I need YOUR help. (Yes, you.)

[Timonk]

It is almost time for me to decide what to study, and i still don't know what I want to study, but i narrowed it down to 2ish options.
So basically to get this i need to explain the German school system: i can't go study at a uni but i can study at a so called "Hochschule" (theoretical + 1 practice year) to get a bachelor's degree. After i have that i can go study at a university.

I want 2 options:
Game design bachelor's + masters (goes into AI n special shit)
IT security bachelor's and masters in Cybercrime
However i have the power to just do one of these bachelor's and go study at a uni or get a job
right now I'm heavily leaning towards game design but that has a fickle future, IT security is much more secure. I was thinking of studying IT security then game design but I'm not sure if i want to sit in school for 10 years

If you didn't get this please look at the poll i laid out all options i mentioned there. Yes. I really need YOUR help!
This is not a shizo post, this is my real life situation

[Timonk]

I forgot to mention it's more like game development than design but it has both

[HeyHey]

X. Move to America and sell used cars

[kinnebian]

youre actually insane to seek advice here for something this important

[dirk_mcblade]

IT security probably has better job potential than game design.

[Capsandi]

As it was written by John O'Connell in the wake of the great depression, ruminating on his prior pessimism following his own future plans being dashed by economic turmoil,

"...he who I cease to be descended down far enough to reach the mouth of this murky pool. Talking for a time to a condemned man and attempting to make use of this puddle of people suffering from an imagined pressure both justifying and absolute, I dredged something up from the seabed.
Drying it, and daring not to look at it, I named it my future.
The man witnessing this, only a few years my senior, despite knowing the nature of the world and the means in which persistence could be achieved, said nothing. Although his youth provided him the vitality of a lifetime, he who stares into the future only to admire his death is entirely without agency."

[Capsandi]

Basically what im trying to say is that the guys who made the Oregon trail are still alive today and nobody knew what a dutch angle was for 75 years after film was invented so game design classes today is like going to film school in the 1910s. If you want to just like make game then do it as a side gig while working on a more reliable future career. Speaking of just like make game, ludum dare 53 is on april 28 - mayday, its good practice even if the themes can suck.

[warbluke]

You should study welding. Any time anyone asks for career advice I know that they're the sort of person who should take up welding.

[Armhulen]

i voted other and my other idea is don't let the tgstation forums decide your career choices

[datorangebottle]

i voted other and my other idea is don't let the tgstation forums decide your career choices

youre actually insane to seek advice here for something this important

both of these people are extremely correct.

if you insist on listening to our advice, pick any of the IT options. much more secure industry. from what I understand game dev is hell no matter where you go.

[iwishforducks]

IT security can be a lot of fun if you have the right amount of autism for it, else you can just be pretty much a server monkey on a big tech company. which can be a lot of maintenance work. either way, it's a good choice. you'll pretty much always have work available

game design... if you're not super passionate about it i wouldn't recommend it because it can tear you apart. i don't know what your personal background is but if you enjoy modding/coding games and if you're able to list off 5 favorite games that define your tastes then i would say you can have an extreme amount of fun with it (speaking from a game designer, but i never went to college for it); zero job stability, high chance of burnout- but can be incredibly rewarding if you're willing to stick with it

[conrad]

youre actually insane to seek advice here for something this important

I voted other to second (or third at this point) this.

I suggest you seek a careers advisor to figure out what you want, and to see if university is really what you want/need.

Good luck!

[RedBaronFlyer]

IT/IT security is way, WAY safer and a more viable career path than any sort of game development job. It's usually only when a company is imploding or facing a severe depression that it lays off its IT and IT security. There is the occasional moronic CEO that doesn't understand how IT works that fucks around and finds out why purging the IT department is a bad idea (just look at twitter), but even then, there are usually other companies salavating at the bit to get good and experienced IT personnel In today's work climate, IT is basically necessary in nearly every job field in some form or another. There's a pretty common sentiment from people who don't understand IT that think that IT people are lazy, but it's like janitors. If you don't think, "damn, where the hell is the janitor this place looks like shit," then they're doing their job. Same with IT/IT security.

95% of video game development jobs are cannon fodder, this is due in part because the supply (people wanting to work in the game industry) is significantly higher than the demand. You get paid like shit, get shit hours, barely any benefits, crunch time, and it's fairly normal for studios to liquidate part of the dev team when a project is done. I would only recommend it if you have an extreme passion for the field. This is pretty universal in both triple-A and double-A development. Results may vary when it comes to indie development. The only studio that I know of that doesn't fall into this stereotype is Valve, but you'd need loads of experience/have done something extremely impressive for them to even consider hiring you, and even then, it's a clique hellhole because it turns out that if you have a company with 300 people and no official hierarchy, then people will just make an unofficial one lead by the most sociopathic individuals possible.

Obviously, you should talk to experts in the field/read up on the field before dipping your toes in. The last thing you would want is to go into either field just to discover you hate them. Take anything said in this thread with a grain of salt and talk to actual veterans of the field you wanna step into. We're all just idiots on the internet that like spessmen go horizontal simulator.

[Capsandi]

you guys are all saying what I already used a tasteful quote from a renowned journalist's autobiography to describe

[Capsandi]

you guys are all saying what I already used a tasteful quote from a renowned journalist's autobiography to describe

[BeeSting12]

I don't know much about the German system so I can't advise you on how much schooling to pursue. IT security is definitely the safer career field though, so I will recommend that one. I voted IT sec/get a job but if there's a good difference in pay for the masters then go for that.

[Timonk]

i think i failed to elaborate why i picked these courses

i picked Game development because i genuinely failed many times to get into it by myself. if it is not the focus of my life, i find it hard to acquire new skills. if it is not taught to me by someome else, it is even harder for me. you may ask: how do you know you are interested in game programming? well, the answer is that i have tried many times and that it is one of my goals to create the game i like the most. i do not know what that game is like yet but i will figure it out. there was also that one time where i created a very small "game" in scratch in high school when it used to have the game development course.

i am more interested in the cybercrime master than the IT security bachelor. however, IT security is also something i want to do. i considered a path in engineering but the school i looked at had no course i was really interested in. my school is locally known for its forensical abilities, it even was featured in a skit in an investigative report about a bigger crime from a big newspaper where they interview experts on random aspects of the crime (in this case how they got found out)

my school also has a big focus on game development. in the course they teach you all the shit you need to develop a game on your own, they regularly push games onto steam (quite a new development though, they dont have that many yet) and apparently teach you some web dev stuff too. they also have their own esports team

► Show Spoiler

they mainly play league

[CPTANT]

For the love of god get an actual IT job and do game design as a hobby instead of going full time game design. Gamedevs are treated like shit by the industry.

[kinnebian]

► Show Spoiler

they mainly play league

as does most of our admin team...

[Timonk]

For the love of god get an actual IT job and do game design as a hobby instead of going full time game design. Gamedevs are treated like shit by the industry.

i hear you bro i am aware

[BONERMASTER]

You can save yourself 10.010,- € of debt (Bafög) and 5+ years of your life by just downloading the newest Unreal Engine SDK and watching their tutorials, and there you go, master game designer in 2 weeks.

If there is any field of study that you should consider blowing 10k on, it would be on how to dress your virtual avatar appropriately, the naked chest of yours is just simply vulgar.


With fine regards
-BONERMASTER

[Drag]

Just go off the grid and be a hobo in a box car.


It worked out for some dude in shadows over loathing

[Timonk]

You can save yourself 10.010,- € of debt (Bafög) and 5+ years of your life by just downloading the newest Unreal Engine SDK and watching their tutorials, and there you go, master game designer in 2 weeks.

If there is any field of study that you should consider blowing 10k on, it would be on how to dress your virtual avatar appropriately, the naked chest of yours is just simply vulgar.


With fine regards
-BONERMASTER

under certain conditions i get half off and 1k debt per year that i only have to pay off at the end doesnt sound bad tbh

[Timonk]

Just go off the grid and be a hobo in a box car.


It worked out for some dude in shadows over loathing

yea but i cant play ss13 that way, ever considered that?

[Timonk]

You can save yourself 10.010,- € of debt (Bafög) and 5+ years of your life by just downloading the newest Unreal Engine SDK and watching their tutorials, and there you go, master game designer in 2 weeks.

If there is any field of study that you should consider blowing 10k on, it would be on how to dress your virtual avatar appropriately, the naked chest of yours is just simply vulgar.


With fine regards
-BONERMASTER

under certain conditions i get half off and 1k debt per year that i only have to pay off at the end doesnt sound bad tbh

i was informed wrongly it is indeed 10k if i max it out which will happen but if i pay it back earlier (than 20 years?) i get back some of it

[kayozz]

52% says IT security. Don't let us down.

[Timonk]

52% says IT security. Don't let us down.

it has been 1 day and i have at least 1 month left

[Ziiro]

For the love of god get an actual IT job and do game design as a hobby instead of going full time game design. Gamedevs are treated like shit by the industry.

this and I'm also of the opinion that game design can't be taught because anyone decides to teach it is already irrelevant because the general concepts and needs of the industry are in constant evolution.

[Timonk]

For the love of god get an actual IT job and do game design as a hobby instead of going full time game design. Gamedevs are treated like shit by the industry.

this and I'm also of the opinion that game design can't be taught because anyone decides to teach it is already irrelevant because the general concepts and needs of the industry are in constant evolution.

its not the main focus, game design is one part of it. its more like game development than design

[conrad]

For the love of god get an actual IT job and do game design as a hobby instead of going full time game design. Gamedevs are treated like shit by the industry.

this and I'm also of the opinion that game design can't be taught because anyone decides to teach it is already irrelevant because the general concepts and needs of the industry are in constant evolution.

its not the main focus, game design is one part of it. its more like game development than design

There's no escape Timonk. The games industry as a whole treats people like shit.

Do it as a hobbie so you don't start hating videogames.

[Timonk]

I am aware that the game industry treats people like shit

[Timonk]

I am gonna look like I'm on hopium but in Germany unionizing is actively encouraged and endorsed and i don't think they can lay off entire unions at once (unless they are someone like Ubisoft and you are crazy if you think i will work for them)

[Drag]

Just go off the grid and be a hobo in a box car.


It worked out for some dude in shadows over loathing

yea but i cant play ss13 that way, ever considered that?

Be a hobo with wifi...

[Timonk]

Just go off the grid and be a hobo in a box car.


It worked out for some dude in shadows over loathing

yea but i cant play ss13 that way, ever considered that?

Be a hobo with wifi...

That would not be off the grid

[Annihilite111]

Just go off the grid and be a hobo in a box car.


It worked out for some dude in shadows over loathing

yea but i cant play ss13 that way, ever considered that?

Be a hobo with wifi...

That would not be off the grid

My friend who's a chemical engineer recently told me that one of the manual workers at the factory he's employed at was caught living in one of the break rooms. He'd apparently been squatting for over two years without being found out, using the decontamination showers to wash himself and distributing his food across several fridges. The factory makes high explosives...

[Timonk]

That would not be off the grid

My friend who's a chemical engineer recently told me that one of the manual workers at the factory he's employed at was caught living in one of the break rooms. He'd apparently been squatting for over two years without being found out, using the decontamination showers to wash himself and distributing his food across several fridges. The factory makes high explosives...

what did he do while he was not at work?

[Annihilite111]

what did he do while he was not at work?

I dunno. He worked shifts so i guess he mostly just slept and ate. I've no idea how he did his laundry either since i don't think laundromats are a thing in the nearby town. This is all third hand gossip anyway, so who knows how accurate it is

[CitrusGender]

get a masters in accounting and a CPA

[Bawhoppennn]

I would say do lots of things to hedge your bets, so you can shift into many areas as it becomes suitable;
Just keep your options open and do some nice genuine hard work

[Timonk]

as to why i am leaning towards game development:
it gives you lots of opportunity. my ultimate goal in life is to get rich enough to not have to worry about money. the gaming industry is high risk high reward, you just have to make a game popular enough. i can count on one hand the singular devs who have made a killing on their games but no server IT security specialists come to mind when i think of "rich person". you will always stay in that position. sure, you can make a popular app but those skills are acquired in your free time. its relatively save and high paying, but i want to be wealthy before retirement.

[Timonk]

of course im not gonna make an easy app clone and call it Squidward game or something i am not immoral

[Epoc]

If your goal is "I wanna work for video games!", about the single worst thing you could do is to pursue a Game Dev degree.

At the end of your curriculum, your only marketable skills will be an extremely limited knowledge of a few different aspects of working with a game engine. If you're lucky, at best you can expect to be hired at a large studio in an intern role to place trees and rocks around an empty field. You will be paid dirt and be asked to live in an expensive city. You will be crunched into dust, routinely working 80+ hour weeks. Statistically, you will drop out of the industry in 3-6 years. If you're somehow still in the industry after that time passes, and if by the grace of god you have not been laid off at the end of the project as is routine at large studios, you MIGHT be promoted into some sort of middle management position. At this point, 10 years from when we're having this conversation right now, you MIGHT begin to make the wage you'd expect to make right out of school in IT. You will have an extremely difficult time promoting out of this role because the head creative positions are already filled by the people who started the company, and because you have no skills beyond placing trees. To have gotten a job that was not placing trees, you would have to have persued a degree in a hyper-specific field, like CS or Fine Art, to work on the engine technology or the studio's internal tools, or do concept art, or make music, or etc.

If you decide to still get your Game Dev degree and go solo instead, you can expect to be under a massive debt burden from school, while also bringing in 0 money until your game is finished. You might work a side job to pay the bills, but then you're seriously cutting into the hours you might otherwise spend on your game just to break even. You could decide to pursue crowd-funding, but people have cooled off on the idea, and new projects from solo first-time devs rarely reach their funding goals.

Say you somehow manage to work on your game for several years, and end up with a completed product. Now you have to market it. If you don't have an existing social medial presence, this can be extremely difficult. Not to say it can't be done, but it's hard. Over 10,000 games are released on Steam every year, or about 27 games PER DAY. You're competing with every single one of those titles for the consumer's time and money.

I encourage you to go play with this for a bit to generate a random game and see the average number of reviews: https://www.generatormix.com/random-ste ... -generator. A pessimistic estimate says 1 in 30 people leave a review on a game. Of the 5 or 6 games I randomly picked, nearly all of them had about 20-30 reviews, which is just under 1000 sales. If you sell your game for $10, that's $10k, minus Steam's 30%, minus whatever taxes your country might impose. Let's call it a few thousand dollars. A few thousand dollars for several year's work. The games that do manage to become break-out hits are few and far between. Indie games suffer from a strong case of survivor bias in the public consciousness. We can all think of a dozen different indie games that made their creators millions, but we forget that for every one of those, a thousand others failed miserably.

I say all of this not to dissuade you from pursuing game dev if it's something you're truly passionate about. If it's your dream, follow your heart. I would just say:
1. Don't get a Game Dev degree. It is quite literally a scam designed to suck tuition money out of well-meaning people who like video games. You would be infinitely better served starting with a basic game project and following tutorials as you have questions. If there's any one particular aspect you enjoy or want to know more about, study that in isolation.
2. Don't go into this field if your goal is to make lots of money. As I said above, the pay at major studios is insultingly low, and indie devs routinely lose money on their projects. You'd have a better chance of becoming a millionaire by playing the lottery. Or, if you want any amount of financial security at all, do what literally all other smart people do and get a regular job, live frugally, and start an investment fund early & pay into it regularly.

[Timonk]

What you got wrong is that they teach the whole process from what I've seen. From Game Design to Art reaching into Marketing your game. But apart from these pessimistic views on these things you assume i would not be able to do at the end, you are right.

[Timonk]

Things they say i will be able to do after studying (probably depending on the direction i specialize in)
Bachelor:

Spoiler:

Game Developer, Engineer or Designer
Technical Artist
Animation Designer
3D Designer/Modeller
Level Designer or Environmental Designer
Concept Artist
Interface and Usability Designer
Mobile App Developer
E-Learning Developer
Web Developer/Designer
"Manager for interactive media"
Software Developer

Master

Spoiler:

cba to translate it right now but the most important one is probably data scientist and the module for deep learning

[Farquaar]

Have you considered clown college? I'm sure all the hours spent on a space clown sim confer a great deal of transferable skills.

That and law school from all the peanutting and rules lawyering we do around here.

[oranges]

you're missing chatGPT prompt expert