/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?p=681940#p681940



I dunno, I could go either way on this

these are the thread titles i like to see

if you torture someone they should be able to round remove you after IMO

im a little conflicted on how i feel about this but i wont elaborate - i instead implore you to make wild accusations and assumptions on my thoughts

kinnebian wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:53 am im a little conflicted on how i feel about this but i wont elaborate - i instead implore you to make wild accusations and assumptions on my thoughts

You think the admin should have instead banned the captain trying to de escalate the situation. We dont need that kind of saneness around here. Its valid or nothin

Every player except the captain is unfathomably based here.
The HOP who employs creative punishment and ignores a dumbass captain's order, the player who enacts revenge on his captor, and the warden who supports a little... uh... extralegal justice.
Captains who order people to release criminals already receiving mild punishments and let them go unpunished instead deserve to be lynched.

On another note, this note is factually wrong, as he did not break out of the gulag, but rather completed his sentence.

I'd like to see clarification on whether "kill" in the ruling means "kill and revive" or "kill and round remove".

SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:02 am You think the admin should have instead banned the captain trying to de escalate the situation.

This but unironically. He didn't try to "de-escalate", he took the greytider's side and ordered the HoP to release someone who had committed crimes with no punishment. Absolute condom behaviour, blatant abuse of his authority.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:16 am Captains who order people to release criminals already receiving mild punishments and let them go unpunished instead deserve to be lynched.

Is it torture or is it mild punishment?

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:20 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:16 am Captains who order people to release criminals already receiving mild punishments and let them go unpunished instead deserve to be lynched.

Is it torture or is it mild punishment?

It's both. This man engaged in several major (red) crimes such as trespassing into a restricted area and several counts of theft.
Depending on the length of time for which he was paraded around, it could have been 100% appropriate or it could've been overkill.
Throwing him into the gulag afterwards, however, was undeniably overkill.

At the point the bozo captain came in, though, all he'd done is deal a little damage. That's mild.

Local hop refuses to listen to captain, confused why it might hurt them in the future. Common hop L, note should be removed

i would remove the note but mostly because it's very logical that cruel and unusual punishment -> the person you did it on tries to kill you. i dunno, the logs could definitely change my mind

THE HOP IS ZYBWIVCZ

I stand with Sapra.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:36 am if you torture someone they should be able to round remove you after IMO

You're the one that taught me about kneecapping in lieu of prison sentences. I found them to be a nice deterrent.

It's just a note. Saprasm's brilliant ahelp replies are good enough that I'd remove the note though.

How do you kneecap people?

" for the next 7-12? minutes, i am wrought around on this man's back, with a pig mask laid on my face to prevent proper speech"

Absolutely based. Based warden. Based gulaggee. Can't believe this guy was given a note. Free my man.

Secbanned Zyb playing HoPcurity and gulagging someone.

Love to see it.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:41 am i would remove the note but mostly because it's very logical that cruel and unusual punishment -> the person you did it on tries to kill you. i dunno, the logs could definitely change my mind

I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY YOU BASTARD.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:00 am Secbanned Zyb playing HoPcurity and gulagging someone.

Love to see it.

Your log guide really helped me on this, this was way more than I was expecting and I still think I didn't get all of it.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:00 am Secbanned Zyb playing HoPcurity and gulagging someone.

Love to see it.

He also hunts traitors as AI while linetoeing Asimov :^)

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:11 am

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:00 am Secbanned Zyb playing HoPcurity and gulagging someone.

Love to see it.

He also hunts traitors as AI while linetoeing Asimov :^)

Time to silicon ban zyb

This is one of those cases where it's just safe to ban everyone involved.
The hop, the captain, the appealant, everyone who posted on the ban thread, everyone who posted here too. This includes me. Go ahead, wear the polish on that hammer.

Free this gamer immediately

You need to follow the blue clues to solve the riddle.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:19 pm You need to follow the blue clues to solve the riddle.

Mr bones, I dont feel like solving the riddle

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:19 pm You need to follow the blue clues to solve the riddle.

MIS TUR BOOOOOOOOOOOONES

this is the advantage passing charisma checks in ss13 can grant you btw

[2023-04-21 05:33:59.828] EMOTE: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) points at Is-The-Law (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:00.640] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "you" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:01.254] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "warden" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:08.143] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "the knuckledragger of a hop has taken all my shit" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:11.050] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "left me naked" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:14.408] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "drainedme of my shit" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:18.361] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "and now i am going to kill him" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:23.056] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "because he is being a monumental tub of lard" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:26.302] SAY: Dethel/(Is-The-Law) "Ok" (Brig Control (107,162,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:27.739] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "will you stop me on my righteous quest" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:31.387] SAY: Dethel/(Is-The-Law) "do you want a gun for that?" (Brig Control (107,162,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:34.002] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "absolutely" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:35.841] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "shotgun" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))

hopcurity is cringe, HOP is the head of service and ignoring your alvin assistants and barry bartenders to groom the asshairs of security should be considered dereliction of duty.

seems like an IC issue though

Let's just say the person who got fucked had a good case they could have brought to admins but instead handled it ICly and indeed successfully handled it

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:02 pm this is the advantage passing charisma checks in ss13 can grant you btw

[2023-04-21 05:33:59.828] EMOTE: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) points at Is-The-Law (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:00.640] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "you" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:01.254] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "warden" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:08.143] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "the knuckledragger of a hop has taken all my shit" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:11.050] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "left me naked" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:14.408] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "drainedme of my shit" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:18.361] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "and now i am going to kill him" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:23.056] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "because he is being a monumental tub of lard" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:26.302] SAY: Dethel/(Is-The-Law) "Ok" (Brig Control (107,162,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:27.739] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "will you stop me on my righteous quest" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:31.387] SAY: Dethel/(Is-The-Law) "do you want a gun for that?" (Brig Control (107,162,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:34.002] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "absolutely" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))
[2023-04-21 05:34:35.841] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "shotgun" (Fore Primary Hallway (108,159,2))

THIS IS SO GODDAMN BASED OMG

Should have adminhelped this and I'm sure an admin would have yeeted the HoP off command for a while instead

Fatal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:35 pm Should have adminhelped this

Is it a valid ahelp? yes
but was it valid to solve ic instead of ooc? also yes

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:40 pm

Fatal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:35 pm Should have adminhelped this

Is it a valid ahelp? yes
but was it valid to solve ic instead of ooc? also yes

Yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:40 pm

Fatal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:35 pm Should have adminhelped this

Is it a valid ahelp? yes
but was it valid to solve ic instead of ooc? also yes

So true, bestie!!

Fatal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:35 pm Should have adminhelped this

ahelping every shitter for things you are confident you can solve ICly is not fun, and admins should be able to tell when an issue is just IC escalation done right

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:16 am Every player except the captain is unfathomably based here.

Captains who order people to release criminals already receiving mild punishments and let them go unpunished instead deserve to be lynched.

This but unironically. He didn't try to "de-escalate", he took the greytider's side and ordered the HoP to release someone who had committed crimes with no punishment. Absolute condom behaviour, blatant abuse of his authority.

Except for the parts where:
A) The HoP is not security, it isn't their job to decide peoples' punishment(or arrest them in the first place- the telebaton is there for self-defense!).
B) Saprasam had already served somewhere around the maximum possible brig timer sentence while being paraded around on the HoP's back
C) The captain is absolutely within his right to overrule security in regards to them overpunishing people; in fact, security oversight is part of his job as "the guy who makes sure everything is running smoothly and people aren't doing things NT would write in red ink on an inspection paper". Doubly so for HoPs pretending to be security and making it their job to torture someone for hopping a desk that he left open.
D) The HoP is Zybwivcz. Some history on this guy: he's the closest I've ever seen to a rule 12 server ban because he would run around wordlessly validhunting as security. He typically had more words in his first appeal/admin complaint post than he said in the round itself. He called admins on a cyborg who dunked him after he changed their laws to a set that didn't protect him, then tried to get policy changed to protect him in the future. He called admins on a guy who turned his arrest on him instead of interacting with them in-character, then took it to the admin complaints forum when they didn't go his way. In fact, he has a habit of taking things to the forums when he loses. Also, he exclusively randomnames to avoid having his nasty reputation affect him mid-round.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:16 am Every player except the captain is unfathomably based here.

Captains who order people to release criminals already receiving mild punishments and let them go unpunished instead deserve to be lynched.

This but unironically. He didn't try to "de-escalate", he took the greytider's side and ordered the HoP to release someone who had committed crimes with no punishment. Absolute condom behaviour, blatant abuse of his authority.

Snip

Humoring ekat's armchair police larping isn't a good way to spend your time.

Fatal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:35 pm Should have adminhelped this and I'm sure an admin would have yeeted the HoP off command for a while instead

And why do you think this would have been preferable? It's much more satisfying to dish out justice with your own hands. This solution was better for both players. One got his revenge, and the other didn't get banned.+

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm The HoP is not security, it isn't their job to decide peoples' punishment(or arrest them in the first place- the telebaton is there for self-defense!).

Correct but irrelevant, as rule 4 is king. Policing crimes against other people is security's job. However, taking action against people who transgress against you is allowed.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm Saprasam had already served somewhere around the maximum possible brig timer sentence while being paraded around on the HoP's back

Correct, and I agree. This is why I said giving him a gulag sentence was overkill. The captain's intervention was before even the parade, though, at which point the sentence being given was well deserved.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm The captain is absolutely within his right to overrule security in regards to them overpunishing people; in fact, security oversight is part of his job as "the guy who makes sure everything is running smoothly and people aren't doing things NT would write in red ink on an inspection paper". Doubly so for HoPs pretending to be security and making it their job to torture someone for hopping a desk that he left open.

This was not a case of "overpunishing" when the captain came in. Quite the contrary. It only became that later.
It is different to overrule a blatantly excessive sentence as the HoS, the warden or even the captain, and to take someone who committed two or three major crimes and order him released with no brig time with no good reason.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm The HoP is Zybwivcz. Some history on this guy: he's the closest I've ever seen to a rule 12 server ban because he would run around wordlessly validhunting as security. He typically had more words in his first appeal/admin complaint post than he said in the round itself. He called admins on a cyborg who dunked him after he changed their laws to a set that didn't protect him, then tried to get policy changed to protect him in the future. He called admins on a guy who turned his arrest on him instead of interacting with them in-character, then took it to the admin complaints forum when they didn't go his way. In fact, he has a habit of taking things to the forums when he loses. Also, he exclusively randomnames to avoid having his nasty reputation affect him mid-round.

Sounds like a sore loser.

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:12 pm Humoring ekat's armchair police larping isn't a good way to spend your time.

You're just jealous of my red jumpsuit.

cap's orders are final if he doesn't want the hop playing stanford assistant experiment thats kinda just how it goes

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:22 pm cap's orders are final if he doesn't want the hop playing stanford assistant experiment thats kinda just how it goes

Disobeying orders is an IC issue. Head of staff authority, as of current policy, is not enforced by admins. Captain's orders are only as final as his combat and persuasion skills can make them.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:24 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:22 pm cap's orders are final if he doesn't want the hop playing stanford assistant experiment thats kinda just how it goes

Captain's orders are only as final as his combat and persuasion skills can make them.

On the other hand, fighting over each and every last order is both annoying and destroys the intended collective cooperation. If you crit someone over a captain order they didn't follow, then heal them up, they might as well just go back to disobeying you but harder now that you crit them, or worse, now try to de-captain you
>just don't make a demand i don't agree with
then there's no authority

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:29 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:24 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:22 pm cap's orders are final if he doesn't want the hop playing stanford assistant experiment thats kinda just how it goes

Captain's orders are only as final as his combat and persuasion skills can make them.

On the other hand, fighting over each and every last order is both annoying and destroys the intended collective cooperation. If you crit someone over a captain order they didn't follow, then heal them up, they might as well just go back to disobeying you but harder now that you crit them, or worse, now try to de-captain you
>just don't make a demand i don't agree with
then there's no authority

Disobeying retarded captains is our moral duty. The only head with real authority is the Head of Security - and even then, only sometimes.

Players should feel empowered to deal with stuff ic if they want, sometimes it makes the whole story of everything flow so fucking smoothly.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:36 pm Players should feel empowered to deal with stuff ic if they want, sometimes it makes the whole story of everything flow so fucking smoothly.

thats easy to say when youre a tiger wearing a cap..

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:36 pm Disobeying retarded captains is our moral duty. The only head with real authority is the Head of Security - and even then, only sometimes.

How do we increase head of staff authority?

Armhulen wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:39 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:36 pm Disobeying retarded captains is our moral duty. The only head with real authority is the Head of Security - and even then, only sometimes.

How do we increase head of staff authority?

We don't. Didn't we have a vote over this? Which side won?

We did have a poll but I can't find the results anywhere, not even on the bus.
I did find this headmin decision, though: viewtopic.php?p=681655#p681655

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:12 pm Humoring ekat's armchair police larping isn't a good way to spend your time.

I'm not sure what it is, but the second I see 'zybwivcz' in any sort of administrative-adjacent thing, my vision turns red and-

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:14 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm The HoP is not security, it isn't their job to decide peoples' punishment(or arrest them in the first place- the telebaton is there for self-defense!).

Correct but irrelevant, as rule 4 is king. Policing crimes against other people is security's job. However, taking action against people who transgress against you is allowed.

Rule 4 IS king, but the actions the HoP took toe the line of rule 1, even against an antagonist. Forcing a player to not play the game, but giving them a hope to, for upwards of 15-20 minutes(IIRC, 100 points = 1 minute in the gulag) is sadism. People arguably play SS13 to have fun, not to be somebody else's torture puppet.

Also, stealing access from the HoP's office isn't an inherently antagonistic act, as everyone who isn't the captain wants more access to the station and it doesn't reveal anything other than personal greed. It does, however, warrant a search at minimum.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:39 pm The captain is absolutely within his right to overrule security in regards to them overpunishing people; in fact, security oversight is part of his job as "the guy who makes sure everything is running smoothly and people aren't doing things NT would write in red ink on an inspection paper". Doubly so for HoPs pretending to be security and making it their job to torture someone for hopping a desk that he left open.

This was not a case of "overpunishing" when the captain came in. Quite the contrary. It only became that later.
It is different to overrule a blatantly excessive sentence as the HoS, the warden or even the captain, and to take someone who committed two or three major crimes and order him released with no brig time with no good reason.

This is a fair point to make. I wasn't aware the captain intervened that early.

Sounds like a sore loser.

Not just a sore loser, a complete no-fun ass who physically embodies everything people call 'shitsec'. I'm a sore loser; I'll bitch to no end in deadchat when I die and ahelp if it was random and they didn't kill me with antagonist gear(then the admins don't have to delay round-end if I see they weren't on the report). If you are having fun that in any way breaches space law, he WILL get in your way.

Let me put it this way: the person he failed to arrest was breaking into this empty sci room behind science on Meta. Because "they could be a cultist or heretic or something". This room: which I don't think exists anymore, but had nothing valuable in it aside from the space the guy was using for a project.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:36 pm Disobeying retarded captains is our moral duty. The only head with real authority is the Head of Security - and even then, only sometimes.

The way it works is that every head only has as much authority as the person below them allows them to have, which is enforced by their telebaton and other gear. In some departments, this has a huge impact; the QM is the undisputed ruler of cargo, for what it is. The RD... not so much, the roboticists start with flashes, and any scientist easily accesses the supplies for stunprods. You get the idea.
The HoS has less actual authority than the captain; ALL of his direct subordinates can take him down with two clicks roundstart, and the warden even has an advantage over him in close combat. The captain beats all other heads with a massive gear advantage, and ties with the HoS at worst.

The other side of this is that, hilariously, disobeying a direct order from the captain could be labeled as 'Insubordination', 'Dereliction of Duty', or 'Mutiny' under space law depending on the importance of the order and how petty the captain wants to be. A head of security who ignores his own rules when it's convenient isn't worthy of the position.

yes yes, our heads of staff are a big fuckin joke because they hold absolutely no power, but look at that wonderful appeal resolution

I would give a argument and get into a posting contest with ekat, but I’m a Manuel admin so my opinion is officially invalidated.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:03 pm The way it works is that every head only has as much authority as the person below them allows them to have (...) The HoS has less actual authority than the captain; ALL of his direct subordinates can take him down with two clicks roundstart, and the warden even has an advantage over him in close combat. The captain beats all other heads with a massive gear advantage, and ties with the HoS at worst.

This ends up not being true in part because of what you say at the start, and in part because of security metaprotections. There's a higher level of expectation for security not abusing its superior gear to blatantly self-antag, and this includes attacking your own head randomly. In addition, security players generally understand that security forms a team and that we should be looking out for each other. This is compounded by the fact that security officers cannot be antagonists at round start, adding to that trust and sense of being on the same team. There are exceptions and problematic players, but this is the general rule in my experience. It might also have to do with the (correct) understanding that security is a paramilitary force, which makes its hierarchy more relevant for RP than in other departments.

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:02 pm I would give a argument and get into a posting contest with ekat, but I’m a Manuel admin so my opinion is officially invalidated.

Haha he said a funny.
It might actually be interesting to see how opinions differ between LRP and MRP players, and what these players want on their respective servers.
What wouldn't be fun is trying to force MRP ideas on LRP, and probably vice-versa for Manuel players, but we can have a discussion with the understanding that there are different cultures in these servers.

>would you like a gun for that

my sides

ekaterina wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:02 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:03 pm The way it works is that every head only has as much authority as the person below them allows them to have (...) The HoS has less actual authority than the captain; ALL of his direct subordinates can take him down with two clicks roundstart, and the warden even has an advantage over him in close combat. The captain beats all other heads with a massive gear advantage, and ties with the HoS at worst.

This ends up not being true in part because of what you say at the start, and in part because of security metaprotections. There's a higher level of expectation for security not abusing its superior gear to blatantly self-antag, and this includes attacking your own head randomly. In addition, security players generally understand that security forms a team and that we should be looking out for each other. This is compounded by the fact that security officers cannot be antagonists at round start, adding to that trust and sense of being on the same team. There are exceptions and problematic players, but this is the general rule in my experience. It might also have to do with the (correct) understanding that security is a paramilitary force, which makes its hierarchy more relevant for RP than in other departments.

The point was that the HoS, in reality, has less authority than the captain does because at any point one of the people he has that authority over can click him twice with the stun baton that they start the round with and he loses all of it. No amount of departmental unity, actual or imagined, will change that. It takes vastly more effort for any non-security role to overthrow the captain than it takes for any security officer to overthrow the head of security. The officers are not obligated to respect the HoS out of gear, and are fully capable of overriding his decisions if they want to.
The Captain also gets the same metaprotections, inability to be antagonists, and higher expectations. The only difference is that you seem to arbitrarily justify disobeying the captain. They should, in theory, be working with and be almost as reliant on the security team as the HoS is.