/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33727
can you believe this?? how abhorrent...

Yeah idk what the MRP expectations are but I had more RP with a mute heretic as sec on LRP so must be p low

hos was an abductor and literally could not talk and maia kept jaunting out of his grip

this is a skill issue tbh

Seems like a rule 10 moment.

Maia was also very adamant in our ticket that, had the exact same situation happened while she was HoS, she wouldn't have done the same thing.

Maia seemed to be right until I read Vekter's context: "[the HOS] literally cannot talk to people". lmao.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:55 pm Maia was also very adamant in our ticket that, had the exact same situation happened while she was HoS, she wouldn't have done the same thing.

For what it's worth I absolutely wouldn't have done the same thing either, and I have a pretty longstanding personal rule on Manuel that whenever I get cuffed/batonned I literally just alt-tab and play a game of Master Duel or Hearthstone or something because it's literally not worth your time to try and RP with sec for exactly every reason described in Maia's ticket, regardless of whether they were an abductor or not. I'm quite vocal about this being a rule of mine too.

With the state of current Manuelsec I don't think it honestly would've made a difference if they weren't an abductor.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:18 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:55 pm Maia was also very adamant in our ticket that, had the exact same situation happened while she was HoS, she wouldn't have done the same thing.

For what it's worth I absolutely wouldn't have done the same thing either, and I have a pretty longstanding personal rule on Manuel that whenever I get cuffed/batonned I literally just alt-tab and play a game of Master Duel or Hearthstone or something because it's literally not worth your time to try and RP with sec for exactly every reason described in Maia's ticket, regardless of whether they were an abductor or not.

With the state of current Manuelsec I don't think it honestly would've made a difference if they weren't an abductor.

I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it so we can find out what's going on. The exception here is, y'know. Actually being incapable of speaking to people.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:21 pm

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:18 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:55 pm Maia was also very adamant in our ticket that, had the exact same situation happened while she was HoS, she wouldn't have done the same thing.

For what it's worth I absolutely wouldn't have done the same thing either, and I have a pretty longstanding personal rule on Manuel that whenever I get cuffed/batonned I literally just alt-tab and play a game of Master Duel or Hearthstone or something because it's literally not worth your time to try and RP with sec for exactly every reason described in Maia's ticket, regardless of whether they were an abductor or not.

With the state of current Manuelsec I don't think it honestly would've made a difference if they weren't an abductor.

I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it so we can find out what's going on. The exception here is, y'know. Actually being incapable of speaking to people.

The last time I tried this was when I built a 4-tile hallway detour as a clown and spent 34 minutes out of a 60 minute round in the brig, with the same sec officer trying the exact same shit when I did the same bit the very next day.

Manuelsec is in a dogshit place and wordless arrests are literally the norm to the point that I go and play another game entirely whenever I get arrested. I ahelp it often, nothing changes.

I have zero expectation any of that is going to improve and I'm just going to continue tabbing out to play another game instead because I'm not going to try to pull teeth in a video game when I can just go do something more fun.

How lame do you have to be to make an admin complaint for ANYTHING that happens on April Fool's Day... let alone something that is very mundane like this?
Adminhelp verb should be disabled for April 1st, and Admin Complaints forum should be locked
(Not a joke)

Deadass the average sec player on Manuel is explicitly not there to roleplay and will outright tell you that if you ask them on Manuelcord or whatever, it's not some kind of secret problem. Most of the regulars outright admit it, most players know it, the defense is "it's hard to RP as sec", which I figured was bullshit, so I went out of my way to play 60 hours as Manuelsec and confirmed it was bullshit.

This exchange would be absolutely standard regardless of whether the HOS was an abductor with the current state of Manuelsec and almost every ahelp I've sent about it gets either a completely disinterested response or blames me for starting shit when I'm getting 20+ minute brig sentences for building two railings and a table and it ends up being like a 40-minute ticket to convince an admin "No, putting someone in the brig for one railing for half an hour is deranged".

It's an absolutely atrocious state and "just ahelp it" is not the solution you think it is because it got to that state with "just ahelp it" being the proposed remedy

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:40 pm Deadass the average sec player on Manuel is explicitly not there to roleplay and will outright tell you that if you ask them on Manuelcord or whatever, it's not some kind of secret problem. Most of the regulars outright admit it, most players know it, the defense is "it's hard to RP as sec", which I figured was bullshit, so I went out of my way to play 60 hours as Manuelsec and confirmed it was bullshit.

This exchange would be absolutely standard regardless of whether the HOS was an abductor with the current state of Manuelsec and almost every ahelp I've sent about it gets either a completely disinterested response or blames me for starting shit when I'm getting 20+ minute brig sentences for building two railings and a table and it ends up being like a 40-minute ticket to convince an admin "No, putting someone in the brig for one railing for half an hour is deranged".

It's an absolutely atrocious state and "just ahelp it" is not the solution you think it is because it got to that state with "just ahelp it" being the proposed remedy

I'm concentrating on actually doing what I can to fix the issue of bad sec players on Manuel. I can't speak for the other admins, but if something like this happens, please ask whoever's handling it to ping me and if I'm around I'll look into it as well. I'm not telling you that I'll take over for them (that's admin shopping and I refuse to step on another admin's toes), but if the problem is as bad as you say it is, the only way to get it fixed is to know exactly what's happening, when it's happening, and why other admins are determining it's an IC issue.

I'll also try to be on and more active in the evenings to catch this when it happens, but I can't do much if I don't know when it happens. Y'all are my eyes and ears out there. Help me so I can help you.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:40 pm Deadass the average sec player on Manuel is explicitly not there to roleplay and will outright tell you that if you ask them on Manuelcord or whatever, it's not some kind of secret problem. Most of the regulars outright admit it, most players know it, the defense is "it's hard to RP as sec", which I figured was bullshit, so I went out of my way to play 60 hours as Manuelsec and confirmed it was bullshit.

Posting this here since it applies like it did on the manuel discord:

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:51 pm

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:40 pm Deadass the average sec player on Manuel is explicitly not there to roleplay and will outright tell you that if you ask them on Manuelcord or whatever, it's not some kind of secret problem. Most of the regulars outright admit it, most players know it, the defense is "it's hard to RP as sec", which I figured was bullshit, so I went out of my way to play 60 hours as Manuelsec and confirmed it was bullshit.

Posting this here since it applies like it did on the manuel discord:

Yeah someone made this argument to me to justify it once and I thought it was bullshit so I went and played 60-ish hours straight and surprise surprise it was bullshit, most antags were so fucking thirsty to have someone actually engage with what they were doing that they practically tripped over themselves to rope me into the bit They went for top-left like 95%+ of the time.

The antag getting caught killing a doctor and then not bothering to hide their medallion, then tries to ashen passages out.
Something tells me that they were not going to be willing to hold to the terms of the deal.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:45 am The antag getting caught killing a doctor and then not bothering to hide their medallion, then tries to ashen passages out.
Something tells me that they were not going to be willing to hold to the terms of the deal.

That's sort of the point though? Like, in this case the antag hadn't really done anything interesting or engaging, got caught, and was looking to extract some sort of roleplay and fun out of the round. Instead, they got silently donked and completely stonewalled even after repeated attempts to get literally anything meaningful at all.

It's kind of expected for antags to negotiate, especially in bad faith, but it's also literally your job as security on MRP to engage with these people.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:24 pmYeah someone made this argument to me to justify it once and I thought it was bullshit so I went and played 60-ish hours straight and surprise surprise it was bullshit, most antags were so fucking thirsty to have someone actually engage with what they were doing that they practically tripped over themselves to rope me into the bit They went for top-left like 95%+ of the time.

On Manuel I witnessed a tot trying to goad the HoS into a cowboy style gun duel. They got turned down. They tried to goad the Detective into a duel. They got turned down. I eventually witnessed this guy talking to the HOP in the hallways trying to get them (anybody!) to duel them. The mans is practically begging. HOP just says "No" and walks away. I thought man that must suck. Trying to put on a show and people just give you the cold shoulder and don't engage with you in the slightest.

Then I watched an unrelated Sec Officer unceremoniously fly around the corner and baton them for possessing a Syndicate Revolver while laughing at the guy at how they'd won the duel. The guy never got to shoot it once.

It was an immensely disappointing thing to watch. I bet it would have worked much better trying that on Sybil.

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:11 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:24 pmYeah someone made this argument to me to justify it once and I thought it was bullshit so I went and played 60-ish hours straight and surprise surprise it was bullshit, most antags were so fucking thirsty to have someone actually engage with what they were doing that they practically tripped over themselves to rope me into the bit They went for top-left like 95%+ of the time.

On Manuel I witnessed a tot trying to goad the HoS into a cowboy style gun duel. They got turned down. They tried to goad the Detective into a duel. They got turned down. I eventually witnessed this guy talking to the HOP in the hallways trying to get them (anybody!) to duel them. The mans is practically begging. HOP just says "No" and walks away. I thought man that must suck. Trying to put on a show and people just give you the cold shoulder and don't engage with you in the slightest.

Then I watched an unrelated Sec Officer unceremoniously fly around the corner and baton them for possessing a Syndicate Revolver while laughing at the guy at how they'd won the duel. The guy never got to shoot it once.

It was an immensely disappointing thing to watch. I bet it would have worked much better trying that on Sybil.

Yeah that's pretty much how the majority of my gimmicks that require engagement from other players go on Manuel. Having way better luck with those on LRP.

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:11 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:24 pmYeah someone made this argument to me to justify it once and I thought it was bullshit so I went and played 60-ish hours straight and surprise surprise it was bullshit, most antags were so fucking thirsty to have someone actually engage with what they were doing that they practically tripped over themselves to rope me into the bit They went for top-left like 95%+ of the time.

On Manuel I witnessed a tot trying to goad the HoS into a cowboy style gun duel. They got turned down. They tried to goad the Detective into a duel. They got turned down. I eventually witnessed this guy talking to the HOP in the hallways trying to get them (anybody!) to duel them. The mans is practically begging. HOP just says "No" and walks away. I thought man that must suck. Trying to put on a show and people just give you the cold shoulder and don't engage with you in the slightest.

Then I watched an unrelated Sec Officer unceremoniously fly around the corner and baton them for possessing a Syndicate Revolver while laughing at the guy at how they'd won the duel. The guy never got to shoot it once.

It was an immensely disappointing thing to watch. I bet it would have worked much better trying that on Sybil.

Yeah this is literally the kind of shit you run into regularly, I'd almost say constantly on Manuel right now. The current crop of sec mains are just horribly obtuse and largely uninterested in the concept of collaborative roleplay; they play like they're the protagonist and the concept of "yes, and" escapes them.

one time i was security on manuel and a guy came up and shoved me and so i bopped him and said "rude" and people on the radio said he was a baddy but i defended him cuz i never seen him do anything bad until this point

i was rewarded with him barfing acid on his cuffs, grabbing my baton and stunning me, then immediately decapitating me with his fleshblade arm

stinky!

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:52 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:45 am The antag getting caught killing a doctor and then not bothering to hide their medallion, then tries to ashen passages out.
Something tells me that they were not going to be willing to hold to the terms of the deal.

That's sort of the point though? Like, in this case the antag hadn't really done anything interesting or engaging, got caught, and was looking to extract some sort of roleplay and fun out of the round. Instead, they got silently donked and completely stonewalled even after repeated attempts to get literally anything meaningful at all.

It's kind of expected for antags to negotiate, especially in bad faith, but it's also literally your job as security on MRP to engage with these people.

I agree, but the sad fact of this is that what the HoS did was technically in line with security policy in this case.

Murder and Major Sabotage rank amongst the most severe of crimes and can generally be met with permanent imprisonment or death, though leniency can still be offered. These are all general guidelines, and the particular context of a situation can vary greatly, so you are given some leeway as to how harsh or lenient you can be.

I agree that negotiation would be the better option, but Maia was already caught in suspicion of murdering a doctor and was found with heretic items. It's very hard to talk your way out of that.

Striders13 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:22 am

AwkwardStereo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:11 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:24 pmYeah someone made this argument to me to justify it once and I thought it was bullshit so I went and played 60-ish hours straight and surprise surprise it was bullshit, most antags were so fucking thirsty to have someone actually engage with what they were doing that they practically tripped over themselves to rope me into the bit They went for top-left like 95%+ of the time.

On Manuel I witnessed a tot trying to goad the HoS into a cowboy style gun duel. They got turned down. They tried to goad the Detective into a duel. They got turned down. I eventually witnessed this guy talking to the HOP in the hallways trying to get them (anybody!) to duel them. The mans is practically begging. HOP just says "No" and walks away. I thought man that must suck. Trying to put on a show and people just give you the cold shoulder and don't engage with you in the slightest.

Then I watched an unrelated Sec Officer unceremoniously fly around the corner and baton them for possessing a Syndicate Revolver while laughing at the guy at how they'd won the duel. The guy never got to shoot it once.

It was an immensely disappointing thing to watch. I bet it would have worked much better trying that on Sybil.

Yeah that's pretty much how the majority of my gimmicks that require engagement from other players go on Manuel. Having way better luck with those on LRP.

I think it's really funny that if you want to get into a fun scenario as an antag right now you have to go to LRP to have a decent chance of firing it off.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:32 pm I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it

Dude Vekter
I'm gonna just come from the heart here and set the policies aside for a second
Ahelping over a wordless arrest even if justified feels so intensely petty and pulls you completely out of the round
I don't want to have to write a synopsis of the events that led to the situation and engage in a 20 minute back-and-forth investigation because a seccie took a fart in my face
I get that most of your rounds are observing as an admin and I appreciate you for contributing in that way
But most players that join the server want to be in the round playing man. To ahelp every single one of these sucks the fun out of the game because you're not playing anymore at that point, you're sorta just coping endlessly in ahelps (even if it's justified coping, it messes up the vibe of playing a videogame)

this is the reason most players don't ahelp things btw, it's not your fault or admins fault, it's just we're playing a vidya game and the instant you press F12 you are now stepping out of the videogame for an indeterminate period of time to do something very unfun and definitely not the reason you chose to spend your time on spaceman

anyways on-topic this is a terrible ided complaint, HoS did nothing wrong

on topic of complaint, I hate antags who make zero effort to be stealthy and try to hide behind 'roleplay' when caught. No, releasing a crazy murdering cultist who says he's a crazy murdering cultist with no punishment is not roleplay, fuck off.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:43 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:32 pm I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it

Dude Vekter
I'm gonna just come from the heart here and set the policies aside for a second
Ahelping over a wordless arrest even if justified feels so intensely petty and pulls you completely out of the round
I don't want to have to write a synopsis of the events that led to the situation and engage in a 20 minute back-and-forth investigation because a seccie took a fart in my face
I get that most of your rounds are observing as an admin and I appreciate you for contributing in that way
But most players that join the server want to be in the round playing man. To ahelp every single one of these sucks the fun out of the game because you're not playing anymore at that point, you're sorta just coping endlessly in ahelps (even if it's justified coping, it messes up the vibe of playing a videogame)

this is the reason most players don't ahelp things btw, it's not your fault or admins fault, it's just we're playing a vidya game and the instant you press F12 you are now stepping out of the videogame for an indeterminate period of time to do something very unfun and definitely not the reason you chose to spend your time on spaceman

anyways on-topic this is a terrible ided complaint, HoS did nothing wrong

Okay, so now that we're not in a policy discussion thread, we can actually talk about the matter.

I'm going to be 100% honest with you: The way I've seen you play the game and your other recommendations all scream to me that you just really want to be able to beat the piss out of people in the game for pretty much any supposed slight. "It's lame as shit that I should have to break immersion to adminhelp this" No, it's lame as shit that people keep doing it to begin with and even lamer that you want to reinforce that by giving them valid reasons to get into a combat interaction with players.

What makes your stance even more confusing is that you don't understand that all it does is make more work for us when the security player you inevitably crit whines at us about it and the situation becomes even more complex when it could've just been "Hey, stop being an asshole and actually try to RP".

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:49 am

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:43 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:32 pm I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it

Dude Vekter
I'm gonna just come from the heart here and set the policies aside for a second
Ahelping over a wordless arrest even if justified feels so intensely petty and pulls you completely out of the round
I don't want to have to write a synopsis of the events that led to the situation and engage in a 20 minute back-and-forth investigation because a seccie took a fart in my face
I get that most of your rounds are observing as an admin and I appreciate you for contributing in that way
But most players that join the server want to be in the round playing man. To ahelp every single one of these sucks the fun out of the game because you're not playing anymore at that point, you're sorta just coping endlessly in ahelps (even if it's justified coping, it messes up the vibe of playing a videogame)

this is the reason most players don't ahelp things btw, it's not your fault or admins fault, it's just we're playing a vidya game and the instant you press F12 you are now stepping out of the videogame for an indeterminate period of time to do something very unfun and definitely not the reason you chose to spend your time on spaceman

anyways on-topic this is a terrible ided complaint, HoS did nothing wrong

Okay, so now that we're not in a policy discussion thread, we can actually talk about the matter.

I'm going to be 100% honest with you: The way I've seen you play the game and your other recommendations all scream to me that you just really want to be able to beat the piss out of people in the game for pretty much any supposed slight. "It's lame as shit that I should have to break immersion to adminhelp this" No, it's lame as shit that people keep doing it to begin with and even lamer that you want to reinforce that by giving them valid reasons to get into a combat interaction with players.

Vekter I did not speak from the heart to have you come to it with such a close-minded lack of charitable reading. Can you at least see how recommending people ahelp minor things that happen several times every single round, would have a deleterious effect on their game experience?

And yes if I am slighted I would like to make things right IC. Think of it like one of those balance scales. If I get my insuls stolen FNR I will remember that and retaliate. Because otherwise you just seethe internally and then complain about how LRP sucks and people suck and the game sucks then you stop playing and become one of the many hundreds of burnt out players/admins. I'd prefer to seek justice for the wrongdoing and obtain it and then be quelled. Has nothing to do with wanting to beat people up if I wanted to do that I'd just find one of the many assistants that are always DTF and have a friendly fight with them.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:49 am

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:43 am Dude Vekter
I'm gonna just come from the heart here and set the policies aside for a second
Ahelping over a wordless arrest even if justified feels so intensely petty and pulls you completely out of the round
I don't want to have to write a synopsis of the events that led to the situation and engage in a 20 minute back-and-forth investigation because a seccie took a fart in my face
I get that most of your rounds are observing as an admin and I appreciate you for contributing in that way
But most players that join the server want to be in the round playing man. To ahelp every single one of these sucks the fun out of the game because you're not playing anymore at that point, you're sorta just coping endlessly in ahelps (even if it's justified coping, it messes up the vibe of playing a videogame)

this is the reason most players don't ahelp things btw, it's not your fault or admins fault, it's just we're playing a vidya game and the instant you press F12 you are now stepping out of the videogame for an indeterminate period of time to do something very unfun and definitely not the reason you chose to spend your time on spaceman

anyways on-topic this is a terrible ided complaint, HoS did nothing wrong

Okay, so now that we're not in a policy discussion thread, we can actually talk about the matter.

I'm going to be 100% honest with you: The way I've seen you play the game and your other recommendations all scream to me that you just really want to be able to beat the piss out of people in the game for pretty much any supposed slight. "It's lame as shit that I should have to break immersion to adminhelp this" No, it's lame as shit that people keep doing it to begin with and even lamer that you want to reinforce that by giving them valid reasons to get into a combat interaction with players.

What makes your stance even more confusing is that you don't understand that all it does is make more work for us when the security player you inevitably crit whines at us about it and the situation becomes even more complex when it could've just been "Hey, stop being an asshole and actually try to RP".

I was pretty confused about how someone could miss understand an argument so hard but then I remembered that you played this game 3 rounds(on manual ) since Halloween of last year. What Sinful says is perfectly reasonable, he isn't even saying that he disagrees with you just that most people arn't going to go out of their way to rules lawyer every encounter because unlike you the main reason for booting up the game isn't to be a jannie. Its to have fun.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:49 am

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:43 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:32 pm I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it

Dude Vekter
I'm gonna just come from the heart here and set the policies aside for a second
Ahelping over a wordless arrest even if justified feels so intensely petty and pulls you completely out of the round
I don't want to have to write a synopsis of the events that led to the situation and engage in a 20 minute back-and-forth investigation because a seccie took a fart in my face
I get that most of your rounds are observing as an admin and I appreciate you for contributing in that way
But most players that join the server want to be in the round playing man. To ahelp every single one of these sucks the fun out of the game because you're not playing anymore at that point, you're sorta just coping endlessly in ahelps (even if it's justified coping, it messes up the vibe of playing a videogame)

this is the reason most players don't ahelp things btw, it's not your fault or admins fault, it's just we're playing a vidya game and the instant you press F12 you are now stepping out of the videogame for an indeterminate period of time to do something very unfun and definitely not the reason you chose to spend your time on spaceman

anyways on-topic this is a terrible ided complaint, HoS did nothing wrong

Okay, so now that we're not in a policy discussion thread, we can actually talk about the matter.

I'm going to be 100% honest with you: The way I've seen you play the game and your other recommendations all scream to me that you just really want to be able to beat the piss out of people in the game for pretty much any supposed slight. "It's lame as shit that I should have to break immersion to adminhelp this" No, it's lame as shit that people keep doing it to begin with and even lamer that you want to reinforce that by giving them valid reasons to get into a combat interaction with players.

What makes your stance even more confusing is that you don't understand that all it does is make more work for us when the security player you inevitably crit whines at us about it and the situation becomes even more complex when it could've just been "Hey, stop being an asshole and actually try to RP".

I'll be real I 100% just alt-tab and play Master Duel like I said because spending 20+ minutes litigating why the sec player should be told to open his fucking mouth in an ahelp sounds like the absolute worst possible use of my time and I'd rather drag my dick through broken glass than have to do that five times a week just to get admins to enforce a minimum expectation of roleplay.

Like, I get it, the ahelp system and round-to-round nature of SS13 makes it so that it's hard to really identify long-term problematic behavioural trends that aren't explicit or major rulebreaks, so you need some kind of signal that a sec player isn't a good behavioural fit in order to actually find them, but at the same time that system being ill-suited to identifying long-term problematic behavioural trends is exactly why players don't generally ahelp this shit; they've done it a few times but the same shitty sec players are the ones repeatedly present in 70% of rounds, and spending EVERY SINGLE ROUND that it happens having to try to convince a disinterested admin that their behaviour sucks is exhausting, and no visible change occurs anyway.

I asked an admin about this in a Discord DM and they said there really isn't any effective way to report this behaviour; they admitted it doesn't really fit in an ahelp but there isn't any other meaningful venue to do so. I can link you a ticket where I spent more than HALF AN HOUR in an hour-long shift in the brig for building railings in a hallway where I had to spend forty fucking minutes convincing the admin that it was unreasonable. It was an absolutely exhausting ticket that utterly ruined an already dogshit round and I'm never going to bother with that shit ever again. The admin came around to my side in the end but it felt like I was pulling teeth and it was horribly unpleasant.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:43 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:32 pm I'll tell you what I told Sinful in their policy thread: If someone is wordlessly arresting you, adminhelp it

Dude Vekter
I'm gonna just come from the heart here and set the policies aside for a second
Ahelping over a wordless arrest even if justified feels so intensely petty and pulls you completely out of the round
I don't want to have to write a synopsis of the events that led to the situation and engage in a 20 minute back-and-forth investigation because a seccie took a fart in my face
I get that most of your rounds are observing as an admin and I appreciate you for contributing in that way
But most players that join the server want to be in the round playing man. To ahelp every single one of these sucks the fun out of the game because you're not playing anymore at that point, you're sorta just coping endlessly in ahelps (even if it's justified coping, it messes up the vibe of playing a videogame)

this is the reason most players don't ahelp things btw, it's not your fault or admins fault, it's just we're playing a vidya game and the instant you press F12 you are now stepping out of the videogame for an indeterminate period of time to do something very unfun and definitely not the reason you chose to spend your time on spaceman

anyways on-topic this is a terrible ided complaint, HoS did nothing wrong

I agree with this. I don't like ahelping issues I see unless it is something like a person running into the SM roundstart OR if I died because of it. I am just too immersed in my game! Mind you I personally don't see behaviour that ruins my gameplay experience that much anyway (probably due to my playstyle or somethin idk), so something is working out!

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:49 am Okay, so now that we're not in a policy discussion thread, we can actually talk about the matter.

I'm going to be 100% honest with you: The way I've seen you play the game and your other recommendations all scream to me that you just really want to be able to beat the piss out of people in the game for pretty much any supposed slight. "It's lame as shit that I should have to break immersion to adminhelp this" No, it's lame as shit that people keep doing it to begin with and even lamer that you want to reinforce that by giving them valid reasons to get into a combat interaction with players.

What makes your stance even more confusing is that you don't understand that all it does is make more work for us when the security player you inevitably crit whines at us about it and the situation becomes even more complex when it could've just been "Hey, stop being an asshole and actually try to RP".

I personally want be be able to retaliate against people without having to ahelp. Once upon a time somebody decided to just murder me by pushing me on like 50 glass shards. I didnt ahelp it, Instead, after getting revived, I yelled at them, and punched them a bunch in public (I think I used my baton?). Other people then deescalated it IC. There was no issue. We both ended up having great memories. No ahelps were made (from what I know). I really did think about ahelping there, but I decided to deal with it IC. I am very glad I didn't ahelp that now. If I end up being forced to ahelp every single annoying thing that happens due to admin convenience, I would end up having a less enjoyable experience.

Let me try this differently.

If the idea of adminhelping when people break the rules is so bad that you'd rather fight them over it, what can we do to improve the situation to make it easier on you guys? I firmly believe that "just handle it IC" doesn't actually do anything to fix the issue, it just passes the buck on and doesn't result in anything of value. One person ends up dead and upset, their outlook completely justified and they keep doing the same thing over and over.

E: I'm also not pointedly ignoring anyone here save for Boot, you all have valid points and I want to make this an opportunity to improve things on Manuel.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:55 am If the idea of adminhelping when people break the rules is so bad that you'd rather fight them over it, what can we do to improve the situation to make it easier on you guys? I firmly believe that "just handle it IC" doesn't actually do anything to fix the issue, it just passes the buck on and doesn't result in anything of value. One person ends up dead and upset, their outlook completely justified and they keep doing the same thing over and over.

Handling it IC doesn't fix the issue, but players shouldn't be required to fix the meta issue to be completely honest.

Having some terrible tilting shit happen to you IC, then ahelping it and getting in a 20 minute discussion only to be told "handled" or "I talked to them" (or maybe nothing at all), sucks. It's like, oh great it was handled. Well my round was still ruined by this player and they're still here so thanks I guess. Beating them up ICly and getting immediate tangible retribution may not fix the meta issue but it fixes the only issue players really care about, which is that the person who wronged them got punished for it.

Also like, it can't be a coincidence most of the people who say "just ahelp it" are admins themselves, and can see exactly what happens to the player that gets ahelped, exactly what punishment occured and feel good that whatever wrong happened was righted OOCly. The players will never have this visibility and as a result ahelping is just a lot less attractive.

Vekter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:55 am Let me try this differently.

If the idea of adminhelping when people break the rules is so bad that you'd rather fight them over it, what can we do to improve the situation to make it easier on you guys? I firmly believe that "just handle it IC" doesn't actually do anything to fix the issue, it just passes the buck on and doesn't result in anything of value. One person ends up dead and upset, their outlook completely justified and they keep doing the same thing over and over.

E: I'm also not pointedly ignoring anyone here save for Boot, you all have valid points and I want to make this an opportunity to improve things on Manuel.

It's largely that admins act pretty disinterested, and sometimes, borderline hostile unless it's some egregious shit, you constantly get the sense that you're just annoying the admin. This is especially true if you're being, like, marginally annoying and probably deserving of a minor hassle by security but they drop a fuckin anvil on you instead of just smacking you on the knuckles or hassling you then leaving you to it.

The reality is that the sec regulars who engage in this behaviour absolutely will not change unless you practically stomp your boot in their face and force them to change, as from their perspective they "won" the encounter, there's nothing wrong with their behaviour, and any admin who bwoinks them is only doing so because the person who "lost" is crying and they don't really grasp the weight of what removing a player from the setting to brig them really costs the other player, especially if the other player gets absolutely nothing in return. They regularly talk in places like Manuelcord as if they're the victims of this dynamic, not the other way around, and there won't be any meaningful self-reflection until you actually dunk on them so hard it forces them to reapproach how they play. However, this is never going to happen, because the level of admin aggression required to do this will feel unreasonably high when you have so much clear-cut stuff like maxcapping shuttles and flooding for no reason, and because each individual instance of this kind of behaviour is rarely severe enough on its own for an admin to give a shit; it's a problem of collective outcomes, not individual outcomes.

I've pretty regularly confronted a lot of the sec people who behave like this and there's literally nothing that's going to fix this other than outright forcing them to at least pretend to understand their behaviour is bad so that they can keep playing the job they like, but most of them are going to be hilaaaaariously unreceptive to the idea.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:51 pm

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:40 pm Deadass the average sec player on Manuel is explicitly not there to roleplay and will outright tell you that if you ask them on Manuelcord or whatever, it's not some kind of secret problem. Most of the regulars outright admit it, most players know it, the defense is "it's hard to RP as sec", which I figured was bullshit, so I went out of my way to play 60 hours as Manuelsec and confirmed it was bullshit.

Posting this here since it applies like it did on the manuel discord:

► Show Spoiler

TIFIFY

methinks this is a 80% coding/design problem. i know when prog tot released manuel sec culture had a culture shock because you would constantly find traitors doing minimal things, whom would be released and then call in a battlecruiser of death 15 minutes later. traitors stopped roleplaying and instead just wanted to progress. same thing with this heretic: all they were doing was progressing. progression antags were a mistake.

Sounds like you all should start maining sec on MRP and be the change you want to see.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:21 pm Sounds like you all should start maining sec on MRP and be the change you want to see.

I played it for 60 hours, hated most of the other security staff for being NRP goblins who brag about their silent batong skills, and quit.

it is midnight, and thus time to spew my incredibly questionable security opinions.

security is on the backfoot, security has to be on the backfoot, and you have to stay on the backfoot in order for the round to actually be fun. you will arrest someone you know to almost certainly be a traitor and you will ding them for contraband and whatever crimes you know for a fact they have commited, and put the contraband into storage. that PDA, Pen, and Headset aren't contraband untill they are proven to be uplinks, shut the fuck up. it doesn't matter if you know for a fact that they'll come back later, them coming back later is a good thing. you will die, you will die painfully, and it will have happened because you gave them mercy, and that will be fine.

that's all I have to say.

Boris wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:19 pm it is midnight, and thus time to spew my incredibly questionable security opinions.

security is on the backfoot, security has to be on the backfoot, and you have to stay on the backfoot in order for the round to actually be fun. you will arrest someone you know to almost certainly be a traitor and you will ding them for contraband and whatever crimes you know for a fact they have commited, and put the contraband into storage. that PDA, Pen, and Headset aren't contraband untill they are proven to be uplinks, shut the fuck up. it doesn't matter if you know for a fact that they'll come back later, them coming back later is a good thing. you will die, you will die painfully, and it will have happened because you gave them mercy, and that will be fine.

that's all I have to say.

This is a good take and I will die on the hill that this is a good take.

Redshirts die first.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:44 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:21 pm Sounds like you all should start maining sec on MRP and be the change you want to see.

I played it for 60 hours, hated most of the other security staff for being NRP goblins who brag about their silent batong skills, and quit.

Ah but if two of you started maining sec and formed your own metagang, think then of the possibilities.

I remember once at roundstart some shitsec was at HoP line with the captain. He asked for something (I think it was more access), cap refused and then he immediately barged into the office and assaulted the captain. Long story short, cap robusted his ass, got arrested and subsequently demoted, all the while making a tantrum like a pissbaby excusing his actions.

This happened on Manuel btw, so yeah I do believe there is a problem with powertripping secmains on MRP.