/tg/Station 13

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/75039
Rip kilo, I never really liked you so #ripbozo

I'm a kilo enjoyer but we can let the new kids have a chance

It's going to be a real shame to lose Kilo for lowpop rounds. A solid 6-8 hours every day the serverpop goes below 20. Lots of players can only play at these times, and Kilo was perfect for promoting interactions with so few crewmembers. No other map satisfies that need quite as well.

I would be curious if maptainers genuinely think it's worth losing Kilo for Birdshot.

There's more than one quite detailed explanations as to why kilo was specifically chosen in the PR, including the opening body.

I really dislike Kilo, but birdshot somehow manages to be uglier.
At least it doesn't have maintenance monsters, from what I can tell.

Ditch Deltastation instead. I have no good reasoning for this aside from personal preference but you know I am right.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:06 pm There's more than one quite detailed explanations as to why kilo was specifically chosen in the PR, including the opening body.

There really isn't. I copy pasted the entire thing and replaced kilo with meta. No arguments in the pr body are specific to kilo.

The text made sense but there's a reply that makes even more sense. Remove Icebox instead of Kilo.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:43 pm The text made sense but there's a reply that makes even more sense. Remove Icebox instead of Kilo.

Icebox is planned to be replaced by chilled station, but yeah icebox sucks

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:06 pm There's more than one quite detailed explanations as to why kilo was specifically chosen in the PR, including the opening body.

Small map hard to maintain... More passionate maintainer on Birdshot.

But man, Kilo is just so much better designed than Birdshot. And it fills the role of lowpop better. At the very least it would've been nice to give Birdshot more work before it replaces a fully functional map. It's missing critical features, in fact you can't even create custom engine setups because it doesn't have an atmos-to-SM pipe. Two whole roundstart gas chambers are just... Gone from atmos, nonexistent. You gotta use cans which simply isn't enough for actual atmospherics gasmixing.

I just don't like how messy and beat-up Birdshot looks. It's almost a derelict.
I dislike Kilo, but replacing it with something that's harder to look at isn't the way.

I mean that's literally the entire gimmick of birdshot, it's supposed to look like a derelict

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:55 pm I mean that's literally the entire gimmick of birdshot, it's supposed to look like a derelict

Yeah, and it could DEFINITELY work. It has potential. I really really want to like Birdshot. But man, my round quality is so drastically lower on Birdshot than other maps because of how much is just... Missing from it.

Birdshot isn't really ready for rotation.

Kilo has however definitely had its chance to be liked. It's shit, easily the worst map.

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:55 pm I mean that's literally the entire gimmick of birdshot, it's supposed to look like a derelict

"this map is designed to look bad." is not a good gimmick.

It's funny, the fact that kilo is "hard to look at" and "derelict" are reasons people hated the map and wanted it gone, and now those complaints are being sent to birdshot. I think holding judgement until "NEW BAD" wears off is smart. Birdshot's been testmerged for at least a month, has active developers, and it's got room to expand. Let him cook.

"remove kilo!!"

*a finger on the monkey paw curls*

wait kilo has been around for nearly 3 and a half years?
has it really been that long already

Cheshify wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:04 pm It's funny, the fact that kilo is "hard to look at" and "derelict" are reasons people hated the map and wanted it gone, and now those complaints are being sent to birdshot. I think holding judgement until "NEW BAD" wears off is smart. Birdshot's been testmerged for at least a month, has active developers, and it's got room to expand. Let him cook.

I still think Kilo doesn't look great. Receiving something worse to compare it to does make me hate it a little less, for what it's worth.

can we just return to pubby

day 134 of birdshot still not having a functional gulag simply because prisoner IDs were never added

why does everyone complain about the issues a map has in every single channel other than an issue report

what if they made a map that was an asthetically pleasing derelict

i was sat at home eating burrijto when phone was ring
“kilo is kill”
no

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:59 pm

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:55 pm I mean that's literally the entire gimmick of birdshot, it's supposed to look like a derelict

Yeah, and it could DEFINITELY work. It has potential. I really really want to like Birdshot. But man, my round quality is so drastically lower on Birdshot than other maps because of how much is just... Missing from it.

Bro you should map some changes to make Birdshot work!

But it's in PR, and I got no clue how to get it working.

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:41 pm why does everyone complain about the issues a map has in every single channel other than an issue report

Because I generally see issue reports as being for bugs instead of aesthetic opinions.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:30 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:41 pm why does everyone complain about the issues a map has in every single channel other than an issue report

Because I generally see issue reports as being for bugs instead of aesthetic opinions.

there should be a forum thread for aesthetic opinions. you could also learn how to map and fix it too. up to you player

I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:41 pm I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

Core design is never "be unenjoyable" which means there's always improvements you could make

The next map that needs to go is Delta. It's nearly identical to Meta, but is generally just far less well-done. (Nothing against you Okand, we're still friends... right?)

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:41 pm I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted. this is an open-source project and people do not retain final authority forever (their opinions will be held into account of course), but if a failing is demonstrated and acted upon i don't see why it should not be merged.

i.e.: northstar not having ruins by design is okay because ruins aren't a core function of the game (and should be de-emphasized). however not having features that you need to complete core functions of the base game in a map can be demonstrated to be a failing and should be acted upon.

BLOW UP DELTA SEND IT INTO THE SUN SPAWN NUKIE TEAMS TO WIPE OUT DELTA OBLITERATE DELTA USING BLOBS TEAR DELTA IN HALF USING NARSIE

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:33 pm BLOW UP DELTA SEND IT INTO THE SUN SPAWN NUKIE TEAMS TO WIPE OUT DELTA OBLITERATE DELTA USING BLOBS TEAR DELTA IN HALF USING NARSIE

This guy gets it

Bawhoppennn wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:34 pm

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:33 pm BLOW UP DELTA SEND IT INTO THE SUN SPAWN NUKIE TEAMS TO WIPE OUT DELTA OBLITERATE DELTA USING BLOBS TEAR DELTA IN HALF USING NARSIE

This guy gets it

Yeah delta has always rubbed me the wrong way with how close together and visible everything is despite being a highpop map. Getting away with murder is nearly impossible because the map is designed very similar to kilo with how easy it is to keep track of everyone, while also having 70 players so you dont really need it. I'm hoping that Chilled can take its place once that is finally ready for merge.

Me when they open a delta removal and everyone who likes delta complains instead

Everyone is gonna complain no matter what, you know that already oranges

Stuff happens on birdshit, meta, delta, tram
Nothing happens on Icebox, Northstar, and whatever map im forgetting
stuff happened on kilo so the swap out is fine
^haiku

also delta was way worse before the maintenance rework now its only the northern maintenance sections which suck, kilo had good maints outside of the mob spawns

i'm kind of confused why they are removing two of the smallest maps, one of which only shows up on lowpop rounds, with much bigger ones?

why remove kilo and icebox and all?

do you not WANT players in a game to interact with each other?

did i miss a coder/maintainer/mapper explaining why this makes sense somewhere?
im mostly just here complaining because i'm really upset about icebox getting the boot eventually

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:36 pm did i miss a coder/maintainer/mapper explaining why this makes sense somewhere?

Check out the pr's "Why it's good for the game" section

Genuinely why? what map is better for 20ish people rounds than Kilo? Also how many gimmicky high pop maps do we really need at once? Ice+Tram+Bird+North on top of the existing "normal" meta/delta maps.

HeyHey wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:51 pm Genuinely why?

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:36 pm why remove kilo

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:01 pm

HeyHey wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:51 pm Genuinely why?

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:36 pm why remove kilo

i mean.. its fine that mappers have an interest in bird shot and not kilo.. but.. hows that good for the actual "game" part?

whats the point of playing on a map where you realistically arent going to see anyone?
i played on northstar a couple times now, fantastic map, love it, but there were only like 20 people on and i barely saw anyone

i'm not even a huge big fan of kilo, but i always appreciated it for forcing people to cluster sometimes

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:01 pm

HeyHey wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:51 pm Genuinely why?

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:36 pm why remove kilo

image

He wrote all of that just to give like a single actual argument. I already said this earlier in this thread, that is not enough of an argument to remove kilo specifically. If we have a compact map designed for lowpop, then yea its gonna be harder to change it but having that kind of map is necessary. Even though more players play highpop, lowpop still exists and we have to have a map for it. The same argument also to meta and delta, both have received very little maintenance out of the bare minimum. But obviously we aren't going to remove either of those two.

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:27 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:41 pm I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted.

this is such an insanely tedious ask of someone who doesn’t even know how to map to begin with. map changes and “prove” them over several months? how do you even prove something to be “nonfunctional”? it’s not like things are just nonworking, it’s more like the design just lends itself to them breaking often or creating unpleasant game experiences for various reasons (atmos, powergrid, etc), and suggesting a random player make a PR to change the design (if they could even do that to begin with), something which is subjective and needs to be “proven” as better somehow, is completely impractical

That's kind of a bummer that we're losing maps. I liked Kilo for the low-pop rounds, though at this point, I don't even play low-pop that much anymore since it always results in a traitor just sweeping the station (plus the station begins to be non-functional at sub-25~ish pop) I see this as essentially them washing their hands of even trying to have lowpop be functional. YOU WILL ONLY PLAY PEAKPOP HOURS

Also bummed to see that Icebox is going to get replaced whenever the other icemoon station is done. I actually kind of liked Icebox besides the z-level thing. (and blobs always going to the meta spot to win)

Also, I understand that birdbox is ironically supposed to be a piece of shit map, but that doesn't mean that it isn't an absolute shit map to be on. Good fucking lord, I have never seen a station where I hated nearly every single department and the stuff it starts with. It's honestly impressive. At least the dinning room looks nice, I guess.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:46 pm

san7890 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 9:27 pm

datorangebottle wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 8:41 pm I'm current running off of the (pretty logical, imo) assumption that if I try to make changes to the map that conflict with its core design(being a barely functional derelict) they'll just get stopped. I'd rather not waste my time and effort on that.

i hope you understand that if you can prove that the core design is non-functional (probably after a few months) and demonstrate a better solution that it can be pre-empted.

this is such an insanely tedious ask of someone who doesn’t even know how to map to begin with. map changes and “prove” them over several months? how do you even prove something to be “nonfunctional”? it’s not like things are just nonworking, it’s more like the design just lends itself to them breaking often or creating unpleasant game experiences for various reasons (atmos, powergrid, etc), and suggesting a random player make a PR to change the design (if they could even do that to begin with) is completely impractical

this entire game is random players with zero experience (other than general knowledge of how code works, artistic skills - nothing really specific to DM though) trying to make a difference, as such i do not understand your point what-so-ever. they actually realized they cared about something rather than rant about it in peanuts or whatever. it is not impractical or tedious at all because that is how literally everyone who contributes has started or will invariably end up. things will only happen of your volition if you choose to make it happen, that is the universal constant. otherwise you are left in the dust.

PR justification is not some esoteric art either, you just need to show that you have thought about it or understand the game to a point where you understand that something is intuitively wrong and convince a maintainer (and more importantly: everyone else) that you're in the right. if they don't agree they're required to explain why. if your PR gets closed: you can try another way of balancing it, figure out a better way of proving your point to someone else in the future, or just move on with your life. play bloons or scroll twitter or something if you really can't tolerate a map man. the reason why i say "demonstrate impracticality" is because you are expected to defend your PR in some way, and if you start off strong, you'll end up strong. you can read more on this here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... st-process and here https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ur-changes

EDIT: I stumbled across this while reading older replies in coding general:





This was a while ago, but this is someone who I have never heard of putting in the time over something they care about and formatting their data to illustrate a point as to why they didn't agree with a PR. people care a lot about these things and are willing to go through tedium to prove a point.

If I had a dollar for the the amount of times I've seen someone construct a well thought out argument just to see "no" as a response, I'd be able to buy an island. Maintainers huff each others farts and scream at the outsiders when they dare say anything that isn't high praises.

The mining PR was peak fart huffing. They asked experienced miners their opinions on something, then ignored them when they said that it was a shit idea, only to finally capitulate when oranges (I think) of all people agreed to the compromise solution.

BlueMemesauce wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:24 pm He wrote all of that just to give like a single actual argument. I already said this earlier in this thread, that is not enough of an argument to remove kilo specifically.

Clearly reality disagrees with you

you may not agree with the reasons given, but they are the reasons, and they're acceptable to the headcoders.

I suggest people just get over it, it's not the end of the world.

i have yet to see anyone provide an argument about why taking out a small map designed to push a low pop amount of players together and replacing it with a much larger one is good for the game

I mean, i honestly love all the maps (tram is questionable), and appreciate the what-must-be HUGE amount of time and effort in making and maintaining them, but like, if you want to axe a map that had a very specific purpose, at least replace it with a map that fills the same role, it doesnt take an experienced game designer to know that.

is there some kind of limit on maps we can have in rotation? why not just add birdshot in?