/tg/Station 13

Who told goof about how some weapons got upgrades due to wounds?

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71256

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71255

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71254

Lethal weaponry increases paranoia and fun. A lack of access to lethal weapons makes every murder a boring, drawn-out shoving match.

I can't even bribe goof to keep elances since he doesn't play the game.

the time to kill has ever so slowly gone up over the years, when will toolboxes kill people in 3?

great, how will we defend against antags now?

Armed melee combat is boring already. It's itching for a rework.

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:43 pm Armed melee combat is boring already. It's itching for a rework.

It depends on the weapon. You can't honestly tell me that using a desword is boring.

The only way to engage into armed melee combat click on your opponent until they die, while you avoid being clicked on.

We see a little bit of complexity when people incorporated thrown weapons into their style, but I would like to see more on the core melee side of things.

Special attacks, weapon categories, universal blocking, counter attacks. Something to solve pixel hunting. Attacks of opportunity. Grappling while armed. Marking enemies.

And more controversially:
More RNG

goofball is a codebase terrorist

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:02 pm The only way to engage into armed melee combat click on your opponent until they die, while you avoid being clicked on.

We see a little bit of complexity when people incorporated thrown weapons into their style, but I would like to see more on the core melee side of things.

Special attacks, weapon categories, universal blocking, counter attacks. Something to solve pixel hunting. Attacks of opportunity. Grappling while armed. Marking enemies.

And more controversially:
More RNG

I agree with most of these ideas, except for anything that involves truly random rng. If we want things to be more random I think it would be better to add a skill & stat system, like G.U.R.P.S. While a proper skill & stat system would be way out of scope for tg, relying on pure rng would make combat feel bad.

I honestly think the explosive lance should have a unique held icon. I don't hate the lance, but I'm not going to miss it either.

The butcher's cleaver is cool when a chef has it. Not so cool when every assistant has one because they can print it at the magical autolathe. Funny weapons like that should be more restricted, or have a more interesting and illicit way of obtaining them that isn't just printing them at the lathe.

I agree with making surgical tools bulky, but not because of combat. It would be nice if a person can carry engineering, medical, or security tools, but not all three at the same time. They all should be bulky really. I don't like it when people can handle absolutely every situation themselves because they are carrying 3 departments worth of gear in them. More cooperation should be needed. Toolbelts will be able to carry bulky tools, and tools that were already bulky would be huge.

I personally couldn't care less about lances and cleavers, and rarely see them being used lately anyway. But having the saw be a bulky item is stupid and affects doctors the most.

Imagine not being able to carry the saw in your toolbelt as a doctor, having to leave it in a table, or carry it in your hand all the time, just to make it easier for Joe Tider to come running and steal it from you.

Changing the size of items never effects validhunters, only antags. An innocent person does not give two shits if they are seen with three spears on them or a circular saw in both hands, but it immediately tells everyone "this person is dangerous" which is a terrible thing when you are trying to sneak around and commit evil.

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:09 pm great, how will we defend against antags now?

I'm sure oranges or goof is going to chime in here to say you shouldn't be able to, actually, and here's my 50 page design doc on Why That's A Good Thing

Mice World wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:17 pm I agree with most of these ideas, except for anything that involves truly random rng. If we want things to be more random I think it would be better to add a skill & stat system, like G.U.R.P.S. While a proper skill & stat system would be way out of scope for tg, relying on pure rng would make combat feel bad.

Man, I gotta run a GURPS game set in SS13 one of these days

Farquaar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:03 am

Mice World wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:17 pm I agree with most of these ideas, except for anything that involves truly random rng. If we want things to be more random I think it would be better to add a skill & stat system, like G.U.R.P.S. While a proper skill & stat system would be way out of scope for tg, relying on pure rng would make combat feel bad.

Man, I gotta run a GURPS game set in SS13 one of these days

Stars Without Number handles SS13 pretty well, having run my demo game for that system in an SS13 scenario. It's a sci-fi game that leans towards heroic and less crunch but it's still OSR.

Ziiro wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:10 am Stars Without Number handles SS13 pretty well, having run my demo game for that system in an SS13 scenario. It's a sci-fi game that leans towards heroic and less crunch but it's still OSR.

Interesting. I'll look into it.

If I ever do run it, I'd run it Paranoia-style with player-unique objectives and high mortality (but with a limited number of clones at Centcomm).

As someone who ends up doing surgery because nobody else will in a fair number of rounds, thank GOD the saw change didn't get merged

I don't care about drills, I usually don't carry those because there's one (1) surgery with a drill involved, but I'd rather we have 2+ surgeries with the drill instead of a drill nerf.

I'm not convinced there's a problem with the cleaver printing and I won't be until we get an analysis of how often it happens. I doubt Goof will do this himself (no offense intended if you see this, it just doesn't seem like your MO) so I'll probably have to be the one to make sure it happens.

Elances have always been bullshit, and I'm happy to see them going.

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:02 pm The only way to engage into armed melee combat click on your opponent until they die, while you avoid being clicked on.

We see a little bit of complexity when people incorporated thrown weapons into their style, but I would like to see more on the core melee side of things.

Special attacks, weapon categories, universal blocking, counter attacks. Something to solve pixel hunting. Attacks of opportunity. Grappling while armed. Marking enemies.

And more controversially:
More RNG

Yeah honestly I agree. Let’s step it up from “avoid being clicked”.

Ziiro wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:01 am I'm sure oranges or goof is going to chime in here to say you shouldn't be able to, actually, and here's my 50 page design doc on Why That's A Good Thing

but… muh right to validhunt…

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:09 pm great, how will we defend against antags now?

if you needed crew ei nath to fight antags you were a player relying on a crutch

I actually really like the cleaver change. Why the hell were cleavers still mass producable?

Nobody has given a shit about the contraband wire on vendors/the autolathe since like 2015 anyway

I liked elances, they were a one click Fuck You that I always found funny
the fact that some random guy with a grenade strapped to a stick is a threat no matter how geared up you are is something I've always appreciated

Yeah I did not expect to use the cleavers and elances anytime soon anyway. I did not see both in use in any round I attended and it was sorta justified. Cleavers were for chefs more than anything and elances were not used as much. The saw PR sucked a lot though, because if you use that logic, then why isn’t the chef’s knife bulky as well?

In all honesty overall indifferent on the two PR changes. But I really really want to see more changes to combat (even small tweaks would work) itself instead of balancing. I don’t see much problems to balance as of now.

The e-lance one is fine because it was fairly easy to get for how strong it was. They were definitely funny, but bad for game balance.

The others are bad for reasons orange man already specified.

Wait I just actually went and read the PR and it says saws would still fit in medbelts. Yeah I got no issues with any of these then.

i have more issues with the chunky fingers preventing the use of batons pr

saprasam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:44 pm i have more issues with the chunky fingers preventing the use of batons pr

What the fuck why is goof nerfing hulk

It literally is on the verge of uselessness. What good is buffed melee damage if you can't do shit else?

Just Laser the hulk!!!

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 6:43 am

saprasam wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:44 pm i have more issues with the chunky fingers preventing the use of batons pr

What the fuck why is goof nerfing hulk

It literally is on the verge of uselessness. What good is buffed melee damage if you can't do shit else?

Just Laser the hulk!!!

It's 20 force punches with omega wounds. They don't need a baton, they will probably win anyways in a melee situation. A baton won't save them from a ranged situation. All this does is remove NRP hulk gameplay (using a baton as a hulk just doesn't make sense), and encourage HRP hulk gameplay such as smashing things with your fists.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71325 goof's war on combat continues

(no he hasnt played in a month)

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:24 am https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71325 goof's war on combat continues

(no he hasnt played in a month)

Nah, this is fine. Using hotkeys shouldn't let you bypass an internal cooldown like that, it's a consistency issue.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:18 am

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:24 am https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71325 goof's war on combat continues

(no he hasnt played in a month)

Nah, this is fine. Using hotkeys shouldn't let you bypass an internal cooldown like that, it's a consistency issue.

seems like a genuine skill issue to me. why do we have a built-in cooldown for clicking anyhow? it seems more like it's there to stop you from clicking an item right back into the inventory rather than to be applied to combat scenarios.

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:24 am https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71325

Awful PR.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:18 am Nah, this is fine. Using hotkeys shouldn't let you bypass an internal cooldown like that, it's a consistency issue.

According to goofball himself, there is no click cooldown for pulling things out of your inventory. Nothing was being bypassed, its not a consistency issue. This new cooldown is only going to be applied to quick equip hotkeys.
This also wont do anything to stop macro abuse; anything that quick equip keybinds can do, are almost certainly able to be emulated with a macro, if they really want to bypass the cooldown.
This is just another wierd combat nerf of his.

Our combat is absolutely trash, and is just spaceman on steroids running around at incredible speeds trying to click each other. At least the cooldown with reduce the lightning speeds people can pull out their weapons and manage inventory.

This is such an odd change. On the one hand it seems like an overly-specific bandaid fix (If it's to stop cheaters why isnt there also a cooldown for actually mouse clicking since cheaters arent restricted to their mouse's actual onscreen movement) but on the other the idea that using hotkeys and full bags to bind your click to "draw stunbaton from bag + click in one go" isnt exploiting that needs to be removed is weird

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:39 am Our combat is absolutely trash, and is just spaceman on steroids running around at incredible speeds trying to click each other. At least the cooldown with reduce the lightning speeds people can pull out their weapons and manage inventory.

This opinion has always bugged the shit out of me because SS13 isn't a fucking combat simulator. It's a role-playing game. It's not supposed to have in-depth high-end PvP combat, it's supposed to be about doing your job on a hell-hole of a space station.

Too many people treat the game like it's AMOGUS 2.0 mixed with COD and it really needs to stop.

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:39 am Our combat is absolutely trash, and is just spaceman on steroids running around at incredible speeds trying to click each other. At least the cooldown with reduce the lightning speeds people can pull out their weapons and manage inventory.

How the fuck is reducing the fluidity and ease of control in combat going to improve it exactly? Are you brain damaged or something?

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:33 pm Too many people treat the game like it's AMOGUS 2.0 mixed with COD and it really needs to stop.

The server's rules foster this. The only people who are responsible for this mentality are the admins and headmins. If this is occurring, you only have yourselves to blame, nobody else.

Moreso, just being competent with the games combat mechanics is not a character flaw. It's fine for you not to engage, because there is a lot more to this game than its silly combat, but claiming it is depthless is senseless.

It neglects that combat often can go hand in hand with horribly designed workplace hazards turned to lethal opportunistic violence against your fellow spaceman. While it often is just clicking people horizontal with the biggest stick you find, good combat is turning fights into a slapstick routine, which is hilarious. That's what makes it appealing to me. Improvised physical comedy. Which makes even fights I'm losing worth it.

I use hotkeys to speed up construction of machines. Gonna be sad if this makes me wait half a second between putting each part in.

Hopefully this fixes the issue with someone making a macro to spam throw glass shards at someone and insta gib someone. (Or whatever people use to do that)

Shellton(Mario) wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:12 pm Hopefully this fixes the issue with someone making a macro to spam throw glass shards at someone and insta gib someone. (Or whatever people use to do that)

That got fixed a long time ago with throw cooldowns

There was a hardcoded cooldown on how fast you could click things in the Old Days and it was BYOND awful. NEVER bring back anything like it PLEASE.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:01 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:33 pm Too many people treat the game like it's AMOGUS 2.0 mixed with COD and it really needs to stop.

The server's rules foster this. The only people who are responsible for this mentality are the admins and headmins. If this is occurring, you only have yourselves to blame, nobody else.

Moreso, just being competent with the games combat mechanics is not a character flaw. It's fine for you not to engage, because there is a lot more to this game than its silly combat, but claiming it is depthless is senseless.

It neglects that combat often can go hand in hand with horribly designed workplace hazards turned to lethal opportunistic violence against your fellow spaceman. While it often is just clicking people horizontal with the biggest stick you find, good combat is turning fights into a slapstick routine, which is hilarious. That's what makes it appealing to me. Improvised physical comedy. Which makes even fights I'm losing worth it.

I think giving certain common weapons a durability meter would make combats devolving like this more common.

You hit your toolbox on 100 things of course it broke and turned into a stack of metal rods!

ChristopherRobin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:02 pm I use hotkeys to speed up construction of machines. Gonna be sad if this makes me wait half a second between putting each part in.

This 100%. Having spent enough time to memorize the steps used in the common surgeries and using hotkeys allows surgery to not be a slog of wasting time waiting on click cooldowns and surgery steps. Its one of the mechanical things that separates skilled doctors from new ones.

>fulp merged the hulk nerf

how am i going to get the jump on sec as a heretic now???

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:09 am >fulp merged the hulk nerf

how am i going to get the jump on sec as a heretic now???

"""hulk nerf""" which is actually just another fuck you to insuls

insulated mutation is a requirement if you dont want your antag rounds ended instantly by a shocked door

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:29 am

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:09 am >fulp merged the hulk nerf

how am i going to get the jump on sec as a heretic now???

"""hulk nerf""" which is actually just another fuck you to insuls

insulated mutation is a requirement if you dont want your antag rounds ended instantly by a shocked door

Just put on insuls every time you want to open a door :^)

I just burrow through the walls like a rodent.

He can't get away with this
He dared to remove a feature by fabled and legendary coder Kor

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:29 am

Shadowflame909 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:09 am >fulp merged the hulk nerf

how am i going to get the jump on sec as a heretic now???

"""hulk nerf""" which is actually just another fuck you to insuls

insulated mutation is a requirement if you dont want your antag rounds ended instantly by a shocked door

guys, i think johnfulwillard really hates insuls... don’t know why i feel like it though