spacelaw outlaw nut

[sinfulbliss]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32452

perhaps the first time enforcing spacelaw has gotten someone noted before ((publicly))

whats the verdict fellas

[SkeletalElite]

A group of players forced their way into the brig and attacked a security oiffcer.

Bad note, would have been justified in perma or round removal at that point, gulag is leniant by comparison.

[BONERMASTER]

The most dangerous person to the security officer is not the violent, murdering criminal, but the clueless admin that will note them for the arrest.


With wary regards
-BONERMASTER

[chocolate_bickie]

What a shitty note.

CMO got involved in someone elses conflict and instead of taking it on the chin when they got out robusted ahelps.

I'd be really intrested in seeing the initial ahelp because it seems that they likely lied about the details of this encounter.

[Kendrickorium]

I believe a more proper chain of escalation would have been to remove both their heads, THEN send them to the gulag.

[dirk_mcblade]

Ss13 players cry harder to admins than professional soccer players do to refs

[Misdoubtful]

Why did they ahelp when they got a short gulag sentence for doing crime? (The answer is below, they expected it would take an hour to complete their sentence thanks to talking about it IC)

Also the fun story of revenge murder against sec later on for a valid arrest detailed below. (The punishment was brought into question, not the arrest)

The altercation isn't really in question I guess but...

I don't see the shove, maybe it was this:

► Show Spoiler

Non-antag CMO for the future btw:

► Show Spoiler

Expecting the gulag to take an hour and calling the gods IC:

► Show Spoiler

Telling the HOS they are going to merk a sec-off because they got got:

► Show Spoiler

Killing the seccie that valid arrested them:

► Show Spoiler

Bonus humor:

► Show Spoiler

Seccie death:

► Show Spoiler

Round end timer:

► Show Spoiler

Food for thought. I'd be pretty annoyed if I got killed over a valid arrest, especially if I felt my response to it was kosher and had to deal with administrative overhead about it earlier on (regardless of whether I was in the right or not) and had something to point to. I fully understand the frustration here.

Related rule:

3. For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins.

Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. However, security should refrain from confiscating items not related to any crimes, especially important department-specific items like hard suits. Obvious exceptions to this are things like radio headsets, if players use it to harass security over the radio while being arrested.

Semi-related headmin ruling:

viewtopic.php?p=510239#p510239

I think we are talking about edge cases here. Space law is a suggestion, and I wouldn't blame a warden that decides to gulag a lot of people when they're having a round full of tiders, but no, essentially, gulagging should not be equivalent to a regular brig sentence, you are right.
We have agreed that gulagging is fine as it is, and anything you can complain about is probably an issue with them as a security player rather than something we can act on. You are free to ahelp if you think the punishment is harsher than it should be, but it's difficult to pinpoint whether or not it's fair without an actual case, which should probably be handled by admins in-game instead of policy.

Also thanks Wesoda in that one:

500 points takes less than 5 minutes. If you actually put in the work it’s usually far lesser than any other sentence you’d be getting. I don’t really use it as sec, but I can acknowledge that its very effective for dealing with shitters.

Also related from Shaps:

If people stopped being stupid and spending 15 minutes ahelping and staring at a wall over a 300 point sentence it wouldn't be a problem

I'm not really trying to look at the spacelaw aspect, just the is this something that can be reasonably done in 10 minutes aspect based on the whole "are gulag sentences really that time intensive" thing, aside from the time they burnt ahelping when they could have served their time. Is that a reasonable reaction to this all? Would this be the same situation if it was just normal brigging?

[sinfulbliss]

-snip-

Jesus christ that's bad

Imagine validly gulagging someone for 400 points, after which they "call the gods," come back to poison and murder you, dance on your corpse teasing you IC, and then you get bwoinked and noted.
I would be absolutely fuming. I've seen this player play HoS before by the way, he absolutely knows that the gulag doesn't take 1 hour to complete (or if he doesn't then he surely found out while there!)

He should be investigated for banbaiting.

[CursedBirb]

Also it's really easy to run away from gulag too. Im always baffled when I see sec department players not knowing ways of escaping their own perma or gulag

[trexter555]

dont cmo and qm already have access to the brig, or was this a different area of the brig they were trying to get into that they didnt have access

[chocolate_bickie]

dont cmo and qm already have access to the brig, or was this a different area of the brig they were trying to get into that they didnt have access

I think he was in the briefing room, the area with the protolathe. QM and CMO don't have access to that room.

[datorangebottle]

[2022-09-11 03:34:44.266] ATTACK: [table] shoved Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) with onto the table (table) (NEWHP: 100) (Security Office (116,172,2))

holy shit this man got absolutely BODIED by that table.

[Misdoubtful]

[2022-09-11 03:34:44.266] ATTACK: [table] shoved Nope22/(Christopher Priebe) with onto the table (table) (NEWHP: 100) (Security Office (116,172,2))

holy shit this man got absolutely BODIED by that table.

Tables are out to get us when we least expect it.

[Scriptis]

3. For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins.

I don't vibe with this note at all, 400 points is like three minutes' worth of work and is an excellent choice for anyone tiding into the brig and shoving you

I'd invoke rule ten here, CMO fucked around and found out

edit: I get that this policy only covers brig timers, but the spirit and reasoning behind the rule is "fuck around and find out" and, more importantly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnMdI_NiZvA

[Misdoubtful]

3. For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins.

I don't vibe with this note at all, 400 points is like three minutes' worth of work and is an excellent choice for anyone tiding into the brig and shoving you

I'd invoke rule ten here, CMO fucked around and found out

I get that the gulag is written as something separate, but its written in the same breath that perma is, as if both are permanent.

If someone isn't perma-gulagging someone, why wouldn't they just suck it up, be smart about it, and they might get through it faster because they actually did something besides alt-tab through their jail timer.

Its like Paradise having the treadmill jail cell where you can run on the treadmill to decrease your sentence, but a whole lot more interesting.

[Pandarsenic]

I can't lie, I really don't like the vibe of this note. I've said it elsewhere, but Heads can be antags and - even if they aren't - Head Tide is at least as obnoxious as Gray Tide, maybe even more so because of the increased access and the responsibilities they're ignoring to do it.

It honestly feels more than a little ban-bait-y to me to invade Security, attack someone in their workplace, ahelp immediately when you lose, and then come back later to kill them.

[Chimpston]

lol (part 2)

[toemas]

Look at how much text they wrote!! PLEASE learn brevity!! this is NOT necessary

[Kendrickorium]

imagine having to read all that shit in order to respond to an admin that noted you for issuing a fucking gulag sentence after getting tided by 2 heads, one of which goes back to kill you and then gloats about it
I would be furious

[Kendrickorium]

"Lastly, and this goes back to your initial reaction to the ahelp. Upon me asking you what happened with the CMO, you immediately hostile regarding the CMO and tell me that you were "hoping" he would ahelp the situation. This tells me one of two things (potentially both). Either you also felt the sentence was unjust and worthy of an ahelp, which certainly does not speak in your favor in regards to this appeal. Or, alternatively and more in line with everything else that I'm seeing based on the ticket and the logs, you have a personal issue with the player and used IC means to punish them. Again, this does not help you, and only serves to strengthen by belief that you appear to be trying to hide behind Space Law as a means to punish another player."

it means he was glad he was pissed off at getting gulagged you fucking dumbass
if you want to call him out for metagrudging, do it and then prove it from previous interactions
no one has the patience for this roundabout longwinded bullshit
good lord this shit makes me mad

[Super Aggro Crag]

trialmins...

[dirk_mcblade]

imagine having to read all that shit in order to respond to an admin that noted you for issuing a fucking gulag sentence after getting tided by 2 heads, one of which goes back to kill you and then gloats about it
I would be furious

Honestly seems to indicate bad faith on the admin's part for just doing a word dump to make arguing against this note as difficult as possible.

[Pandarsenic]

That's not what bad faith means

[dirk_mcblade]

That's not what bad faith means

The admin has an obligation to succinctly explain their side of the issue. This is a situation where a sec office gulagged someone for acting like a tider. It shouldn't require the appeal writer to read War & Peace to understand the admin's point. It seems like an attempt to just wear out the appealer rather than respond honestly to their point.

[BONERMASTER]

CD key

Couldn't have written a better defense against metagrudging myself. Excellently done.


With admiring regards
-BONERMASTER

[datorangebottle]

the good news for Mr. Nope here is that admin complaints and ban appeals are not mutually exclusive, and you're actually supposed to appeal the ban/note first.

[toemas]

the "tiding" that started this incident was just the QM standing in the cargo security checkpoint after another officer(me) opened the door and let them in.This guy's a bit of a caveman, the note is probably deserved. Stop shitting on the trialmin because they're actually very nice

[BONERMASTER]

I don't know, this much bed-shitting over five minutes of work in the labor camp reeks of insanity or admin abuse to me, plus it was completely legitimate, assault of an officer in a mob, what else is there to discuss? And now their "trainer" comes in with another wall of text, among it this:

is this the sort of set of interactions we want to see from a security officer towards other players?

go touch grass you absolute lunatic, you're the reason why people quit security.
There are no consequences for all the shitty calls you make, but you want security with incomplete information and at the risk of round removal to not only be held to a higher standard than you, but also do your job for you aswell. Leave your nose out of the security department, let other admins that actually know what they're talking about, take these tickets. That's how your thousands of hours of "experience", being a ghost and CMO, will be best spent as.


With secure regards
-BONERMASTER

[iain0]

go touch grass you absolute lunatic, you're the reason why people quit security.
There are no consequences for all the shitty calls you make, but you want security with incomplete information and at the risk of round removal to not only be held to a higher standard than you, but also do your job for you aswell. Leave your nose out of the security department, let other admins that actually know what they're talking about, take these tickets. That's how your thousands of hours of "experience", being a ghost and CMO, will be best spent as.

I don't think asking security to be a bit more interactive than no interaction is all that much. But there's bound to be different takes on mechanics versus RP. Still, pleasant comment, good to chat.

Edit: You may also be surprised how little i care for the greytide versus sec and how many actions I've taken against the tide, I'm more inclined to land on the sec side of things generally. But I'm sure you don't really want to know and will assess me based on your in depth analysis of my scrubby (presumably)

Actually you wouldn't get that from scrubby, but whatever. Two key events for me, last time i played sec i got griefed and looted by 3 non antag assistants, who i ahelped, and then suicided out of the round and didn't play sec since. I've also watched security straight up suicide rather than deal with the frothing non antag tide at the brig, those moments pain me as a failure of administration, and I'd like to think we've clamped down on that a lot on Terry and improved things (make of that what you will really). I don't have a lot of care for grief against sec. But I also do want sec to put more in than the average armed greyshirt

[Misdoubtful]

I didn't know anyone here was actually 'shitting on the trialmin' about this. Noting where text structure and brevity could exist is a valid criticism, even if its not in the most constructive way right now.
I'll be real though, I feel like during my time on TG I've only seen the length of posts made by people increase just in general. I thought the battle was practically a dead one.

---

Plus, the dude is welcome to be mad about it, its their choice on whether they want to threaten a complaint or not while being mad.

Its called venting during a frustrating situation. When even just one side ends up arguing with the intent to win, constantly reiterating the same things, or lists straight up facts rather than to explain their side and/or generate a mutual understanding to be learned from things just devolve into talking to a wall for both sides and pisses people off.

Happens all the time, to people all the time. Conflict resolution ain't exactly everyone's strong suit.

[cybersaber101]

I have no clue how anyone's eyes aren't suppose to glaze over the amount written, my god.

[Zybwivcz]

I don't know why but I immediately like this admin

[Kendrickorium]

the "tiding" that started this incident was just the QM standing in the cargo security checkpoint after another officer(me) opened the door and let them in.This guy's a bit of a caveman, the note is probably deserved. Stop shitting on the trialmin because they're actually very nice

I love ivy too but holy shit they shouldnt have to write a short story defending a note for a gulag sentence

[Kendrickorium]

go touch grass you absolute lunatic, you're the reason why people quit security.
There are no consequences for all the shitty calls you make, but you want security with incomplete information and at the risk of round removal to not only be held to a higher standard than you, but also do your job for you aswell. Leave your nose out of the security department, let other admins that actually know what they're talking about, take these tickets. That's how your thousands of hours of "experience", being a ghost and CMO, will be best spent as.

I don't think asking security to be a bit more interactive than no interaction is all that much. But there's bound to be different takes on mechanics versus RP. Still, pleasant comment, good to chat.

Edit: You may also be surprised how little i care for the greytide versus sec and how many actions I've taken against the tide, I'm more inclined to land on the sec side of things generally. But I'm sure you don't really want to know and will assess me based on your in depth analysis of my scrubby (presumably)

Actually you wouldn't get that from scrubby, but whatever. Two key events for me, last time i played sec i got griefed and looted by 3 non antag assistants, who i ahelped, and then suicided out of the round and didn't play sec since. I've also watched security straight up suicide rather than deal with the frothing non antag tide at the brig, those moments pain me as a failure of administration, and I'd like to think we've clamped down on that a lot on Terry and improved things (make of that what you will really). I don't have a lot of care for grief against sec. But I also do want sec to put more in than the average armed greyshirt

good take, basically what it boils down to is holy shit for the love of god just talk a little bit more
this whole gulag and note and ordeal could have been likely completely avoided if the sec officer had just said hey why is this locker open and all this stuff littered around? and then had a nice chat with the QM
of course, it goes both ways, EVERYONE needs to chat more in this game before just performing actions, something we are all guilty of failing to do from time to time

[Lacran]

I don't think asking security to be a bit more interactive than no interaction is all that much. But there's bound to be different takes on mechanics versus RP. Still, pleasant comment, good to chat.

I don't think waxing poetic about sec standards in a note appeal about a 700 point gulag sentence is remotely constructive or conducive to encouraging Sec to RP. This is an incredibly simple situation that you've really done nothing but disrupt with soap boxing.

An appeal is about whether or not the noted conduct was warranted or fair, its not a place for a diatribe about how people ought to be playing.

[Kendrickorium]

ANOTHER FUCKING WALL OF TEXT ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME

SHIT WAS FOR GULAGGING FOR GREYTIDING

IF YOU NEED THAT MANY WORDS TO DEFEND A NOTE THEN SOMETHING AINT RIGHT HERE

[cybersaber101]

ANOTHER FUCKING WALL OF TEXT ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME

SHIT WAS FOR GULAGGING FOR GREYTIDING

IF YOU NEED THAT MANY WORDS TO DEFEND A NOTE THEN SOMETHING AINT RIGHT HERE

ya and with how often you post in this thread you may reach a similar word count, Ian0's last word dump being about 2200 words(somewhere in the ballpark of a USA undergrad essay length of between 1500 and 5000 words average OR 1200 words more than a highschool essay)

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

CMO didn't break in, they had the AI open the door

I'm confused. Why did the CMO need the AI to open the door for him? Don't all Heads of staff start with Brig access? Or is that only on lowpop?

Also, assuming they didn't have access, this IS still breaking and entering, and the CMO IS doing a criminal b & e in this context. Having an AI open a door for you doesn't mean you're allowed to be there, the AI just happens to have the power to open the door. It can't deny an order to open the door, assuming it's Asimov. There is no difference between ordering the AI to open a door and using a screwdriver, multitool, and crowbar.

[chocolate_bickie]

I'm really getting sick of ban appeals where the admin moves the goalpost.

You were banned for giving a too long gulag sentence.

Actually it was for metagrudging.

Actually it's for not talking enough in game.

It's just shit flinging, hoping something will stick, rather than a concrete ban reason.

[kieth4]

Cap then suggests 7 minutes. Which you again ignore. After some hesitation (again, he just got stunned for seemingly no reason and you seem hellbent on gulag even against his advice, understandable confusion on Cap's behalf here) Cap again suggests "just prison them". All of this you ignore, and originally set them up to be sent to gulag for 700 points, with a comment of "think about it before you attack an officer next time shitlord"

I have a few hours in security and everytime I've brought up Gulag to admins I've been told 100 points = 1 minute. So how is this ignoring the cap???? 700 points is 7 minutes is it not?

[BONERMASTER]

Besides, what is this captain doing butting in and trying to micromanage a 5 minute gulag sentence? I'm sure the officer already has a mum, get off his dick already.


With polite regards
-BONERMASTER

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I'm really getting sick of ban appeals where the admin moves the goalpost.

You were banned for giving a too long gulag sentence.

Actually it was for metagrudging.

Actually it's for not talking enough in game.

It's just shit flinging, hoping something will stick, rather than a concrete ban reason.

Aye, this.

If the reason keeps shapeshifting like an amorphous blob, like in this appeal, at that point, they don't need a note, the admin needs someone to sit down with them and talk to them about how to be a big boy and learn to take an L.

[Lacran]

Giant walls of text, rulings and opinions that are just straight up incorrect, goalpost shifting and really weird conjecture about metagrudging.

Really scummy conduct in a note appeal where they are categorically overreaching.

[Dax Dupont]

The player did nothing wrong

[Qbmax32]

The player did nothing wrong

[Qbmax32]

The player did nothing wrong

[Pandarsenic]

The player did nothing wrong

The player did nothing wrong

[iwishforducks]

The player did nothing wrong

The player did nothing wrong

The player did nothing wrong

The player did nothing wrong

[sinfulbliss]

"As security, made two near wordless arrests, leading to a dramatic confrontation which resulted in a sentence perceived to be harsh by the prisoner. The reasoning and context for the punishment was never clarified in a way that gave understanding to prior events that impacted the sentence to the individual who was being punished. Asked to be more non-mechanically interactive in their approach and be open to and considerate of additional information and opinions from other impacted parties to potentially reach a better resolution for all those involved

This new note has a LOT of issues that make me wonder if certain beliefs are being enforced as rules.

1. “Near wordless arrests”
This is allowed, has always been allowed. It’s not always practical to announce you will be arresting someone before doing so, and the fact “near wordless” is used says to me it wasn’t even wordless. Why include this as a subtle way to neg the player?

2. “The reason and context for the punishment was never clarified […] to the individual”
This is also not worth mentioning because it’s allowed. Generally you can assume people know why they’re being brigged, and you also don’t need to explain why every time. Very odd to mention this like sec officers are expected to explain to every prisoner why they’re being brigged even if they just caught them committing the crimes they’re being brigged for.

3. “Asked to be more non-mechanically interactive in their approach”
No idea what this is suggesting. If the CMO and QM force their way into brig and begin their “”non mechanical interaction”” by tableshoving and attempting to baton him, how can you expect him to respond with RP?

[Zybwivcz]

1. “Near wordless arrests”
This is allowed, has always been allowed. It’s not always practical to announce you will be arresting someone before doing so, and the fact “near wordless” is used says to me it wasn’t even wordless. Why include this as a subtle way to neg the player?