tram definitely needs to be longer instead of fuller. Would make the tram feel like a sort of "escape manuver" for antags. And would make fights on the tram that much more fierce.

the lower z-level should be the entirety of that maps maint.

and make the tram go through space and maybe have space bridges if it gets busted, with holofans at both ends that self replenish

[san7890]

why does the trainstation xbox hueg brig/permabrig need to be on a multi-z map to work

Because it's set up in such a fashion where instead of timed cell sentences, you program a time onto that person's ID card (or something) and then toss them down the pit to mingle with the perma prisoners until their timed sentence is up.

-snip-
and make the tram go through space and maybe have space bridges if it gets busted, with holofans at both ends that self replenish

The Tram is just a modified elevator (yes), and elevators can not hold their own atmospherics. I doubt the tram will ever hold it's own atmospherics. The original plan was for the tram to travel through space with it being the only connection... but it is impossible for the tram to contain it's own atmospherics system both due to the fact that it is not possible within the code, and the fact that this new tax on the server's processing power would absolutely shitcan the prospect of maintainers ever considering putting it in the game out of performance concerns.

[cacogen]

why does the trainstation xbox hueg brig/permabrig need to be on a multi-z map to work

Because it's set up in such a fashion where instead of timed cell sentences, you program a time onto that person's ID card (or something) and then toss them down the pit to mingle with the perma prisoners until their timed sentence is up.

but the stuff to set the time on their ID and the locker you put their belongings in are on the same level as the brig itself? there's no obligation to throw people over the railing and it's disadvantageous as you have to go and get them out of the permabrig to put their ID on them and take their belongings if you do

[san7890]

-snip-

but the stuff to set the time on their ID and the locker you put their belongings in are on the same level as the brig itself? there's no obligation to throw people over the railing and it's disadvantageous as you have to go and get them out of the permabrig to put their ID on them and take their belongings if you do

Yeah

[Shadowflame909]

The Tram is just a modified elevator (yes), and elevators can not hold their own atmospherics. I doubt the tram will ever hold it's own atmospherics. The original plan was for the tram to travel through space with it being the only connection... but it is impossible for the tram to contain it's own atmospherics system both due to the fact that it is not possible within the code, and the fact that this new tax on the server's processing power would absolutely shitcan the prospect of maintainers ever considering putting it in the game out of performance concerns.

we will accept fake-space tile carpet for the visual immersion as an optimal replacement

[cacogen]

-snip-

but the stuff to set the time on their ID and the locker you put their belongings in are on the same level as the brig itself? there's no obligation to throw people over the railing and it's disadvantageous as you have to go and get them out of the permabrig to put their ID on them and take their belongings if you do

Yeah

So is there a part where you admit that the general population brig does not have to be multi-z to work, so it’s not preventing Tram becoming a single z level?

[blackdav123]

Tram and Icebox are my favorite maps because they are both multi Z and manhunts are much more fun with the kinds of escape routes they both have

[san7890]

-snip-

So is there a part where you admit that the general population brig does not have to be multi-z to work, so it’s not preventing Tram becoming a single z level?

Here I’ll tell you what I told goof the other day

► Show Spoiler

Sorry for the wall of text.

I actually tried to port Meta/Delta/Kilo to the new system earlier this year and I’m fully convinced for all three of those maps that it is fundamentally impossible (from a “design” perspective) to integrate GenPop Brigs on those three stations _in their current state_.

You would need to do a great deal of mapping work, and I’m not so certain that I would have any interest in the final product due to several confounding factors.

The warden’s office is _always_ pretty far from perma. In perma, the prisoners are sequestered and can’t really escape anywhere expect the vacuum of space or into the core of security. This allows them little oversight in their day-to-day plans, and might allow them privacy or the ability to plan to escape (which is a much harder task considering they start with nothing).

However, in stark contrast, the warden’s office is always positioned near the entrance of the brig with the time-gated cells so they can directly view and interact with the people in the cells (or we at least would like to assume they do). The people in the cells did not start with nothing, and could always be hiding a quick escape (either on their own person or in the form of a mob of other persons). Perma prisoners do not typically have this luxury afforded to them.

In order to rectify this to maintain parity, I would need to have the permabrig much closer, if not also adjacent to, the warden’s office (since the warden is the top guy as far as “maintaining custody”). Whoever would map this would have to take care to not inhibit the armory’s exposure to space (sterically or directally), and would require a complete departmental rework.

It’s much easier for Tram to do this because of it’s Multi-Z nature with the whole “Warden’s Office on the Brig Overlook” scheme. The warden has direct view of a glimpse of the GenPop prisoners, and can also readily access it without having to traverse a few hallways like the other four maps.

It’s an interesting mechanic, genpop: but I do not think it was ever designed to replace timed cells. It works as an alternative, and I’ve seen it be used, but it’s also really hard to work into a single-Z map.

In short: The genpop system is meant to work as an _alternative_ to the timed cell system. You would still need to do a _lot_ of work beyond just placing down the objects and removing the timed cells and calling it a day. I am still not certain if I would like the final product on Meta/Delta/Kilo regardless.

[cacogen]

It’s much easier for Tram to do this because of it’s Multi-Z nature with the whole “Warden’s Office on the Brig Overlook” scheme. The warden has direct view of a glimpse of the GenPop prisoners, and can also readily access it without having to traverse a few hallways like the other four maps.

I see what you mean. That's a good point.

But the genpop brig on Tram is very big (too big in my opinion) and the warden's floor holes only cover a very small part of it. The warden can look through their cameras, but a lot of the time it can be time-consuming to find where the prisoners are (they should have motion sensors that show on the UI imo) and to follow any commotion with the regular camera console UI (compared with the advanced camera console, which would be a breeze) and there's always the possibility of one or more of the cameras being out or the prisoners being off-camera.

My point is that even on Tram the warden can only reliably see a very small part of the genpop brig. And you could create something similar to the overlook on Tram if you put the genpop brig adjacent to the warden's office, with glass for him to look through (though this would probably require very creative reshuffling of the maps). So I don't think the genpop brig not being a panopticon is an argument against it being brought to single-z stations. And I think the advanced camera console only for the permabrig (with deliberate camera blindspots for prisoners, of course) would be a good fix for this issue.