i want a headmin review because the explosion wasn't my fault nut

[Scriptis]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33546

if you bring TTVs onto the shuttle without properly securing them and they go off it's your fault

it's like bringing a plasma canister onto the shuttle and saying "it was for eorg!!" when some ban evader opens it

[HommandoSA]

Fair ban, he brought dangerous devices into an area they had no use for other than grief then the inevitable happened.

[massa]

the only guilty party is the party that detonated the bomb

if you disagree you're a soy

[Bawhoppennn]

Oh come on, this is literally classic ss13, not everything is supposed to be bubblewrapped

It is beyond blatant that the person was not being excessively cavalier with not guarding them, or intentionally letting people take them to blow them up

How this is even a ban is beyond me... if it was a repeat offense or they were being totally careless and just leaving them on the floor, sure... but this is not that

[kinnebian]

i was exploded by this it was a maxcap that killed all of the shuttle spare the warden and some people in the bridge, its not suprising someone got punished for this because it was manuel

[Scriptis]

upon closer inspection i can safely confirm that bawhoppennn is right

a fuckin' durand busted this shit open. you can't deal with that as a poor science man

[Scriptis]

i was exploded by this it was a maxcap that killed all of the shuttle spare the warden and some people in the bridge, its not suprising someone got punished for this because it was manuel

it was terry

[kinnebian]

i was exploded by this it was a maxcap that killed all of the shuttle spare the warden and some people in the bridge, its not suprising someone got punished for this because it was manuel

it was terry

isnt this a twist- this is what i get for posting on forums as soon as i wake up

[AlamoTurtle]

These kind of bans are the ones that really give me mixed feelings.
On one hand, the poor bastard brought bombs onto a shuttle for EORG, and you're accountable for any absolutely ridiculous EORG garbage you drag onto shuttle. Keeping them tucked away in a bag of holding or simply having all the plasma tanks detached and in a duffel bag you wear would be a safer bet, albeit tedious. I'd be pissed if some nonantag thought it was a genius play to load the shuttle up with nukes just for the risk and fun, because of course they would, then lo and behold, they go off and get away with it?
However, it was clearly not intended to be grief or to bait people. They took the effort to keep it away from the rest of the crew, and what can you do if some nosey fuckmech decides to bash down your locker and the rest of the vultures pry your bombs apart and send the signal like an idiot? Is it really on you at that point? Intent is a huge manner of this game, and that's why these bans are just sad in the end. Someone needs to get punished for being a prick, but the person just trying to spice things up is the one who gets it. It leads to a more reclusive playstyle where you do take all manners of caution and kill a lot of the fun in fear of admin retaliation. Sometimes it's deserved, but at times like these, nah.

It reminds me of an admin event that was ruined by a player rushing in and immediately opening a crate with no lock or protection aside from an ERT which lacked HAUL gloves. Of course, the event was ruined and the person who opened it was hit with a ban. How does that apply here? Why is the owner of the explosives held accountable for taking the effort to prevent trouble from occurring instead of the nosey players who JUST ABSOLUTELY NEEDED to break the locker open to satisfy their curiosity? At the end of the day, it's a pretty lenient two days for wiping an entire shuttle, but it supports a set precedent, and it's one that leads our community to be a lot more passive in their pursuit of exploring stuff.

TL;DR: shit happens, give kudos to someone wanting to make things interesting, they're not the greyshits that need the ban, I need to get sleep.

[cybersaber101]

bring bombs on shuttle
they explode
NOT MY FAULT!!!!!!

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I'm fine with this as long as the mech pilot griffer who smashed the locker open and the people who disassembled and signalled all got a shared piece of the ban pie.

[Timberpoes]

I think in terms of "the thread of responsibility".

When you set up a dangerous or risky scenario, you are responsible for your own actions. There's always a strong thread of responsibility binding you to direct consequences of actions you directly caused or carried out.

You are somewhat responsible for the obvious or reasonably foreseeable actions of other players when you set up a dangerous or risky scenario. There's a frayed thread of responsibility for you setting up the scenario. Thinner, weaker.

And for anything not obvious or not reasonably foreseeable, you really shouldn't be held responsible for outcomes that are unreasonable or outcomes where other people break the rules. Their actions sever your thread of responsibility entirely.

The ban clearly accepted there was a frayed thread of responsibility, quote: "While the blame doesn't entirely lay on you here you still created this extremely dangerous situation by bringing TTVs onto the shuttle. Alot of folks died but Ill reduce the ban to two days due to the circumstances."

My own personal feelings are that the thread was probably severed at the point a 3rd party detatched the signaller from the first TTV and pinged it to explode the second, propped up a little by how powerless Mazur was to contest this course of action (excepting that Mazur set up the conditions for it to happen in the first place). I would usually classify this as an SS13 moment where I drop some verbal warning wisdom bombs to the involved parties and send them on their way.

Despite that, I still think Coco's approach is a totally valid interpretation. It's just a little on the heckin' harsh side of holding Player A accountable for the independent actions of Player B for me.

So I put forward some open questions for discussion:

Should such a player be genuinely punished when they are incapacitated in some way, the locker is smashed into with a mech, a player dismantles one of the two bombs and then pings the signaller on it to activate the second bomb through accident, stupidity or incompetence (from my very brief investigation)?

If you think yes, should the player always be responsible for the consequences of bringing a TTV onto the shuttle regardless of how foreseeable their actions were or whether other players broke the rules in the process of exploding it? Or is there some point you would consider that thread severed?

If you think no, at what point was the thread of responsibility severed and the player no longer responsible for what happened with the TTV they brought onto the shuttle?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I'm torn on this.

On the one hand, I think people who do this for EORG are kinda lame. You're denying everyone else a chance to have any fun in the EORG. But at the same time, setting off Big Bomb is also very fun. (This point is largely moot in the grand scheme of things, but the schadenfreude's worth talking about as a spectator)

On the other hand...as everyone else has said, he did put in a solid effort to keep things safe and contained.

If he'd just walked onto the shuttle with the bombs in his hands, I'd probably say the ban was the right thing, but in a welded locker? Sounds like the Greyshits were the problems.

I do assume, however, that the one who actually set the bomb off got banned, too. It'd be fucking insane if they weren't, and I trust our admin team not to make that mistake.

Edit:

And for anything not obvious or not reasonably foreseeable, you really shouldn't be held responsible for outcomes that are unreasonable or outcomes where other people break the rules. Their actions sever your thread of responsibility entirely.

I'm personally of the opinion that nobody can reasonably plan for a Mech deciding that it HAS to know what's inside a locker. If he'd just placed the signaler on a table or something, then that's rather obvious. But nobody could plan for a Mech breaking into it, nobody could STOP that from happening, and nobody could ever plan for someone deciding to disassemble one and, for reasons known only to god, signal said signaler.

[iwishforducks]

times like these i wish we had public bans so i could gauge my feelings. 90% of my opinion is based on what the punishment was for the other players.

two days isnt that long in the grand scheme of things and i would also be inclined to tell players to be careful about what they bring onto the shuttle

on the other hand… they were stunned and had a mech break open their locker. what the fuck were they supposed to do about that? but at the same time… dragging a welded locker onto a shuttle as a scientist(?) is sorta a “act like an antag, get treated like an antag” moment. but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the other players motherfucking EXPLODED the bombs.

is a plasmaman responsible for when someone stuns and strips them, causing them to light ablaze themselves and all that dare step around them? the obvious answer is no. but why? well the intent of a plasmaman is not to light everyone ablaze. but a bomb has one purpose: EXPLODE. and so when you bring an item’s that soul intent is to explode onto the shuttle, well… can you really act that surprised?

conclusion: note them. tell them not to bring bombs onto the shuttle again. let them know it was really, really funny but that if they bring bombs that ultimately explode onto the shuttle before EORG then only god can protect them from admin punishment. 2 days is whatever. i dont think its necessary to ban for 2 days (it doesnt achieve much) but it’s also totally valid to do so.

[kieth4]

I've got a simple and quick view. The bombs were secured, it's not his fault. An unrelated shitter broke the locker took apart the bomb and then blew it up. What was he meant to do? Kill the gygax?

[Turbonerd]

Simply not bring TTVs to the shuttle simply for EORG. If someone wants to do something involving TTVs, there better be a good fucking reason other than "I want to grief".

It is his fault simply because EORG is the only reason why he brought the TTVs. Fail RP and cringe. People that prepare for EORG and do it wrong deserves whatever happens next. Fuck you NRPers. You don't deserve the "classic SS13" protection if you don't attempt to have any RP reason on bringing the TTVs.

[Ziiro]

Simply not bring TTVs to the shuttle simply for EORG. If someone wants to do something involving TTVs, there better be a good fucking reason other than "I want to grief".

It is his fault simply because EORG is the only reason why he brought the TTVs. Fail RP and cringe. People that prepare for EORG and do it wrong deserves whatever happens next. Fuck you NRPers. You don't deserve the "classic SS13" protection if you don't attempt to have any RP reason on bringing the TTVs.

Yeah, basically.

Like he did his due diligence on trying to make sure this didn't happen, and it still happened. Too bad. You took the risks, eat shit.

I do think the gygax pilot should actually share the punishment though.

[rasonj]

Intent matters, it was obvious the intent of the bomb maker was to keep them secured and use them after the round. The intent I can't figure out is what possible intent did the signal clicker have? I cannot think of a reason to take a signaller off of a ttv and then activate it other than you are hoping to trigger the other bomb.

[MooCow12]

We do have an ic reason to bring ttvs onto the shuttle to centcomm though. The entire station is dedicated to plasma research and substances that are partially made of plasma (Super matter also requires plasma to be made)

One of the things being researched is the explosive capability of bombs made using plasma and substances made by plasma (trit)

So wouldnt it make sense to take a sample with you to hopefully be set for life because of the sheer $ value of a decent ttv? (Although probably in separate pieces / tanks)

Speaking of preventing it from exploding before eorg..why not just detatch one of the tanks and put it in your backpack, its only a single mouseclick to put it back on and if someone tries to take it off you itl atleast take a moment to get it before they can activate the ttv, delaying the boom quite a bit.

[Shellton(Mario)]

Simply not bring TTVs to the shuttle simply for EORG. If someone wants to do something involving TTVs, there better be a good fucking reason other than "I want to grief".

It is his fault simply because EORG is the only reason why he brought the TTVs. Fail RP and cringe. People that prepare for EORG and do it wrong deserves whatever happens next. Fuck you NRPers. You don't deserve the "classic SS13" protection if you don't attempt to have any RP reason on bringing the TTVs.

I really dont understand why you guys are so mald at someone who gets pwned by a mech and gets his bombs stolen then triggered. Not only is it not his fault to begin with its only 2 mins out of the 30-60min round to miss out that is spent the next round waiting room.

But my take here is that it should just be a note at most, dude got owned by a mech which he can't do anything about. He had no intention of blowing up the bombs early and it wanst even him who did it. The punishment is not preventing any behavior because the player wans't going to blow up the bombs early to begin with. Also I really don't care if someone misses out on 2 mins of a round that is spent afk on a shuttle

[conrad]

It's a two day ban for unintentional griefing as a non-antag. If you bring a maxcap to the escape shuttle and it goes off, it's your ass.

Coco's interpretation of "There was no ill intention, so two day ban" is perfectly valid. If it was intentional, self-antaging behaviour, a longer ban would be expected.

You people need to learn that a ban, unless it's a permaban, is not placed to prevent griefing over the banning period, but to disencourage shitty, dumb, or shitty dumb behaviour.

[Cobby]

How many times do we have to deal with this same flavor of this scenario before people start getting the point to not setup prebuilt no fun allowed setups to btfo peeps for 5 seconds when the alternative is not being allowed to play at all for days.

End of Round is a sacred place for mischief making, up until that text though you abide as if you dont get to kill everyone in 30 seconds or pray you’ve hidden it well enough it wasn’t obvious until the text shows up.

[ekaterina]

the only guilty party is the party that detonated the bomb

This. While he should've secured his bombs better, he is not at fault. He should've been warned, gotten a note at most.

two days isnt that long in the grand scheme of things

Even one second of unfair ban is too long.

[iwishforducks]

two days isnt that long in the grand scheme of things

Even one second of unfair ban is too long.

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/ ... eted10.wav

[oranges]

ekaterina takes another L

[saprasam]

this ban is fair. i dont get why people are saying the gygax is in the wrong here though. when you see a welded locker while you aren't supposed to care, it's also a gnawing feeling that there could be something malicious in there. of which. there were bombs.

[Misdoubtful]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Also anyone ever notice that if you bring a welded locker onto the shuttle people will 99% of the time try and open it?

[Capsandi]

I have no clue how ppl can spend half the round stuck in toxins making eorg bombs considering theres probably going to be an admin who logs on 3 minutes before round end who maxcaps the shuttle using admin verbs anyways.

[iwishforducks]

this ban is fair. i dont get why people are saying the gygax is in the wrong here though. when you see a welded locker while you aren't supposed to care, it's also a gnawing feeling that there could be something malicious in there. of which. there were bombs.

act like an antag...

[CPTANT]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Are we now shitting on people for NOT writing 5 page essays on why they need to be unbanned?

[conrad]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Are we now shitting on people for NOT writing 5 page essays on why they need to be unbanned?

Every time I see someone with the headspace of absolute extremes, I feel pain and distress.

There's a middle ground between a chimp grunting and a professor essaying over their space gas game ban.

[Misdoubtful]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Are we now shitting on people for NOT writing 5 page essays on why they need to be unbanned?

Every time I see someone with the headspace of absolute extremes, I feel pain and distress.

There's a middle ground between a chimp grunting and a professor essaying over their space gas game ban.

[Bawhoppennn]

this is the internet middlegrounds aren't real

[BeeSting12]

Agree with saprasam. If someone brings a welded locker onto the shuttle then it's reasonable to wonder what's in it. Especially if it's a scientist or chemist. Presumably, the mech pilot/roboticist would know that they were working toxins, making it even more suspicious. The player set up a situation where it was likely that a bomb would go off in a crowded area, and they had no legitimate IC reason to do so. The player who signalled the remote signaller is also somewhat at fault here. It's common sense not to signal something that just came off a bomb. I'd say that person shared 50-50 blame with the guy who brought bombs for EORG, and I'd hope he received a ban as well.

Also, it's not a matter of writing a 5 page essay to defend your actions. The appealer has shown he doesn't want to discuss it with the banning admin, he just wants to waste headmin time with an obviously correct ban. Requesting headmin review is such a no-brainer because you have nothing to lose besides your reputation of not being a crybaby. When you clearly cause grief to this many people then the onus is on you to bring up evidence and policy to support your unban and note removal.

[Fren256]

We do have an ic reason to bring ttvs onto the shuttle to centcomm though. The entire station is dedicated to plasma research and substances that are partially made of plasma (Super matter also requires plasma to be made)

One of the things being researched is the explosive capability of bombs made using plasma and substances made by plasma (trit)

So wouldnt it make sense to take a sample with you to hopefully be set for life because of the sheer $ value of a decent ttv? (Although probably in separate pieces / tanks)

This happened in LRP so I doubt they care about the lore at all. Doesn't sound like a bad reasoning for MRP tho.

[exymian]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Are we now shitting on people for NOT writing 5 page essays on why they need to be unbanned?

Every time I see someone with the headspace of absolute extremes, I feel pain and distress.

There's a middle ground between a chimp grunting and a professor essaying over their space gas game ban.

Yes because arguing with the admin that banned you is pointless. You could have argued about it in the ahelps and if the admin was not that sure to ban the person then he wouldnt have banned the player.

I can't even believe that some are justifying this ban on an LRP server in a videogame. Grow up

[ekaterina]

Yes because arguing with the admin that banned you is pointless. You could have argued about it in the ahelps and if the admin was not that sure to ban the person then he wouldnt have banned the player.
I can't even believe that some are justifying this ban on an LRP server in a videogame. Grow up

Absolutely. Notice how many MRP players are agreeing with this ban even though it took place on LRP. If we wanted their shitty standards, we'd play MRP instead of LRP. Almost like they don't get LRP culture.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

you ever wonder if ekaterina is aware that they lowkey sabotage every side that they agree with by making everything a culture war

[Misdoubtful]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Are we now shitting on people for NOT writing 5 page essays on why they need to be unbanned?

Every time I see someone with the headspace of absolute extremes, I feel pain and distress.

There's a middle ground between a chimp grunting and a professor essaying over their space gas game ban.

Yes because arguing with the admin that banned you is pointless. You could have argued about it in the ahelps and if the admin was not that sure to ban the person then he wouldnt have banned the player.

I can't even believe that some are justifying this ban on an LRP server in a videogame. Grow up

You do realize that it takes effort to convince people that a ban is placed wrongly, yes?

You do realize there is always the potential that something might be missed or not factored in, yes?

That means bringing up relevant info, yes?

That that means attempting to change the admins mind, and by extension convince the headmins, yes?

Or do you just expect entitlement in the form of everyone doing the work for you?

You also understand that appealing a ban just because you don't like that you got banned isn't a valid reason to appeal, yes?

That there has to be something actively wrong with the ban, it's intent, bias, something being overly harsh for x reason, missing info that paints things in a new light, etc., yes?

That immediately wanting to 'speak to the manager' literally shut downs the entire appeal when they could have presented any possible issues and potentially not had to wait for headmins to look at it when the ban may now very well serve it's full course in the meantime, yes? (That they will now serve out entirely because they decided not to when there was the possibility that they wouldn't have to)

That instead of doing so they could have put some actual effort into their appeal, yes?

That there might be nothing to argue against the intent of this ban even with more information?

That demanding a headmin review doesn't mean you'll get one?

Per your last appeal:

In order to successfully appeal a note, you either have to prove that the note is untruthful or unwarranted. You've done neither here.

Awfully similar, ain't it? Does it make sense that doing something like they did here is just an absolute waste of their time and fails to resolve the appeal in a timely fashion because they aren't proving anything?

Piss off and do some growing up yourself if you're going to choose to act like this by the way, this isn't a daycare center.

[conrad]

Yes?

I can hear hugs' sanity slipping.

[Misdoubtful]

Dude just missed the point entirely, so it clearly needed to be spelled out to them when they decided to be a toxic dickhead.

People aren't doing themselves any favors by stonewalling their own appeals like this.

When Coconut is saying something like 'At this point in time I don't see a reason to...', what he is really saying is 'you didn't do your homework yet so there is no place for this to go, or maybe there is nothing left to be said if its straight forward'.

[conrad]

I agree. It's a lack of empathy. Put yourself in the headmin's shoes: what are they gonna do when they read the appeal asking for a headmin ruling?

If I were headmin I would laugh and lock the thread without saying a word, as to demonstrate exatly what chimp grunting feels like from the other end.

[exymian]

Another ban appeal to add to the tally where communication full stops with a 'I want headmin' rather than this dude taking the time to bring up relevant things in their own appeal.

Smh.

Are we now shitting on people for NOT writing 5 page essays on why they need to be unbanned?

Every time I see someone with the headspace of absolute extremes, I feel pain and distress.

There's a middle ground between a chimp grunting and a professor essaying over their space gas game ban.

Yes because arguing with the admin that banned you is pointless. You could have argued about it in the ahelps and if the admin was not that sure to ban the person then he wouldnt have banned the player.

I can't even believe that some are justifying this ban on an LRP server in a videogame. Grow up

You do realize that it takes effort to convince people that a ban is placed wrongly, yes?

You do realize there is always the potential that something might be missed or not factored in, yes?

That means bringing up relevant info, yes?

That that means attempting to change the admins mind, and by extension convince the headmins, yes?

Or do you just expect entitlement in the form of everyone doing the work for you?

You also understand that appealing a ban just because you don't like that you got banned isn't a valid reason to appeal, yes?

That there has to be something actively wrong with the ban, it's intent, bias, something being overly harsh for x reason, missing info that paints things in a new light, etc., yes?

That immediately wanting to 'speak to the manager' literally shut downs the entire appeal when they could have presented any possible issues and potentially not had to wait for headmins to look at it when the ban may now very well serve it's full course in the meantime, yes? (That they will now serve out entirely because they decided not to when there was the possibility that they wouldn't have to)

That instead of doing so they could have put some actual effort into their appeal, yes?

That there might be nothing to argue against the intent of this ban even with more information?

That demanding a headmin review doesn't mean you'll get one?

Per your last appeal:

In order to successfully appeal a note, you either have to prove that the note is untruthful or unwarranted. You've done neither here.

Awfully similar, ain't it? Does it make sense that doing something like they did here is just an absolute waste of their time and fails to resolve the appeal in a timely fashion because they aren't proving anything?

Piss off and do some growing up yourself if you're going to choose to act like this by the way, this isn't a daycare center.

This man posted an essay im not gonna read

[ekaterina]

That there has to be something actively wrong with the ban, it's intent, bias, something being overly harsh for x reason, missing info that paints things in a new light, etc., yes?

Did something happen to the presumption of innocence while I wasn't looking?
If not, shouldn't it be up to the admin to prove that the ban was right rather than up to the player to prove that the ban was wrong?

This man posted an essay im not gonna read

"This [lizard] went out of her way to educate/debate me and I'm going to waste her effort by not doing the bare minimum of reading it :DDDD"
Cringe.

[Misdoubtful]

This man posted an essay im not gonna read

That there has to be something actively wrong with the ban, it's intent, bias, something being overly harsh for x reason, missing info that paints things in a new light, etc., yes?

Did something happen to the presumption of innocence while I wasn't looking?
If not, shouldn't it be up to the admin to prove that the ban was right rather than up to the player to prove that the ban was wrong?

Honestly, you don't really see this on servers as something that comes up in appeals. Appeals just show the cases where the extension of that innocence river has run dry, so they tend to be pretty skewed. If that makes sense.

Its up to one side as much as it is the other. In this case though the events are more or less cut and dry and don't have the most weight when this ban is all about the intentions of the ban and behavior that is trying to be curtailed. The ban isn't about how secure the TTV's were, nor is it about the mech breaking into the locker, or anything like that. Its about the creation of such a hazard on the shuttle to begin with. The circumstances of how things got blown up were already baked into the ban and resulted in the bans time reduction.

While the blame doesn't entirely lay on you here you still created this extremely situation by bringing TTVs onto the shuttle

[Kendrickorium]

That there has to be something actively wrong with the ban, it's intent, bias, something being overly harsh for x reason, missing info that paints things in a new light, etc., yes?

Did something happen to the presumption of innocence while I wasn't looking?
If not, shouldn't it be up to the admin to prove that the ban was right rather than up to the player to prove that the ban was wrong?

This man posted an essay im not gonna read

"This [lizard] went out of her way to educate/debate me and I'm going to waste her effort by not doing the bare minimum of reading it :DDDD"
Cringe.

I like you but you are a poor replacement for sinful, sadly

[conrad]

Timber showed up, pulled up logs. Dude went "Thanks for logs. Headmin pls. Unga bunga."

If he gets unbanned or the note gets removed I'm gonna pee each of your pants.

[Dax Dupont]

Honestly a welded locker seems sufficient, it's not like he went "oh no i dropped a bomb"

[Epoc]

if you bring bombs onto the shuttle, you're asking for trouble
simple as

[Timberpoes]

Timber showed up, pulled up logs. Dude went "Thanks for logs. Headmin pls. Unga bunga."

If he gets unbanned or the note gets removed I'm gonna pee each of your pants.

Can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it speak.