/tg/Station 13

I've never really understood why people want to purge their notes so badly, like it's some kind of disease or skin defect that you don't wanna be seen with it, but also, you're not seen with it.

From what I've seen and heard notes are just for admins to recognize behaviors, habits, and be, well, notes. They don't impair your experience, they don't punish you, and in some cases, they can be good things (positive RP notes).

What's the big deal about having this squeaky-clean record? Notes show the kind of player you are, I think I'd personally rather have details about how I RR'd someone super early into my SS13 career rather than having a short list in ban appeals publically stating all of my odd gameplay choices.


Do you hate notes? If so why do you appeal them? Is it a matter of principle, fear, or what?

more notes make admins give you harder punishments

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:23 pm more notes make admins give you harder punishments

I'm not sure this is heuristically true, and more of just an assumption of how admins function about this.

i nearly counted to 100 in ooc when everybody kept interrupting and got an antag token for it

I've got a single note that I won't ever appeal. It stops me from doing one very specific thing that won't ever happen again unless I go out of my way to do it.

I'd assume most notes are harmless like this. However, there's a few I can think of that could affect someone's experience. Powergaming, tiding and shitsec/bad command notes. These actions are considered "acceptable" in moderation.
The average player can get away with poor play, something a player with a few notes might not be able to do. So it's understandable if someone who enjoys tiding wants to appeal their tiding notes. Especially if they don't feel like their actions deserved a note.

you betterr come up with a good peannnut name for my note appeal

I dont appeal notes for this reason, its a reminder for me to not do a specific thing again also I dont get a lot of notes so kinda nothing that feels bullshit

Mice World wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:03 pm I've got a single note that I won't ever appeal. It stops me from doing one very specific thing that won't ever happen again unless I go out of my way to do it.

I'd assume most notes are harmless like this. However, there's a few I can think of that could affect someone's experience. Powergaming, tiding and shitsec/bad command notes. These actions are considered "acceptable" in moderation.
The average player can get away with poor play, something a player with a few notes might not be able to do. So it's understandable if someone who enjoys tiding wants to appeal their tiding notes. Especially if they don't feel like their actions deserved a note.

I'd argue notes about powergaming, tiding, etc can be VERY GOOD THINGS. I've been directed by admins in the past that the way I'm playing sec, command, etc has been bad for the game. I've taken what they said to heart and shown improvement. That improvement demonstrates that I'm getting better at this and that I'm listening.

Notes are ways to show an individual's growth. It's better to see someone improve rather than have a squeaky clean record just to spoil it all with repeated shitty behavior.

Mistakes are how we get better.

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:14 pm you betterr come up with a good peannnut name for my note appeal

This note is quite frankly isn't very interesting, IMO. You agreed you were being petty to slight Robotics for refusing to serve you, it even says it's an MRP note, I'd bite it, TBH.

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:15 pm I dont appeal notes for this reason, its a reminder for me to not do a specific thing again also I dont get a lot of notes so kinda nothing that feels bullshit

I recognize that some notes are bullshit, too harsh, and too strict, all at once. But a lot of the ones I see appealed aren't too strict, they're notes. They note behavior an admin didn't like to see so you remember not to do it, and so that if you do, admins are harsher towards it.

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:20 pm

Mice World wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:03 pm I've got a single note that I won't ever appeal. It stops me from doing one very specific thing that won't ever happen again unless I go out of my way to do it.

I'd assume most notes are harmless like this. However, there's a few I can think of that could affect someone's experience. Powergaming, tiding and shitsec/bad command notes. These actions are considered "acceptable" in moderation.
The average player can get away with poor play, something a player with a few notes might not be able to do. So it's understandable if someone who enjoys tiding wants to appeal their tiding notes. Especially if they don't feel like their actions deserved a note.

I'd argue notes about powergaming, tiding, etc can be VERY GOOD THINGS. I've been directed by admins in the past that the way I'm playing sec, command, etc has been bad for the game. I've taken what they said to heart and shown improvement. That improvement demonstrates that I'm getting better at this and that I'm listening.

Notes are ways to show an individual's growth. It's better to see someone improve rather than have a squeaky clean record just to spoil it all with repeated shitty behavior.

Mistakes are how we get better.

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:14 pm you betterr come up with a good peannnut name for my note appeal

This note is quite frankly isn't very interesting, IMO. You agreed you were being petty to slight Robotics for refusing to serve you, it even says it's an MRP note, I'd bite it, TBH.

TheRex9001 wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:15 pm I dont appeal notes for this reason, its a reminder for me to not do a specific thing again also I dont get a lot of notes so kinda nothing that feels bullshit

I recognize that some notes are bullshit, too harsh, and too strict, all at once. But a lot of the ones I see appealed aren't too strict, they're notes. They note behavior an admin didn't like to see so you remember not to do it, and so that if you do, admins are harsher towards it.

shouldnt IC pettiness be encouraged in an MRP sseetting

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:20 pm I'd argue notes about powergaming, tiding, etc can be VERY GOOD THINGS. I've been directed by admins in the past that the way I'm playing sec, command, etc has been bad for the game. I've taken what they said to heart and shown improvement. That improvement demonstrates that I'm getting better at this and that I'm listening.

Notes are ways to show an individual's growth. It's better to see someone improve rather than have a squeaky clean record just to spoil it all with repeated shitty behavior.

Mistakes are how we get better.

While I don't engage in it myself, I believe that not all tiding/shitsec etc is bad. Conflict is usually healthy for the round and if you're not doing constantly I think it's fine. As an example dealing with a bad sec officer/captain can provide many different roleplay opportunities.

EDIT: I believe getting noted for playing as a shit captain or whatever means you've probably taken it too far. But much like bans, not all notes are accurate. So as I said before, it's understandable if said player wants to appeal it.

Mice World wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:29 pm

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:20 pm I'd argue notes about powergaming, tiding, etc can be VERY GOOD THINGS. I've been directed by admins in the past that the way I'm playing sec, command, etc has been bad for the game. I've taken what they said to heart and shown improvement. That improvement demonstrates that I'm getting better at this and that I'm listening.

Notes are ways to show an individual's growth. It's better to see someone improve rather than have a squeaky clean record just to spoil it all with repeated shitty behavior.

Mistakes are how we get better.

While I don't engage in it myself, I believe that not all tiding/shitsec etc is bad. Conflict is usually healthy for the round and if you're not doing constantly I think it's fine. As an example dealing with a bad sec officer/captain can provide many different roleplay opportunities.

Perhaps I'm letting the humanity of the fact that admins applying the notes are prone to mistakes just as any player might be, I've just always seen that what 'real' shitsec/captain behavior is strict to take the fun out of the round. It's not about the conflict you provide by being a prick and in a position of authority, it's the opposite, not talking, silently detaining and executing people, refusing to take the disk. I see those as plenty of good valid reasons to be noted.

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:26 pm

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:20 pm

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:14 pm you betterr come up with a good peannnut name for my note appeal

This note is quite frankly isn't very interesting, IMO. You agreed you were being petty to slight Robotics for refusing to serve you, it even says it's an MRP note, I'd bite it, TBH.

shouldnt IC pettiness be encouraged in an MRP sseetting

/shrug, MRP is like a law book for a law book. I think it's harder to moderate.

But also the note that you were being petty doesn't necessarily mean petty is bad, it could mean any number of things. When I read that the first thing I think of is that it's to prevent you from excessive greytide by keeping track at how often you're petty on MRP.

i got a ban back in 2020 when i killed a hos and a secoff as a non antag prisoner in a breakout

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:28 pm

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 8:23 pm more notes make admins give you harder punishments

I'm not sure this is heuristically true, and more of just an assumption of how admins function about this.

It really isn't. The purpose of the note is for the admin to say "someone already talked about this with you". If that becomes a ban, that's entirely the player's fault for not learning it the first, second or seventeenth time.

My notes are actual soul, I have a ban from SoS himself for IC in OOC
[2013-11-23 00:00:00 | note by scaredofshadows]
Banned for 15 minutes - IC in OOC, even fake, is bannable

I don't mind my legitimate notes, I have a lot of them. I don't like getting notes that paint me in a bad light without good cause or notes that are straight up inaccurate. I'd appeal those just to not give admins a poor impression of me based on something that isn't against the rules or true.

I actually have no idea how people could assume that notes wouldn't get you a harsher punishment. Like assuming there was a situation where I as a nonantag subverted the ai to kill security. Clearly having a note on your account saying "banned for 1 week for subverting the ai to kill security as a nonantag" would lead to a harsher punishment right? Hell it doesn't even have to be specific, take a look at Timber's recent fuck up with the preemptive bans where he says looking into your history I have decided to ban you. Do you think that Timber has a video archive of rounds sorted by players? Do you think he went diving through the logs? No, he clearly looked at their notes which is why the ban says that he looked at their notes. Why the fuck are there still people who think that notes don't give you harsher punishments.

I have a note from Cobby 5 years back saying "was not asked to make a habit of opening the water vapor for mems." I can't wait for the day that an admin bwoinks me and pulls this up because I'm going to call them a retard for trying to pull up a 5 year old note on me.

You know what since we're talking about this lets get it off my chest. Fuck you Sans for giving me a note because I typo'd a /me command. I already know you just wanted to give out a note so you could run off to whatever admin was training you and get a cookie. I got this mark on my permanent record because you wanted to fill a quota.

The thing is that theoretically, notes aren't supposed to be punishments in and of itself, just a record of someone's behavior. However, they tend to be used as additional motivation for bans or additional notes, even if it's unrelated to what the person did. I'm too lazy to write this out again, but I gave my view on why I think that notes as they currently stand are essentially a dice roll if they'll lead to more punishment, depending on the admin ( viewtopic.php?f=33&t=34032&p=685495#p685495 )

I'm surprised I've never gotten a note in over a year of playing TG. It might just be because I'm boring, though. The only times I've been an antagonist has been, like, twice as a revenant, and the other times are as a converted cultist or revolutionary. There's been a few times that I've thought, "Oh, that admin delay is probably about to mean I'm going to get boinked, because I was a part of a group doing dumb stuff," but it's never come to pass. Once or twice an admin has boinked me but it was to ask what other people had done regarding a potential rule break.

Chadley wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:20 pm .

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Mon May 15, 2023 9:14 pm you betterr come up with a good peannnut name for my note appeal

This note is quite frankly isn't very interesting, IMO. You agreed you were being petty to slight Robotics for refusing to serve you, it even says it's an MRP note, I'd bite it, TBH.

I mean they were being petty because robotics was also being petty (refusing to serve anyone from engineering because one engineer refused to help them) so it's just basically paying back pettiness with pettiness

Notes are wholly a negative thing. Admins do not note you for positive conduct. It is a record other admins can use to determine severity of punishment.

Notes only exist to be used against you later.

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:55 am Notes are wholly a negative thing. Admins do not note you for positive conduct. It is a record other admins can use to determine severity of punishment.

Notes only exist to be used against you later.

We do apply positive notes. Rarely, but we do.

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:59 am

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:55 am Notes are wholly a negative thing. Admins do not note you for positive conduct. It is a record other admins can use to determine severity of punishment.

Notes only exist to be used against you later.

We do apply positive notes. Rarely, but we do.

What's an example of something positive that will get you noted?

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 8:02 am

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:59 am

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:55 am Notes are wholly a negative thing. Admins do not note you for positive conduct. It is a record other admins can use to determine severity of punishment.

Notes only exist to be used against you later.

We do apply positive notes. Rarely, but we do.

What's an example of something positive that will get you noted?

Great Gimmicks that vastly improve the round
Being a great role-player in an admin event

Admittedly, they are rare but you can get them.

I haven't seen anyone get noted for good gimmicks or rp. I'm unsure what purpose that info would serve for another admin?

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 8:08 am I haven't seen anyone get noted for good gimmicks or rp. I'm unsure what purpose that info would serve for another admin?

ive definitely seen this
usually the notes serve a purpose when choosing people for admin events or the such, like noting this player is really fun to interact with and includes the crew

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 8:08 am I haven't seen anyone get noted for good gimmicks or rp. I'm unsure what purpose that info would serve for another admin?

They often get taken into account when picking new admins.

I need to appeal not getting a note then.

I don't hate notes but I get this mentality whenever I get noted an admin would immensely hate me

my note "Griefer" is my proudest badge of honour

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:55 am Notes are wholly a negative thing. Admins do not note you for positive conduct. It is a record other admins can use to determine severity of punishment.

Notes only exist to be used against you later.

I give positive notes all the time.

The last time for someone taking time out of their gameplay experience to help an intern player.

Lets not make dangerous assumptions, please.

Positive notes do exist and happen but that doesn't change the fact that most notes are punishments, incredibly mild ones, but punishments none-the-less.

The fact that they can result in harsher punishments along the line but that doesn't necessarily mean they will, though.

I feel it would take a special kind of dent in someone's skull to assume that when people say "notes are punishments" they include positive notes in the mix.

The trick behind notes is how you behave in an ahelp. I don't try to bootlick the admins, but whether I get contacted by one or open a ticket, I keep it professional and try to explain the events with as little bias as possible, always keeping an open mind in case I was in the wrong. This helps us both in keeping away unnecessary hostilities and speed up the investigation, while also helping me learn from my mistakes if I made any.

Regarding positive notes, I think they're pointless. There is no sense in commendating a player for good behavior because it should be expected. A player's note history should only have records of rule breaking and nothing more.

Fren256 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 2:54 pm Regarding positive notes, I think they're pointless. There is no sense in commendating a player for good behavior because it should be expected. A player's note history should only have records of rule breaking and nothing more.

There's expected behavior, and then there's behavior that goes above and beyond expectations.
If someone is well and truly exceptional, I see no reason to not commend them for it.

Misdoubtful wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 12:40 pm

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 7:55 am Notes are wholly a negative thing. Admins do not note you for positive conduct. It is a record other admins can use to determine severity of punishment.

Notes only exist to be used against you later.

I give positive notes all the time.

The last time for someone taking time out of their gameplay experience to help an intern player.

Lets not make dangerous assumptions, please.

I think from a non admin perspective it was barely even an assumption. Positive notes don't really seem to serve much of a purpose, are extremely rare and there is no real tangible impact or procedure around them.

This is the opposite for negative notes which are made constantly relevant in appeals and exacerbate punishments. I've been noted once for negative conduct and had it appealed. If admins genuinely want notes to not be viewed as a wholly negative process and a form of psuedo-warning then admins need to change how they note and why.

I do pretty well in events and a number of admins seem to recognise that I will use any event or bus privileges to benefit others or the round, especially on characters like Mary Megablade or Henry Lorenz, I've participated in events under Harricross, championofpog, you and chesh that have all gone really well. I would never expect a note for that.
There is no precedents or expectation that I would receive a note for this, no player I'm aware of does a good gimmick and expects a note. Nobody says "wow that player did amazing an admin should note them"

All of these things occur with negative notes. Players know when to expect to be noted if it's bad, they know how it's going to be used if it's bad and they also know what kind of conduct they could ahelp over to get someone else a bad note.

I was wrong that positive notes don't exist. But if admins don't want players thinking that notes are bad the burden is on them to address how admins handle notes.

Fren256 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 2:54 pm
Regarding positive notes, I think they're pointless. There is no sense in commendating a player for good behavior because it should be expected. A player's note history should only have records of rule breaking and nothing more.

I don't think they're pointless but that's the worst case right? Honestly it makes me feel good placing a positive note and that's good enough reason for them to exist

I have nearly 35 notes last time I checked

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 8:53 pm

Fren256 wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 2:54 pm
Regarding positive notes, I think they're pointless. There is no sense in commendating a player for good behavior because it should be expected. A player's note history should only have records of rule breaking and nothing more.

I don't think they're pointless but that's the worst case right? Honestly it makes me feel good placing a positive note and that's good enough reason for them to exist

I have three positive notes and I roleplayed fuckin HARD for all three of them, each one makes me pretty happy

They're also all for small, admin-enabled custom gimmicks and I absolutely love those so I hope having three of them means that admins will consider my ahelp requests for gimmicks more often.

One was for a round where I had an admin spawn me in as a custom Lavaland hermit, dressed in old mining gear. He made me a little ruin and some Ash Lizard corpses and I dragged around the corpses and talked to them like they were alive, dressing them and putting them on guard duty and stuff. It led to one of the miners findiing me and me inviting them into my home, where they then watched me awkwardly drag a bunch of lizard corpses to the table and serve them dinner.

Another was a custom Dungeon Master AI lawset (that I believe got modified and uploaded as the default-board we have later on) as captain

Third was when an admin gave the AI an ion law that was the turtle-on-its-back monologue from Blade Runner, and I begged to be spawned in as a turtle to torment the AI for leaving me on my back. They spawned me in as a Drone named "Robo Tortoise" and I tormented the AI verbally for half a shift before commissioning the Chief Engineer to turn the AI satellite into a tortoise refuge.

If we're bragging about positive notes, I got one for telling an admin(in-character) to make me less lethal when trading stuff with them. Off the top of my head my phrasing was, "Good pranks don't hurt people, they're just inconvenient."

CUZ I MAY BE BAD BUT I'M PERFECTLY GOOD AT IT

massa wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 7:03 am

CUZ I MAY BE BAD BUT I'M PERFECTLY GOOD AT IT

Thank god a breath of fresh air in light of all these god damn minimods showing their boyscout badges. Good stuff as usual Julia

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 7:12 am

massa wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 7:03 am

► Show Spoiler

CUZ I MAY BE BAD BUT I'M PERFECTLY GOOD AT IT

Thank god a breath of fresh air in light of all these god damn minimods showing their boyscout badges. Good stuff as usual Julia

Impressive, let's see Axle's note history.

Once when I was starting out, I tried to make a death virus, but then fucked it up and let it out. Thank god I was horrible at viro.

Chadley wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 5:51 pm Impressive, let's see Axle's note history.

These are probably my favorites