why isnt rnd fun

[Shadowflame909]

its been through several renditions. yet it seems to bore the majority of the playerbase

I say we go screw it and just make it tetris like another server

[Itseasytosee2me]

Lack of clear goals and a gameplay loop

The ones that do:
Medbay- Heal the sick and injured!
Security- Keep peace! Keep the criminals locked up!
Service- Make drinks! Make food! Keep the station clean!
Miners- Mine the ore! Get the loot!

The ones that don't:
RnD- Research everything? Print shit? Get lost in some sub-department and do nothing of value the entire round?
Cargo- Move the round start crates! Wait around for someone to feel like buying something or doing a bounty. Buy guns and pick fights to pass time.

[Shadowflame909]

maybe we need to take a book out of mining's selfless job aspect and have science vendor that gives you points for how many station machines you upgraded.

the science vending machine will have anomaly stabilizers, advanced tool implants, and a magnum opus grand prize of 1 working bag of holding. (have to pretty much upgrade 50% of the stations roundstart machines to get)

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I don't play science because of science players, not because of science content. Science players are the worst, worse than any other department, even security and the greytide.

[Pandarsenic]

1) Stop gating R&D gamer gear behind toxins. Toxins already has a reward, and it's bombs.
2) Let R&D print anything but firing pins tbh, and give them more cool Other Shit to print.

You know what motivates people to do R&D? Getting bags of holding! Jaws of Life!

BE NOT AFRAID

Let people have cool things

[XII3912]

Lack of clear goals and a gameplay loop

Security- Keep peace! Keep the criminals locked up! - they never succeed in doing this anyway, its the crew themselves that usually takes down antag/threats

[CPTANT]

Because the rewards got stripped and the process made more tedious.

It also doesn't have nearly enough interaction with other departments.

[Farquaar]

I think that there are two ways an SS13 job can be fun
1. Social interaction (Security is a good example of this. No criminals = no social interaction = no fun)
2. Opportunities for creativity (What is the main draw of Clown or Assistant if not the freedom to use any mechanic in the game for a gimmick?)

A lot of jobs tend to mix the two. Chef, for instance, is primarily a creative job which allows social interaction when players come to view their handiwork. A medical doctor, on the other hand, is primarily a social job that allows some creativity with respect to medicines (pills or patches? cheap libital or expensive synthflesh?) and tools (i.e. chemfactory)

Some jobs, like science, are very limited in both aspects. Social interaction tends to be limited as there's little crew-facing interaction aside from machine upgrades, cytology swabbing, and maybe mech/cyborg building for robotics. Xenobio, cytology, and robotics offer some openings for creativity, but in order to showcase that creativity they have to leave their post (unlike, say, MD or chef)

In order for R&D to become more fun, I posit that more crew-facing interactions for existing features be implemented. People should be visiting the science department to get certain goodies on a regular basis. Maybe a map could have a science showcase area in the publicly accessible front room of the science department, which can be easily reconfigured into a display area, a zoo, a firing range, a computer that allows crew to view recorded explosions, etc.

[Pandarsenic]

People should be visiting the science department to get certain goodies on a regular basis.

This was the case before departmental protolathes killed it.

[Turbonerd]

A lot of R&D sucks because the job was only designed around the rewards instead of the actual job. Toxins is the only okay part about R&D, but it doesn't have a lot of content around it.

[Farquaar]

A lot of R&D sucks because the job was only designed around the rewards instead of the actual job. Toxins is the only okay part about R&D, but it doesn't have a lot of content around it.

Toxins, to me, represents the absolute worst of R&D. No room for creativity (there's a clearly optimal setup that makes the biggest boom) and no room for social interaction (you're hidden away and you can't just hand out bombs out to the crew). The only redeeming quality of toxins is that the crew gets a message and feels the station shake when you set off a large bomb.

Toxins needs a complete and utter rehaul if it's to be anything more than read guide to make maxcap -> make maxcap -> make big boom.

[TheSmallBlue]

I do think current RnD is important for the station, every job needs a node researched to make their work more efficient. Miners need mining nodes, botanists botany nodes, security security nodes, and so on and so forth.

I think the main current problem is experiments, they *suuuuck*.
The idea itself isn't bad, but the execution is lackluster. Experiments could be the perfect tool for players to experiment with the more in depth systems of not only the science department but ss13 as a whole, but right now experiments devolve to "make chair. Upgrade machine. Upgrade another machine. Upgrade another machine. Big boom. Upgrade another machine. Small boom" it just isn't fun.

I think that a small rework to experiments could make RnD more fun.
If I had to rework it myself I'd probably do the following:

1.
Yknow how the most popular nodes usually have an experiment that reduces the cost of said node? Yknow how usually nobody bothers with said experiments? Remove that! Replace it with a system that, when you complete an experiment, adds a button to the RnD console that allows you to apply a discount to any node you want. The more experiments you do, the more discounts you can apply. Less complicated nodes should give lesser discounts while more complicated one should give bigger discounts. Making 5 chairs? 5% off any node you want. Maxcap? 80% off any node you want.
This could also work as a replacement to Nanite's whole more-research-points programs.
2.
Science jobs nowadays have no much purpose to the station as a whole. For a department thats supposed to be doing research that benefit the station, most of the time they're doing pet projects for their own benefits and interests. To fix that, there should be more experiments related to science. Such as, "Scan a mice created from a vat", "Scan a charged yellow slime core", "Scan a circuit that when inputted x, they output y" and so on and so forth. There should be tonsa these to connect science to the rest of the station. This would also allow people to be more selfless, hell maybe the RD will actually start giving out medals again (when was the last time you saw a scientist get commended?)

That's it, two points

[celularLAmp]

Toxins resesarch papers - gay

robotics - okay its kinda boring once youve done it because therse not much cool combos
same thing with genetics

xenobio is just idle sim but not fun cus you dont get to upgrade or do anything other than wait for rng
rewards are cool though and the only reason people do xenobio

circuits - the amount of people that do circuits is under 15 people

the things that are just reading guides like toxins or setting sm up i dont want to do its not really fun to
just follow guide and do steps

things are more fun if its like learnable in game or through trial and error at least


also research points just slowly going up as round goes on is stupid why the fuck can we not affect this at all other than disabling it entirely by destroying server room

if the researcher stuff was fun then that itself could give research points
but for some reason the research is just SCAN ITEM
BUILD GLASS OBJECT SCAN

sorry man you don't know how to do toxins so we can't have insert useful research here.

I like the surgery experiments though and the xenobio experiments were easier than the toxins ones.

[Stickymayhem]

I wish R&D involved managing the research of the station to prompt social interaction.

Like a bounty system but instead of useless cash you unlock nodes for your department. Science tells you the bounties, they have to come pick it up or scan something, then they bring it back to their destructive analyzer or whatever.

The old system was similar but didn't work because you just optimized speedruns but the bounty system we already have would make things far more interesting, prompt social interaction and encourage people to do their jobs and cooperate to access the department relevant nodes they want.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I wish R&D involved managing the research of the station to prompt social interaction.

Like a bounty system but instead of useless cash you unlock nodes for your department. Science tells you the bounties, they have to come pick it up or scan something, then they bring it back to their destructive analyzer or whatever.

The old system was similar but didn't work because you just optimized speedruns but the bounty system we already have would make things far more interesting, prompt social interaction and encourage people to do their jobs and cooperate to access the department relevant nodes they want.

Stop trying to force non-science players to interact with science. If I sign up for Botany, I want to do fucking Botany, not science. This terrible approach is what has led to toxins-gating soft-removing content.

[Misdoubtful]

RND is like being a baker. You follow an exacting recipe, then a gaggle of vicious hounds come and eat all your tart pastries before you can sell them and benefit, so you're left with nothing but a mess and cripplingly large debt.

Also what's the point in antagonizing science? I'll just use the RND console at [random place] and print something I actually needed at the lathe in the [bathrooms].

Ore silo and every department having a protolathe did pretty irreversible damage to science, and killed off a much more conflict and station cooperation ingrained environment. RND still sucked but at least it provided that.

Boring.

[massa]

because the good stuff got removed

every time we get a streamlined normiecore system where the fun stuff and illegal tech that was easy-enough-to-access-kinda but is now extremely-difficult-to-access-outside-of-niche-situations.

nothing rnd makes is super crazy poggers. especially not anymore. yeah it makes some nice stuff, but with how things seem to be trending towards becoming more and more useless/bad/"balanced" the less people bother with the game and its mechanics/systems in general. for example, i used to do tox a lot, teach it, make armors, etc. and now i don't. i don't bother. i can't do all that shit for a stealth core or whatever. it was already hard enough, then but it just went off the cuff.

it's just easier to drill someone's skull after bonking them once with a batong than even bothering to use half the tools provided by game mechanics, or antag tools.

1) Stop gating R&D gamer gear behind toxins. Toxins already has a reward, and it's bombs.
2) Let R&D print anything but firing pins tbh, and give them more cool Other Shit to print.

You know what motivates people to do R&D? Getting bags of holding! Jaws of Life!

BE NOT AFRAID

Let people have cool things

this is the way

[XII3912]

Ore silo and every department having a protolathe did pretty irreversible damage to science, and killed off a much more conflict and station cooperation ingrained environment. RND still sucked but at least it provided that.

Boring.

It actually didn't if only the sci lathe could print things itd only inconvenience everyone and if the ore silo didn't exist then it'd only be a more massive inconvenience to the station one that isn't called for or one that improves the enjoyment of the game in anyway

[XII3912]

Ore silo and every department having a protolathe did pretty irreversible damage to science, and killed off a much more conflict and station cooperation ingrained environment. RND still sucked but at least it provided that.

Boring.

It actually didn't if only the sci lathe could print things itd only inconvenience everyone and if the ore silo didn't exist then it'd only be a more massive inconvenience to the station one that isn't called for or one that improves the enjoyment of the game in any way

[Valorium]

I think Science being more able to create weapons (again) would actually be interesting. Right now, the only sources of weapons of any decent caliber (pun not intended) are Cargo and Security, which puts them at the top of the heap when any scenario requiring widespread firepower arises. From my experiences with Shiptest, where oftentimes you only have access to one type of lathe period, science lathes are one of the worst in terms of creating useful, versatile equipment. If Science has more rewards and more ways to interface with the crew in the event of a crisis, that may be for the best. Think about it: in the event of any massive antagonist activity that warrants the entire crew getting on it, how often is even moderately late-game Science actually the answer? Blob? Cargo and sec for guns, rechargers are easy to get and very early research. Dragon? See previous. Nukies? See previous. Xenos? See previous. Sentient Disease? Medical. Cult? Security and the Chaplain. Revs? Security, command, cargo. SM delamming? Maybe some Science for anomaly stabilizers, but mainly Engineering. Wizard? Security, chemistry, cargo. Ninja? Security and cargo. The only massive threat that Science is better positioned to deal with than most other departments (and this is arguable) is Malf AIs.

Regardless, I think some more first-hand experience would be vital. Perhaps some veterans from the time when Science was able to print weapons could weigh in and tell us what that was like?

[Misdoubtful]

Ore silo and every department having a protolathe did pretty irreversible damage to science, and killed off a much more conflict and station cooperation ingrained environment. RND still sucked but at least it provided that.

Boring.

It actually didn't if only the sci lathe could print things itd only inconvenience everyone and if the ore silo didn't exist then it'd only be a more massive inconvenience to the station one that isn't called for or one that improves the enjoyment of the game in any way

That exact inconvenience and having to interact with other departments being the kindling for conflict and the spark for game enjoyment is the entire point here.

Interaction with others on a multiplayer platform where you have to try—or fail and seek more aggressive/creative alternatives—to accomplish your goals and also survive in rounds.

In an environment where everyone gets progressively stronger whilst antags move the round around and do things that have a unique impact so that said rounds can be diverse, interesting, and have a solid conclusion.

Does giving everyone magical convenience really promote interactions and interdepartmental conflict? Or is the point here single player inconveniences?

Everything is a formula, while there is barely any reason for people to interact with sci and get things from them besides screaming over comms for mining upgrades. Its a bubble.

[Pandarsenic]

It actually didn't if only the sci lathe could print things itd only inconvenience everyone and if the ore silo didn't exist then it'd only be a more massive inconvenience to the station one that isn't called for or one that improves the enjoyment of the game in any way

This was how it worked for years, and tbh some parts were nice and some weren't. Miners had to drag the smelted goodies to science in a crate, then have the scientist print them the stuff they wanted before they shipped out again, TALKIN to the scientist, because there was no "cargo protolathe." You had fruitful interactions beyond just ";IS ADVANCED MINING TECH IN?"

If you wanted guns as security, you had to leave your fortress and talk to the scientists, because they had half the key to the new goodies (actual guns, which were printed whole from the protolathe instead of being upgrade kits)

[Misdoubtful]

It actually didn't if only the sci lathe could print things itd only inconvenience everyone and if the ore silo didn't exist then it'd only be a more massive inconvenience to the station one that isn't called for or one that improves the enjoyment of the game in any way

This was how it worked for years, and tbh some parts were nice and some weren't. Miners had to drag the smelted goodies to science in a crate, then have the scientist print them the stuff they wanted before they shipped out again, TALKIN to the scientist, because there was no "cargo protolathe." You had fruitful interactions beyond just ";IS ADVANCED MINING TECH IN?"

If you wanted guns as security, you had to leave your fortress and talk to the scientists, because they had half the key to the new goodies (actual guns, which were printed whole from the protolathe instead of being upgrade kits)

I really appreciate having someone else here that remembers how it used to be you have no idea.

[technokek]

Just as a reminder that if you build a mech as science that can carry weapons security is literally allowed to just take/destroy it if you refuse to hand it over.


))))))))

[Pandarsenic]

I really appreciate having someone else here that remembers how it used to be you have no idea.

People here every day: "imagine how bad it would be if [old thing that was good]"

The only thing I don't miss is non antag assistants stealing the materials to be dicks.

Just as a reminder that if you build a mech as science that can carry weapons security is literally allowed to just take/destroy it if you refuse to hand it over.


))))))))

Roboticists should be allowed to Paperwork HoP them in response, requiring that the sec team get sign offs from the HOP as qualified mech operators, the HOS and RD agreeing to the transfer of the mech, the bartender that they won't serve the designated pilot, etc.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I really appreciate having someone else here that remembers how it used to be you have no idea.

People here every day: "imagine how bad it would be if [old thing that was good]"

The only thing I don't miss is non antag assistants stealing the materials to be dicks.

Just as a reminder that if you build a mech as science that can carry weapons security is literally allowed to just take/destroy it if you refuse to hand it over.


))))))))

Roboticists should be allowed to Paperwork HoP them in response, requiring that the sec team get sign offs from the HOP as qualified mech operators, the HOS and RD agreeing to the transfer of the mech, the bartender that they won't serve the designated pilot, etc.

You misunderstand the ideal relationship between this kind of sec player and the crew, it goes as follows:

1) Sec player does whatever he wants to the crew and can make them do anything because hes Good Guy Shepherd.
2) Crew isnt allowed to do anything to the sec player and can't make him do anything because they're Untrustworthy Sheep.

[Shellton(Mario)]

Whatever cool shit is left is gate kepted behind among us tasks that are too long and boring to do on a shift by shift basis or was nerfed into uselessness.

[toemas]

who could have possibly guessed that removing all the fun shit from science or gating it behind 40 minutes of work would make people not enjoy the job anymore

[technokek]

I love doing science for 50 minutes just for the shuttle to be called for no reason when I am almost done getting the thing I want.

[Stickymayhem]

I wish R&D involved managing the research of the station to prompt social interaction.

Like a bounty system but instead of useless cash you unlock nodes for your department. Science tells you the bounties, they have to come pick it up or scan something, then they bring it back to their destructive analyzer or whatever.

The old system was similar but didn't work because you just optimized speedruns but the bounty system we already have would make things far more interesting, prompt social interaction and encourage people to do their jobs and cooperate to access the department relevant nodes they want.

Stop trying to force non-science players to interact with science. If I sign up for Botany, I want to do fucking Botany, not science. This terrible approach is what has led to toxins-gating soft-removing content.

you don't have to interact with science you just get a scientist pop round and say "yo can i get a tomato that produces cum" and you engineer the cum tomato and go "yo dude cum tomato is done"

[celularLAmp]

I wish R&D involved managing the research of the station to prompt social interaction.

Like a bounty system but instead of useless cash you unlock nodes for your department. Science tells you the bounties, they have to come pick it up or scan something, then they bring it back to their destructive analyzer or whatever.

The old system was similar but didn't work because you just optimized speedruns but the bounty system we already have would make things far more interesting, prompt social interaction and encourage people to do their jobs and cooperate to access the department relevant nodes they want.

Stop trying to force non-science players to interact with science. If I sign up for Botany, I want to do fucking Botany, not science. This terrible approach is what has led to toxins-gating soft-removing content.

you don't have to interact with science you just get a scientist pop round and say "yo can i get a tomato that produces cum" and you engineer the cum tomato and go "yo dude cum tomato is done"

Isn't there a experiment for botany research that requires botany to do something and it's like never done which means nobody can make more tray boards (people just take them from public botany anyways)

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I wish R&D involved managing the research of the station to prompt social interaction.

Like a bounty system but instead of useless cash you unlock nodes for your department. Science tells you the bounties, they have to come pick it up or scan something, then they bring it back to their destructive analyzer or whatever.

The old system was similar but didn't work because you just optimized speedruns but the bounty system we already have would make things far more interesting, prompt social interaction and encourage people to do their jobs and cooperate to access the department relevant nodes they want.

Stop trying to force non-science players to interact with science. If I sign up for Botany, I want to do fucking Botany, not science. This terrible approach is what has led to toxins-gating soft-removing content.

you don't have to interact with science you just get a scientist pop round and say "yo can i get a tomato that produces cum" and you engineer the cum tomato and go "yo dude cum tomato is done"

Looks at Advanced Industrial Engineering

Why don't I believe you sticky?

[cacogen]

you don't have to interact with science you just get a scientist pop round and say "yo can i get a tomato that produces cum" and you engineer the cum tomato and go "yo dude cum tomato is done"

yeah but it might take 20 minutes to engineer the cum tomato and a lot of players don't want to spend that long away from what they're doing for the sake of another player. and it assumes botany even has active staff to do it.

designing something mandatory like r&d around interdepartmental cooperation doesn't work, and you can see this with the kitchen where there usually isn't enough/any food.

[CPTANT]

I think as design elements for an rnd system I would have the following things:

Basic research is always possible with a bit of work

Advance research relies on randomization: Fetch different items, require different experiments etc

Advance research relies on cooperation: I wouldn't overdo it though, just a few cooperations here and there would already break up sitting in science the entire time.

Advance research is mechanically easy to understand when recourse prerequisites are met.

Advance research is worth it: Actually give people decent rewards for completing their stuff.

[chocolate_bickie]

you don't have to interact with science you just get a scientist pop round and say "yo can i get a tomato that produces cum" and you engineer the cum tomato and go "yo dude cum tomato is done"

yeah but it might take 20 minutes to engineer the cum tomato and a lot of players don't want to spend that long away from what they're doing for the sake of another player. and it assumes botany even has active staff to do it.

designing something mandatory like r&d around interdepartmental cooperation doesn't work, and you can see this with the kitchen where there usually isn't enough/any food.

And god help you if you are new to a department and don't know how to make a cum tomatoe.

The person who wants to cum tomatoe won't help you, but they will sure as hell yell at you for not knowing the optimal path for mass extra cummy trait cum tomatoes.

[massa]

I think we can shift focus away from cum tomatoes and refocus on what the majority of this thread has said:

It takes WAAAAAAAAAAY too long. The rewards were nerfed into uselessness, the good ones which remain are utterly inaccessible (toxins lol). This is not a game about spreadsheeting and managing numbers. This is a visceral game about player interaction, specifically around conflict and combat.

[Pandarsenic]

This is not a game about spreadsheeting and managing numbers. This is a visceral game about player interaction, specifically around conflict and combat.

This is at the core of why I don't like a lot of the guide-dependent systems (Toxins; Fermichem, though that may have just gotten better, haven't tried it yet; Virology, which at least has good rewards but is highly spreadsheet dependent, etc.)

And again, let people have Cool Shit and if it goes catastrophically wrong, or escalates conflicts immensely when traitors and loyal crew fight with/over those things, embrace that this isn't a game about everything being normal and safe for 2 hours before people complete the station goal and go home.

[BlevRuz]

circuits - the amount of people that do circuits is under 15 people

sad but true. its the best part of sci imo tho

on another note the fact you really have to do the same experiments each round kinda sucks.
could be good to have more possible experiments for a same goal so instead of scanning twenty plasma toilets you can scan maint artifacts or something.

[chocolate_bickie]

A good first step would be to cut all the scans needed for each item to one.

When you have to do 4 of 3 items (12 in total) the whole process becomes tedious with zero gain.