/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 2:24 am**

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34021

Honestly, I got nothing for the title, I just wanted to make fun of the recent increasing trend of people demanding headmin review before they've even tried speaking to the admin in question.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 3:02 am**

Slippery slope thinking the banning admin won't change their mind.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:02 am**

The reason it's so funny to me is that every time, the Headmins just go "Talk to the banning admin first", all it really does is just make you look bad.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:07 am**

WHY IS IT NOT LOCAL LIZARD

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:31 am**

calling for a headmin review right off the bat for a "hey can you tone this down please" note is deranged

their last appeal doesn't exactly inspire the feeling that this note will be removed either

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:36 am**

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 4:07 am WHY IS IT NOT LOCAL LIZARD

What do you mean, it says it right there.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 11:39 am**

Muffin you need to learn some chill. I love seeing you ingame and don't want you to get perma'd

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 12:07 pm**

Chadley wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:02 am Slippery slope thinking the banning admin won't change their mind.

This bit is truly bizarre if you can look behind the curtain, in the ahelp the admin makes it abundantly clear they're happy to discuss the note and it's wording. I don't know where they got the idea that "the admin made it clear they don't care to chance their mind."

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 12:11 pm**

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 12:07 pm
Chadley wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:02 am Slippery slope thinking the banning admin won't change their mind.
This bit is truly bizarre if you can look behind the curtain, in the ahelp the admin makes it abundantly clear they're happy to discuss the note and it's wording. I don't know where they got the idea that "the admin made it clear they don't care to chance their mind."

Translation: "The admin won't remove the note"

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 12:58 pm**

Headmin review speedrun

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 1:47 pm**

conrad wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 12:58 pm Headmin review speedrun

Headmin Review

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 1:51 pm**

i think that people are tempted to immediately ask for a headmin review because we've had cases where they argued for a few days and asked for a headmin review and it was untouched until the day before the term was up

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 3:36 pm**

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 1:47 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 12:58 pm Headmin review speedrun
Headmin Review

Headmin Review

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 3:48 pm**

Call me toxic but I think if your appeal post immediately asks for a headmin review it should be denied on principle

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 3:50 pm**

I’m willing to hear Muffin’s thoughts, I don’t want to send it to a headmin, please don’t refer things to a headmin before I can even say anything.

Sorry for posting here, I think I might get back luck for posting in my own thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 3:50 pm**

Headmin Review

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:24 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:50 pm I’m willing to hear Muffin’s thoughts, I don’t want to send it to a headmin, please don’t refer things to a headmin before I can even say anything.

Sorry for posting here, I think I might get back luck for posting in my own thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts.

I will smash mirrors for you to get your luck stat back up dont worry

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 4:31 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 4:24 pm
Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 3:50 pm I’m willing to hear Muffin’s thoughts, I don’t want to send it to a headmin, please don’t refer things to a headmin before I can even say anything.

Sorry for posting here, I think I might get back luck for posting in my own thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I will smash mirrors for you to get your luck stat back up dont worry

POV: you put all your points in CHARISMA and now you have zero LUCK

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 6:35 pm**

Headmin review

The peanut titles game is off the charts. Bravo.

Perhaps my request for a headmin review was a tad premature.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2023 9:40 pm**

6.5/10 peanut title

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 10:56 am**

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:40 pm 6.5/10 peanut title

2/10 peanut scoring.

"I wish to appeal to higher standards of peanut thread naming".

Improve, friend. Improve.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 11:06 am**

conrad wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 10:56 am
WineAllWine wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 9:40 pm 6.5/10 peanut title
2/10 peanut scoring.

"I wish to appeal to higher standards of peanut thread naming".

Improve, friend. Improve.

Headmin review

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 3:08 pm**

Any Headmins here? We need a headmin to deal with this situation.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 4:28 pm**

I'm glad things are being resolved amicably.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 2:24 am Honestly, I got nothing for the title, I just wanted to make fun of the recent increasing trend of people demanding headmin review before they've even tried speaking to the admin in question.

Headmin review.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: I genuinely tried to enforce MRP rules, and give additional reminders for people that seem to be not aware that they exist. Turns out, this doesn’t seem to deserve a note at all, given the circumstances.

THEN REMOVE THE FUCKING NOTE!

Christ ALMIGHTY. Why's it like pulling teeth? No one cares about your good-faith attempt to enforce the rules, you don't need to keep the note there as some bizarre way of justifying yourself. Is it a pride or an ego thing admins have, where if you apply a note or drag someone through the appeals process, you feel you need to be in the right or else you've wasted their time?

And no this doesn't read as a "documentation thing." It reads as a "user fucked up and validhunted" thing.

Was asked to review MRP Rule 4 about validhunting on MRP servers.

But even though it was admitted that's not what happened, it's there to ensure admins don't see a... "gap of information"? What does that even mean? What the HELL is going on over in Manuel.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm**

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm THEN REMOVE THE FUCKING NOTE!

Allow me to respond to your post (sorry peanut thread gods).

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm Christ ALMIGHTY. Why's it like pulling teeth? No one cares about your good-faith attempt to enforce the rules, you don't need to keep the note there as some bizarre way of justifying yourself. Is it a pride or an ego thing admins have, where if you apply a note or drag someone through the appeals process, you feel you need to be in the right or else you've wasted their time?

The note… isn’t there to justify me. It’s there to let the admins know that the note existed, but was appealed and that the player was in the right. If anything, it only embarrasses me by leaving my mistake there for other admins to read. This is good. This enknowledges my mistake, not the players. This isn’t some “fuck this I’m the admin” type of situation, Sinful, this is more of a “hey, I screwed up, so I’m removing the pressure off from you and admitting my mistake”. The note remains because I want to be reminded of my mistake.

Notes aren’t bans. Notes are just reminders, IMO. If this was a ban I would be understandably outraged if I was the player in this situation. But the thing is, notes are not that big of a deal unless you plan on escalating your behavior. Thankfully, the false note I made no longer has a serverity, and I left it there for admins to read not for the sole purpose to demean the player.

I’m going to illiterate here, I was in the wrong with this note. The note no longer serves any value but as a reminder of my mistake and if any admin wants to research appeals and whatnot.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm And no this doesn't read as a "documentation thing." It reads as a "user fucked up and validhunted" thing.

I wanted to leave the original note behind so whoever reads it gets context for what I mistaken with. Of course, I can always negotiate with Muffin to change the note as needed. I’m not that good at clarity.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm But even though it was admitted that's not what happened, it's there to ensure admins don't see a... "gap of information"? What does that even mean? What the HELL is going on over in Manuel.

I don’t want to remove the note for the reasons I said above, but I also don’t want to remove it because I don’t want some admin to look through notes and see “oh, wait, where did that note go?” because despite what many hear or believe, we are not omnipresent. I didn’t leave it there to embarrass the player (ditto), and if it feels like that, I’m welcome to talk to them about what needs to be changed.

Also, don’t blame Manuel for this. Blame me.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:02 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm THEN REMOVE THE FUCKING NOTE!
Allow me to respond to your post (sorry peanut thread gods).

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm Christ ALMIGHTY. Why's it like pulling teeth? No one cares about your good-faith attempt to enforce the rules, you don't need to keep the note there as some bizarre way of justifying yourself. Is it a pride or an ego thing admins have, where if you apply a note or drag someone through the appeals process, you feel you need to be in the right or else you've wasted their time?
The note… isn’t there to justify me. It’s there to let the admins know that the note existed, but was appealed and that the player was in the right. If anything, it only embarrasses me by leaving my mistake there for other admins to read. This is good. This enknowledges my mistake, not the players. This isn’t some “fuck this I’m the admin” type of situation, Sinful, this is more of a “hey, I screwed up, so I’m removing the pressure off from you and admitting my mistake”. The note remains because I want to be reminded of my mistake.

Notes aren’t bans. Notes are just reminders, IMO. If this was a ban I would be understandably outraged if I was the player in this situation. But the thing is, notes are not that big of a deal unless you plan on escalating your behavior. Thankfully, the false note I made no longer has a serverity, and I left it there for admins to read not for the sole purpose to demean the player.

I’m going to illiterate here, I was in the wrong with this note. The note no longer serves any value but as a reminder of my mistake and if any admin wants to research appeals and whatnot.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm And no this doesn't read as a "documentation thing." It reads as a "user fucked up and validhunted" thing.
I wanted to leave the original note behind so whoever reads it gets context for what I mistaken with. Of course, I can always negotiate with Muffin to change the note as needed. I’m not that good at clarity.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm But even though it was admitted that's not what happened, it's there to ensure admins don't see a... "gap of information"? What does that even mean? What the HELL is going on over in Manuel.
I don’t want to remove the note for the reasons I said above, but I also don’t want to remove it because I don’t want some admin to look through notes and see “oh, wait, where did that note go?” because despite what many hear or believe, we are not omnipresent. I didn’t leave it there to embarrass the player (ditto), and if it feels like that, I’m welcome to talk to them about what needs to be changed.

Also, don’t blame Manuel for this. Blame me.

It would be much better if you stated flat out that the note has been rescinded and it should not be used for further action.

Also don't put it under low severity, since it's basically no longer going to be considered a valid note, no severity is the only thing it goes under.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:34 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm The note… isn’t there to justify me. It’s there to let the admins know that the note existed, but was appealed and that the player was in the right.

Okay but that's... Not how notes work. If the appeal is successful and it was determined the player did nothing wrong, the note gets removed. It's definitely not serving as a punishment to you, the admin. If anything it's just fucking the player over for if they run into a similar issue again.

By the same logic would you keep the note of a ban in the player's note history even if the ban got overturned?

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:36 pm**

archie ur such a nerd wtf

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:46 pm**

► Show Spoiler

Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:02 pm
Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 7:05 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm THEN REMOVE THE FUCKING NOTE!
Allow me to respond to your post (sorry peanut thread gods).

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm Christ ALMIGHTY. Why's it like pulling teeth? No one cares about your good-faith attempt to enforce the rules, you don't need to keep the note there as some bizarre way of justifying yourself. Is it a pride or an ego thing admins have, where if you apply a note or drag someone through the appeals process, you feel you need to be in the right or else you've wasted their time?
The note… isn’t there to justify me. It’s there to let the admins know that the note existed, but was appealed and that the player was in the right. If anything, it only embarrasses me by leaving my mistake there for other admins to read. This is good. This enknowledges my mistake, not the players. This isn’t some “fuck this I’m the admin” type of situation, Sinful, this is more of a “hey, I screwed up, so I’m removing the pressure off from you and admitting my mistake”. The note remains because I want to be reminded of my mistake.

Notes aren’t bans. Notes are just reminders, IMO. If this was a ban I would be understandably outraged if I was the player in this situation. But the thing is, notes are not that big of a deal unless you plan on escalating your behavior. Thankfully, the false note I made no longer has a serverity, and I left it there for admins to read not for the sole purpose to demean the player.

I’m going to illiterate here, I was in the wrong with this note. The note no longer serves any value but as a reminder of my mistake and if any admin wants to research appeals and whatnot.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm And no this doesn't read as a "documentation thing." It reads as a "user fucked up and validhunted" thing.
I wanted to leave the original note behind so whoever reads it gets context for what I mistaken with. Of course, I can always negotiate with Muffin to change the note as needed. I’m not that good at clarity.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 5:01 pm But even though it was admitted that's not what happened, it's there to ensure admins don't see a... "gap of information"? What does that even mean? What the HELL is going on over in Manuel.
I don’t want to remove the note for the reasons I said above, but I also don’t want to remove it because I don’t want some admin to look through notes and see “oh, wait, where did that note go?” because despite what many hear or believe, we are not omnipresent. I didn’t leave it there to embarrass the player (ditto), and if it feels like that, I’m welcome to talk to them about what needs to be changed.

Also, don’t blame Manuel for this. Blame me.
It would be much better if you stated flat out that the note has been rescinded and it should not be used for further action.

Also don't put it under low severity, since it's basically no longer going to be considered a valid note, no severity is the only thing it goes under.

I’ll keep these both in mind.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:49 pm**

Epicgamer, could I ask what the note is documented for? Is it for future admins to see? For the player?

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:55 pm**

vect0r wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:49 pm Epicgamer, could I ask what the note is documented for? Is it for future admins to see? For the player?

For future admins to see; not solely for the player. Unless they want to track their appeals or whatnot.

I understand the note’s wording may not be so great, so I’ll consider discussing it later in the appeal.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 8:58 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:55 pm
vect0r wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:49 pm Epicgamer, could I ask what the note is documented for? Is it for future admins to see? For the player?
For future admins to see; not solely for the player. Unless they want to track their appeals or whatnot.

I understand the note’s wording may not be so great, so I’ll consider discussing it later in the appeal.

What is your goal for future admins? Do you hope this note will change their decision making process? What do you hope an admin will do when they see this note?

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 9:22 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:55 pm
vect0r wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:49 pm Epicgamer, could I ask what the note is documented for? Is it for future admins to see? For the player?
For future admins to see; not solely for the player. Unless they want to track their appeals or whatnot.

I understand the note’s wording may not be so great, so I’ll consider discussing it later in the appeal.

It has nothing to do with the note’s wording. Whoever taught you this is how notes worked taught you wrong.

You are just creating needless work for the headmins when they inevitably remove it because you yourself said the note shouldn’t have existed.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 9:38 pm**

There are some points here I want to follow up on, but I want to wait until the appeal is over before I make a post here again (it makes me look dumb).

Keep in mind I’m hearing what you guys are saying, I just want to focus on the thing at hand. Sorry about the fuss.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 9:40 pm**

Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:02 pm It would be much better if you stated flat out that the note has been rescinded and it should not be used for further action.

Also don't put it under low severity, since it's basically no longer going to be considered a valid note, no severity is the only thing it goes under.

Respectfully do not do this.

Low/No severity is not an excuse to put something that you dont think should be a warning on the player onto their log. Either they performed poorly and it should be considered in future interactions, or it can be deleted. Deleted notes (not expired ones) are still visible for logging purposes so it makes no sense to maintain notes in the suggested manner. Besides its already tracked via the complaint even if the website has changed.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2023 9:44 pm**

Epicgamer545 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:38 pm There are some points here I want to follow up on, but I want to wait until the appeal is over before I make a post here again (it makes me look dumb).

Keep in mind I’m hearing what you guys are saying, I just want to focus on the thing at hand. Sorry about the fuss.

No problem! I just want you to think about what your note is trying to represent. If it isn't meant to be used in an admins argument for banning somebody, why have it? It's a bit like noting somebody for "opening a firelock" or "Setting up supermatter as non-antag". It got appealed, and you accepted the appeal, so why break from what almost every other admin does and just remove it?
Just think about what keeping this does compared to just removing it.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 12:51 am**

Cobby wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 9:40 pm
Archie700 wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:02 pm It would be much better if you stated flat out that the note has been rescinded and it should not be used for further action.

Also don't put it under low severity, since it's basically no longer going to be considered a valid note, no severity is the only thing it goes under.
Respectfully do not do this.

Low/No severity is not an excuse to put something that you dont think should be a warning on the player onto their log. Either they performed poorly and it should be considered in future interactions, or it can be deleted. Deleted notes (not expired ones) are still visible for logging purposes so it makes no sense to maintain notes in the suggested manner. Besides its already tracked via the complaint even if the website has changed.

You're right, I didn't think deleted notes would be still be visible.

maskenary wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:36 pm archie ur such a nerd wtf

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2023 6:20 am**

On MRP, I have a preference to enforce the MRP rules, and, this is what I wanted to do here.

MRP and its consequences have been a disaster for /tg/station.

/tg/Station 13

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