/tg/Station 13

I don't know about this guys..if I can't have a medikit, a crow-bar, and a surgical drill in my backpack. How the heck am I gonna prevent myself from turning horizontal? 0/10 don't approve. Serious btw.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66926

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66927

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/66900

I think the baton related changes will be good. Antags will always be able to know if someone has a stun baton will help with avoiding fights and knowing when to go guns blazing. While some people are saying that it will make some antags harder, I think the complete reliance on stun batons has been unhealthy for balance and eventually after losing for a while due to being batonless, antags might actually be given weapons worth using.

why are coders so hellbent on stomping all over player creativity and freedom, this is frustrating and retarded, having to choose between a toolbelt or a baton is not going to improve the game in any feasible way, they're just making it more and more difficult for antags and the like to do interesting gimmicks and effect the round

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:55 pm why are coders so hellbent on stomping all over player creativity and freedom, this is frustrating and retarded, having to choose between a toolbelt or a baton is not going to improve the game in any feasible way, they're just making it more and more difficult for antags and the like to do interesting gimmicks and effect the round

No one will be able to get in their way of making a fart gas hyperloop for the 1238434525th time if you can only hold weapons in-hand (which makes you very obvious to sec)

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm I think the baton related changes will be good. Antags will always be able to know if someone has a stun baton will help with avoiding fights and knowing when to go guns blazing. While some people are saying that it will make some antags harder, I think the complete reliance on stun batons has been unhealthy for balance and eventually after losing for a while due to being batonless, antags might actually be given weapons worth using.

this doesnt fix batons being overpowered. it just makes it impossible for antags to carry them discreetly

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:55 pm why are coders so hellbent on stomping all over player creativity and freedom, this is frustrating and retarded, having to choose between a toolbelt or a baton is not going to improve the game in any feasible way, they're just making it more and more difficult for antags and the like to do interesting gimmicks and effect the round

I dunno, officers not being able to carry the station's entire supply of stun batons in their bag just in case they run out of power, get disarmed, or need to stunlock someone all the way to the brig seems like it would restrict antagonists less.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 10:00 pm I dunno, officers not being able to carry the station's entire supply of stun batons in their bag just in case they run out of power, get disarmed, or need to stunlock someone all the way to the brig seems like it would restrict antagonists less.

it is not going to make a significant impact on the effectiveness of security. it still owns you in two hits. as a security player myself i never bother to carry more than one baton anyway. Also are you aware that this doesnt prevent you from putting batons in your secbelt? Nothing is stopping you from just filling your belt with batons.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 10:00 pm

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:55 pm why are coders so hellbent on stomping all over player creativity and freedom, this is frustrating and retarded, having to choose between a toolbelt or a baton is not going to improve the game in any feasible way, they're just making it more and more difficult for antags and the like to do interesting gimmicks and effect the round

I dunno, officers not being able to carry the station's entire supply of stun batons in their bag just in case they run out of power, get disarmed, or need to stunlock someone all the way to the brig seems like it would restrict antagonists less.

You know you can still put them on the belt right

Yes, that's what I always wanted, less space in my bag to put things in.
Now I can finally start to have fun!


With funny regards
-BONERMASTER

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:58 pm this doesnt fix batons being overpowered. it just makes it impossible for antags to carry them discreetly

^Security can put as many on their belt as they want and have freedom to carry batons openly. Why is another antag nerf coming on the heels of progtraitor?

Agreed. Forcing antags into using lethals because only sec can carry the alternatives without causing suspicion is a real crash in the wall of game design choices lately

>Nerf antags access to lethal weapons to make rounds go on longer/Revive the targets the antags do kill

>Now this pr wants to nerf antags access to stun batons (need a sec-belt to carry them)

Its weird

A series of mild dread inducing PRs. How nice. If belts are to be nerfed they're basically inferior to boxes already then boxes are going to be nerfed. Already hate being CMO / acting captain for the ammount of crap I get expected to carry around. Guess i'll need another box to carry my medical tools in if i can't bag a belt.

Still, at least on the positive side... hmm.

Make internals box bulky (it's OP) (I died).

I chronically carry a fully loaded toolbelt and secbelt in my bag how dare they do this

Antags must now open-carry batons on the belt slot and follow bushido code when faced with an officer

I want to note how funny the wording between the belt pr and the baton pr are

Baton PR is controversial but there are mixed opinions on it, so the "why its good for the game" is "Players have requested this change and I feel it's worth trying out. Batons overperform anyways, and players need to get used to having less inventory space."

A very reasonable offer, intended to be legitimate argument on why its good for the game.

Compare this to the belt pr: "We already have problems with too much inventory space on the average spaceman, this is just pushing it into egregious territory with this obvious oversight."

belts are EVIL and they are coming for you

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 11:44 pm players need to get used to having less inventory space.

This sucks shit actually

If the inventory isn't going to be a full-on minigame with items of different sizes and shapes like Resident Evil Briefcases or wherever Jensen keeps his stuff in the new Deus Ex games, I don't want my inventory space getting further devalued.

antags having access to stealth batons is good, this just sucks.

we should replace antags being forced to have batons at all times to play the game with antags having weapons that can crit crew members in under six hits (heretic blade sucks btw)

Maybe, maybe not everyone needs to carry an entire armoury, hospital, and workshop in their bag? It's a crazy idea, I know, but maybe limiting the amount of crap people can carry could give doctors, engineers, and security officers more purpose into a round, instead of everyone doing everyone's job because they can do everything without even having to fetch anything.

Goof moment.

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:58 am Maybe, maybe not everyone needs to carry an entire armoury, hospital, and workshop in their bag? It's a crazy idea, I know, but maybe limiting the amount of crap people can carry could give doctors, engineers, and security officers more purpose into a round, instead of everyone doing everyone's job because they can do everything without even having to fetch anything.

Can't say the game doesn't require that fact though, or leaves it up on the table. Otherwise they might go full skill-chip med, where you cant fire a gun without a sec chip. or use a medikit without a doctor chip

HOLY SHIT HOW ABOUT THEY FUCKING WORK ON MAKING THE GAME MORE FUN

>PLAYERS HAVE REQUESTED THIS

PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT GETTING DUNKED BY BATONS "REQUESTED" THIS


JUST DONT FUCKING GET HIT
ITS NOT THAT HARD

Making things bulky as a means of balance results in incredibly clunky inventory management and is just lazy.

Answers in "Why It's Good For The Game" need to be held to much higher standards than these PRs provide.

The only one that's acceptable is the Jaws PR, which at least tries but doesn't explain why upgrades can't just be upgrades.

yeah I dont care if jaws are bulky. More power to them

Welding tool and others, most definitely because why even use it if I cant store it with the rest of my tools? I don't tend to have problems with industrial and the others and I find myself forgetting about the experimental version several rounds over because i just dont run out of fuel, or if I do its a one click re-fuel.

Stun Baton change will just break all the antags that we're added/weakened

stop please goof you don't play dude CODERS DON'T PLAY BUT THEY'RE "BALANCING" THE FUCKING GAME. IT IS NOT A PROBLEM THAT A SAW DOES A LOT OF DAMAGE.

there are no good downstreams anymore that undo bad decisions like this. also, for the record, inventory management simulators where you get cucked by le funny item slots is pure dogshit design. it's not a good way to "balance" games.

We already have inventory management where you have to guess whether an item will fit into a container or not. Giving /tg/station a form of inventory management similar to Colonial Marines where you can visualise based on the size of the tile of the item what can fit in which containers would only be a usability improvement.

I think that we should be moving players to make more active decisions regarding what they can shove up their ass instead of hoovering up everything because our inventory system is so fucked you can reasonably carry almost everything you need if you minmax storage, to say nothing about the existence of fucking smuggler's satchels.

I don't like the stun baton change though- everyone you meet in an isolated area should potentially be able to surprise hardstun you and drag into maint. it's a significant part of what fuels the video game's paranoia and lethality.

mmm yes put your medical tools in a belt itll be fine
oh wait the belt also cannot fit in your bag even though its already a (roundstart) limited resource

these prs smell fr

Wear the belt on your belt slot where they're supposed to be, simple!

Put the belt in your belt slot then, simple!

This doesn’t affect sec at all since the baton always goes in your belt. Just furthers the cuckening of antags, which are already way too weak and overpowered by sec. If you’re antag and you have a baton in your belt that’s going to get you arrested, just as if you had a fuckin silenced makarov there. Maybe bring back collapsible contractor baton as an uplink item and it can work.

The belt PR doesn’t “balance” storage space, it’s just gonna be annoying now. People will fill boxes with the same items the belts had. Forget advanced tools if they require your belt slot (CE would do well to have his extended telebaton there, especially if it can’t be extended in bag anymore).

Also mildly annoying for captain and CMO, who have telebatons but also an occupied belt slot (cap sabre, compact defib). Mildly annoying for head roles but pretty damning for antags. If this is merged I foresee antags all rushing capes to hide their suit storage slot for their stolen baton. Or more likely just not getting batons since it makes them valid salad and being outmatched in every encounter.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 5:34 pm This doesn’t affect sec at all since the baton always goes in your belt. Just furthers the cuckening of antags, which are already way too weak and overpowered by sec. If you’re antag and you have a baton in your belt that’s going to get you arrested, just as if you had a fuckin silenced makarov there. Maybe bring back collapsible contractor baton as an uplink item and it can work.

You know this problem would not exist if antags were immune to stuns

tjatpbnj wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 5:43 pm You know this problem would not exist if antags were immune to stuns

Bring back adrenals!!

Can we have some power creep please

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 5:35 am Answers in "Why It's Good For The Game" need to be held to much higher standards than these PRs provide.

The only one that's acceptable is the Jaws PR, which at least tries but doesn't explain why upgrades can't just be upgrades.

Mothblocks wrote:Your "why this is good for the game" does not seem to adequately address this concern and I would like for you to give a counterargument to this.

Exceedingly curious to see how goof replies

... Can iamgoofball even see into the Players Club?

We've just lost one battle my anti-space reduction comrades. But it seems like one of the most important changes being made is going in our favor, while the last one isn't looking so good.

Honestly I rarely even use tier 3 tools unless they're out in the open near me, or there's a reason too, like blob. Tier 1.5/2 tools are really good and the perfomance boost is negligible. Makes it worse that they got nerfed though.

I do use stun batons as nearly every on-station roundstart antag I play, except for changeling because they have counters for everything. I hope that one doesnt get merged in its current state.

why is goof even allowed to make prs at this point

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 3:36 am JUST DONT FUCKING GET HIT
ITS NOT THAT HARD

this tbh

dude i fucking hate bike shedding

like seriously when will airlock hell be fixed this is getting ridiculous

I don't like not having enough bag room to carry stuff around. Like, the old days of "literally the entire armory could be bagged up into a single backpack with enough effort" was stupid and dumb, but the idea that it should be impossible to carry more than one set of fairly basic stuff around that some people have been proponents of seems dumb. As we move towards specialist tools being more and more of a hard gear-check, it seems wrong to simultaneously insist that people should have to give up their ability to carry any other stuff. Anything left unattended for more than a few minutes gets stolen in most departments, too.

you dont get it nerfing toolbelts will save us from monsters having 6 toolbelts full of stuff and all the people who do this currently (see addendum 4 for long list of people who do this) and they wont have any other ways to hold a lot of things (boxes and paper sacks full of tools is a myth, stop making things up)

We're going towards an era of only being able to carry job related items. Since satchels are being used as a counter to space reduction.

Pretty lame.

thomanthewise5404 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:58 pm

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Thu May 12, 2022 9:49 pm I think the baton related changes will be good. Antags will always be able to know if someone has a stun baton will help with avoiding fights and knowing when to go guns blazing. While some people are saying that it will make some antags harder, I think the complete reliance on stun batons has been unhealthy for balance and eventually after losing for a while due to being batonless, antags might actually be given weapons worth using.

this doesnt fix batons being overpowered. it just makes it impossible for antags to carry them discreetly

Chameleon toolbelts

i posted a size comparison in the toolbelt and baton thread

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:58 am Maybe, maybe not everyone needs to carry an entire armoury, hospital, and workshop in their bag? It's a crazy idea, I know, but maybe limiting the amount of crap people can carry could give doctors, engineers, and security officers more purpose into a round, instead of everyone doing everyone's job because they can do everything without even having to fetch anything.

doing this kind of shit is how you kill servers btw

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri May 13, 2022 2:58 am Maybe, maybe not everyone needs to carry an entire armoury, hospital, and workshop in their bag? It's a crazy idea, I know, but maybe limiting the amount of crap people can carry could give doctors, engineers, and security officers more purpose into a round, instead of everyone doing everyone's job because they can do everything without even having to fetch anything.

If only there were a server that banned people from doing other people's jobs. If only there were a place where, people weren't allowed to just do everything themselves like singleplayer.

Oh wait we do it's Manuel!! Preserve player freedom on LRP and leave that shit in MRP tyvm. (Nothing wrong with MRP, also.)

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 9:43 pm If only there were a server that banned people from doing other people's jobs. If only there were a place where, people weren't allowed to just do everything themselves like singleplayer.

Oh wait we do it's Manuel!! Preserve player freedom on LRP and leave that shit in MRP tyvm. (Nothing wrong with MRP, also.)

The further I get from my post-admin haze the more I agree with this. MRP does a pretty good job of policing itself, we should just let LRP be mechanical NRP with “naming conventions”. Trying to reel it in mechanically or by adminship to more than that is basically a colossal headache that the majority of admins and players don’t agree with.

But also asking MRP admins to basically bag observe and go “tut tut take those loaded belts out of your pack” would probably still go to appeals and a 2 page peanut thread.

Leaving code as the only operable solution. Basically belt PR good Baton PR needs work. The bodybags-and-belts-in-bags was always stupid.

ionno theres plenty of things i have opinions on but honestly i kinda like these prs

Massive organ thief nerf. The only way i can think of to keep both your ability to hack into places and to be able to steal people's livers is to prepare a certain spot in maint where you stash your gear, which massively impacts your ability to improvise in a situation where people are very likely to be actively hunting you