/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32095

>Doesn't know how heretic works
>Notes Antag for round removing one (1) SSD person
>Player gets mad
>This somehow wasn't solved in ahelp??

Outlandishly ridiculous.
The guy was apparently being a dick in ahelps, which isn't justified but I get it. This wouldn't even be a questionable moment on Manuel.
We can only wonder if there is any sort of meta shit going on? Its probably just a vekter moment.

I'm actually losing my mind here. How is an antag getting noted for killing someone even if they're SSD? Next time I'm about to get grabbed by a heretic do I just close the game and gain admin protections? Who the fuck keeps letting Vekter onto Sybil?

Rule page on the Wiki wrote: 4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Except metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.

where is no killing afk lads in here?

Boot wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:31 am I'm actually losing my mind here. How is an antag getting noted for killing someone even if they're SSD? Next time I'm about to get grabbed by a heretic do I just close the game and gain admin protections? Who the fuck keeps letting Vekter onto Sybil?

Rule page on the Wiki wrote: 4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Except metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals.

where is no killing afk lads in here?

Plus he was the heretic's target. Not much point in discussing whether or no the note was justified. Anyone could tell you that its not.

This ability to continously demonstrate the complete lack of proper judgement, or any understanding of the rules for that matter, and still not getting kicked out of the admin team, is honestly impressive. I think we're looking at the next big CEO right here.


With admiring regards
-BONERMASTER

I know he fucked up massively, but can we not publicly shame the guy? by the looks of it it was a misunderstanding which can occur

Vekters fine. They can be a little hasty with the banhammer but they do respond to appeals quickly.

I think the admin PMs would shed some light on this but it's already resolved so who cares.

singular note that was resolved in under 30m because vekter thought that it was lame that someone would die while not being given a chance to fight back
it is lame but that's rule 10 for you w/e - he dropped it after having a bit of confusion re: thinking that a heretic just picked a SSD target on purpose
not even any inhibition of being able to play because it wasn't even a ban

tl;dr VEKTER IS LITERALLY THE ANTICHRIST HOW IS HE BEING LET OUT OF HIS CAGE???? HEADMINS I LVEAV THIS IN YOUR HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that mobile game vector is pretty tough

while vector the crocodile is iconic

So I will leave the choice up to that

I'm not gonna reveal the ahelp but calling the players attitude in it "extremely hostile" is a bit over-the-top.

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:03 pm I'm not gonna reveal the ahelp but calling the players attitude in it "extremely hostile" is a bit over-the-top.

Well now you're just teasing us by saying that but not revealing it.

I guess mothblocks called them out on it in the appeal too though so I believe it.

I would like to replace Vekter with YBS.

jesus christ vekter

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:55 am Vekters fine. They can be a little hasty with the banhammer but they do respond to appeals quickly.

I think the admin PMs would shed some light on this but it's already resolved so who cares.

I'm glad Vekter has found a place where he can be appreciated. The uwu'ing catgirl crowd over at Manny. Please do your best to keep him over there, let him know how much you need him over there so he doesn't stray.

It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

Uh oh!!
Look who has posted in his own peanut thread!!

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

I think I might be looking at the wrong ticket, can you share the link of what was so rude?

Timonk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:01 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

Uh oh!!
Look who has posted in his own peanut thread!!

I could not care less, if you're going to talk shit, don't be shocked when someone comes along to defend themselves.

Timonk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:01 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

Uh oh!!
Look who has posted in his own peanut thread!!

He crossed subforum lines!

Boot wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:01 pm

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:55 am Vekters fine. They can be a little hasty with the banhammer but they do respond to appeals quickly.

I think the admin PMs would shed some light on this but it's already resolved so who cares.

I'm glad Vekter has found a place where he can be appreciated. The uwu'ing catgirl crowd over at Manny. Please do your best to keep him over there, let him know how much you need him over there so he doesn't stray.

Imagine missing the point this hard.

Timonk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:01 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

Uh oh!!
Look who has posted in his own peanut thread!!

fascinating observation

Timonk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:01 pm Uh oh!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_SRvFavJ-c

I really don’t get the mental breakdown people are having over this.

I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve. Surely almost everyone here has had that moment where they disconnect and then reconnect a minute later to find you had been murdered and thought “that was shitty”. Even if you had a moment like that and immediately followed your thought up with “but that’s part of the game” you still should surely be able to see the attempt to make the game more enjoyable for the players. It’s entirely possible for people to come in here and say “I disagree with this note” without calling for Vekter’s public execution moments later.

Also where the fuck did this mentality come from, where wanting to find a way for people to have more fun with this sandbox roleplaying game got you branded as a Manuelmin trying to stomp on innocent Sybil players?

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:13 pm

Timonk wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:01 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:36 pm It wasn't extremely hostile but he was pretty damn rude.

Also >appeal already resolved >make peanut anyway

Uh oh!!
Look who has posted in his own peanut thread!!

I could not care less, if you're going to talk shit, don't be shocked when someone comes along to defend themselves.

You posted again nerd

NoxVS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:07 am I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve.

Nox, I am just not sure what the note is trying to achieve. Because as far as I can tell, as a humble player class user, I would have looked at 1. Antag? 2. LRP? and that would have been the end of my involvement.
If the player that was killed was SSD, then that also means that Vekter started the bwoink on his own volition and went out of his way to punish him on his own accord. I mean, that sounds like misconduct to me, if we are being honest.

So in that light, what exactly would I be sympathetic towards?


With curious regards
-BONERMASTER

NoxVS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:07 am I really don’t get the mental breakdown people are having over this.

I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve. Surely almost everyone here has had that moment where they disconnect and then reconnect a minute later to find you had been murdered and thought “that was shitty”. Even if you had a moment like that and immediately followed your thought up with “but that’s part of the game” you still should surely be able to see the attempt to make the game more enjoyable for the players. It’s entirely possible for people to come in here and say “I disagree with this note” without calling for Vekter’s public execution moments later.

Also where the fuck did this mentality come from, where wanting to find a way for people to have more fun with this sandbox roleplaying game got you branded as a Manuelmin trying to stomp on innocent Sybil players?

Personally I'm not a big fan of admins giving people poorly justified rule 0 notes/bans.

NoxVS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:07 am I really don’t get the mental breakdown people are having over this.

I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve. Surely almost everyone here has had that moment where they disconnect and then reconnect a minute later to find you had been murdered and thought “that was shitty”. Even if you had a moment like that and immediately followed your thought up with “but that’s part of the game” you still should surely be able to see the attempt to make the game more enjoyable for the players. It’s entirely possible for people to come in here and say “I disagree with this note” without calling for Vekter’s public execution moments later.

Also where the fuck did this mentality come from, where wanting to find a way for people to have more fun with this sandbox roleplaying game got you branded as a Manuelmin trying to stomp on innocent Sybil players?

2 reasons

1- it seems to be Vekter a lot
2- manuelmins are the guides to "proper" roleplay, and if a players roleplay in an 8 bit pixel game is deemed "wrong" they get punished (the recent name appeal thread is a good example) this applies even moreso when the roleplaying admins step onto the light roleplaying servers.

for the record though, I agree with the note. if an 8 bit pixel spaceman is just standing there and doesnt react at all to you MURDERING him, take a quick look to see if hes even connected. and by god if hes disconnected, stuff him in a locker and hope he comes back for you to murder at a later time. you don't have to be unpolite about murder in this game.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:51 pm for the record though, I agree with the note. if an 8 bit pixel spaceman is just standing there and doesnt react at all to you MURDERING him, take a quick look to see if hes even connected. and by god if hes disconnected, stuff him in a locker and hope he comes back for you to murder at a later time. you don't have to be unpolite about murder in this game.

normally? yes. but if your target happens to be SSD, for an antag like heretic (that requires you to repeat this several times), i wouldn't blame you for killing them anyways.
unless you're actively looking for who's SSD and rerolling until you get them, it's tough luck

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:51 pm

NoxVS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:07 am I really don’t get the mental breakdown people are having over this.

I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve. Surely almost everyone here has had that moment where they disconnect and then reconnect a minute later to find you had been murdered and thought “that was shitty”. Even if you had a moment like that and immediately followed your thought up with “but that’s part of the game” you still should surely be able to see the attempt to make the game more enjoyable for the players. It’s entirely possible for people to come in here and say “I disagree with this note” without calling for Vekter’s public execution moments later.

Also where the fuck did this mentality come from, where wanting to find a way for people to have more fun with this sandbox roleplaying game got you branded as a Manuelmin trying to stomp on innocent Sybil players?

2 reasons

1- it seems to be Vekter a lot
2- manuelmins are the guides to "proper" roleplay, and if a players roleplay in an 8 bit pixel game is deemed "wrong" they get punished (the recent name appeal thread is a good example) this applies even moreso when the roleplaying admins step onto the light roleplaying servers.

for the record though, I agree with the note. if an 8 bit pixel spaceman is just standing there and doesnt react at all to you MURDERING him, take a quick look to see if hes even connected. and by god if hes disconnected, stuff him in a locker and hope he comes back for you to murder at a later time. you don't have to be unpolite about murder in this game.

It's like the school in spy x family where they are expecting true class from the children

You have to actually unlock the ability to reroll your targets too and if there's multiple heretics the other influences can already be nabbed.

If you are ssd and reconnect to being murdered just go play another server (I did that when my computer crashed and i rejoined and was dead)

if I have been stalking my target waiting for them to be in a secluded area and the instant they are they go ssd im just taking the freebie

Timonk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:52 pm

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:51 pm

NoxVS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:07 am I really don’t get the mental breakdown people are having over this.

I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve. Surely almost everyone here has had that moment where they disconnect and then reconnect a minute later to find you had been murdered and thought “that was shitty”. Even if you had a moment like that and immediately followed your thought up with “but that’s part of the game” you still should surely be able to see the attempt to make the game more enjoyable for the players. It’s entirely possible for people to come in here and say “I disagree with this note” without calling for Vekter’s public execution moments later.

Also where the fuck did this mentality come from, where wanting to find a way for people to have more fun with this sandbox roleplaying game got you branded as a Manuelmin trying to stomp on innocent Sybil players?

2 reasons

1- it seems to be Vekter a lot
2- manuelmins are the guides to "proper" roleplay, and if a players roleplay in an 8 bit pixel game is deemed "wrong" they get punished (the recent name appeal thread is a good example) this applies even moreso when the roleplaying admins step onto the light roleplaying servers.

for the record though, I agree with the note. if an 8 bit pixel spaceman is just standing there and doesnt react at all to you MURDERING him, take a quick look to see if hes even connected. and by god if hes disconnected, stuff him in a locker and hope he comes back for you to murder at a later time. you don't have to be unpolite about murder in this game.

It's like the school in spy x family where they are expecting true class from the children

i only watch hunterxhunter

ah, my bad, i have no idea how heretics work since that one time i rolled it asked dean for help and he killed me saying it was a teaching moment

BONERMASTER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:02 pm

NoxVS wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:07 am I feel like even if you disagree with this being a note, you should be able to be sympathetic for what it was trying to achieve.

Nox, I am just not sure what the note is trying to achieve. Because as far as I can tell, as a humble player class user, I would have looked at 1. Antag? 2. LRP? and that would have been the end of my involvement.
If the player that was killed was SSD, then that also means that Vekter started the bwoink on his own volition and went out of his way to punish him on his own accord. I mean, that sounds like misconduct to me, if we are being honest.

So in that light, what exactly would I be sympathetic towards?


With curious regards
-BONERMASTER

This an example of MRP creep coming to LRP servers and to be honest it's why Manuel was probably a mistake.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:45 am This an example of MRP creep coming to LRP servers and to be honest it's why Manuel was probably a mistake.

There has never been any MRP creep coming to LRP servers. LRP is still roleplay, and rule 12 existed ages before Manuel ever did, it just got dropped and some point and had to be added back to remind people of the old ways.

You have always been playing a roleplaying server. You will roleplay and you will like it.

Rohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:43 pm Personally I'm not a big fan of admins giving people poorly justified rule 0 notes/bans.

Could probably argue it is rule 12, not rule 0. And the justification is probably "its really fucking lame to get DCed for a minute and return to find you had been murdered". Can we all at least agree that this is kinda lame, and it would be nice if it didn't happen, even if we didn't agree that it should be actionable?

BONERMASTER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:02 pm If the player that was killed was SSD, then that also means that Vekter started the bwoink on his own volition and went out of his way to punish him on his own accord. I mean, that sounds like misconduct to me, if we are being honest.

So in that light, what exactly would I be sympathetic towards?

I expected better of you lawyer man, refusing to look into the publicly available logs, where you would have seen the SSD player return, to instead spread misinformation and use it to accuse Vekter of misconduct? Shame. I would like to call for your immediate disbarment for this blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

NoxVS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:01 am

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:45 am This an example of MRP creep coming to LRP servers and to be honest it's why Manuel was probably a mistake.

There has never been any MRP creep coming to LRP servers. LRP is still roleplay, and rule 12 existed ages before Manuel ever did, it just got dropped and some point and had to be added back to remind people of the old ways.

You have always been playing a roleplaying server. You will roleplay and you will like it.

Rohen_Tahir wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:43 pm Personally I'm not a big fan of admins giving people poorly justified rule 0 notes/bans.

Could probably argue it is rule 12, not rule 0. And the justification is probably "its really fucking lame to get DCed for a minute and return to find you had been murdered". Can we all at least agree that this is kinda lame, and it would be nice if it didn't happen, even if we didn't agree that it should be actionable?

BONERMASTER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:02 pm If the player that was killed was SSD, then that also means that Vekter started the bwoink on his own volition and went out of his way to punish him on his own accord. I mean, that sounds like misconduct to me, if we are being honest.

So in that light, what exactly would I be sympathetic towards?

I expected better of you lawyer man, refusing to look into the publicly available logs, where you would have seen the SSD player return, to instead spread misinformation and use it to accuse Vekter of misconduct? Shame. I would like to call for your immediate disbarment for this blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

Local admin malds on different local admins behalf

NoxVS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:01 am

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:45 am This an example of MRP creep coming to LRP servers and to be honest it's why Manuel was probably a mistake.

There has never been any MRP creep coming to LRP servers. LRP is still roleplay, and rule 12 existed ages before Manuel ever did, it just got dropped and some point and had to be added back to remind people of the old ways.

You have always been playing a roleplaying server. You will roleplay and you will like it.

If anything a heretic sparing a catatonic crewmember is anti role-play. What heretic would give up a free sacrifice?

MRP isn't higher level of roleplay, it's just shittier roleplay that I sincerely believe is used as a crutch by worse players upset over getting gamered on by LRP server players.

Sorry but shit happens. I have a worse connection than 90% of the playerbase and I accept the risk that I could get killed while SSD. Playing a game is a voluntary activity.

idk, the note should had never been placed on the guy since he was an antag. But lets say antags aren't immune to a lot of the rules. In order to prove it was a rule 12 /rule 0 violation you would need to check logs to see if he examined the target for being ssd before picking a target. Am not going log diving and since even if he did he would need to high roll the target out of his 3 options. I doubt he did this.

As well the note itself was pretty vague and left out the fact he was antag which I take a big issue with since that changes the story quite a bit and could possible in the future eat him an extended ban for having a "bad history" of killing people if he made a bad call as a head/sec. I also find it pretty convenient that he let that little detail slip through the cracks and I think head admins should look into why he did to look for bad faith since it would change an future admin's opinion on the note.

NoxVS wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:01 am

BONERMASTER wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:02 pm If the player that was killed was SSD, then that also means that Vekter started the bwoink on his own volition and went out of his way to punish him on his own accord. I mean, that sounds like misconduct to me, if we are being honest.

So in that light, what exactly would I be sympathetic towards?

I expected better of you lawyer man, refusing to look into the publicly available logs, where you would have seen the SSD player return, to instead spread misinformation and use it to accuse Vekter of misconduct? Shame. I would like to call for your immediate disbarment for this blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

First of all, I am not a lawyer, but even if I was, I am not required to fact check whatever my client is saying, there is no rule for me having to "know the truth" so I would simply take the truth as is. If it happens to be incorrect, then that's very tragic, and if you find issue with this procedure, you would be welcome to file a complaint to the bar association to that regard.

Second, in the game.txt there are 7406 messages, in the attack.txt you have 7989 messages. There is no name mentioned in the appeal. How am I supposed to cross reference through all these messages, who the person in question was?
And also, just so you are aware, you don't have access to a-say logs as a player, so it is also not possible for players to figure out if an a-help conversation even happened to begin with.

All in all, it is clear that you are harassing me, and I will move to strike your question and also moving for sanctions for harassment and being annoying. See you in court!!!


With transparent regards
-BONERMASTER

wubli wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:17 pm

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:51 pm for the record though, I agree with the note. if an 8 bit pixel spaceman is just standing there and doesnt react at all to you MURDERING him, take a quick look to see if hes even connected. and by god if hes disconnected, stuff him in a locker and hope he comes back for you to murder at a later time. you don't have to be unpolite about murder in this game.

normally? yes. but if your target happens to be SSD, for an antag like heretic (that requires you to repeat this several times), i wouldn't blame you for killing them anyways.
unless you're actively looking for who's SSD and rerolling until you get them, it's tough luck

I believe that rolling for ssd is much harder now due to starting with random targets and the fact that ritual that allows to reroll require you to reach second ability of path which is like i think 7 points from the start. So its not that easy to roll ssd now

Extremely mediocre note, DC'd people in public areas should not have a magic force field protecting them from antags who need them dead on any server which doesnt require kills be 2-man roleplayed out.

this was already resolved when the thread was made

Locking peanuts where admins clearly fuckup just makes us look petty

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:08 pm Locking peanuts where admins clearly fuckup just makes us look petty

Players should not be expected to bite their tongue towards admins who fuck up, even in minor ways. They are allowed to express their frustration, and all of our admins are capable of handling it.

Big respect. People are going to be 100% understandably upset, not just in this situation but in a large majority of administrative situations.

I like Vekter, and I don't find a lot of the remarks being made very constructive. but locking a peanut about admin misconduct because you consider it resolved is a pretty clear double standard, admins shouldn't be protected from criticism more than a player.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:08 pm Locking peanuts where admins clearly fuckup just makes us look petty

based

For the sake of full transparency, I am going to post the ticket log that led to this appeal. Players can draw their own conclusions from it based on what Mothblocks said.
If you disagree with any assertions about their rudeness or hostility, consider that players only have to deal with admins intermittently. Admins have to deal with constant player abuse on a daily basis. Nobody, player nor admin, honestly knows what kind of day the other person has had and being shitty to eachother for no reason doesn't benefit anyone. The best course of action is for everyone to be excellent to each other, because at the end of each screen is another real life person.

I disagree at calling this a Manuelmin moment, though. This note would almost certainly have been removed on Manuel as well. This wasn't a case of Vekter applying the MRP rules, but instead just applying their own personal discretion. It would be wonderful if players could stop attributing every decision they disagree with as being a Manuelmin moment.

My feedback would be:
That more investigation would have been helpful, as the ticket itself had no conversation with the player to understand what they were doing and why. It would have completely removed the need to note, and opening in a more neutral tone would have avoided the player biting back.
To double check note wordings are useful to other admins and won't be misrepresentative of the incident.
To keep in mind that antags exist to play to win on LRP, and must be able to do so to provide any meaningful challenge the crew. While Rule 4 isn't sacred, broadly speaking it overrides Rule 12 on LRP and - I may be corrected here - But I believe it was explicitly stated during internal discussions when Rule 12 was brought in that it didn't apply to antags. Although we never codified it as such.
The more discretion you exercise in your judgement calls, the more you should check in with adminbus first to gather additional views and opinions on if the player's conduct has broken any rules or should be noted if they haven't exactly broken any rules but you feel the need to ask them not to do certain behaviours or actions.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:18 pm21:14:50: Ticket Opened by-vekter: Hey, try not to sack people who are SSD, please. Kind of dickish.

This was not an acceptable opener for a ticket by Vekter, and definitely got the adminhelp off on the wrong foot. Presumptive of the player's guilt, and he straight up called him a dick in the opening line of the adminhelp. This is unacceptable conduct.

In your note you were extremely hostile to what was a fairly mundane opening adminhelp

-> Admin calls player a dick -> Player calls admin Manuelmin -> This is somehow "Extreme Hostility" from the player and a "mundane opening" from the admin.

Not gonna lie, calling that "Extreme hostility" kinda lowers my trust for admins describing the tone of conversations.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:18 pm Admins have to deal with constant player abuse on a daily basis.

Victim blaming