Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:52 pm
by Timberpoes
I have a essay saved. But I'll tl;dr it to:
The ban reason is wrong and/or misleading many levels, and I would not have placed a ban or a note for that shift.
I've visited Terry before because of people ick ocking in OOC about bugs that are impacting many players in the shift.
I'll say this to any admin that "has to" "deal with" scenarios where many players are getting tilted at some real or percieved gameplay bug or issue: Everyone just wants to play and have fun.
I've been there before when bugs are ruining the enjoyment for lots of players at once. De-escalate riots. Have patience. Have understanding. Have empathy. Don't sass the players or be sarcastic. Don't just assume you know better. Ask, discover, find out, question everything. And if in doubt, ask the maintainers for help. Someone may know, and if they don't they'll probably try to find out.
Depending on how this appeal pans out, I may well edit and post my essay response.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:19 pm
by Omega_DarkPotato
this seems a little goofy
firelocks being down is just the icebox experience, but nobody's forced to play the game
its a video game not a job
explaining why the people want a round to restart isn't sabotaging a round :P
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:41 pm
by Thunder11
Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:19 pm
this seems a little goofy
firelocks being down is just the icebox experience, but nobody's forced to play the game
its a video game not a job
explaining why the people want a round to restart isn't sabotaging a round
It wasn’t even icebox it was delta, I have no idea what was happening but the firelocks were all down from roundstart and closed again whenever they were opened
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:46 pm
by kieth4
Terry hackers hacking manuel to prove their superiority
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:34 am
by datorangebottle
This is perhaps the worst ban from vekter thus far.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:45 am
by Shellton(Mario)
Map broken > people complain > people vote to restart > vote goes through but restart not done > People protest choice not to restart server by suiciding in chapel. Sounds good makes senses to me. And frankly this just sounds fucking funny
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:54 am
by Qbmax32
seems like a lame ban if the round was bugged as OP said
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:11 am
by Timberpoes
Okay. The response is enough that I'm posting the amended essay version.
Suiciding when you see other people suicide isn't against the rules.
Don't get me wrong. Heads of Staff shouldn't be suiciding for dumb/poor reasons and should ahelp first if they want to leave the shift. That wasn't in the ban reason. It probably should have been, because it's about the only act I'd take issue with out of all the other stuff that went down. And when it comes to shifts where the code spontaneously combusts, I am far beyond caring about the odd suicide as a result.
But what he did was not sabotaging the round. Teaching other players how to suicide is not sabotaging the round.
This is his entire set of IC interaction that shift, plus the person he taught how to suicide. They wanted to suicide of their own volition, before meeting JupiterJaeden. This is not sabotaging the shift.
[2023-01-20 20:01:20.421] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) Client JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) has taken ownership of mob Jeff Gaiman(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Head of Security's Office (222,149,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:13.977] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "what" (Brig Control (203,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:16.861] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "I'm busy" (Brig Control (205,128,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:38.122] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,132,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:49.412] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:49.577] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:53.242] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:53.399] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:53.525] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:54.820] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "GUH" (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:59.077] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (190,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:03:59.222] GAME: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (190,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:01.654] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "SHIT BROKE" (Starboard Primary Hallway (190,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:13.269] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "If these firelocks don't get fixed, I am going to commit suicide" (Brig (200,132,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:23.991] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Engineering Lobby (103,135,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:25.671] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "OI" (Security Office (207,149,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:26.389] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "HEY" (Security Office (207,149,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:35.920] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "YOU ATE 4??" (Security Office (207,151,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:46.554] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Engineering Lobby (104,137,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:56.469] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Port Primary Hallway (110,132,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:05.331] EMOTE: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) points at Randy Highlands (Security Office (208,147,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:09.079] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "You disgust me" (Security Office (208,147,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:11.145] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "why firelocks on everywhere" (Port Primary Hallway (131,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:12.385] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Port Primary Hallway (131,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:19.805] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "BASTARD" (Security Office (205,148,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:20.484] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "i hate it" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,127,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:39.850] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "i go kill myself in armoury i guess" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,127,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:58.651] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,138,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:26.237] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Fore Central Primary Hallway (171,148,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:33.254] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Fore Central Primary Hallway (169,135,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:39.219] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) reset a fire alarm. (Starboard Primary Hallway (189,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:46.183] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "can i get an gun" (Brig (201,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:51.751] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "what for" (Security Locker Room (205,124,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:54.268] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "suicide" (Security Locker Room (203,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:56.438] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "oh" (Security Locker Room (205,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:56.499] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "this is an shithole" (Security Locker Room (203,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:56.936] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "yes" (Security Locker Room (205,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:59.211] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "my poor earsd" (Security Locker Room (203,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:05.980] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "here" (Armory (208,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:06.926] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "use this" (Armory (208,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:11.010] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "how" (Armory (209,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:11.938] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "i do it" (Armory (209,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:18.758] SAY: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) "im too stupid to point the gun at my head and click" (Armory (209,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:20.068] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "in the chat bar at the bottom right of your screen" (Armory (209,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:21.942] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "type suicide" (Armory (209,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:26.957] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "not like talking" (Armory (209,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:31.618] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "it's a different little" (Armory (209,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:32.641] EMOTE: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Armory (209,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:32.649] ACCESS: Mob Login: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[2023-01-20 20:07:32.664] GAME: Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) Client Gamer7338/(Jacob Edwards) has taken ownership of mob Jacob Edwards(/mob/dead/observer) (Armory (209,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:32.822] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "there ya go" (Armory (209,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:42.517] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "One of my secoffs has already committed suicide" (Armory (209,130,2))
[2023-01-20 20:07:55.102] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "Yea I will come slippo" (Brig (200,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:08:16.515] SAY: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "I'm going for egun suicide" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (157,148,2))
[2023-01-20 20:08:32.492] EMOTE: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Fore Central Primary Hallway (133,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:08:32.500] ACCESS: Mob Login: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
The quoted IC in OOC is the player trying to explain to Vekter the reason for the restart vote some 12 minutes before the ban was placed. If there was an issue with that being such a bad case of IC in OOC that it warranted a half day ban, I can't see it. I've gone on Terry before and talked bugs through in OOC with players to troubleshoot/identify/fix, especially bugs that are impacting multiple players at once.
Look at the substantive OOC logs from the first mention of the map breaking to Vekter explaining you just need to click the fire alarm 4head:
[2023-01-20 20:03:59.492] OOC: T3hSurge/(Slippo) "map broke" (Theater (144,158,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:00.821] OOC: Walmartian/(Ophiuchus ER) "restart this hell" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (169,142,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:18.542] OOC: ThatCoolGuyDevin/(Randy Highlands) "someone added vore and this is how god repays us in sin" (Security Office (206,151,2))
[2023-01-20 20:04:44.792] ACCESS: Login: Vekter from -censored(ip/cid)- || BYOND v514.1585
[2023-01-20 20:04:46.771] ACCESS: Mob Login: Vekter/(Vekter) was assigned to a /mob/dead/new_player
[2023-01-20 20:04:47.778] GAME: Vekter/(Vekter) Client Vekter/(Vekter) has taken ownership of mob Vekter(/mob/dead/new_player) (start area (8,248,1))
[2023-01-20 20:05:02.898] ADMIN: Vekter/(Vekter) checked the individual player panel for DevinXoptoh/(Chip Shafer) while in game.
[2023-01-20 20:05:30.109] OOC: Not megatron/(Nancy Druid) "Bruh what" (Research Division (114,98,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:32.703] OOC: ThatCoolGuyDevin/(Randy Highlands) "NOOOOO" (Brig (200,127,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:36.307] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "YES" (Security Locker Room (204,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:37.668] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "DO IT" (Security Locker Room (204,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:38.586] OOC: DemoCrack/(Grenadier-357) "MUH ROLL" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:41.390] OOC: T3hSurge/(Slippo) "did we just get veto'd" (Theater (148,158,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:41.612] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "shit is broke" (Security Locker Room (204,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:43.601] OOC: Thunder12345/(Jazmin Malcovich) "What a restart vote actually passed" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (169,126,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:44.809] OOC: Totalzombi/(Henry Rathens) "admemes restart!" (Lavaland Wastes (165,52,5))
[2023-01-20 20:05:48.236] OOC: Vekter/(Vekter) "that's not what restart votes are for" (start area (8,248,1))
[2023-01-20 20:05:51.767] OOC: T3hSurge/(Slippo) "RIOT" (Theater (148,158,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:55.415] OOC: Ggefg/(Erebus Heretak) "RIOT" (Engineering Lobby (105,137,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:57.347] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "i started the vote" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,128,2))
[2023-01-20 20:05:58.855] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "not an admin" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,128,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:00.281] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "get pranked" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,128,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:00.665] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "RESTART THE DAMN SERVER, SHIT IS BROKE" (Security Locker Room (204,125,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:10.103] OOC: Walmartian/(Ophiuchus ER) "restart the round :(" (Fore Maintenance (167,197,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:14.601] OOC: T3hSurge/(Slippo) "I'LL DO IT, I'LL ICK IN THE OCK!" (Theater (148,158,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:17.904] OOC: ThatCoolGuyDevin/(Randy Highlands) "wow, this is the true icebox experience!" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (170,113,2))
[2023-01-20 20:06:43.753] OOC: PeterMX/(Deaden Stumm) "any ddosers?" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:36.363] OOC: Vekter/(Pleiades IX) "Quit with the fucking restart vote" (Space (140,143,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:40.730] OOC: Walmartian/(Ophiuchus ER) "why" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:45.445] OOC: Vekter/(Pleiades IX) "Zero reason to restart 10 minutes into the round because you didn't get fucking antag" (Space (140,143,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:47.115] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "why" (Lavaland Wastes (155,74,5))
[2023-01-20 20:09:51.735] OOC: DevinXoptoh/(Chip Shafer) "there is a reason to restart?" (Bridge (152,140,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:52.212] OOC: Tapubulu/(Alexander Wolff) "we got a reason" (Starboard Quarter Solar Array (220,77,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:52.683] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "thats not the reason" (Lavaland Wastes (155,74,5))
[2023-01-20 20:09:55.651] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "firelock hell is why" (Lavaland Wastes (155,74,5))
[2023-01-20 20:09:55.958] OOC: Walmartian/(Ophiuchus ER) "its because all the firelocks are broken" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (135,129,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:57.899] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "Vekter we are restarting because the firelocks are broken as fuck" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:09:59.463] OOC: T3hSurge/(Slippo) "we're all voting against a broken station" (Engineering Lobby (102,136,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:00.754] OOC: DevinXoptoh/(Chip Shafer) "theres literally firelocks going off for no reason" (Bridge (152,140,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:05.148] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "it has nothing to do witha ntag rolling you dipshit" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:10.324] OOC: Vekter/(Pleiades IX) "CLICK THE FUCKING FIRE ALARM" (Space (140,143,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:10.451] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "all the firelocks on station are permenantly activated" (Genetics Lab (138,102,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:14.267] OOC: Not megatron/(Nancy Druid) "That doesn't work b" (Research Division (125,85,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:15.497] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "VEKTER WE TRIEDD" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:16.676] OOC: DevinXoptoh/(Chip Shafer) "it dxoesnt work vekter" (Bridge (149,142,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:16.783] OOC: Tapubulu/(Alexander Wolff) "IT DOESNT WORK YOU CLOWN" (Starboard Quarter Solar Array (213,78,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:17.386] OOC: Ggefg/(Erebus Heretak) "IT DOESNT WORK VEKTER" (Experimentation Lab (118,102,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:17.575] OOC: JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "IT IS BROKEN" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,131,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:18.072] OOC: DevinXoptoh/(Chip Shafer) "we tried." (Bridge (149,142,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:20.520] OOC: DevinXoptoh/(Chip Shafer) "hence the ahelp." (Bridge (149,142,2))
[2023-01-20 20:10:36.180] OOC: C12a23b02/(Irene Keener) "we did vetker, its permenant" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,129,2))
Does this looks more like Vekter sassing the players, or more like the players harassing Vekter? If you don't want players to "be beligerent" to admins, then a good first step is the admins not sassing the players when a restart vote passes but gets cucked by an admin that wasn't even out of the lobby at the time the vote passed.
And I'm railing against this ban because the exact same thing happened to me in that stupid fucking round Chesh linked at the start of the appeal. I walked into the chapel, saw everyone suiciding, picked up an O2 tank off the ground and suicided as well. Wordlessly. For that I got myself a 3 day ban, reduced to 1 day on appeal.
That ban was bullshit, that appeal was bullshit, that complaint was bullshit. I still stand by that 2+ years later. Nobody on the admin team listened to me, and the headmins of that term shoved their collective heads up their collective asses like ostriches striking off another checkmark on their F-list profile.
Just banning people like machines, lacking any shred of empathy, understanding or anything. Fuck rigidly enforcing a puritanical view of the rules. Solve the damn problem for the players. They'll be singing your Goddamn praises, like the last time I went to visit Terry and tgui broke. Everyone was talking about it in OOC. How many fucks did I give? Zero. I fixed the problem, and wished the players an enjoyable rest of their shift.
[2022-12-30 15:25:04.128] ACCESS: Mob Login: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) was assigned to a /mob/dead/new_player
[2022-12-30 15:25:05.163] GAME: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) Client Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) has taken ownership of mob Timberpoes(/mob/dead/new_player) (start area (8,248,1))
[2022-12-30 15:25:14.984] ADMIN: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) disabled the CDN asset transport
[2022-12-30 15:25:31.378] OOC: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) "I tried pushing a button. Does anything tgui work now?" (start area (8,248,1))
[2022-12-30 15:26:11.641] OOC: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) "No problem. If things like this happen again, slap a supportmin ping on the help channel. Almost every supportmin knows which button to push when tgui breaks." (start area (8,248,1))
[2022-12-30 15:27:12.729] OOC: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) "Right, back to work for me. The UK government just paid me £2 to fix this problem while I'm on the clock." (start area (8,248,1))
[2022-12-30 15:27:21.488] OOC: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes) "Have fun, gamers." (start area (8,248,1))
[2022-12-30 15:27:37.310] ACCESS: Logout: Timberpoes/(Timberpoes)
[2022-12-30 15:27:37.311] GAME: Timberpoes[DC]/(Timberpoes) Timberpoes[DC]/(Timberpoes) is no longer owning mob Timberpoes(/mob/dead/new_player) (start area (8,248,1))
When shit breaks or doesn't work as expected or is annoying and/or obnoxious, sometimes players do dumb shit. I've been there. I understand it. This incident wouldn't even register as a tiny little blip on my admin radar.
I'd be gathering details for an issue report, and to see if I can leverage admin tools to fix it. If I got things in a better, more playable state I'd offer to revive any suiciders so they can participate in the shift. And if I couldn't fix it? Well, that's a skill issue on my part. I'd just delete every single firelock. Problem solved.
Worst case scenario where I'm too busy myself, I'd ping maintainers and see if anyone was free to help troubleshoot it or if it was a known issue. I'd de-escalate the situation so everything can get back to normal. Because that's what I'd want if the positions were reversed.
The admin team doesn't serve the players, but we do all work together to keep the game working. When code breaks and the admin team freaks out and starts spitting feathers, the players will spit daggers back. Just fucking work with the players to fix whatever's fucked up or give them what they voted for, a restart. Don't give them precisely fuck all by telling them to get bent with their restart vote, also not fixing the problem and condescendingly telling them how wrong they are, then banning anyone that protests.
God it still rustles my jimmies two years later.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:12 am
by Vekter
datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:34 am
This is perhaps the worst ban from vekter thus far.
It's not my ban, you troglodyte.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:13 am
by Timberpoes
I am once again triggered.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:18 am
by chocolate_bickie
You know it's gonna be a good appeal when an experienced admin bans another experienced admin.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:26 am
by Turbonerd
Did anyone ahelp about it? Why did the admin make such an uninformed comment in OOC?
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:27 am
by MooCow12
I hope it just devolves into back and forth "no you ruined the round" its already outlandish enough that the admin said the players suiciding ruined the round.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:45 am
by Striders13
You really shouldn't assume players don't have a good reason to restart when restart vote passes.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:26 am
by Bepis
it feels like both admins just didn't want to lose the argument and hit buttons
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:30 am
by CMDR_Gungnir
Unironically one of the worst bans I've ever seen, and one that's worth deadminning both of them over.
"AS A HEAD OF STAFF YOU HAVE A DUTY AND AN IMPACT ON THE ROUND" yeah and the round was literally fucking unplayable. "PEOPLE SAW YOU SUICIDE AND COPIED YOU SO YOU INFLUENCED THE ROUND THAT'S WHY YOU SABOTAGED IT" motherfucker the round was literally unplayable, there WAS NO ROUND to sabotage, because NOBODY WAS GOING TO BE PLAYING THE GAME ANYWAY.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:39 am
by NecromancerAnne
I hate that the first mass suicide bans were a thing and an established precedent, and still being used here. It is so fundamentally different to what precedent justified those original bans (disliking something doesn't give you the right to early abort the round, like singulo'ing the engine as a nonantag because its tram), because it neither ended the round as a whole nor affected directly any players who would choose to remain in the round. You simply had a large number exit of their own accord from circumstances they do not wish to endure. If they just logged off instead, equally removing them from the round, it wouldn't have resulted in anything. Only the token gesture of a mass suicide is the distinguishing difference, and that is it. These are meaningless distinctions, and the punishments dealt from an emotional response focused on finding punishment rather than rationalizing that behavior for what it was. Just exiting the round in dramatic flare. The exit would have happened regardless.
That precedent should never be used as justification. And annoying bugged game states should be fully acceptable reasoning to exit the round. Any admins upholding this precedent should stop and think about why this is happening and whether these players would have stuck around regardless if they hadn't suicided. Almost always, the answer is no, so what is accomplished by punishing them? What exactly is the message you are conveying? Any heads may have wanted to ahelp first, but I think it should have been fine for them to simply ssd/ghost.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:41 am
by Misdoubtful
Rounds like these really make me question things.
Like considering what damage situations like these actually cause and what the impact of bans or notes would actually provide for then future. What value or change in behavior would be coming from notes/bans for things like these?
Is it better to sweep failed rounds like these under the rug and move on to the next?
Is it worth punishing people for making the choice not to play the game, even in mass? Is there a lesson to be learned at a DM level about why people are doing said thing? Something that could improve everyone's experience for the next round(s)?
What is the real problem in these cases? The real root cause of things? Is it people suiciding, a buggy/unenjoyable round creating an environment people do not want to engage in, something else?
Are people not going to reasonably be upset and vent when the game is just not working as it is supposed to be? Does that not mean they may vent in what could be considered not the best manner?
Just food for thought I'm not really interested in the ban specifically or who said what or who did what or whatever stupid semantics people are going to argue about it, it just provides for good higher level DM considerations and discussion material on the role of creating and curating experiences.
Striders13 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:45 am
You really shouldn't assume players don't have a good reason to restart when restart vote passes.
I'd like to believe we are all here to ease the issues making rounds unfun, toss some interesting and unique wrenches in things to provide the unexpected and challenging, keep our ears to the community and the round, etc. Routine DM nonsense to make things memorable, in a good way.
I've always opted for well, what Timberpoes said:
Just banning people like machines, lacking any shred of empathy, understanding or anything. Fuck rigidly enforcing a puritanical view of the rules. Solve the damn problem for the players. They'll be singing your Goddamn praises, like the last time I went to visit Terry and tgui broke. Everyone was talking about it in OOC. How many fucks did I give? Zero. I fixed the problem, and wished the players an enjoyable rest of their shift.
Or maybe reconsider your priorities (reader) if you are not already thinking this way. Solve the problems and get everyone back to the fun as fast as possible, or really at the end of the day just try to remember that this is just a game.
Instead of doing something that could be seen by some as this:
Don't give them precisely fuck all by telling them to get bent with their restart vote, also not fixing the problem and condescendingly telling them how wrong they are, then banning anyone that protests.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:34 am
This is perhaps the worst ban from vekter thus far.
It's not my ban, you troglodyte.
If you don't peanut post I won't get confused, skill issue.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:50 am
by NecromancerAnne
Separate post to reiterate; please think about what you are conveying to players when you choose to apply a punishment. What went wrong, why was it bad? If the reasoning is only a direct rules/precedent quote, reassess why the rule exists and why that previous ban was applied. What was trying to be accomplished and conveyed to players about which behaviours were unacceptable and why.
Usually, critically thinking about the justifications of why these established precedents exist is fundamental for understanding how it is applicable in a given future situation, while also giving you an opportunity to re-evaluate past judgements and choose to ignore them and argue against its use if the reasoning is flawed or misguided. Rules and precedent are not sacrosanct, they're tools to help you think critically towards finding a solution to the given problem and rationalize the actions you are taking because you believe it to be conducive to improved olayer behavior and an overall healthier game state.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:50 am
by NoxVS
I can’t believe Vektor would do such a thing
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:54 am
by Qbmax32
Striders13 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:45 am
You really shouldn't assume players don't have a good reason to restart when restart vote passes.
also this, i feel like ive seen a restart vote pass less then a handful of times in all the years i've played this game. if a restart vote passes i feel like you should maybe do a little looking into why before assuming its just the server collectively deciding to re-roll antag
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:36 am
by toemas
why did vektar do this
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:37 am
by toemas
Also, pathetic ban. Deadmin
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:43 am
by Timberpoes
I totally echo sentiments like "If the player had just logged off instead of suiciding, would they have been banned/noted?"
As an admin, if I see a note like "Participated in mass suicide" I internally substitute it with "Participated in mass deciding not to play the shift". And that's really not against the rules.
To me, the circumstances are so exceptional (beeg code issue) that the note itself is something I'd dismiss entirely when looking at the player's history. It's just never, ever going to be a relevant note to me as an admin.
And that's my personal line for a note being unnecessary.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:50 am
by Super Aggro Crag
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:43 am
I totally echo sentiments like "If the player had just logged off instead of suiciding, would they have been banned/noted?"
As an admin, if I see a note like "Participated in mass suicide" I internally substitute it with "Participated in mass deciding not to play the shift". And that's really not against the rules.
To me, the circumstances are so exceptional (beeg code issue) that the note itself is something I'd dismiss entirely when looking at the player's history. It's just never, ever going to be a relevant note to me as an admin.
And that's my personal line for a note being unnecessary.
if the note is irrelevant and unnecessary then there should be no problem with removing it so that less experienced jannies won't look at it and think "hm maybe i should use this as an excuse to permaban someone", as that is the purpose of notes
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:41 am
by SkeletalElite
The bug in question with the firelocks has had a issue on github open for 3 weeks and when it happened on sybil trexter was unable to fix and just deleted literally every firelock instead. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/72405
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:40 am
by cybersaber101
I wonder how this would have went down in an alternate universe where we have the old firelock BEEEP BEEEEP BEEEP sound instead.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:12 am
by TheLoLSwat
manuels best adminwork
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:35 am
by BONERMASTER
Funny to me is that Vekter had no hand in the ban itself, but his repulsive, alien response to something as trivial as restarting the game, has him be the centerpiece of this ban anyway.
Anyone else find this funny? It's pretty funny to me.
With entertained regards
-BONERMASTER
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:41 pm
by Bawhoppennn
I can see that Cheshify is gunning for the most hated admin award
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:42 pm
by Jackraxxus
Hey guys which Starsector faction is your favourite? Personally I kinda like the hegemony atm. Low tech is dogshit but their theme goes hard and the hegemon is kinda based lowkey though. Supreme Gas-Station Manager Philip Andrada PFPs need not apply.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:58 pm
by iwishforducks
i hope headmins look at the bans even if they were resolved. it’s just always sad to see our good players give into horrible notes because they don’t think they have a fighting chance against the admins. also it’s incredibly disappointing to see cheshify dig their heels in on the appeals. i personally never understood why we gave out bans for mass suicides
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:59 pm
by Mice World
Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:42 pm
Hey guys which Starsector faction is your favourite? Personally I kinda like the hegemony atm. Low tech is dogshit but their theme goes hard and the hegemon is kinda based lowkey though. Supreme Gas-Station Manager Philip Andrada PFPs need not apply.
Fuck starsector, what S.T.A.L.K.E.R. faction is your favorite and why is it not Duty?
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:22 pm
by TheLoLSwat
Cheshify and Vekter when its time to do any sort of admin legwork (they can quit anytime or keep OOC muted instead of arguing with players and then banning when the players argue back)
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:23 pm
by iwishforducks
TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:22 pm
Cheshify and Vekter when its time to do any sort of admin legwork (they can quit anytime or keep OOC muted instead of arguing with players and then banning when the players argue back)
this is the craziest post ive read this year
edit: i get it now nvm. not a crazy post. misread
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:24 pm
by wesoda25
Everyone makes mistakes so I won’t join the hate train, but I think vekter and chesh should really just take a step back, realize they fucked up, apologize and remove all notes/everything. Shoutout timber btw keep it going
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:48 pm
by RedBaronFlyer
Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:42 pm
Hey guys which Starsector faction is your favourite? Personally I kinda like the hegemony atm. Low tech is dogshit but their theme goes hard and the hegemon is kinda based lowkey though. Supreme Gas-Station Manager Philip Andrada PFPs need not apply.
I like the Hegemony because of the XIV Battlegroup, black and orange is a good color theme + heavy armor and dakka are my favorite combination.
Diktat are alright. They're really kinda eh without mods.
Luddic Church is also alright. They are also super eh without mods. Without mods they're just hegemony but with a bit more low tech.
Persean League are like the greek city state alliance Vs. Persia, they'll fall into bickering the moment the Hegemony is no longer a threat. They also follow a "whatever we can use is what our fleet composition is" which annoys me.
Pathers are target practice. (though are funny/annoying to fight when you have the mod that gives them IED fuel tankers)
Pirates are target practice. (Please modders/Alex, figure out if you want pirates to be a threat or just be a joke with pirate versions of ships that just work worse)
Independents are chill.
Tri-Tachyon is cringe, AI is cringe. Non-large slot energy weapons are horrid. High Tech ships last 30 seconds in battle before their battle readiness starts dipping. They use ship systems as a crutch. The Paragon is a crutch, the XIV Onslaught is the superior and more robust capital ship, I'd much rather have two XIV Onslaughts for the same deployment costs of deploying a single Paragon. High-Tech worst tech.
wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:24 pm
Everyone makes mistakes so I won’t join the hate train, but I think vekter and chesh should really just take a step back, realize they fucked up, apologize and remove all notes/everything. Shoutout timber btw keep it going
I mean there's making a mistake and then there's making the same mistake within 48 hours for the exact same reason.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:34 pm
by Jackraxxus
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:48 pm
Tri-Tachyon is cringe, AI is cringe. Non-large slot energy weapons are horrid. High Tech ships last 30 seconds in battle before their battle readiness starts dipping. They use ship systems as a crutch. The Paragon is a crutch, the XIV Onslaught is the superior and more robust capital ship, I'd much rather have two XIV Onslaughts for the same deployment costs of deploying a single Paragon. High-Tech worst tech.
Baffling take, there's a lot to unpack here.
1. AI are based, High Hegemon Thog is just mad they won't date him because he's 5'11". Also AI are 2nd best science-fiction genre trope so they'll make for good storytelling 15 or so years down the line.
2. High tech is based clearly (You) have not spammed infinity phase ships. If we're gonna be talking about deployment costs you gotta check out high-tech phase ships. Also the apogee exists.
3. All the base game capital ships are dogwater but the Onslaught is easily the worst. It feels like you're flying a brick, someone could sneeze at its shields and cause it to overload, and to top it all off its inbuilt thermal cannons are worse than any medium energy weapon while contributing significantly to its flux issues. I'd take an Aurora over a XIV Onslaught day of the week.
4. So long as the abomination that is the Legion exists high tech cannot be worst tech. Astral simply too stronk.
5. Tri-tach's market - friendly theme is a straight bop fr how could you call them cringe
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:23 pm
by Super Aggro Crag
wesoda25 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:24 pm
Everyone makes mistakes so I won’t join the hate train, but I think vekter and chesh should really just take a step back, realize they fucked up, apologize and remove all notes/everything. Shoutout timber btw keep it going
"everyone makes mistakes so we should forgive them entirely despite them constantly making the same mistakes and refusing to ever admit wrongdoing, instead filling threads with constant circular logic and rules-lawyering until people just give up arguing with them"
damn imagine how our fucking ban list would look if this thought process applied to people who were appealing bans instead of the janitors who consistently make shitty ones
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:30 pm
by wesoda25
You’re responding to your own post, not mine. I’m sure anyone facing this type and amount of criticism would feel awful regardless of whether or not it’s deserved. I don’t see the benefit of adding another voice to the cry when others have already stated my thoughts better than I could. At this point I don’t think there’s anything more to be said other than the long and short of it that they messed up, should acknowledge this and take whatever steps they can to remedy it.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:30 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
Gotta say its pretty cringe the recent trend of admins realising their ban was hot garbage and negotiating the ban reason down to "Did nothing wrong but admits he was in the wrong because I have the power to reject him entirely if he doesnt and subject him to yet more tedious online rules-lawyering by a headmin appeal with no guarantee of an equally fair outcome".
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:48 pm
by kayozz
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:58 pm
i hope headmins look at the bans even if they were resolved. it’s just always sad to see our good players give into horrible notes because they don’t think they have a fighting chance against the admins. also it’s incredibly disappointing to see cheshify dig their heels in on the appeals. i personally never understood why we gave out bans for mass suicides
The 5D chess move is to appeal the note after the ban gets lowered to a note.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:17 pm
by TheLoLSwat
Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:30 pm
Gotta say its pretty cringe the recent trend of admins realising their ban was hot garbage and negotiating the ban reason down to "Did nothing wrong but admits he was in the wrong because I have the power to reject him entirely if he doesnt and subject him to yet more tedious online rules-lawyering by a headmin appeal with no guarantee of an equally fair outcome".
ive noticed this too. admins will backpedal on the worst administrative decision ever seen in the 21st century by going "ok how about i lift your 10 day ban for slipping sec and just leave you with a note :)" and littletimmy123 who wants to play spessmans again will gobble it up and give praise for "benevolence" without even so much as an apology for overreacting.
If admitting fault and apologizing would make you lose credibility/respect, you didnt have any in the first place
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:40 pm
by Indie-ana Jones
Bad bans/notes with flimsy reasoning. At some point you have to realize we have rules in order to make the game fun. Their choice to try and get the round restarted and their choice to not play the broken round was ultimately a means to get out of a situation that was making the round unfun, and I'd argue trying to get the round restarted was in the better interest of the playerbase than the bans that came afterwards.
Remove the notes, these players didn't do anything wrong.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:52 pm
by kayozz
It's like running a game of DnD but the GM forgets to turn up and there's no dice and the pencils are broken so the players who can't proceed on their adventure decide to abandon the game in a fun and creative way. But then the GM later turns up, but instead of bringing the dice and new pencils, he just flips out and bans two of the players at random. Then unbans them but warns them not to do it again.
Exactly like that.
Re: Manuel Chapel Suicide Incident 2 Peanut (HoPline edition)
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:54 pm
by kayozz
It's like trying to launch a rocket but NASA forgets to put any fuel in the rocket, so when the pilot decides to climb out of the rocket, NASA decides to sack the pilot. Then rehires him/her but tells them not to do it again.
Exactly like this, but exactly like my other example too.
