/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32812

This needs context

trying really hard not to quote Monty Python

Archie700 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:21 am viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32812

This needs context

trying really hard not to quote Monty Python

what context, he killed his team after the round was over

Am I missing something? What's wrong with going psycho after the round ends?

Blowing everyone up in a fun role just out of spawn or whatever's lame, but generally you have to set up the Stupid Dumbass Fun ert up before roundend - I guess in this case Riggle probably tried to make something to distract people while he was handling the tickets that caused the round to go into overtime. Shouldn't be a ban though imo - kick em from the server if you have to and just re-do the ERT.

It's annoying when a player does this sort of thing, but dealing with "annoying player behavior" is part of the job :P

Hypothetically, could you ERP round end?

Timonk wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:07 pm Hypothetically, could you ERP round end?

no, because the rules are that you can act as a lone antagonist post round-end. Lone antagonists cannot ERP, therefore you can't erp after the round ends.

If it was just after the round ended and there needed to be a quick cleanup where you've just spawned something fun for everyone to use, I can sort of understand the reason for bwoinking. But it feels like an incredibly harsh take for a ban even then.

If Mazur's story is accurate and it was 10-15 mins after round end, I think that it's massively excessive to ban from any roles at all, let alone for a week, I probably wouldn't have even noted it either.

At that point players are going to just clown around. They're bored. They won't do what you expect because most ordinary IC rules are suspended.

If I had to bwoink Mazur in the future and needed to look up his record to decide on whether to warn/note/ban, I'm not even sure that ban reason would light up any neurons in my brain. I'd look at it, go "that's a silly ban" and disregard it entirely from my decision making process.

And that's probably a pretty good argument in favour of the ban (and any residual note) being overturned.

end round report is up = grief/do whatever you want

that's it, that's literally in the rules.

This is one of the most ridiculous bans in recent memory.

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:49 pm It's annoying when a player does this sort of thing, but dealing with "annoying player behavior" is part of the job :P

But should we really have to? I banned them from two ghost roles for a week because it didn't seem like a harsh ban. Perhaps it was a bit too long for the offense.

What the fuck happened to cause so many tickets to delay round end for that long?

this seems equivalent to friendly fire on ctf after round end

massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:40 pm this seems equivalent to friendly fire on ctf after round end

Why?

Farquaar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:47 pm

massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:40 pm this seems equivalent to friendly fire on ctf after round end

Why?

this seems equivalent to being spawned as a centcomm team/gorillas/whatever for eorg and killing all of the people you just got spawned in as

bc that's what happened

which is friendly fire and douchey but after round end

massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:54 pm

Farquaar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:47 pm

massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:40 pm this seems equivalent to friendly fire on ctf after round end

Why?

this seems equivalent to being spawned as a centcomm team/gorillas/whatever for eorg and killing all of the people you just got spawned in as

bc that's what happened

which is friendly fire and douchey but after round end

The difference is that the entire purpose of a Centcomm team/gorillas/EORG murder squad is to do a funny after the round ends. If someone stops that funny, then it's dickish. The entire purpose of CTF is to have fun in a team game after the round ends. If you ruin that team game, then it's dickish.

How does an ERT compare to either of those examples?

massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:54 pm

Farquaar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:47 pm

massa wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:40 pm this seems equivalent to friendly fire on ctf after round end

Why?

this seems equivalent to being spawned as a centcomm team/gorillas/whatever for eorg and killing all of the people you just got spawned in as

bc that's what happened

which is friendly fire and douchey but after round end

tbf this should probably be a rule exception. If you were specifically spawned in by an admin to fight the crew when they arrive at centcom then deciding to kill your team shouldn't be given a free pass.

This was literally a button press to kill time after EOR, it wasn't some week-long planned event that required a lot of effort and multiple admins overseeing it. Stop tripping.

If death squad/ert is killing each other 8 minutes after round end on centcom then maybe the problem is that they only have each other to kill

Riggle wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:03 pm

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:49 pm It's annoying when a player does this sort of thing, but dealing with "annoying player behavior" is part of the job

But should we really have to? I banned them from two ghost roles for a week because it didn't seem like a harsh ban. Perhaps it was a bit too long for the offense.

You gave them a role to fool around and then banned them for fooling around.

Deadmin

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am words

I think bombing more than half of your team is more than just fooling around, especially right after spawning in

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:57 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am words

I think bombing more than half of your team is more than just fooling around, especially right after spawning in

Then the problem is basically controlling EORG grief with respect to ERTs summoned after the round has already ended.

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:57 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am words

I think bombing more than half of your team is more than just fooling around, especially right after spawning in

You could probably say he did a little trolling

hmmmmmm today i will press the “let players kill people with guns” button

wtf stop killing people with guns no stop guys you are breaking the rules

addendum: i understand how this is leaving the nuance out of the situation, but if you’re really so up the ass about it, you could have just spawned in a new ERT with the objective to kill the bozo. it would have been funny and most importantly not a very stupid decision.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:15 am

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:57 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am words

I think bombing more than half of your team is more than just fooling around, especially right after spawning in

Then the problem is basically controlling EORG grief with respect to ERTs summoned after the round has already ended.

I have no intention of controlling EORG but imagine spending 19 minutes as a ghost after EORG because an admin delayed, getting an ERT roll and immediately being sent back. I understand your concerns but I think the circumstances justify my actions. I'm trying not to be an ass about this but they really were just being a dick.

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:11 pm

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:15 am

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:57 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am words

I think bombing more than half of your team is more than just fooling around, especially right after spawning in

Then the problem is basically controlling EORG grief with respect to ERTs summoned after the round has already ended.

I have no intention of controlling EORG but imagine spending 19 minutes as a ghost after EORG because an admin delayed, getting an ERT roll and immediately being sent back. I understand your concerns but I think the circumstances justify my actions. I'm trying not to be an ass about this but they really were just being a dick.

You aren't obligated as an admin to entertain ghosts, less so when the round proper is over. It's not really your problem, they can just go touch some grass for 20 mins or play something else. They're not entitled for you conjuring up something to keep them entertained, and if you do, you're not entitled for it to go as you planned. If they fuck it up, they've already punished themselves by making it end prematurely.

Stop trying to justify yourself with rule 1 when this was a blatant (miss?) use of rule 0. You decided by yourself that it would benefit everyone to ban these people because what they did annoyed you even if it didn't break any rule (No, they were not being a dick, because rule 1 nullifies itself with the precedents in this case). Be prepared to take the heat for it.

i am unable to understand how people side with riggle and how he himself thinks he is right. I doubt i ever will

exymian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:45 pm i am unable to understand how people side with riggle and how he himself thinks he is right. I doubt i ever will

Because people are allowed to be wrong.
This also qualifies as a Skill Issue.

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:11 pm

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:15 am

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:57 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am words

I think bombing more than half of your team is more than just fooling around, especially right after spawning in

Then the problem is basically controlling EORG grief with respect to ERTs summoned after the round has already ended.

I have no intention of controlling EORG but imagine spending 19 minutes as a ghost after EORG because an admin delayed, getting an ERT roll and immediately being sent back. I understand your concerns but I think the circumstances justify my actions. I'm trying not to be an ass about this but they really were just being a dick.

lol no? That's like saying all EORG violates rule 1 because it takes people out of the round.

Also ctf and mafia exist to give ghosts something to do.

Rule 1 even states eorg is an exception to rule 1.

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:11 pm lol no? That's like saying all EORG violates rule 1 because it takes people out of the round.

Also ctf and mafia exist to give ghosts something to do.

Rule 1 even states eorg is an exception to rule 1.

I agree but this happened in unique circumstances which is why I opted for the ban.

Agux909 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:30 pm You aren't obligated as an admin to entertain ghosts, less so when the round proper is over. It's not really your problem, they can just go touch some grass for 20 mins or play something else. They're not entitled for you conjuring up something to keep them entertained, and if you do, you're not entitled for it to go as you planned. If they fuck it up, they've already punished themselves by making it end prematurely.

Stop trying to justify yourself with rule 1 when this was a blatant (miss?) use of rule 0. You decided by yourself that it would benefit everyone to ban these people because what they did annoyed you even if it didn't break any rule (No, they were not being a dick, because rule 1 nullifies itself with the precedents in this case). Be prepared to take the heat for it.

I'm not required no, but it's a nice thing to do. Someone quitting early by blowing up isn't the same if they take their whole team with them. I don't intend to reverse my decision on the ban, that's up to the headmins.

Riggle wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:09 pm I don't intend to reverse my decision on the ban, that's up to the headmins.

I think Riggle's right. It's one thing if the ghosts did some shit and then they started it. But getting the Funny EORG Role and then instantly being killed by an instant grenade designed to maximize killcount kinda sucks, and the person who did it was doing so with care only for themselves.

It's a bit of a Dick Move.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:47 pm I think Riggle's right. It's one thing if the ghosts did some shit and then they started it. But getting the Funny EORG Role and then instantly being killed by an instant grenade designed to maximize killcount kinda sucks, and the person who did it was doing so with care only for themselves.

It's a bit of a Dick Move.

1. If riggle wanted to suspend eorg they could just have made an announcement. Riggle's inability to communicate dosen't warrant a ban.

2. There are ERTs that don't have WMD's. They could have spawned one of those.

chocolate_bickie wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:27 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:47 pm I think Riggle's right. It's one thing if the ghosts did some shit and then they started it. But getting the Funny EORG Role and then instantly being killed by an instant grenade designed to maximize killcount kinda sucks, and the person who did it was doing so with care only for themselves.

It's a bit of a Dick Move.

1. If riggle wanted to suspend eorg they could just have made an announcement. Riggle's inability to communicate dosen't warrant a ban.

2. There are ERTs that don't have WMD's. They could have spawned one of those.

It's not about suspending EORG, it's about actually letting anyone have any fun in the EORG by not being spawn-killed by someone being a dickhead.

If an admin says nothing and spawns an ERT 10 minutes after roundend and you wanted to EORG, you don't complain when someone EORGs half of your group immediately.

End of Round Grief, literally in the name.

Iunno, I just think you can at least be interesting about it. If you just HHG everyone instantly on spawn the only person who had fun was you, and only for like, 5 seconds.

If things more than 30 seconds, more people get to have fun, and each person gets to have fun for longer.

It's about the Fun Economy.

just remake another team ? are ypu guys serious ? what are these monkey takes ???

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 am It's about the Fun Economy.

If admins start to ban people for EORG it'll be worst for everyone (except for maybe a few manuelites), therefor, I return your argument back to you. It's about the fun economy.

Either way, they didn't break the rules. The rules are pretty black and white when it comes to EORG.

EORG IS fun, it’s became a established right to go insane at the end of a round. Why? It has finality, allows you to have free choice, and because IT’S THE END OF THE ROUND. Seriously, nobody should care at all if someone kills someone at EOR because the round is ending in 60 seconds or more anyway.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but this ban is unfair. You can’t just ban someone for following the rules to the word. If you wanted a EORG ERT that did not go atomic, then you should have picked one that doesn’t have a instakill grenade. This is perhaps, I dare say it, a skill issue.

Tearling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:33 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 am It's about the Fun Economy.

If admins start to ban people for EORG it'll be worst for everyone (except for maybe a few manuelites), therefor, I return your argument back to you. It's about the fun economy.

Either way, they didn't break the rules. The rules are pretty black and white when it comes to EORG.

But you didn't actually contest any of my points? I'm not saying people should be banned for doing EORG. I'm supporting banning someone who denies everyone else the opportunity to do any EORG. The dude was boring as fuck and denied people the chance.

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:45 pm EORG IS fun, it’s became a established right to go insane at the end of a round. Why? It has finality, allows you to have free choice, and because IT’S THE END OF THE ROUND. Seriously, nobody should care at all if someone kills someone at EOR because the round is ending in 60 seconds or more anyway.

Perhaps I’m missing something, but this ban is unfair. You can’t just ban someone for following the rules to the word. If you wanted a EORG ERT that did not go atomic, then you should have picked one that doesn’t have a instakill grenade. This is perhaps, I dare say it, a skill issue.

If I remember correctly, this was a round that had some HEAVY delays, so it wasn't a "the round is ending in 60 seconds or so anyway" case.

definitely needed an announcement to not do so

i blame long round end delays

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:27 am

Tearling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:33 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 am It's about the Fun Economy.

If admins start to ban people for EORG it'll be worst for everyone (except for maybe a few manuelites), therefor, I return your argument back to you. It's about the fun economy.

Either way, they didn't break the rules. The rules are pretty black and white when it comes to EORG.

But you didn't actually contest any of my points? I'm not saying people should be banned for doing EORG. I'm supporting banning someone who denies everyone else the opportunity to do any EORG. The dude was boring as fuck and denied people the chance.

You're treating the EORG as a right, not a privilege.

Other servers don't even have EORG.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:34 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:27 am

Tearling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:33 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:30 am It's about the Fun Economy.

If admins start to ban people for EORG it'll be worst for everyone (except for maybe a few manuelites), therefor, I return your argument back to you. It's about the fun economy.

Either way, they didn't break the rules. The rules are pretty black and white when it comes to EORG.

But you didn't actually contest any of my points? I'm not saying people should be banned for doing EORG. I'm supporting banning someone who denies everyone else the opportunity to do any EORG. The dude was boring as fuck and denied people the chance.

You're treating the EORG as a right, not a privilege.

Other servers don't even have EORG.

You're right, it's a privilege.

And he's had his privilege revoked for being a dick with it. Wacky how that works.

why was this upholded?

OH MY GOD, HE GRIEFED DURING THE END OF ROUND GRIEF- TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE, BAN THIS FUCKER ASAP

Lol, not even a rule 1 issue. Rule 1 literally says what he did was acceptable. Admin used rule 0 and headmins can't even quote the right rule.

thats so funny, its so raven!!!

Rule 0 is primarily "the admins can choose not to enforce the rules if they want, but they're held accountable for it if they do".

Rule 1 is "don't be a dick". It can supercede all other rules, INCLUDING its own precedents. It is the discretionary anti-lameness rule that you go to when no other rule applies, but you feel it is in the best interests of the server to deal with some edge case administratively. Of course again, the admin using it in this way is held accountable for it.

This ruling sparks a lot of "we want the admin team to trust that the headmins will have their backs on controversial but necessary bans", The Headmin Ruling.

I don't think this was controversial but necessary. Given the circumstances at play here, this genuinely wasn't a fair response. When two rules clash, admins should take a pragmatic approach. Because TECHNICALLY it's not against the rules. So understand that and respect that.

This was an edge case that could absolutely have been handled by a verbal warning, or perhaps even a minor note if the admin had a particularly rough and barky stick up their ass that day. But having this as a ban on their record feels lame and serves no useful long-term purpose that any other lesser approach couldn't also achieve.

I know if I see a ban for "killed people during EoRG" I'll basically just ignore it because it's a dumb reason to ban a person. Everyone is bored as shit, killing eachother, just waiting for the round to end and the server to restart.

When I spawn people in with Deathsquad gear to "end of round greet" the shuttle at Centcom and someone gets trigger happy and starts shooting before the shuttle has arrived? I right click delete, revive killed people and leave it at that.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:43 pm Rule 0 is primarily "the admins can choose not to enforce the rules if they want, but they're held accountable for it if they do".

Rule 1 is "don't be a dick". It can supercede all other rules, INCLUDING its own precedents. It is the discretionary anti-lameness rule that you go to when no other rule applies, but you feel it is in the best interests of the server to deal with some edge case administratively. Of course again, the admin using it in this way is held accountable for it.

This ruling sparks a lot of "we want the admin team to trust that the headmins will have their backs on controversial but necessary bans", The Headmin Ruling.

I don't think this was controversial but necessary. Given the circumstances at play here, this genuinely wasn't a fair response. When two rules clash, admins should take a pragmatic approach. Because TECHNICALLY it's not against the rules. So understand that and respect that.

This was an edge case that could absolutely have been handled by a verbal warning, or perhaps even a minor note if the admin had a particularly rough and barky stick up their ass that day. But having this as a ban on their record feels lame and serves no useful long-term purpose that any other lesser approach couldn't also achieve.

I know if I see a ban for "killed people during EoRG" I'll basically just ignore it because it's a dumb reason to ban a person. Everyone is bored as shit, killing eachother, just waiting for the round to end and the server to restart.

When I spawn people in with Deathsquad gear to "end of round greet" the shuttle at Centcom and someone gets trigger happy and starts shooting before the shuttle has arrived? I right click delete, revive killed people and leave it at that.

As a counter to this though, ERTs are explicitly and only ever admin spawned roles - a player is never going to lose access to some mystical non-admin initiated ERT buildup, seeing an admin trying to make some fun for players and acting on the thought of "how do I maximise how quickly I reduce this available fun to zero" is shitty behaviour whether or not the rules of the normal game are suspended, and access to ERTs is neither an inherent right nor anywhere close to a required element to play the game.

I mentioned in my part of the denial for this, and I stand by it that had this been literally any form of server or greater application ban than "wow that was a dick move to pull with an ERT spawned to entertain people, stop taking ERTs if you're gonna act like that" I would've chosen getting it overturned as a hill worth dying on, but it wasn't, it was a back-off on taking an admin event role because wow way to be a dick the moment you've got access to one.

Maybe that shouldn't be the case. Maybe the rules of the game being suspended in EoRG for the normal minute or so that it lasts while the server resets means that the fundamental idea that "maybe you shouldn't be a dick to the people behind the other screens" is also suspended; irrelevant other context (like the normal minute long reset timer where everyone gets at least a chance to participate getting dragged out to nearly ten times its normal duration with most people locked out of the ability to do anything at all), but frankly I'd rather it didn't, so here we are :shrug:

It's part of why I said a verbal warning or minor note would seem sufficient.

I'm not saying this isn't a thing an admin can deal with, but I felt the approach was a big overstepping of how things should have been handled. It's not really about hills and dying, it's about looking at the entire context of everything.

I don't think the player went in with the malicious intent to ruin things for as many people as possible. It was just a moment of IC stupidity during a period when IC rules are NORMALLY suspended and the end of the round is NORMALLY not being held up 9 minutes. It feels like the ban was not placed because the player actually warranted being banned, but for some symbolic "making an example/making a point reason".

All the neurons for caring about the fun of others ends where EoRG begins. The only reason this is an issue is because it's an incident 9 minutes into a delayed round end.

Players will do dumb shit during EoRG. They'll do dumber shit when you drag on EoRG past 9 minutes. That's how it is. This was an IC rule break during a moment when IC rules are generally suspended, when that period had been ongoing for 9 minutes.

This entire situation is easily resolved because there's no concept of OOC or IC at this point. Fix the hole, revive the people, tell the player not to do it again, and get to handling whatever it is you're doing that's causing such a massive delay.

No need for a note unless you're being particularly anal that evening, and definitely no need for bans.

[Edited final comment] Are we going to bring admins up on conduct when the shift ends and they just drop bombs on the shuttle killing everyone instantly before they get to have any fun? In that context, we're holding players to higher standards than ourselves and applying concepts against them that admins regularly break themselves when the shift ends. It's EoRG. Live and let die and let the bodies hit the floor.