What is shitsec? How can one actually help the station as sec?

[XII3912]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Sec are one of those departments that are always hated on by the crew and tbh I dont think they can really help out the station in any meaningful way or can they?

So can sec be a useful department to the station? All I ever see is hard-core robust validhunters, cringe book followers who think they're useful or just clueless newbies.
Soo what does a "good seccie" look like?

[Zybwivcz]

But I actually think that goal is the antithesis of SS13. I think the game is at its best if you're not playing optimally and you get your fun from the setting, story and narrative of shifts over mechanical wins like RRing antags. To me, sec borging antags (that are also on baord with the idea) is super cool from a storytelling perspective and opens up a lot more room for SS13 stories to happen than playing optimally and doing the meta thing.

That's funny I've been told how much worse it is to borg a suspected antag than to merely kill them.

And that's what I think the raw essence of shitsec is. Optimally played sec, that goes through the game with a min-max approach of clearing their job content so they can call the shuttle and go to the next shift. No interactions. They don't contribute anything interesting.

If SEC is the only department where being too effective at what your job's basic role is gets you bwoinked there should really be a warning somewhere on the wiki about it. I don't remember the warnings to engineers against getting up a rock solid high energy SM too fast, or chemists who have got plumbing setups pumping out synthflesh patches in five minutes.

I think the best way sec can contribute to a shift is by pacing themselves and dealing with antags in such as way that they are force-multiplying to maximise the chances of fun, interesting and above all else truly memorable SS13 moments. In my eyes nobody remembers that shift that sec steamrolled all antags and the shuttle was called at 45min. Everyone remembers some shift where an antag runs wild with a plan, idea or cool gimmick and truly impacts the shift in a meaningful way, and they had to fight to survive as they watched the station burn or explode around them.

The "I remember this cool non-kill-everyone antag gimmick" is outnumbered about fifty to one by the "I remember this time a murderboner with AA/noslips/powerfist/subverted silicons slaughtered 90% of the station and then kept recalling the shuttle". Maybe things are different over there on Manuel. I wouldn't know.

[Timberpoes]

But I actually think that goal is the antithesis of SS13. I think the game is at its best if you're not playing optimally and you get your fun from the setting, story and narrative of shifts over mechanical wins like RRing antags. To me, sec borging antags (that are also on baord with the idea) is super cool from a storytelling perspective and opens up a lot more room for SS13 stories to happen than playing optimally and doing the meta thing.

That's funny I've been told how much worse it is to borg a suspected antag than to merely kill them.

That's why I included the phrase "that are also on board with the idea" except I spelled board wrong so that may have been where you got confused.

If an antag allows or volunteers to be borged, it's better than just killing them and I'd argue more fun or interesting than killing them and expecting them to take a posibrain - Which has OOC consequences of them not being "them" anymore because it's a ghost role.

And that's what I think the raw essence of shitsec is. Optimally played sec, that goes through the game with a min-max approach of clearing their job content so they can call the shuttle and go to the next shift. No interactions. They don't contribute anything interesting.

If SEC is the only department where being too effective at what your job's basic role is gets you bwoinked there should really be a warning somewhere on the wiki about it. I don't remember the warnings to engineers against getting up a rock solid high energy SM too fast, or chemists who have got plumbing setups pumping out synthflesh patches in five minutes.

I said nothing about bwoinking and implied nothing about things being against the rules.

Optimally played sec from a "competitive victory against the antags" standpoint that min-maxes to turn the server into a greenshift as fast as possible is just boring, in my eyes. There's no SS13 energy in it. No stories.

Just a culture that forces antags to min-max back. The sandbox scope is reduced because the only way to play is either to not antag at all or to take one of the few paths that lets you counter sec lest you just get caught and executed before you're able to really contribute anything to the story.

I think the best way sec can contribute to a shift is by pacing themselves and dealing with antags in such as way that they are force-multiplying to maximise the chances of fun, interesting and above all else truly memorable SS13 moments. In my eyes nobody remembers that shift that sec steamrolled all antags and the shuttle was called at 45min. Everyone remembers some shift where an antag runs wild with a plan, idea or cool gimmick and truly impacts the shift in a meaningful way, and they had to fight to survive as they watched the station burn or explode around them.

The "I remember this cool non-kill-everyone antag gimmick" is outnumbered about fifty to one by the "I remember this time a murderboner with AA/noslips/powerfist/subverted silicons slaughtered 90% of the station and then kept recalling the shuttle". Maybe things are different over there on Manuel. I wouldn't know.

Again, you missed the part where I said "... and they had to fight to survive as they watched the station burn or explode around them." - It's not about cool non-kill-everyone gimmicks, it's about the raw soul of SS13. That's not a Manuel thing. That's an SS13 thing. Many people's best SS13 highs are from those scenarios that only SS13 can create as a roleplaying game.

Full blooded antags are meant be scary and overpowered threats. Sec is meant to exist as a hurdle for them to overcome, to make them earn their greentext. Maybe kill a few of them along the way. Not everyone gets to win. But enough should fall through the cracks to create a story that's actually worth retelling. "I metaknow X antags have to do Y objectives so I camped some common objective areas out, caught them bugging a room and executed them" is a story not worth retelling. It was barely worth telling in the first place.

Sec isn't a hurdle at that point, it's a gate and it's locking the fun of SS13 away.

And if you're a sec team that has that power, you are now the driving force of the shift and it's your combined responsibilities to use the fact you're that much better than all the antags to give them a chance to create a story.

[sinfulbliss]

And if you're a sec team that has that power, you are now the driving force of the shift and it's your combined responsibilities to use the fact you're that much better than all the antags to give them a chance to create a story.

I've discussed this with Bdudy before and the issue was that the best solution to this is to not play security. I've personally found that rounds are more fun when security is terrible -- when security players are new, get slipped by clowns and lose their batons, and fiddle around in the halls with assistants while the antagonists roam around hidden in the shadows to plot and execute the evil that will spice up the round. For instance:

Everyone remembers some shift where an antag runs wild with a plan, idea or cool gimmick and truly impacts the shift in a meaningful way, and they had to fight to survive as they watched the station burn or explode around them.

Would these shifts not be better achieved without a security force period?

The serious issue is that after a while, the security player will get good at their job. They'll stop getting slipped by the clown and easily wade through the assistants. They'll start to develop strategies against the various types of antagonists. Before long you have a security team that will suck all the oxygen from the maintenance tunnels and leave antags just looking for a breath.

There are only two solutions to this issue: 1) intentionally play security poorly. Leave stones unturned, do poor investigative work, ignore the dead Runtime in the CMO office - maybe even let a traitor kill you because it will be better for the story overall. The issue with this is it's an incredibly unfun way to play. People enjoy the idea of improving at their jobs as they play them, and intentionally nerfing yourself to be bad at it is a big ask.

Or 2) artificially inject the threat back into the round yourself. You can sec to the best of your ability, so long as you make sure the antags you catch are released with an opportunity to continue to add threat into the round (e.g. with their uplinks/gear). The first issue with this though is you're still dulling the round. Had you not intervened (or played security!) they might've gotten to do something more exciting.

The other big downside is that it makes the threat artificial. We had a round yesterday, for example, where we caught all the heretics as security, and I decided to let them go instantly because it would be more fun than a greenshift. But it felt artificial - would you just parole a dangerous heretic instantly as a security officer because "it's more fun"? It feels very OOC and unironically breaks even my low-RP immersion requirements for the game to be fun. It's much better for everything to be natural, with security barely keeping up with the antagonists while they sow chaos, than for things to become some weird form of antag-babysitting where security and the antags wink at each other in OOC to partner up and make the round "just the right" amount of chaotic.

(My improvised solution to this is to just goof off and ignore things until they've heated up enough to where you're actually really needed to prevent the station from going critical.)

I think the best way sec can contribute to a shift is by pacing themselves and dealing with antags in such as way that they are force-multiplying to maximise the chances of fun, interesting and above all else truly memorable SS13 moments.

So my question is essentially for you to offer a vision for what that would look like in light of these issues.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Again, you missed the part where I said "... and they had to fight to survive as they watched the station burn or explode around them." - It's not about cool non-kill-everyone gimmicks, it's about the raw soul of SS13. That's not a Manuel thing. That's an SS13 thing. Many people's best SS13 highs are from those scenarios that only SS13 can create as a roleplaying game.

I tell this story all the time, but my favourite SS13 memory is a time there was a zombie outbreak, and my attempt to run to Public Mining got me trapped in a locker hiding near a zombie, so I PDA'd a Seccie I trusted to be stronk and thus still alive, to come help me, and he took me back to my Robotics lab to remove his tumour and together we escaped to Lavaland.

It really is hard to get those kinds of stories in any other game, because it's SS13's raw chaotic potential that allows these to happen.

[Timberpoes]

So my question is essentially for you to offer a vision for what that would look like in light of these issues.

A part that often gets forgotten is that every shift the same people can roll security, shift in, shift out. Even the occasional toxic antag will have continual streaks of shifts where they don't get graced by the RNGods. A bad antag can ruin an evening, but an equivalent sec force can ruin a server.

The solution doesn't lie in being a shitty sec officer and half-assing your job, I agree there fully. If you do your job well, you can pose a genuine challenge to antags. And that's part of what makes antag fun, especially solo antags like traitor. You're 1 vs many.

I think you're selling catch and release short, though. If you're so damn good, then you can thwart their plans and provide that meaningful challenge to them. If they're not yet at a power level that's worth executing, confiscate some stuff and send them back out into the game world. Bide your time until they've done something worth actually killing them for.

That's going beyond simply being a passenger in someone else's story, but making someone else a passenger in yours.

When it comes to releasing antags as breaking your RP immersion, I genuinely don't see it that way.

Kill a dog? Execute. Steal a coat? You bet your ass we're gonna execute. Bug a room? No prizes for guessing the most popular option, suggest execution. Bag has a sec of Syndicate branded playing cards? Three scoops of shitsec, with a side of execution.

I see it as the exact opposite.

To me, the idea that I can ask a sec officer why they killed someone and they'll just go "Rule 4, he had a freedom implant" and that's like, just perfectly okay and acceptable? That pushed me away from the LRP servers because it's just playing with the wiki open on the Rules page and going "This rule says I can do this thing, so I did it because the rules just say I can". That's as far from roleplay as I can imagine.

It's not about the nudge nudge, wink wink we're all buddies trying to make sure the game is fun.

It's about giving antags the opportunity to meaningfully impact the shift before you remove them from it. If you catch 'em again, fuck it. Delete 'em. And if they are a kill-in-the-hallways antag? Fight 'em. And execute 'em. Hell, even Manuel allows sec to do that much. Afterall, losing is part of the game too.

[Timonk]

I usually just Perma Antags that dindu and let Antags that helped sec run wild

[kieth4]

Here's the problem with security: Let's say you're not feeling validhungry, you catch an antag and let them go so they can cause some more chaos. This leads to absolute salt and screeching from the crew and to an overall toxic experience for the seccie. Ok, fine. Let's say this happens again the next round, you saw the salt so you just kill the antag. What will this do? It will lead to more salt (from some of the same players who salted about you letting the antag go) for killing the antag. You cannot win.

[Lacran]

Don't cater your playstyle to obnoxious randoms. As sec treat others how you would like sec to treat you. You can't really do anything else.

[toemas]

Executing/permabrigging known antags is the only option that makes any IC sense at all. security shouldnt need to act extremely lenient to let the round be interesting, If antags were nerfed less then it would probably help

[toemas]

To me, the idea that I can ask a sec officer why they killed someone and they'll just go "Rule 4, he had a freedom implant" and that's like, just perfectly okay and acceptable? .That's as far from roleplay as I can imagine.

how? if someone is exposed as a traitor, how does killing them not make sense? they're like terrorists sent to kill people and shit

[Timonk]

Here's the problem with security: Let's say you're not feeling validhungry, you catch an antag and let them go so they can cause some more chaos. This leads to absolute salt and screeching from the crew and to an overall toxic experience for the seccie. Ok, fine. Let's say this happens again the next round, you saw the salt so you just kill the antag. What will this do? It will lead to more salt (from some of the same players who salted about you letting the antag go) for killing the antag. You cannot win.

Perma, ever heard of it? Literally 1 post up

[Timberpoes]

how? if someone is exposed as a traitor, how does killing them not make sense? they're like terrorists sent to kill people and shit

It's a very gamer mentality. Not that thinking like a gamer is objectively bad, but it restricts roleplay potential when you go "Well, they're terrorists. Look at this guy. He literally planted a bug on the clown's shoes. That's like 9/11 times a thousand! The only option is to kill them."

And I think all our servers could do with a little bit more roleplay and a little bit less "the rules say I can do this, so I did it, I don't need a reason" justification.

[kieth4]

Here's the problem with security: Let's say you're not feeling validhungry, you catch an antag and let them go so they can cause some more chaos. This leads to absolute salt and screeching from the crew and to an overall toxic experience for the seccie. Ok, fine. Let's say this happens again the next round, you saw the salt so you just kill the antag. What will this do? It will lead to more salt (from some of the same players who salted about you letting the antag go) for killing the antag. You cannot win.

Perma, ever heard of it? Literally 1 post up

Perma = 100% escape chance = you can screeched at for letting antags go/not killing them.

[Rageguy505]

I try to get the antags to do plea deals, give me code words, any information and I won't kill you. I've had to kill traitors because they wouldn't tell me the code words.
And if they do cooperate, I'd put them on parole and assign them a parole officer to keep a eye on them. More often than not they kill their parole officer which is pretty funny. That's when you teleport on top of them from their tracking implant and arrest them again.

[Timonk]

Here's the problem with security: Let's say you're not feeling validhungry, you catch an antag and let them go so they can cause some more chaos. This leads to absolute salt and screeching from the crew and to an overall toxic experience for the seccie. Ok, fine. Let's say this happens again the next round, you saw the salt so you just kill the antag. What will this do? It will lead to more salt (from some of the same players who salted about you letting the antag go) for killing the antag. You cannot win.

Perma, ever heard of it? Literally 1 post up

Perma = 100% escape chance = you can screeched at for letting antags go/not killing them.

Not if you babysit them as warden

[kieth4]

Here's the problem with security: Let's say you're not feeling validhungry, you catch an antag and let them go so they can cause some more chaos. This leads to absolute salt and screeching from the crew and to an overall toxic experience for the seccie. Ok, fine. Let's say this happens again the next round, you saw the salt so you just kill the antag. What will this do? It will lead to more salt (from some of the same players who salted about you letting the antag go) for killing the antag. You cannot win.

Perma, ever heard of it? Literally 1 post up

Perma = 100% escape chance = you can screeched at for letting antags go/not killing them.

Not if you babysit them as warden

You're putting more and more hypotheticals on the table. 99% of the time there isn't a warden. The point is you can never make anyone happy no matter how hard you try because people react to the antags differently. People will seethe if you rp, people will seethe if you kill and people will seethe if you let them go.

[dirk_mcblade]

This is probably the last thing I'll say in an attempt not to just repeat myself but I think sec is being expected to pick up the slack for faulty game design.
That antag they're encouraged not to execute for bugging an office? If let go they have the potential to eventually end the round by advancing to one of the ultimate prog antag missions where they turn into a dragon or cause a resonance cascade.
That's significantly different from the prior system where they have only a few static goals, most of which aren't round ending.
And then you have the third set of antags in LRP servers who just want to sandbox shit but are restricted by rep locks they have to wait for.
If you like the system as is, fine, but don't get mad at sec for executing buggers.
My proposal instead is to put a timelock on significant explosives, reinstate static antags, and keep prog antags as an optional 0 tc purchase within the first few minutes of round that overrides existing objectives a la contractor's kit (bring back contractor's kit too), and add more prog objectives so the prog antags are less likely to get caught.
That in my opinion fixes most of the current problem which is catch and release for antags is very costly for sec. At least it gives sec the option to inquire about static objectives and release them without knowing that they could end up resulting in the station getting blown up because some dude snuck around command staff's offices without getting caught afterwards.

[Timonk]

Here's the problem with security: Let's say you're not feeling validhungry, you catch an antag and let them go so they can cause some more chaos. This leads to absolute salt and screeching from the crew and to an overall toxic experience for the seccie. Ok, fine. Let's say this happens again the next round, you saw the salt so you just kill the antag. What will this do? It will lead to more salt (from some of the same players who salted about you letting the antag go) for killing the antag. You cannot win.

Perma, ever heard of it? Literally 1 post up

Perma = 100% escape chance = you can screeched at for letting antags go/not killing them.

Not if you babysit them as warden

You're putting more and more hypotheticals on the table. 99% of the time there isn't a warden. The point is you can never make anyone happy no matter how hard you try because people react to the antags differently. People will seethe if you rp, people will seethe if you kill and people will seethe if you let them go.

I kinda view Perma as a "second chance if you never get caught" anyways

[Zybwivcz]

That's why I included the phrase "that are also on board with the idea" except I spelled board wrong so that may have been where you got confused.

So with a dead antag who can't be questioned SEC is supposed to revive them, and ask if they consent to being borged, and then just re-kill them if they don't consent and they're too dangerous to let go?

And that's what I think the raw essence of shitsec is. Optimally played sec, that goes through the game with a min-max approach of clearing their job content so they can call the shuttle and go to the next shift. No interactions. They don't contribute anything interesting.

Again, there no other department where doing your defined role too well is considered a bad thing. Nobody ever bitches that medbay is too efficient at reviving corpses making death less important, or that atmos has made station breaches trivial to fix with a well designed distro upgrade.

The scientist pumping out a record fast toxins bomb to max out research isn't "interacting" with anyone in the sense you mean, nor is the xenobiologist or a dozen other common station positions. Engineers and atmosians can spend all round sitting in the same room tinkering with departmental stuff and not "interact" with anyone in that sense.

I said nothing about bwoinking and implied nothing about things being against the rules.

Want me to dig up admin posts alleging that insufficient RP or playing SEC focused merely on removing criminals is worthy of censure or punishment because of a lack of RP'ed "interaction"?

I agree that it isn't against any written rules though, which is kind of the problem.

Optimally played sec from a "competitive victory against the antags" standpoint that min-maxes to turn the server into a greenshift as fast as possible is just boring, in my eyes.

Dynamic.

Just a culture that forces antags to min-max back. The sandbox scope is reduced because the only way to play is either to not antag at all or to take one of the few paths that lets you counter sec lest you just get caught and executed before you're able to really contribute anything to the story.

Antag murderboners slaughtering the entire station with stolen AA, no slips and a water vapor power fist aren't victims who have been forced into the role by mean ol' shitsec.

Murderboners murderbone because murderboners like murderboning, murderboneringly. Change the "antags can just do whatever rule" if you want to fix that, don't complain SEC isn't magically fixing it.

Full blooded antags are meant be scary and overpowered threats. Sec is meant to exist as a hurdle for them to overcome, to make them earn their greentext. Maybe kill a few of them along the way. Not everyone gets to win. But enough should fall through the cracks to create a story that's actually worth retelling. "I metaknow X antags have to do Y objectives so I camped some common objective areas out, caught them bugging a room and executed them" is a story not worth retelling. It was barely worth telling in the first place.

If the point of the game is for antags to have fun by having a small but surmountable obstacle in SEC before they kill everybody and blow everything up we really need to change the wiki. And I'm not sure where the idea that it's SEC that's preventing antags from completing objectives, when the vast majority of antags either a)ignore their objectives or b)get lynched by non-SEC crew.


To be clear it's not that I disagree with the idea "SS13 is an emergent story simulator", only "SS13 is an emergent story simulator and here's what we've decided the story is going to be so here's what SEC has to do to make it happen". Doubly so when it's being shaped by admins, however well intentioned, who have let's say less than total comprehension of the actually existing systems involved and how how they play out on a shift-by-shift basis.

[NecromancerAnne]

The true secret to success as any security officer is unflinching violence to your enemies with extremely ineffective weapons.

If you stall your opponent for anything longer than a minute, that is a minute where your red corpse walking has prevented crime from occurring with a greater than average efficiency.

Oh, and I guess talk to people. If you want.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Im not so up to date on sec / assistant composition now that we're spread over more servers that I play less but it always used to be the case that the greyshits and the shitcurity were literally the same players, picking different sides round to round like you'd pick terrorist or counterterrorist in CS

[Shadowflame909]

Shitsec is the murderhobo who ruins the DMs game and makes the villains look like good guys in comparison.

Did you really have to spill the roundstart heretics brains on the brig floor then hide it in a toolbox to prevent any revival?

[Jonathan Gupta]

A buzzword.

[datorangebottle]

I've always maintained that there is no way to be a good security officer. No matter what you do, at the end of the day you're going to be called shitsec or shitcurity or whatever the new buzzword is. Involve yourself in a conflict, and the losing side will say you're powertripping. Don't involve yourself, and the losing side will call you worthless. Involve yourself and lose, and everyone will laugh you out of dchat. Involve yourself and win, and your achievements are minimized; you only won because you have better gear, better ping, you nolife security, whatever.

And that's what I think the raw essence of shitsec is. Optimally played sec, that goes through the game with a min-max approach of clearing their job content so they can call the shuttle and go to the next shift. No interactions. They don't contribute anything interesting. Too attached to their own personal win conditions to make the shift fun and/or enjoyable in the spirit of SS13. Approaching the game from a competitive rather than storytelling perspective. Sec that restricts the sandbox when played and forces everyone to either min-max too or perish.

Like someone who only randomname randomface sec mains so that people can't reliably peg him as a shitter, that barely speaks all round except for the purpose of hunting/pursuing antagonists? Yeah. I can get behind that.

► Show Spoiler

Just addressing some stuff in a spoiler that I couldn't address because I couldn't post in the Club for a bit.
Sec mains on their way to pretend that the AI can just ignore its laws and that any interference with distribution of JuStIcE is a rule 1 breach be like:

I am aware that antag status doesn't mean anything to default asimov, however while it is their responsibility it in the end is just the better option to not assist dangerous antags in any perceivable way (even if they're being murdered). While you cannot kill them if they're human it is still fair to intentionally turn a blind eye and not save a antag human or not. You aren't likely to have anyone come after you for it either

1: You may not harm a human being or, through action or inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except such that it is willing.

I'd rather not be jobbanned for deliberately breaking my basic laws, thanks. Try not harming humans next time, or being a little more subtle about it.

borg law two go into a closet in maintenance and never exit (until you note something that might be harmful to a human)

I know you're probably shitposting, but:

The occurrence of any of the following should be adminhelped and then disregarded as violations of Server Rule 1 :
[...]
Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task)

Telling someone to stand in a dark closet for the rest of the shift is definitely unreasonable and obnoxious. You can get the AI/borgs to look/go away without issuing ridiculous orders.

[san7890]

-snip, the following portion is within a spoiler in the parent post this is replying to-

borg law two go into a closet in maintenance and never exit (until you note something that might be harmful to a human)

I know you're probably shitposting, but:

The occurrence of any of the following should be adminhelped and then disregarded as violations of Server Rule 1 :
[...]
Obviously unreasonable or obnoxious orders (collect all X, do Y meaningless task)

Telling someone to stand in a dark closet for the rest of the shift is definitely unreasonable and obnoxious. You can get the AI/borgs to look/go away without issuing ridiculous orders.

It’s good that you’re aware of that part of Silicon Policy, I would argue a decent chunk people aren’t (and another set of people don’t know it’s explicitly written down but are just nice, considerate people to their fellow players).

[Zybwivcz]

Shitsec is the murderhobo who ruins the DMs game

Exactly, shitsec is the saviour who fights against DM railroading.

Like someone who only randomname randomface sec mains so that people can't reliably peg him as a shitter, that barely speaks all round except for the purpose of hunting/pursuing antagonists? Yeah. I can get behind that.

Talking about doing your job instead of ERPing in the library with the shitter metagang? *bwoink*

Those shitsec should take inspiration on how to contribute to the round from the 2 minute handtele tider who wordlessly loots every head's office and then immersively RPs calling you a fag when you arrest them before disconnecting in a brig cell.

We have a lot of underused tools sec never seem to use, but work perfectly for antags.

Lethal implants with a chem tracker, so if they hear joe schmoe is murderboning. A button press and their heart stops.

Mostly worthless. Even if they haven't just had it removed within two minutes of leaving brig it's countered by the advanced tactic known as 'drink a bottle of multiver'. Never seen another SEC use them either.

Electropacks,

Worthless unless you put them alone in permabrig in which case why bother?

Now that the gateway works again, you can toss them in it and shadow realm them with a exile implant.

Were a half decent idea, so naturally they're MIA. Plus with half the antags it's just letting them murderbone any normal crew who want to use the gateway.

The brainwashing machine!

Requires concerted effort by multiple departments, good luck with that.

A lot of options!

Yes, there are lots of options. Like fix permabrig so it's not escapable within five minutes on most stations by anybody who actually wants to leave it.

Or create a simple way to remove antag status from them without killing them. Don't even have to go to the trouble of coding some way to disable all antag abilities just replace their antag info with "You can't do antag shit anymore, follow normal crew rules".

Instead it's been decided that the only way to get close to that, by borging dead antags, is now worse than just leaving them lying in the brig morgue.

[sinfulbliss]

[a well-made case for why sec should RR every antag]

It's sort of crazy to read this because this is exactly what I would have said a year ago. All your points are correct. But you're missing one crucial thing which took me a while to realize: when you delete all the traitors from the round it makes the round suck. Not only for the traitors but for you too.

You have another option: put them in perma anyway, knowing full well that they will escape it in due time. Perhaps slap on a tracking implant if you want that extra reassurance. Or better still - give them a temporary sentence for the crimes they actually committed, take their traitor gear, and then send them on their merry way. Rounds are much more fun when you preserve the chaos by making what are technically "suboptimal" decisions as security. Being optimal unfortunately makes the round suck, and the better you are at it the more you make it suck.

Now if it's 80pop and there's a cult and blob and half the station is spaced? Go ahead and kill them. It all depends on the chaos levels.

[dirk_mcblade]

Im not so up to date on sec / assistant composition now that we're spread over more servers that I play less but it always used to be the case that the greyshits and the shitcurity were literally the same players, picking different sides round to round like you'd pick terrorist or counterterrorist in CS

What can you do as assistant that won't get you banned eventually for griefing? Petty crime?

[BONERMASTER]

Im not so up to date on sec / assistant composition now that we're spread over more servers that I play less but it always used to be the case that the greyshits and the shitcurity were literally the same players, picking different sides round to round like you'd pick terrorist or counterterrorist in CS

What can you do as assistant that won't get you banned eventually for griefing? Petty crime?

Your job.


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

[dirk_mcblade]

Im not so up to date on sec / assistant composition now that we're spread over more servers that I play less but it always used to be the case that the greyshits and the shitcurity were literally the same players, picking different sides round to round like you'd pick terrorist or counterterrorist in CS

What can you do as assistant that won't get you banned eventually for griefing? Petty crime?

Your job.


With warm regards
-BONERMASTER

Assistant's job is learning how to unbuckle yourself in arrival shuttle the first time and later, griefing. The job only exists due to some kind of tradition over tolerating crew members acting like apes occasionally.

[Pandarsenic]

Am I the only Assistant who actually just RPs with random people and helps them if they seem like they need it? C'mon.

[dirk_mcblade]

As far as I can tell most assistants prowl maintenance for floor pills and look for excuses to start blood feuds.

[toemas]

Am I the only Assistant who actually just RPs with random people and helps them if they seem like they need it? C'mon.

why would you want to talk to or help space station players

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Am I the only Assistant who actually just RPs with random people and helps them if they seem like they need it? C'mon.

We're a dying breed.

[Timonk]

Look guys I'm quirky!! I play assistant how it's supposed to be played!!

[sinfulbliss]

Am I the only Assistant who actually just RPs with random people and helps them if they seem like they need it? C'mon.

No, you’re not.