/tg/Station 13

Why can he even post? A blacklist is a blacklist. His post should get deleted, he should get banned, and our posts should get deleted for confirming the presence of his existence initiated by him. Fuck off Jackrip.

On one hand, we'd let in someone who has shown themselves to be willing to attack someones real life reputation over video games.
On the other hand, we'd get one (1) more player.
I think i can somewhat sense which way the scales are tilting on this one

There are people on the other side of the computer. I own the choice to approve the appeal, if only because the content appeared genuine and sincere. Maybe I'm being a sucka, but it costs me nothing to give the benefit of the doubt. I can reverse that decision with a few clicks if I was wrong to do so.

Some blacklists have been removed in the past. People change. Times change. It's all really up to MSO in first instance, and if MSO grants mercy then Coco in the second instance.

I've thought a lot about how I behaved and why I did it. I think I was acting out of pure ego, addiction, and toxicity. This game had become such an obsession for me that I viewed people I had problems with in game as real life enemies, dehumanizing them and attacking the person behind the screen. This went beyond the person I doxxed, but to coders I disagreed with, other players, and admins. My own distorted egotistical view made me believe I was in the right, and anyone who had gone against me didn't deserve respect or decency. My perspective was toxic, pathetic, and harmful. Words can't express my guilt and regret for acting like this towards all of you, I ruined many friendships I had been building for years, and left a disgusting mark on a wonderful community.

This appeal is staggeringly honest. As someone who has been pretty down bad with ss13/internet addiction I can relate to a lot of the symptoms he’s described. Good on Jackrip and good luck to him, online and offline.

I believe in second chances, I'm crazy for them- I've made many mistakes myself, I was once an incredibly toxic player
and I'm absolutely greatful for all the people who helped me through it and saw what I could be.

In this case, recognising your issues is the first step to any form of recovery and I believe that jackrip does a good job of putting out a genuine apology. He points out his mistakes, he's honest about where he went wrong and he displays signs of genuine regret. He looks back at how he acted and is shocked with himself...

Even if he's not forgiven I'm glad to see him grow as a person. I hope this apology is a step to help the people he hurt as it seems genuine and from the heart.

genuine appeal. i hope mso considers it

Unban him in time for election so we can get the goof/jackrip/scriptis power team as headmins.

Unban jackrip

this seems like a pretty heartfelt appeal, give him a chance imho

I didnt know he actually doxed someone i thought it was all a jape

Thaumic wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:15 am I didnt know he actually doxed someone

He didnt.

I dont know why hes owning up to "doxing" when the headmins in the original appeal literally said "we do not consider this a dox"

Please stop fucking overusing words until they are nearly meaningless you are destroying the english language i am going to weep

Annihilite111 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:18 pm On one hand, we'd let in someone who has shown themselves to be willing to attack someones real life reputation

It was a digg account that had the *EXACT* same name as his CKEY you overdramatic hysterical loser

having a "digg account" should be a blacklistable offense

I'm not sure if I read the situation correctly, but if jackrips posted a digg link to a profile with the same ckey as an admin then I'd hardly consider that a dox. You could stumble upon that just by reading the ss13 subreddit. I could probably link several admin's profiles here if I just look at the ss13 subreddit for a bit (although I'm not stupid enough to do that because it's been proven to be a trip to the blacklist). It looks like it's moreso about the shitty doxxing joke he made in combination with that link which could've pointed to having more info possibly? Plus doxxing is taken very seriously, as it should be. Correct me if I'm wrong here though.

Overall, I'd say the apology looks legitimate enough. I hope the appeal is at least considered seriously as we've definitely unbanned much more unrepentant players in the past, some who have been permabanned numerous times.

toemas wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:36 am

It was a digg account that had the *EXACT* same name as his CKEY you overdramatic hysterical loser

Then why did he act as if he ruined someone's life?

I don't know anything about this case and didn't read the appeal or prior context but in general do we really consider searching for someone's digg or Twitter with the same username doxxing?

I always considered doxxing to be more like either: finding someone's real life address/personal info, or I suppose a hidden piece of sensitive online info/something they wanted left in the past

Does an active account with the same username on a public site like Twitter/digg even count as digging up anything? Aren't you already advertising it publicly?

I guess the only reason I could see there is that since there will be some grey areas, we should prevent ambiguity and have a zero tolerance policy but I'm not so sure

I guess though even with public sites, there is a distinction between just linking your account, vs like digging up everything you've ever said publicly and bringing it up

The latter obviously ain't okay, though I guess it isn't reserved to external sites either anyways. You could do it on the forums or Discord server here

Annihilite111 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:27 am

toemas wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:36 am

It was a digg account that had the *EXACT* same name as his CKEY you overdramatic hysterical loser

Then why did he act as if he ruined someone's life?

Because that's the best way to get unbanned, and that's the bare minimum to have a chance of getting un-blacklisted.

Annihilite111 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:18 pm On one hand, we'd let in someone who has shown themselves to be willing to attack someones real life reputation over video games.
On the other hand, we'd get one (1) more player.
I think i can somewhat sense which way the scales are tilting on this one

you consider digg posts to be someones real life reputation?

also, it wasnt so much the digg link but the way he harassed people after the fact or something, I dont know, i cant remember shit that happened last week anymore

also i really hope jackrip has reached out to vekter to talk to him on discord or something, because no way in hell is he going to be okay with unbanning him even if he gets off the blacklist

On one hand, banning someone over what essentially amounts to a bad joke and being angry at the person who snitched on him (for making said bad joke) is really bad.

On the other hand, it is positive to harshly deter any form of doxxing considering the potentially severe consequences to the victim. Not the kind of thing we want casually thrown around.

On a related note, local bozo admits to a crime he didn't actually commit (of doxxing someone). The excessively apologetic (apologising for things he didn't even do) nature of his appeal makes me think he is either trolling or really depressed.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:59 am
you consider digg posts to be someones real life reputation?

also, it wasnt so much the digg link but the way he harassed people after the fact or something, I dont know, i cant remember shit that happened last week anymore

Since he was saying he'd doxxed someone i assumed he posted their real information, since that is what doxxing means.

This part is completely overblown, similar to how punching somebody in the face gets twisted into attempted murder. If that was the only thing he did, it would be complete ass.

He did a bit more than that though, like intimidating and threatening certain people using his private discord server when the admins didn't let him have his way.
So still a massive dick, unstable and not a case that I want to pick.


With secure regards
-BONERMASTER

Just a clarification that the fact the digg account and the ckey are the same does not make it not doxxing. You can "consider it not doxxing" all you want; by definition fetching identifying information online and posting it with malicious intent is defined as doxxing.

As with anything in life, the problem isn't as much of the action, but the premise that it can be done again, and the overrall measurement of someone's morals.

You can forgive if you want. MSO can lift the blacklist if they want. Two years can change a person. But saying it wasn't doxxing is just plain incorrect and diminishes the harm it can do to a person.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:07 pm Just a clarification that the fact the digg account and the ckey are the same does not make it not doxxing. You can "consider it not doxxing" all you want; by definition fetching identifying information online and posting it with malicious intent is defined as doxxing.

As with anything in life, the problem isn't as much of the action, but the premise that it can be done again, and the overrall measurement of someone's morals.

You can forgive if you want. MSO can lift the blacklist if they want. Two years can change a person. But saying it wasn't doxxing is just plain incorrect and diminishes the harm it can do to a person.

From a quick Google search: "dox": "search for and publish private or identifying information about (a particular individual) on the internet, typically with malicious intent."

The information in question was neither private nor identifying. The name of his account on some shitty outside forum does not identify him.

I'll munch on the bait.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:14 pm The information in question was neither private nor identifying. The name of his account on some shitty outside forum does not identify him.

This is the shitty outside forum, which is niche and small. You underestimate how much information can be gathered by digging around someone's digg posts if they're active enough.

It identifies them as part of an external community. It doesn't have to identify them in real life; that's just the worst possible outcome of doxxing. If I look for ekaterina and find an account that's into shady shit, I can tarnish your reputation on communities I know you're a part of.

Also, part of doxxing is the "Oh" moment when other people realize they can just look for a certain person's online alias, and dig around if they ever get pissed at them for shits and giggles.

I am curious, do you think this behaviour is ok? Like, you can just go around and look for people's usernames and publish their stuff into communities with the goal to make fun of them? 'cos that's shitty at best and dangerous at worst.

Even if he completely changed as a person and can see why what he did was wrong, nobody is entitled to forgiveness (within reason) and nobody is entitled to play on the /tg/ chunk of space station 13, especially after doing what he did. It also doesnt matter what the technical definition of doxxing is, going through the internet and pulling up stuff with the intention to harass does not leave much doubt as to what else they could do, and why im sure MSO was so general in his wording when banning it. Getting doxxed sucks. Getting doxxed because someone else got a little too upset at 2d spacemans sucks ass.

On one hand, I agree with Timber because I believe this person recognized that the actions they took were wrong (and why they were wrong). But on the comically large other hand, sometimes it is not our place to be the initial forgiving party.


or you talked to the admin already and they were cool with all of it but then why wouldn't they post in the appeal first

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:48 pm This is the shitty outside forum, which is niche and small.

This is the inside forum, as it is literally linked to the game.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:48 pm It identifies them as part of an external community. It doesn't have to identify them in real life; that's just the worst possible outcome of doxxing.

By that definition, just saying someone's Discord handle on BYOND, and vice-versa, is doxxing. You're reducing the term to mean things so petty and insignificant that it destroys the credibility of actual mentions of doxxing.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:48 pm If I look for ekaterina and find an account that's into shady shit, I can tarnish your reputation on communities I know you're a part of.

If you actually try this you will quickly find out why it won't work.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:48 pm I am curious, do you think this behaviour is ok? Like, you can just go around and look for people's usernames and publish their stuff into communities with the goal to make fun of them?

Yes. As long as you don't publish real life information (i.e. doxxing), and especially since we're talking about accounts with the same username. It's not like he went in deep to try to dig up every single account the person has ever had. It's on you if you use the same username everywhere and open yourself up to this kind of thing.
More importantly, unlike your real identity, you can change your online identity anytime you like, so it doesn't have destructive and permanent consequences like actual doxxing.

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:14 pm nobody is entitled to forgiveness (within reason) and nobody is entitled to play on the /tg/ chunk of space station 13, especially after doing what he did

'Doing what he did', i.e. making a bad joke. Yes, bad jokes are unforgivable.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:48 pm I'll munch on the bait.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:14 pm The information in question was neither private nor identifying. The name of his account on some shitty outside forum does not identify him.

This is the shitty outside forum, which is niche and small. You underestimate how much information can be gathered by digging around someone's digg posts if they're active enough.

It identifies them as part of an external community. It doesn't have to identify them in real life; that's just the worst possible outcome of doxxing. If I look for ekaterina and find an account that's into shady shit, I can tarnish your reputation on communities I know you're a part of.

Also, part of doxxing is the "Oh" moment when other people realize they can just look for a certain person's online alias, and dig around if they ever get pissed at them for shits and giggles.

I am curious, do you think this behaviour is ok? Like, you can just go around and look for people's usernames and publish their stuff into communities with the goal to make fun of them? 'cos that's shitty at best and dangerous at worst.

these are extremely good takes on the situation, and online communities and handles in general

Yeah I think it would've been a little different if jackrip had linked a post and said look at soandso's bad opinion here. The admin used the same username in a connected community and I'd hardly consider that doxing. Instead he linked the admin's digg profile and made a shitty doxing joke which is a bad look, can give others the wrong idea, and is pretty scary for the admin in question.

Whether this is all real or fake:

The self-pitying text wall in 'your side of the story' does absolutely nothing to remedy or mitigate where things are at, its just going to serve as a trap that'll 'tug at your heart strings' and make them look like a victim of the system for having addictive tendencies.

They'd be better off putting that much effort into the 'why to unban them' and 'references of good conduct' sections.

Dude needs to get a grip and act appropriately. If they are attempting to show that they are mending bridges, they need to layout exactly what they have done to do so in the SS13 community if he honestly wants this to even be considered.

Not trying to shit on them, but that is the reality of things if they want this have even the slightest possibility of being accepted. People don't get removed from the blacklist JUST because they feel sorry for themselves.

People that appeal serious things without mitigation in general are just asking to get bodied, regardless of what the context is. Mitigation via time, via efforts made, via new proof, whatever. Just anything is better than this.

For example: people can talk about addiction all day but actually going to rehab and sticking through it? That's something else entirely.

Did they deal with doxxing on Voidcrew when hosting? Hey that'd show a real understanding of things.

Maybe next time they'll figure it out.

fwiw, as someone in the metacord at the time, jackrip literally said something akin to "I'm gonna dox that idiot" before posting the link. argue about the definition or whatever, but twas clearly at the very least meant to harass

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:06 pm

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:14 pm nobody is entitled to forgiveness (within reason) and nobody is entitled to play on the /tg/ chunk of space station 13, especially after doing what he did

'Doing what he did', i.e. making a bad joke. Yes, bad jokes are unforgivable.

i dont see the point of arguing semantics. If MSO didnt take a hard stance against doxxing in the reasoning for the blacklist (which was the right choice since it allowed him to set precedent going forward), the guy probably wouldve just been given a similar looking ban but under rule 0.

He made a dumb malicious joke about something that is very serious, especially given how bad the issue was years ago in the ss13 community, and appearently doubled down (because i dont see how it gets this bad without the person doubling down...) and then the AI appeal? Time away from the game seems to have done him well so why not keep the good train going for him?

edited last paragraph for clarity

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:08 am On one hand, banning someone over what essentially amounts to a bad joke and being angry at the person who snitched on him (for making said bad joke) is really bad.

id like to note that they werent angry at a person that snitched on them, they threatened to ruin a random admin's ss13 career because they thought that was the snitching person.

anyway, i think the apppeal tries a bit too hard to the extent where i dont know if its genuine, but jackrip has done a good job with hosting voidcrew and keeping it from being very toxic, i think they could be fairly unblacklisted.

Fikou wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:43 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:08 am On one hand, banning someone over what essentially amounts to a bad joke and being angry at the person who snitched on him (for making said bad joke) is really bad.

id like to note that they werent angry at a person that snitched on them, they threatened to ruin a random admin's ss13 career because they thought that was the snitching person.

anyway, i think the apppeal tries a bit too hard to the extent where i dont know if its genuine, but jackrip has done a good job with hosting voidcrew and keeping it from being very toxic, i think they could be fairly unblacklisted.

... he threatened to tell everyone that this admin snitched. That's "ruining someone's life"?
Either you've seen screenshots I haven't or you're blowing it out of proportion.
What I've seen is what's here: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=29175

Agree with your second paragraph.

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:56 pm He made a dumb malicious joke about something that is very serious, especially given how bad the issue was years ago in the ss13 community, and appearently doubled down (because i dont see how it gets this bad without the person doubling down...) and then the AI appeal? Time away from the game seems to have done him well so why not keep the good train going for him?

The AI appeal was a hilarious and divine shitpost. It does not reflect poorly on him, on the contrary.

As to the rest of what you say, you agree it was a joke, regardless of how bad it was. He was clearly angry when he said it, blowing off steam. Do you really think he should remain blacklisted over a joke?

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:06 pm comment dissection

Your understanding of the situation and the problem in question has so many holes in it it's a wonder I can't see through my monitor. I can do nothing but hope you can see past this view someday. Sorry I couldn't explain this better.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:57 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:06 pm comment dissection

Your understanding of the situation and the problem in question has so many holes in it it's a wonder I can't see through my monitor. I can do nothing but hope you can see past this view someday. Sorry I couldn't explain this better.

It's fascinating how my reply has so many holes yet you couldn't point out a single one.
A disagreement with your view is not in itself a "hole".

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:54 pm

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:56 pm He made a dumb malicious joke about something that is very serious, especially given how bad the issue was years ago in the ss13 community, and appearently doubled down (because i dont see how it gets this bad without the person doubling down...) and then the AI appeal? Time away from the game seems to have done him well so why not keep the good train going for him?

The AI appeal was a hilarious and divine shitpost. It does not reflect poorly on him, on the contrary.

walking into court in a silly costume and an exaggerated southern accent to argue a speeding ticket can be kinda funny, but is still a bit odd for the situation.
Walking into court in a silly costume and an exaggerated southern accent to argue against being accused of a hate crime or something else about as heinous is very likely not going to be that funny in context. Going above and beyond to be lazy also shows the people that need to read the appeal (notably the people affected and MSO) that you dont really care about the entire situation. And before you start no im not calling what jackrip did a hate crime or whatever, I'm just saying that a blacklist is the absolute furthest MSO can go (that i know of O_O) to keep someone away from the tg community. Usually they are even UNAPPEALABLE. Knowing this, Jack realized that he had to either shit or get off the pot and he decided to shit everywhere other than the pot. Even though it provides humor, it reflects terribly that he would joke in a situation that calls for the exact opposite

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:54 pm
As to the rest of what you say, you agree it was a joke, regardless of how bad it was. He was clearly angry when he said it, blowing off steam. Do you really think he should remain blacklisted over a joke?

you can call it a joke all you want but saying you are going to dox someone and providing social media handles / posts / etc; that you dig up yourself (even if you didnt have to go too far) is a threat. Jack did a big no no against someone he disliked (and from what im reading he wasnt the most pleasant person to others). Some things you just cant make jokes about to people you arent very familiar with (and even then, some topics still arent joked about). He got blacklisted over one of the worst things you can do to another community member (without messing with them IRL) and then made a meme appeal about it. Time away from ss13 seems to have done him good too

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:48 pm you can call it a joke all you want but saying you are going to dox someone and providing social media handles / posts / etc; that you dig up yourself (even if you didnt have to go too far) is a threat. He got blacklisted over one of the worst things you can do to another community member (without messing with them IRL) and then made a meme appeal about it. Time away from ss13 seems to have done him good too

Put like this, I have a better understanding of your point of view. As you see it, he threatened another member of the community with doxxing.
You're not arguing he doxxed him - which he obviously didn't - but rather that he threatened to do it, which is a serious infraction too.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:07 pm by definition fetching identifying information online and posting it with malicious intent is defined as doxxing.

Congratulations moron, you proved that it wasnt doxing with your own definition

Helpful image for the mentally deprived:

toemas wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:04 pm

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:07 pm by definition fetching identifying information online and posting it with malicious intent is defined as doxxing.

Congratulations moron, you proved that it wasnt doxing with your own definition

headmins in jack's first appeal said that what he posted wasn't doxxing information but the issue i personally have with what jack did was him going "im going to dox [x]" and then showing that they were beginning to dig up a few things

i think this is the issue with the entire situation. it's a doxxing ban. but what jack did wasn't doxxing. it was the fact he disregarded common etiquette.

i don't agree with that alone being enough to permaban, but the fact he went psycho on someone else not involved makes me think it's enough to warrant a permaban for all that has stacked up

i'll repeat it again just so people don't think i'm stacking the cards against jack: i hope the mso considers his appeal and i hope the headmins do as well

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:14 pm what he posted wasn't doxxing information but the issue i personally have with what jack did was him going "im going to dox [x]" and then showing that they were beginning to dig up a few things
i think this is the issue with the entire situation. it's a doxxing ban. but what jack did wasn't doxxing. it was the fact he disregarded common etiquette.

Of course

I think they should let him back in. If he fucks it up immediately, then its not really that hard to just ban him again, is it?

On one hand, I'd be willing to forgive him if he apologized. On the other, I really don't think setting the precedent that you can come back after doxxing someone is a good idea. Blacklists are permanent by nature, you aren't meant to be allowed back at all. You've done something so heinous or been such a blight on the community that we officially don't want you back. The only reason his actions didn't cause more damage is that I'm relatively careful about what I post online.

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:36 pm On one hand, I'd be willing to forgive him if he apologized. On the other, I really don't think setting the precedent that you can come back after doxxing someone is a good idea. Blacklists are permanent by nature, you aren't meant to be allowed back at all. You've done something so heinous or been such a blight on the community that we officially don't want you back. The only reason his actions didn't cause more damage is that I'm relatively careful about what I post online.

Agreed. I am disappointed that a game master, not even a forum admin, is able to see his appeal and make it public. Blacklists are supposed to represent people stuck inside a ban blackhole. They shouldn't be allowed to participate in the community ever again.

His posts should get automatically rejected, not just hidden. Appealing a blacklist also means they disagree with the blacklist, so obviously they know they're doing the wrong thing. The right thing would've been to never dox, and to never attempt to confirm a presence in the tg community ever again.