/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32207


Honestly they should just play on the other lrp servers instead of mrp if they want to blow up shuttle

since hijacking seems to be punishable (if you bomb to hijack)



i think its weird because if you dont bomb and you just break into the room or somehow kill people in the front and u start hijacking

everyone will rush 2 kill you

so its like either way youre gonna end up killing lots of people or being killed

Finally back to some good old fashioned Manuel hate threads.

I mean, do you need to hijack though

You cant murderbone on MRP until after you start the hijack. If I recall correctly

Obviously the appeal shortened the ban, but I was of the understanding that colleterial damage wasn't murderbone.

Colleterial wrote: If you for instance bomb your target, it is not considered murderboning if other individuals die in the explosion. This can include self-defense situations where individuals dying from a result of being in a crowd after you would also not be considered murderbone.

Right the fuck there. This is also not limited to bombs, just that bombs are a good source of common deaths via colleterial damage. A ricocheting bullet punching out a window and causing someone to suffocate/space wind grille zapped/killed via pressure is just a part of the magic of our environmental hazards, but equally also isn't an unnecessary killing, merely an incidental death as a result of your actions having unintended consequences. Antags are entirely safe from that, and we give people the benefit of the doubt when it occurs.

In this instance, the airlock that should have been there but wasn't was that caused the deaths. Not just them punching a hole in the shuttle. That's colleterial and not even necessarily their fault. Things were basically bound to go wrong because of that missing airlock. That's what they exist to prevent.

ive never had a problem with maia as antag, i've literally walked into her carrying an e-sword in maintenance before and i said hi and we hung out for a bit then i left

While some of my more memorable rounds are on Manuel I really don't recommend playing that server.

I feel like this implicitly disallows X-4 at all on Manuel.

I hate hijacks as much as anyone, but if you don't want to risk being hijacked, don't take the shuttle. If you go to the shuttle, accept that things might go wrong.

Manuel...the bane of chaos. I bet chef's don't even make chaos donuts!!!

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:08 am I feel like this implicitly disallows X-4 at all on Manuel.

I'm not going that far, but I think this definitely is inconsistent with both the rules and the allowances antags have. Feels like one of those 'from the hip' rulings, which might get used to be way more draconian about any kind of environmental damage. Incidental or intentional.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:26 am

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:08 am I feel like this implicitly disallows X-4 at all on Manuel.

I'm not going that far, but I think this definitely is inconsistent with both the rules and the allowances antags have. Feels like one of those 'from the hip' rulings, which might get used to be way more draconian about any kind of environmental damage. Incidental or intentional.

Didn't we recently have an entire policy thread about sabotage being legal on Manuel as long as you aren't actively trying to make it lethal? Like you can plasmaflood as long as you aren't throwing people back into the room, or welding them in, etc etc?

Wouldn't the issue here be that of all the tools they could've used to reach the console they chose explosives?

Are there any rulings regarding hijacking and murderbone?

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:20 pm Didn't we recently have an entire policy thread about sabotage being legal on Manuel as long as you aren't actively trying to make it lethal? Like you can plasmaflood as long as you aren't throwing people back into the room, or welding them in, etc etc?

We did. And you're right. Which is weird for why this fairly similar situation has come up. Obviously, there is the addition of other discussions with the player previously, but I feel like I'd be calling even those into question as well.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:28 pm Wouldn't the issue here be that of all the tools they could've used to reach the console they chose explosives?

Are there any rulings regarding hijacking and murderbone?

You can't murderbone the shuttle. Hijacking is limited to defending yourself against people coming into the room to stop you.

I've discussed this internally and I'm not sure I agree with this or with the previously mentioned ban where the antag antagonises someone, steals their eyes and round removes them. Is the suggestion really that the antag should have taken one of the other random pairs of eyes lying around or should not have round removed their target?

This ban feels targetted at the player far more than at their actions.

You should really bring that up in the appeal, Timber

Time to think on this regarding the rules as they are.

Is hijacking a prog tot objective? No.
Does it need to be one to play around the mechanic? No.

You can treat your objectives as suggestions on what you should attempt to achieve, but you are also encouraged to ignore them if you have a better idea.

What part of the rules could maybe be seen as the tipping point of enforcement here?

Do note that as an antagonist, your job ideally is to create an interesting story with the objectives, freedoms, and abilities as the framework to complete this task. This means:

Permission to kill is NOT the same as obligation to kill. Feel free to approach a situation as non-lethal as you’d like even if you would be okayed by the administration to kill.
Feel free to ask an admin to change your objectives or for permission to murderbone in the pursuit of running an interesting gimmick on a non-murderboning role. They might even be willing to make it easier to run!

Is bombing / spacing considering murderboning if it involves whatever your gameplay objective is?

No.

Collateral.
If you for instance bomb your target, it is not considered murderboning if other individuals die in the explosion. This can include self-defense situations where individuals dying from a result of being in a crowd after you would also not be considered murderbone.

Is self defense while working to complete objectives considered boning?

No.

Self-defense.
Someone actively trying to make it difficult for you to complete your objectives is fine to eliminate in pursuit of completing your objective. This would include witnesses.

Is this a situation where the following applies?

Murderboning IS

random killing without regard for or in direct violation of one's objectives
killing someone and being unable to explain why without going into deep hypotheticals such as "they could find the body if they happened to walk across the station to the opposite corner of the map", or “because I can (as antag)”
killing anyone without justification

Honestly, I feel like the part where people could be getting hung up is whether or not these rules could be attached to the decision to hijack because it isn't strictly listed as their objective.

And someone could be questioning if this could be without justification because of that.

If they came to those conclusions that it would be boning, and the person did not 'feel free to ahelp' I SUPPOSE I could understand.

In a situation where they took up a new objective of their own and didn't exactly hit one of the three bullet points on what boning is, is it reasonable to consider this boning?

Are antags to be held liable for situations and hazards indirectly caused by others? (The airlock between the shuttle and bridge not being there) Are we going to hold antags (and players) to the methods of playing the game that we believe are best?

(Also where is Cobby to jump to peoples defense regarding boning with me)

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:32 pm You should really bring that up in the appeal, Timber

Melbert and me are at some form of disagreement, the appeal itself isn't the proper place to resolve that discussion.

Suffice to say that, without looking at any of the actual context and speaking from a position of complete ignorance, the examples given feel like the exact kind of stuff antagonists should be doing.

That the murderbone rules have been interpreted that validity to kill is not validity to round remove, or that traitors should seek non-violent means to complete their objectives lest they fall foul of the murderbone rules, is something I staunchy disagree with and something I AM still looking to address (The updated MRP antag rules are still on the table and in discussion)

I hope you win Mr timberpoes. If you can't cause any area destruction. The hell is the point of a hardsuit? Preparation? What is manual surviving other than boredom and daily job activities?

I also hope this player who got undeservedly banned due to current manual playstyle (which such rule enforcement makes sense) over the legitimate rules and intended Headmins direction gets a traitor antag token for the lost hijack traitor attempt and undeserved ban.

There's a lot more at play than I'm letting on, of course. A lot of discussion about this player, their reputation for antaggery, their history and so on. All that extra nuance that doesn't come through well in quick soundbites.

I'm a bolshy cunt of a headmin though. And I'm getting bolshier and cuntier as the term wears on.

Fair! So easy to see the outcome and believe an admin banned innocent Ian. But stuff like this is backed by a bunch of similar admin remarks/ notes. I appreciate the reminder

Traitors don’t have to hijack anymore since they don’t have an objective, but if they do hijack, there’s no way they can do it without killing people on the shuttle.

I remember one time I was hijacking on Fulp which is MRP, and because of the no-murderbone ruleset (in fact you can’t even kill officers without first being pursued), I had to sort of just wait until people decided to attack me for it. Of course at that point there’s no way you’re going to hijack, since you’ll be lynched by several people.

So either hijack is now completely defunct on Manuel, or traitors are allowed to kill people on the shuttle if they feel like hijacking. Any in-betweens are nonsensical.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:35 pm There's a lot more at play than I'm letting on, of course.

Maybe, but it does feel somewhat distressing to see rulings like this directly contradicting the rules. Just from an outside perspective, this feels like there was a soft ban from antagonistic behavior, which ultimately elevated to a real ban once they did...frankly anything larger than a singular murder, which may not even necessarily be allowed either given the eye ban.

You aren't wrong. This gives the impression of targeted admin rulings at the exclusion of the actual encouraged way of play. If the intent is for them to not play antagonist at all, then this feels like a very underhanded way to work them towards that goal. Absolutely scrutinize why this started down this road.

This ban was applied mainly because you spaced the bridge of the emergency shuttle which had no airlock leading to the rest of it being depressurized in transit. By the time the shuttle landed, a majority of the people on it were in critical or dead. There was nothing wrong with defending yourself by hijacking the shuttle and the act of it itself isn't what caused the ban. However, the results of that action lead to the deaths of many when a shuttle hijacking could have occurred without wiping out the crew. With 800hrs+ and multiple rounds of playing as a traitor or nuclear operative, you should know that X-4 causes breaches on the tile it's on.

The main question is why there was no airlock leading to the shuttle bridge.
Was it caused by the traitor themselves or the people breaking in trying to stop her?
Or was it caused beforehand?

Hijacking isn't even a objective

its just a random thing u can do

and u shouldnt be punished for killing ppl before to make sure u dont get interupted

cus if u have to wait and alt click and let everyone know ur hijacking
do u have to juts alt click then attack people or do you have to at least finish it once to begin attacking ppl? if you can only attackp eople who are coming for u i feel like that can be hard cus then people could play around with stuns or dsiables.

antags should not be afraid to kill people

cus its like oh no i got stunned because i was afraid to kill them

and yeah i think knowing who broke bridge would be really nice

Archie700 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:56 am

This ban was applied mainly because you spaced the bridge of the emergency shuttle which had no airlock leading to the rest of it being depressurized in transit. By the time the shuttle landed, a majority of the people on it were in critical or dead. There was nothing wrong with defending yourself by hijacking the shuttle and the act of it itself isn't what caused the ban. However, the results of that action lead to the deaths of many when a shuttle hijacking could have occurred without wiping out the crew. With 800hrs+ and multiple rounds of playing as a traitor or nuclear operative, you should know that X-4 causes breaches on the tile it's on.

The main question is why there was no airlock leading to the shuttle bridge.
Was it caused by the traitor themselves or the people breaking in trying to stop her?
Or was it caused beforehand?

Your question is answered in the thing you're quoting. They X-4'd the shuttle bridge door to get in, and this spaced the shuttle bridge along with the rest of the station.

Citizens aren’t supposed to have guns

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:38 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:56 am

This ban was applied mainly because you spaced the bridge of the emergency shuttle which had no airlock leading to the rest of it being depressurized in transit. By the time the shuttle landed, a majority of the people on it were in critical or dead. There was nothing wrong with defending yourself by hijacking the shuttle and the act of it itself isn't what caused the ban. However, the results of that action lead to the deaths of many when a shuttle hijacking could have occurred without wiping out the crew. With 800hrs+ and multiple rounds of playing as a traitor or nuclear operative, you should know that X-4 causes breaches on the tile it's on.

The main question is why there was no airlock leading to the shuttle bridge.
Was it caused by the traitor themselves or the people breaking in trying to stop her?
Or was it caused beforehand?

Your question is answered in the thing you're quoting. They X-4'd the shuttle bridge door to get in, and this spaced the shuttle bridge along with the rest of the station.

Your side of the story: I spawned in as a traitor miner and screwed around on lavaland all shift, all of a sudden the shuttle gets called because apparently a plasma flood happened in atmos, i look at my 20TC and 200 rep and say fuck it, lets hijack, i ran to the chapel and 3 other (presumably) traitors told me they wanted a way to the bridge of the shuttle, i was already planning on buying explosives to get in and slapped an X4 onto the chapel window parrallel to the bridge, when it didnt gen through enough i slapped another down and breached it, i drove the people in there out and started hijacking, got spaced, got back to the shuttle, tried to hijack again, stabbed a few people trying to stop me, and then got bwoinked for murderbone and copped a permanent antag ban, i understand this could be frustrating for some of the players onboard the shuttle but my goal was to hijack, and i didnt (murderbone) i didnt go out of my way to kill a bunch of people, i only attacked those who posed a direct threat to me on the shuttle except for a doctor i accidentally stabbed.

Neither one said that they blew the shuttle door themselves. The hijacker accessed the bridge by blowing through the chapel.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:38 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:38 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:56 am

This ban was applied mainly because you spaced the bridge of the emergency shuttle which had no airlock leading to the rest of it being depressurized in transit. By the time the shuttle landed, a majority of the people on it were in critical or dead. There was nothing wrong with defending yourself by hijacking the shuttle and the act of it itself isn't what caused the ban. However, the results of that action lead to the deaths of many when a shuttle hijacking could have occurred without wiping out the crew. With 800hrs+ and multiple rounds of playing as a traitor or nuclear operative, you should know that X-4 causes breaches on the tile it's on.

The main question is why there was no airlock leading to the shuttle bridge.
Was it caused by the traitor themselves or the people breaking in trying to stop her?
Or was it caused beforehand?

Your question is answered in the thing you're quoting. They X-4'd the shuttle bridge door to get in, and this spaced the shuttle bridge along with the rest of the station.

Your side of the story: I spawned in as a traitor miner and screwed around on lavaland all shift, all of a sudden the shuttle gets called because apparently a plasma flood happened in atmos, i look at my 20TC and 200 rep and say fuck it, lets hijack, i ran to the chapel and 3 other (presumably) traitors told me they wanted a way to the bridge of the shuttle, i was already planning on buying explosives to get in and slapped an X4 onto the chapel window parrallel to the bridge, when it didnt gen through enough i slapped another down and breached it, i drove the people in there out and started hijacking, got spaced, got back to the shuttle, tried to hijack again, stabbed a few people trying to stop me, and then got bwoinked for murderbone and copped a permanent antag ban, i understand this could be frustrating for some of the players onboard the shuttle but my goal was to hijack, and i didnt (murderbone) i didnt go out of my way to kill a bunch of people, i only attacked those who posed a direct threat to me on the shuttle except for a doctor i accidentally stabbed.

Neither one said that they blew the shuttle door themselves. The hijacker accessed the bridge by blowing through the chapel.

Bingo.

Why does Manuel even have antagonists if people obviously don't want to be antagonized.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:43 pm -snip-

Got anything on why the shuttle bridge airlock was gone?

imagine banning someone because people had to stand around for 4 minutes as a ghost for the round to end instead of standing around for 4 minutes as a guy in a shuttle chair