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Kubi put it pretty well, you can't really ICly punish a "shitter"
gulag is the main way to ICly punish a shitter because you force them to 1. actually do work (they are allergic to this) and 2. be away from other players for a bit
To gulag someone you need to stun them, which means engage in a fight with them, which means that they are probably going to try to fight you.blackdav123 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 4:54 pmgulag is the main way to ICly punish a shitter because you force them to 1. actually do work (they are allergic to this) and 2. be away from other players for a bit
99% of the time the shitter would rather ghost than do 200 points of mining work. The other 1% of the time they'll come back up and start causing problems again which results in an instant second gulagging, usually causing them to kill themselves.
If you havent tried this on someone causing problems for fun do it and see how fast things change. I remember doing this to one guy three rounds in a row and they were completely reformed by the end.
I don't really know what the hour ban is supposed to achieve.
It prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.
oooOooOOoO conspiracy
Yes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
Would you be interested in seeing the gulag change to just be a 1 hour player applied ban then?conrad wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:54 pmIt prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.oooOooOOoO conspiracyYes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
I've heard you say this before but it's not accurate. They don't want to be punished/killed IC, what? No shitters or players want this to happen. They want to kill you to make someone else mad, get a rise out of people, and win the conflict. Most shitters bitch and moan to no end when the IC conflict doesn't go their way, you are most certainly not giving them what they want by killing them IC.Kubisopplay wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 4:30 pm Exclusively ooc, since punishing them IC is not a punishment, it's what they want. If you kill them, after a fight they get everything they wanted, a fight, a chance to roll for midround, and a chance to alttab and wait for next antag roll (new round).
I think admins are just saying that OOC is better because banning griefing shitters is their version of of spamming a shitters head into a table and killing them, but for admins.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:58 pm Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. First let’s think about the requirements to ahelp in the first place. For starters, you have to have been wronged or griefed in some way, that left you upset enough to call for support beyond the game. Second you have to be disengaged with the person who griefed you, with the game as a whole actually — somewhere you can type out just how you were griefed and any details you remember. Third, you have to be willing to dedicate the entire rest of the round, and possibly some of the round after that, to discussing the situation with the admin and giving details.
All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding, perhaps superficially engaging with the game but more just waiting for the next bwoink to answer. After you have underwent this arduous, unfun process, you will most likely be rewarded with a simple “handled,” or perhaps the ahelp just closed from roundend. Congratulations, you have managed to waste the entire round being frustrated instead of playing the videogame, and your reward was broadcasting to the other player in bright orange text “HEY!! IM MALDING!!”
That fucking SUCKS man. How anyone could recommend this over bashing the griefer’s head against a wall a dozen times until they’re unconscious, is completely beyond me, but it’s likely only admins (who can literally check what happened to the player they ahelped) or people who are conflict-averse IC.
As such I believe it best to ALWAYS seek IC resolution first, and ahelp either after or if you’re completely locked out of retaliation IC (dead, RR’d, perma gulagged etc).
yeah lets let players ban other players for an hourBoot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:56 pmWould you be interested in seeing the gulag change to just be a 1 hour player applied ban then?conrad wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:54 pmIt prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.oooOooOOoO conspiracyYes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
you ahelp it and move on with your life, sinfulsinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:58 pm Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. First let’s think about the requirements to ahelp in the first place. For starters, you have to have been wronged or griefed in some way, that left you upset enough to call for support beyond the game. Second you have to be disengaged with the person who griefed you, with the game as a whole actually — somewhere you can type out just how you were griefed and any details you remember. Third, you have to be willing to dedicate the entire rest of the round, and possibly some of the round after that, to discussing the situation with the admin and giving details.
All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding, perhaps superficially engaging with the game but more just waiting for the next bwoink to answer. After you have underwent this arduous, unfun process, you will most likely be rewarded with a simple “handled,” or perhaps the ahelp just closed from roundend. Congratulations, you have managed to waste the entire round being frustrated instead of playing the videogame, and your reward was broadcasting to the other player in bright orange text “HEY!! IM MALDING!!”
That fucking SUCKS man. How anyone could recommend this over bashing the griefer’s head against a wall a dozen times until they’re unconscious, is completely beyond me, but it’s likely only admins (who can literally check what happened to the player they ahelped) or people who are conflict-averse IC.
As such I believe it best to ALWAYS seek IC resolution first, and ahelp either after or if you’re completely locked out of retaliation (dead, RR’d, perma gulagged etc).
Exactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Thank you for elaborating my confusion into words.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:03 pmyeah lets let players ban other players for an hourBoot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:56 pmWould you be interested in seeing the gulag change to just be a 1 hour player applied ban then?conrad wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:54 pmIt prevents them from server hopping. Bans work across servers.oooOooOOoO conspiracyYes. Also, the hour ban guarantees they'll "remain gulaged", in a manner of speaking.Boot wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 5:48 pm I've seen people ghost or ssd or just hang out in the gulag until someone else comes down so they can steal their mats. If they dip out to play a different game or eat or just to sit out the shift then the hour ban really doesn't do anything because by the time they are ready to get back into the game the ban will have expired. Do you actually see people server hopping once they get gulagged on the backend?
surely this wont go horribly horribly wrong
Based. I used to encourage people to say, bring people they really would have been better off not killing to medical and get them healed and I'd note them for it and that they were willing to be accountable and make things right instead of ban them. Haven't done that specifically in like four years though.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:52 pm easy fix for shitters:
have an admin send them to lavaland, tell them to ONLY MINE for the duration of the shift or else they are getting a weekban
watch how many of them just ghost
*scratches off “medicated sinful post” on my bingo card*sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 7:55 pm I am going to pull the classic trope of calling the question bad. Better for what?
Better for: preventing the shitter from coming back and doing the same thing again? OOC because only admins can do that.
Better for: how you will feel after, and maintaining a cohesive IC experience? IC.
… not to single out, obviously. but it appears a lot of admins here hold similar sentiments which makes meTicket from an admin wrote: Please dont handle things in character and request admin intervention. Either deal with it yourself or let admins handle it.
this is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
a lot of players usually say "nothing ever happens when i ahelp" because they feel they're wasting their time unless they see the player disappear next roundBeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pmthis is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
The first point is a solid one, but I would say that if the player disagrees with the punishment, it’s a matter of saying “sorry that’s my ruling” then closing the ahelp. Any related complaints in forums will be instantly deemed invalid and closed like that one was.BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pm this is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
You're asking for too much, admins couldn't possibly take a few extra seconds to write a more sympathetic response.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 pm maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
i don't play spacemans to "help get someone on their radar," i play spacemans to have fun with peopleKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 pma lot of players usually say "nothing ever happens when i ahelp" because they feel they're wasting their time unless they see the player disappear next roundBeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pmthis is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
that'll make them at least think that ahelping was, you know, helpful to get someone on their radar at the very least
if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good startsinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:51 pmi don't play spacemans to "help get someone on their radar," i play spacemans to have fun with peopleKendrickorium wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 pma lot of players usually say "nothing ever happens when i ahelp" because they feel they're wasting their time unless they see the player disappear next roundBeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pmthis is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:14 pmExactly, they get to witness the whole process in action, from report to punishment. They get the satisfaction of having made the servers a better place and meted out justice accordingly. Meanwhile the player gets a “handled.” Were they permabanned? Were they let off with a kiss and a slap on the ass? You’re not privy to that information, prole. Thank you for your participation, and please come again.
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
maybe instead of admins saying "handled" all the time they could say something like, I don't know, "Thanks for your ahelp, this has been helpful"
that'll make them at least think that ahelping was, you know, helpful to get someone on their radar at the very least
anything not conducive to that goal, i shrimply am not going to do
if you told me you smacked someone off the servers for 3 days after i ahelped them it would be more vindicating though and perhaps worth it
I ahelp the worst of the worst type shitters, most often when I'm unable to do anything IC (or just don't feel like it). It brings me no benefit at all but I do this out of a combination of duty and irritation.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:06 am if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good start
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
it really needs to be taken care of both ways for the true lesson "Hey maybe i should stop doing this" to sink insinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:09 amI ahelp the worst of the worst type shitters, most often when I'm unable to do anything IC (or just don't feel like it). It brings me no benefit at all but I do this out of a combination of duty and irritation.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:06 am if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good start
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
I argue you are also helping the community by creating a space where shitters get shat on for shitting IC.
Yeah... But I'd much rather just play the game if I've resolved the issue IC, rather than getting in a back-and-forth with an admin and taking myself out the game to describe the issue in detail.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:11 amit really needs to be taken care of both ways for the true lesson "Hey maybe i should stop doing this" to sink insinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:09 amI ahelp the worst of the worst type shitters, most often when I'm unable to do anything IC (or just don't feel like it). It brings me no benefit at all but I do this out of a combination of duty and irritation.Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 12:06 am if you want to help the community, ahelping the shitters would be a good start
unless........ of course......... you...... are.... one...
I argue you are also helping the community by creating a space where shitters get shat on for shitting IC.
robust them ic
have the admin slap them ooc
yeah i agree with the privacy point it was more meant to be a theory on why some admins dont do it.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 11:40 pmThe first point is a solid one, but I would say that if the player disagrees with the punishment, it’s a matter of saying “sorry that’s my ruling” then closing the ahelp. Any related complaints in forums will be instantly deemed invalid and closed like that one was.BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 9:44 pm this is why i support telling players what type of punishment was given out. it creates a somewhat good feeling on the player's end and makes them more likely to ahelp shit in the future because they know something will get done about it. it also helps players understand what is rule breaking and what is not. only problem is it can lead to people crying when it's not harsh enough like the currently open complaint: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34073
Also it's possible some admins consider it "personal info" to reveal that someone got banned but that's ridiculous imo, ban appeals and permabans are public so if they choose to appeal their "personal" info will be revealed anyway.
The second shitter-privacy-concern point is one of the dumbest ones ever. Sorry pal but if you break the rules and grief someone, they have a right to know what punishment you got.
This just isnt true. The farthest I have seen someone go is getting gulagged and instantly rearrested for shitting again three times in one round. The third time they came back up they did it purely to suicide with an oxygen tank in my face out of spite. It was funny as fuck and definitely changed that player more than any ban could.
sinfulbliss is so right. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. If I'm getting mad over a game, the best thing to do is just disconnect and go do something else, instead of seething in dead chat or ahelps. All the fun of playing without the anti-fun of seething and coping. This seems so obvious in retrospect but having it spelled out helped. The best way to play is the Grimaline/Lisa Green way. Play, die, disconnect, repeat.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 8:58 pm Ahelping from a player-facing perspective resolves absolutely nothing, and ironically the greatest punishment is to yourself. (...) All the while the round is STILL ongoing, people are having fun playing, and you, meanwhile, are sitting there essentially self-round-removed, malding (...) That fucking SUCKS man.
That's why an admin shouldn't tell the player what they're doing or even if they're looking into the accused during the round. Their response provides information on a game that relies on incomplete information.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 3:13 am What if the "shitter" is actually an antagonist? Ahelping is not going to do anything then. And admins aren't supposed to tell you the player is, in fact, an antagonist, so you're left needing to resolve it IC anyway.
Unfortunately players don't have antag HUDs on! So of course you are going to opt to respond IC to being griefed if you can, instead of running away and ahelping it, that doesn't make you a "shitter" nor does it make you a "vigilante," it just makes you a sane player.
In the process of investigating the issue and asking follow-up questions to begin with they’re already giving info (if it were an antag they wouldn’t need follow-up questions), so I don’t think this is a factor.dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:29 pmThat's why an admin shouldn't tell the player what they're doing or even if they're looking into the accused during the round. Their response provides information on a game that relies on incomplete information.sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 3:13 am What if the "shitter" is actually an antagonist? Ahelping is not going to do anything then. And admins aren't supposed to tell you the player is, in fact, an antagonist, so you're left needing to resolve it IC anyway.
Unfortunately players don't have antag HUDs on! So of course you are going to opt to respond IC to being griefed if you can, instead of running away and ahelping it, that doesn't make you a "shitter" nor does it make you a "vigilante," it just makes you a sane player.
If that makes people less likely to ahelp then that's too bad. I think the most they should get is an acknowledgement that the ahelp was received.
