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The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:09 pm
by Shellton(Mario)
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71285
I think this pr is overall good and its reasoning is sound and would be a W if it didnt nerf everything with chunky fingers. Insuls, abductors (Their baton needed to be fixed) golems etc. I think this is bad for the game and would prefer it if people want to nerf something they nerf it directly instead of impacting a whole bunch of shit.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:23 pm
by massa
nerf batong even more haha make it 3 hits i don't give a fuck fuck that shit
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:54 pm
by Shadowflame909
Shellton(Mario) wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:09 pm
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71285
I think this pr is overall good and its reasoning is sound and would be a W if it didnt nerf everything with chunky fingers. Insuls, abductors (Their baton needed to be fixed) golems etc. I think this is bad for the game and would prefer it if people want to nerf something they nerf it directly instead of impacting a whole bunch of shit.
Facts sec be op
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:41 am
by Turbonerd
I think it being generalised to chunky fingers is a good move. Checking for hulk is a bit snowflakey. This doesn't really impact anyone that should have the batons though, except abductor, but no one had abductors in their mind.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:59 am
by Pandarsenic
I support it because I hate Hulk and this is clearly going to get Hulk nerfed when people notice how strong punching legs is
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:01 am
by Pandarsenic
But also someday people are going to have to address the elephant that is the baton itself and the longer it gets put off the more painful it's going to be
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:50 am
by SkeletalElite
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:01 am
But also someday people are going to have to address the elephant that is the baton itself and the longer it gets put off the more painful it's going to be
The problem IMO isn't batons.
It's that any significant stun = death in a combat scenario. Many people push to resolve this issue by just reducing the power of stun weapons to the point to where they're not much more impactful than straight-up lethal weapons but it's not a good fix.
IMO a better way to fix the "baton problem" is make it so taking any significant damage will purge all stuns/knockdowns and provide brief immunity to them.
Perhaps it could be worked into the wounding system. It would need some changes, of course. The main issues with using the wound system being that armor would make it so you have to take significantly more damage before being unstunned making the armor often worse than nothing. Additionally, low damage weapons can realistically end up critting you before a wound occurs. In order for such a system to work, I think a kind "tier 0" wound would have to be added that occurs anytime you would have been wounded had you not been wearing armor or for lower wound rolls.
Then for a stun to be instant death, at least you have to cuff whoever you stun first. Could also combine with cuff adjustments, such as an increase to cuff time from 3 to 4 seconds. A bonus for sec to keep their cuff time at 3 seconds, either attached to a skill chip or their gloves. A reduction in the availability of cable cuffs, such as increasing the cost of crafting them to 30 coils and making them single use.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:48 am
by Shadowflame909
SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:50 am
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:01 am
But also someday people are going to have to address the elephant that is the baton itself and the longer it gets put off the more painful it's going to be
The problem IMO isn't batons.
It's that any significant stun = death in a combat scenario. Many people push to resolve this issue by just reducing the power of stun weapons to the point to where they're not much more impactful than straight-up lethal weapons but it's not a good fix.
IMO a better way to fix the "baton problem" is make it so taking any significant damage will purge all stuns/knockdowns and provide brief immunity to them.
Perhaps it could be worked into the wounding system.
Definitely agree. If you kill the harm baton but not the stun baton, then stuns will be good for arresting. But in a life or death situation, it shouldn't be all that useful.
Should be added to the in game determination system that temporarily halts bloodloss.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:57 am
by chocolate_bickie
I don't know why we don't remove the hulks ability to hold things.
Make it like the movie where transforming destriys all your clothes and gives you ham hands.
Seems to be the direction we are going anyway.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:08 pm
by massa
chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:57 am
Seems to be the direction we are going anyway.
oh be more dramatic
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:41 pm
by sinfulbliss
Sort of an antag nerf to be honest. Antags need to be able to hack into and out of places quickly while doing crimes, and being able to use batons to defend themselves or stun the seccie trying to arrest them is important.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:56 pm
by Kassori
As much as this PR reads as "ided" from a guy that only plays every month and a half then gets robusted...
There's multiple sets of combat gloves in tactical toolboxes, for free on the map, as well as the occasionally guerilla gloves from SWAT-suited space corpses. If not, its 1 TC for the gloves that still let you fight. There's also just genetics insulated, which is invisible and even the pickiest sec officer can't bug you about.
The reason of "hulk + baton is stupid as shit, try punching people with hulk for once" justifies a hulk interaction with batons, like breaking it, not nerfing anyone wearing insuls from being able to defend themselves non-lethally.
Golems don't need batons, they can just punch you in the face.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:00 pm
by TheSmallBlue
This should be moved to Coding Feedback if it were anywhere.
I get hulk + baton is stupid and it needs to be fixed, but I don't think insuls + baton should be in the cross fire.
I like the idea Skeletal hide, the determination system currently kinda sucks ass.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:24 pm
by blackdav123
I am imagining a world where batons deal 20 or 25 stamina damage and dont have a super long delay so you just fight with them as you would any other 20 damage weapon. The knockdown still makes them a super fuck-you so they outclass most other weapons in melee range but they are more on par with disablers rather than the current twohitting monster they are.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:41 pm
by Kendrickorium
SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:50 am
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:01 am
But also someday people are going to have to address the elephant that is the baton itself and the longer it gets put off the more painful it's going to be
The problem IMO isn't batons.
It's that any significant stun = death in a combat scenario. Many people push to resolve this issue by just reducing the power of stun weapons to the point to where they're not much more impactful than straight-up lethal weapons but it's not a good fix.
IMO a better way to fix the "baton problem" is make it so taking any significant damage will purge all stuns/knockdowns and provide brief immunity to them.
Perhaps it could be worked into the wounding system. It would need some changes, of course. The main issues with using the wound system being that armor would make it so you have to take significantly more damage before being unstunned making the armor often worse than nothing. Additionally, low damage weapons can realistically end up critting you before a wound occurs. In order for such a system to work, I think a kind "tier 0" wound would have to be added that occurs anytime you would have been wounded had you not been wearing armor or for lower wound rolls.
Then for a stun to be instant death, at least you have to cuff whoever you stun first. Could also combine with cuff adjustments, such as an increase to cuff time from 3 to 4 seconds. A bonus for sec to keep their cuff time at 3 seconds, either attached to a skill chip or their gloves. A reduction in the availability of cable cuffs, such as increasing the cost of crafting them to 30 coils and making them single use.
i would say hey coders jot down some notes from this guy but we all know why most coders can't post in here
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:55 pm
by Itseasytosee2me
There are alot of good ideas in this thread, but I think the biggest underlying issue is our stamina system sucks.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:41 am
by massa
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:55 pm
There are alot of good ideas in this thread, but I think the biggest underlying issue is our stamina system sucks.
I think that it is good with some minor flaws that are major detriments, with adjustments/bandages, can be very improved. That guy had great ideas.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:18 am
by Itseasytosee2me
massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:41 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:55 pm
There are alot of good ideas in this thread, but I think the biggest underlying issue is our stamina system sucks.
I think that it is good with some minor flaws that are major detriments, with adjustments/bandages, can be very improved. That guy had great ideas.
Stamina hasn't been touched in any significant way since hive mind, and even that was just a removal of regen in exchange for getting it all back at once.
Our stamina regen chems STILL haven't caught up with it either. The whole system needs an overhaul to be a cohesive mechanic.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:28 pm
by datorangebottle
fuck stun batons.
fuck secoffs who steal insulated gloves(double fuck secoffs who """confiscate""" insulated gloves don't use the shit you confiscate unless it's an emergency)
fuck tiders who kill beepsky roundstart every round.
fuck validhunting engineers.
fuck hulks.
simple as.
Re: The 1 issue I have with the chunky baton nerf
Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:01 pm
by TheSmallBlue
Oh yeah, totally, uh-huh, 100%, yup, mmhm, 100% agree there. Yup. Who wouldn't.