/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32976

What a fucking stupid reason to ignore laws. He could quite shrimply ask the AI, or use his tot uplink to get binary key even.

The appeal is also fucking stupid. There is no point in him trying to defend his actions to be right. It's like joining a server, griefing with the excuse of not reading the rules, then making a ban appeal where they try to justify that they are right.

Trying to obey the AI laws when you have no direct way of knowing the AI laws is such a dumb idea that I hope the headmins rule this non binding. Trying to apply silicon policies to humans is a mess. If you were to actually put the asmiov laws themselves as a brainwash sure whatever, but laws work for borgs/AIs because they can pull them up any time and changes pop up in the chat box.

SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:04 am Trying to obey the AI laws when you have no direct way of knowing the AI laws is such a dumb idea that I hope the headmins rule this non binding. Trying to apply silicon policies to humans is a mess. If you were to actually put the asmiov laws themselves as a brainwash sure whatever, but laws work for borgs/AIs because they can pull them up any time and changes pop up in the chat box.

Lmao just ask the AI

SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:04 am Trying to obey the AI laws when you have no direct way of knowing the AI laws is such a dumb idea that I hope the headmins rule this non binding. Trying to apply silicon policies to humans is a mess. If you were to actually put the asmiov laws themselves as a brainwash sure whatever, but laws work for borgs/AIs because they can pull them up any time and changes pop up in the chat box.

Step 1: press T
Step 2: type ";AI state laws"
Step 3: press enter
Step 4: ?
Step 5: Profit

"lmao just ask the AI"

the AI:

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:32 am "lmao just ask the AI"

the AI:

Part of your wrongdoing is making literally 0 attempt to find silicon laws or even act like you're part of the empire.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:32 am "lmao just ask the AI"

the AI:

the borg:

Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:49 am

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:32 am "lmao just ask the AI"

the AI:

the borg:

Okay. Except I wasn’t asked to follow a borg lawset, I was asked to follow the AI’s lawset. Nor should I be expected to hunt down a fuckin borg just to follow my hypno objectives.

You did not make the effort to try to find out if there was an AI, and whether it was asimov. The AI is inactive but you still had to follow its laws, there is no exception to this order.

You also could have asked the borg and made the effort to find out if borg was synced to AI.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:02 pm The AI is inactive but you still had to follow its laws, there is no exception to this order.

Alright I’m gonna card an AI then hypno you to follow its laws. Not gonna tell you though. Good luck!

Rule 1 involving silicons is to assume they're Asiimov until you have reason to suspect otherwise.

If you are, for some reason, unable to go "AI state laws" or "borg, state laws please" over common, pretending to be Asiimov would be a good move until told otherwise.

Y'took an actually really creative and interesting brainwash and just...did nothing with it.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:32 am "lmao just ask the AI"

the AI:

Oh so you knew the AI logged out at round start so you didn't ask?

Can you share the knowledge of how you found that out during the round?

The literal very least that every admin wants to see out of anyone is that they put the tiniest token effort into doing anything.

"Hey AI, state laws?"
>AI says nothing
"Hey [borg], state laws?"

If you are again ignored by the borg, congratulations. You have put in the token effort that every admin can look at and say, "well, they did try," and have a stronger case for yourself.
If you are given an answer, well, you have your answer.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:11 pm

Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:02 pm The AI is inactive but you still had to follow its laws, there is no exception to this order.

Alright I’m gonna card an AI then hypno you to follow its laws. Not gonna tell you though. Good luck!

>don't bother to try to figure out what happened
>asked why didn't you follow laws after the round
>MAYBE THE AI WAS KIDNAPPED DID YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:24 pm The literal very least that every admin wants to see out of anyone is that they put the tiniest token effort into doing anything.

"Hey AI, state laws?"
>AI says nothing
"Hey [borg], state laws?"

If you are again ignored by the borg, congratulations. You have put in the token effort that every admin can look at and say, "well, they did try," and have a stronger case for yourself.
If you are given an answer, well, you have your answer.

Again, the borg’s laws aren’t always the AI’s laws so asking the borg isn't a solution.

And no I didn’t even try to find out because I’m not going to go on some wild goose chase to find out what Lawception the Silicon Empire requires of me. If he didn’t bother telling me after hypnoflashing me, I’m not gonna bother searching for it.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:45 pm

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:24 pm The literal very least that every admin wants to see out of anyone is that they put the tiniest token effort into doing anything.

"Hey AI, state laws?"
>AI says nothing
"Hey [borg], state laws?"

If you are again ignored by the borg, congratulations. You have put in the token effort that every admin can look at and say, "well, they did try," and have a stronger case for yourself.
If you are given an answer, well, you have your answer.

Again, the borg’s laws aren’t always the AI’s laws so asking the borg isn't a solution.

And no I didn’t even try to find out because I’m not going to go on some wild goose chase to find out what Lawception the Silicon Empire requires of me. If he didn’t bother telling me after hypnoflashing me, I’m not gonna bother searching for it.

Brainwashing is above what you want. Maybe you should focus more on roleplaying rather than getting a dopamine rush. Put a good faith effort in acting like your brainwashing is what you believe rather than being an order.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:45 pmAgain, the borg’s laws aren’t always the AI’s laws so asking the borg isn't a solution.

Again, the point is that you tried. You talk to a borg and get a lawset. Turns out it wasn't the one the AI was synced to. You get bwoinked and tell the admin your hypnosis wasn't very clear and you tried your best given the circumstances (the AI seemingly being in and out, borg being the only source of a silicon lawset). Wow! You've covered your ass, given yourself the benefit of the doubt, and put in the token effort that every admin can look at in logs to confirm you made an attempt to play within the constraints of your hypnosis.

And no I didn’t even try to find out because I’m not going to go on some wild goose chase to find out what Lawception the Silicon Empire requires of me. If he didn’t bother telling me after hypnoflashing me, I’m not gonna bother searching for it.

bro just ask on your radio. borgs have common and can talk on it too. it sounds more and more like you were just irritated you got a shitty hypno that didn't let you do whatever you wanted like your previous antag pass let you.

Oh dear Sinful, you really went ahead took a hypno opportunity and twisted it literally to the most unfun outcome possible. Doing mental gymnastics to make it so you didn't have to do anything. So uncreative and unbased.

It's also possible that an AI stating its laws can be omitting laws, so even then you can't be certain youre actually following your laws. Obviously an AI with the law ONLY THE CMO IS HUMAN, KILL ALL NONHUMANS. is not going to state that law


At the very least the note should be ammended to say that AI was literally logged out

and borgs dont show up on the crew manifest and no longer have a PDA I think, you can't even be sure one exists or that it even has the AIs laws.

SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:19 pm It's also possible that an AI stating its laws can be omitting laws, so even then you can't be certain youre actually following your laws. Obviously an AI with the law ONLY THE CMO IS HUMAN, KILL ALL NONHUMANS. is not going to state that law

Not having full information is part of the game, and is not an excuse to ignore brainwash. If the subverted AI states the asimov laws and not the subverted ones, then sinful should act like an asimov silicon because sinful believes he should follow asimov with his limited knowledge.

Any good faith effort to find out at least "some" laws, or at least what the CMO expected of them, would have probably avoided getting this note in my opinion

common sinfulpiss L

Hi. I'm late to the party.

Providing any proof you took reasonable steps to find out what the AI's laws were in any way, shape or form would be an immediate accept on this appeal.

Arguing "I decided to take no steps at all to confirm any silicon lawset at all during this shift, relying on my assumptions and intentionally avoiding any IC information that could dispel my assumptions" is a really fast way to get not just admins but also players calling you out on your bullshit.

You tried to game the system, the system didn't work like that, so swallow your Drink Me bottle and jump back down the rabbit hole, Alice. Your Wonderland awaits.

[Edit] Side note, arguing "I later discovered the AI had disconnected after the shift was over" is also irrelevant. You could rely on that defense if you tried to contact the AI and confirm your laws during the shift. But you didn't know about it at the time, so it's no a defense.

This is the same line of reasoning where you kill someone at random in the hallways just because you can, and they turn out to be a traitor by pure coincidence, and you get daybanned for RDMing. You appeal it and say "I looked at the logs and they were actually an antag when I killed them, so it's Rule 4 valid anyway" - But you didn't know they were an antag at the time, so your ban sticks.

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:12 pm it sounds more and more like you were just irritated you got a shitty hypno that didn't let you do whatever you wanted like your previous antag pass let you.

That’s not what happened at all. I just didn’t really understand what my hypno wanted from me so I didn’t pay attention to it. I figured I’d get commands or something from the CMO/AI when they wanted me to do something.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:03 pmSide note, arguing "I later discovered the AI had disconnected after the shift was over" is also irrelevant. You could rely on that defense if you tried to contact the AI and confirm your laws during the shift. But you didn't know about it at the time, so it's no a defense.

The reason I bring it up is because even if I had asked the AI i wouldn’t have found out. Making an effort to find out what your hypno objectives want you to do isn’t required, as far as I know. You’re required to follow them, not search for what they even are. For this exact sort of reason.

It’s like if you’re a golem slaved to some scientist that has long since left the area. You’re not expected to search for the scientist and find out what he wants you to do, and NO golems would EVER do this. So you just do whatever until they give you a command.

I resent such accusations of trying to “game the system”. I would’ve given no shits about being forced Asimov for a single 20pop round on Kilo. I just don’t think it’s fair to get noted for not following laws you didn’t know and probably couldn’t have even fuckin found out if you tried.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pm ... I just don’t think it’s fair to get noted for not following laws you didn’t know and probably couldn’t have even fuckin found out if you tried.

The lynchpin holding your note up is not that you didn't know and couldn't possibly have known, but that you simply didn't try.

If you tried to ask and didn't get an answer, we wouldn't be here.

But you didn't try. And here we are.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pm ... I just don’t think it’s fair to get noted for not following laws you didn’t know and probably couldn’t have even fuckin found out if you tried.

The lynchpin holding your note up is not that you didn't know and couldn't possibly have known, but that you simply didn't try.

If you tried to ask and didn't get an answer, we wouldn't be here.

But you didn't try. And here we are.

Is the golem forced to try to find out what his master wants him to do even if they’re absent? Do you want him to search the station and do nothing until he can verify his objectives?

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:59 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pm ... I just don’t think it’s fair to get noted for not following laws you didn’t know and probably couldn’t have even fuckin found out if you tried.

The lynchpin holding your note up is not that you didn't know and couldn't possibly have known, but that you simply didn't try.

If you tried to ask and didn't get an answer, we wouldn't be here.

But you didn't try. And here we are.

Is the golem forced to try to find out what his master wants him to do even if they’re absent? Do you want him to search the station and do nothing until he can verify his objectives?

yes

Whoops I can't find my master I guess it's murderboning time because that's clearly the reason why he created me right

i disagree

Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:17 pm Whoops I can't find my master I guess it's murderboning time because that's clearly the reason why he created me right

except i was a traitor by default, the golems aren’t traitors by default. so when you revert to your default in the absence of commands, you have different defaults

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:59 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:54 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pm ... I just don’t think it’s fair to get noted for not following laws you didn’t know and probably couldn’t have even fuckin found out if you tried.

The lynchpin holding your note up is not that you didn't know and couldn't possibly have known, but that you simply didn't try.

If you tried to ask and didn't get an answer, we wouldn't be here.

But you didn't try. And here we are.

Is the golem forced to try to find out what his master wants him to do even if they’re absent? Do you want him to search the station and do nothing until he can verify his objectives?

Silicons are bound by a set of laws that proactively are enforced. Golems do not have laws. They do follow their master’s orders, but in the absence of a master they are still a sentient being. The objective you were given clearly said you are follow the laws, not the AI’s objectives. This can be found by finding a borg who is LINKED to the AI to state their laws, yet, you clearly did not do that.

So, just to make myself clear. Golems aren’t controlled by any law at all, only their master’s orders. I think silicons aren’t at all bound by their AI, but they are bound by proactive laws at most. I don’t think golems should be used as a example for a silicon situation.

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:22 pm I don’t think golems should be used as a example for a silicon situation.

Yeah because it proves me right that it’s clinically insane to expect someone to run around the station searching for someone that can tell them their objectives/“laws.” I’m not doing that, you can tell me after you hypno me if you want. Why am I, a traitor, to assume you, another traitor, have slaved me to an Asimov AI? This is not the default you would assume.

To add onto this, Sinful, there were still a million ways you could have done to verify your laws, yet you just didn’t. You could’ve bought a binary key, you could’ve have found a borg who was linked, or you could’ve done ANYTHING else other than going robust mode.

Also, why murderbone in the first place? That shit is cringe. Super cringe. Why go out of your way to kill every single human when you can do actual gimmick with your antag gamer pass?

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:25 pm You could’ve bought a binary key

Imagine being so cucked that you waste TC on a binary key because you don’t know what the hypno objective is telling you to do.

EpicGamer wrote:Also, why murderbone in the first place?

I wasn’t murderboning I was getting attacked by like 4 people because they saw UNGA BALID after i killed some guy so I killed them too

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:31 pm

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:25 pm You could’ve bought a binary key

Imagine being so cucked that you waste TC on a binary key because you don’t know what the hypno objective is telling you to do.

Rule 4’s Antagonist Objective Priority wrote:Brainwashing/construct orders/Silicon Laws -> Cult -> Revs -> Blood Brother -> Wizard Apprentice/Abductor Teams/Other niche antags -> Nuke Ops -> Traitors

Correct me if I am wrong about this, but I think hypnosis (brainwashing) takes priority over being a traitor. Even if it wasn’t, traitors are still at the bottom of the chart in this flowchart. You had to take your hypnosis objective to heart as your main priority, instead, you focused on being a traitor, something that the flowchart does not encourage.

edit: I think it goes in this order. Again, correct me if I’m wrong.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pmThat’s not what happened at all. I just didn’t really understand what my hypno wanted from me so I didn’t pay attention to it. I figured I’d get commands or something from the CMO/AI when they wanted me to do something.

What does anyone do when they don't know something? They start asking questions and look for an answer. If they don't get an answer, oh well, they've done the least that anyone expects of them. If they get a wrong answer from someone else then that isn't their fault. You were hypno'd. You don't really get an option to ignore it unless it breaks the rules, or like Engi mentioned in the appeal, is just pants on head retarded (which it wasn't, and if you try to fabricate a scenario more complex than needing to type ";AI/Borg, state laws" then you have a brick lodged between your eyes).

All I've seen from you, your appeal, and this thread is you making excuses after the fact and saying, "I did not and I was not going to put any effort into this hypnosis and did my best to completely ignore it." If even a single log existed of you trying on your own to understand your newfound situation, then you've got the benefit of the doubt and there's really nothing for anyone to say.

It is so incredibly lame to see "I just ignored my hypno and made no effort at all to understand it".

Embarrassing.

I’m never going to Sybil if the entire objective for being a traitor is to ignore all gimmicks and kill anyone that moves.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:31 pm

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:25 pm You could’ve bought a binary key

Imagine being so cucked that you waste TC on a binary key because you don’t know what the hypno objective is telling you to do.

You were hypnotised to be part of the silicon empire. If anything, you would want to buy an encryption key because it brings you closer to the silicon empire.

Brainwashing isn't just an order, it is (for the recipient) a belief and perceived reality. You shouldn't try to outsmart or lawyer your hypnosis. You are supposed to play a character that is hypnotised and believe in their brainwashing. The silicon empire is more important than a bit of TC.

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:41 pm I’m never going to Sybil if the entire objective for being a traitor is to ignore all gimmicks and kill anyone that moves.

It's only ever an issue on lowpop. At ~40 players killing everyone is quite challenging.

Of course they're going to valid you if they see you murdering someone for what looks like no reason.

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:39 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pmThat’s not what happened at all. I just didn’t really understand what my hypno wanted from me so I didn’t pay attention to it. I figured I’d get commands or something from the CMO/AI when they wanted me to do something.

What does anyone do when they don't know something? They start asking questions and look for an answer. If they don't get an answer, oh well, they've done the least that anyone expects of them. If they get a wrong answer from someone else then that isn't their fault. You were hypno'd. You don't really get an option to ignore it unless it breaks the rules, or like Engi mentioned in the appeal, is just pants on head retarded (which it wasn't, and if you try to fabricate a scenario more complex than needing to type ";AI/Borg, state laws" then you have a brick lodged between your eyes).

All I've seen from you, your appeal, and this thread is you making excuses after the fact and saying, "I did not and I was not going to put any effort into this hypnosis and did my best to completely ignore it." If even a single log existed of you trying on your own to understand your newfound situation, then you've got the benefit of the doubt and there's really nothing for anyone to say.

It is so incredibly lame to see "I just ignored my hypno and made no effort at all to understand it".

Make the hypno objective self-contained. Tell me what you want in the hypno. You know the giant flashy text that your MIND IS BOUND TO. That’s what I’m going to follow. Hell you can even make it “you are now an asimov borg” and I’ll probably roll with that and pretend to be a deranged lunatic that thinks he’s a borg and runs around saying “HUMAN HARM.”

I’ll do you good if you just tell me what to do. What I won’t do is try to piece together on my own what my commands even are, because that’s a waste of time and I have no guarantee of even finding it out.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:57 pm

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:39 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:02 pmThat’s not what happened at all. I just didn’t really understand what my hypno wanted from me so I didn’t pay attention to it. I figured I’d get commands or something from the CMO/AI when they wanted me to do something.

What does anyone do when they don't know something? They start asking questions and look for an answer. If they don't get an answer, oh well, they've done the least that anyone expects of them. If they get a wrong answer from someone else then that isn't their fault. You were hypno'd. You don't really get an option to ignore it unless it breaks the rules, or like Engi mentioned in the appeal, is just pants on head retarded (which it wasn't, and if you try to fabricate a scenario more complex than needing to type ";AI/Borg, state laws" then you have a brick lodged between your eyes).

All I've seen from you, your appeal, and this thread is you making excuses after the fact and saying, "I did not and I was not going to put any effort into this hypnosis and did my best to completely ignore it." If even a single log existed of you trying on your own to understand your newfound situation, then you've got the benefit of the doubt and there's really nothing for anyone to say.

It is so incredibly lame to see "I just ignored my hypno and made no effort at all to understand it".

I’ll do you good if you just tell me what to do. What I won’t do is try to piece together on my own what my commands even are, because that’s a waste of time and I have no guarantee of even finding it out.

That’s not the problem. Your just looking for a reason not to do shit for your objectives. You don’t even have to run around the station, JUST BUY A KEY. Your using the same argument every time to explain why you didn’t do anything to contribute to your objectives.

You don’t just ignore your laws because “you don’t know what you are”. Be the bigger man and play the game.

Bliss should at least tried to get in contact with the AI, but also I think that hypno objective is stupid as all hell.

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:12 pm Bliss should at least tried to get in contact with the AI, but also I think that hypno objective is stupid as all hell.

I’d say it was stupid too. But even if it was, they should still take reasonable steps to actually consider them.

Disappointing player

CMO tried to have a bit of fun with Hypno by slaving people to AI laws and it ends with sinful completely not bothering to figure out anything about the AI and deciding on his own will that this means he can murder people.

Next time just put a "commit suicide immediately" suggestion instead

Yeah. This is pretty lame on both ends. On one hand, that hypno objective, while creative, sucks to suffer through, especially as an antagonist. On the other, at least make some attempt instead of just ignoring it(even if you use the first sentence to justify some bizarre loophole wherein you kill yourself by attempting to spacewalk without a suit instead of following through on the hypno objective).

dumb brainwash but the way sinful tried his hardest to worm his way into murderboning with it was quite the loopholing extravaganza

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:57 pmI’ll do you good if you just tell me what to do. What I won’t do is try to piece together on my own what my commands even are, because that’s a waste of time and I have no guarantee of even finding it out.

You are now part of the empire.

If your hypnosis read something more like this I would sympathize greatly. Who else is the Empire? Who do I obey? What are our goals? Nothing is explained except that you are a part of something. It is vague, gives no clear instructions beyond being a part of something you have no way of differentiating between other non-imperials. Depending on what's going on around you I could see this being brushed aside, but the nature of the hypnosis itself is not terribly compelling.

You are now part of the Silicon empire.

If your hypnosis read something like this I might be slightly sympathetic. Silicons give you a clue as to who your allies are, but does not expressly state that you are to obey them or defend them. Just that you are a part of them somehow. These are vague statements that really don't have any binding instruction.

You are now part of the silicon empire. you answer to the demands of the AI and follow their lawset.

It clearly commands you to obey the AI and follow their laws. That is your new instruction. The fact that you are a part of some Silicon Empire is just set dressing for what is your new directive. There is nothing vague about this statement. It is a clear and concisely communicated order installed upon you by a hypnosis. If the AI's laws changes or their demands, so too do you. There really isn't any room for wiggling around. Figure out what you're supposed to be doing so you can obey the AI (and their laws), and if you can't get an answer from anybody as to what you are supposed to be doing, then its a wash, you're free to ignore, you can point at the logs where you asked around that "Hey, I tried, I didn't just ignore it because I didn't like my hypnosis."

There is nothing vague about being commanded to obey the AI and their laws. Get your head out of your ass and take the 5 seconds it takes anyone else to ask a couple questions of the silicons over the radio and cover your ass before you decide "I am going to ignore this".