/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34501

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:28 am I understand that you have played this game for a significant time, but I haven't gone digging back a decade or fourteen years for these notes. Just a couple years. I acknowledge still, that a couple of years is quite some time to be looking back, but when I look at such a time frame on any other player, I have yet to see a similar case of one breaking the same rule 6 times.

14 days is a long time, even more so when you're basing it off the last 2 years. Fading notes are not a real concept. Especially with an active player like Crag.

i dont like this ban and im too lazy too elborate in a peanut

Chadley wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:31 pm viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34501

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:28 am I understand that you have played this game for a significant time, but I haven't gone digging back a decade or fourteen years for these notes. Just a couple years. I acknowledge still, that a couple of years is quite some time to be looking back, but when I look at such a time frame on any other player, I have yet to see a similar case of one breaking the same rule 6 times.

14 days is a long time, even more so when you're basing it off the last 2 years.

14 days was based off of only the last and most recent note.

Chadley wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:31 pm Fading notes are not a real concept. Especially with an active player like Crag.

And this is what I had to say about such things:

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:28 am I am not one such administrators that is trying to beat down "notes aren't punishment." I think that debate is pure semantics, and I said as much in Admin bus months ago:
"They are. Unless you're being pedantic and want to say that in reality the notes are just recordkeeping; that it's not the notes that lead to a future ban, it's the fact that previous rule breaking behavior happened before and was repeated."

I'm not sure I find it entirely fair, that you can get away with continuing to break the rules by spacing it out every few months.

I think the reason is people hate notes so much is the permanency of them. If you're a long-time player, even if you are a good-faith player, you will accrue many notes. It's just part of playing the game. Yeah shitters will gather notes at a breakneck pace, but every active player who isn't lame in the opposite direction (sitting silently in the library all round), will get them from time to time either by mistake, or by breaking the rules to make the round better in some way. It's literally just part of the game.

Frankly I think that if admins are questioning someone who's being bothered IC then the person should be allowed to tell the other player "Go away im on the line with admins".

We can wait. And if we can't, we'll admin prison you instead,

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:57 pm We can wait. And if we can't, we'll admin prison you instead,

Players in my experience both sending and recieving pms always prioritise the person who can make them removed from the server for 20,000 minutes over the person who can make them removed from the server for 15-30 minutes.

Cragg got what he deserved. Playing on Manual is literally asking to get clapped shitmins.

Boot wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:17 pm Cragg got what he deserved. Playing on Manual is literally asking to get clapped shitmins.

Wow I never expected Crag to get victimblamed

We're breaking new ground in this thread

hi as the person involved with this peanut i just want to say i think its weird that you make a peanut thread when both parties came to a peaceable agreement. 8 days is not the result i hoped for but compromise is better than slinging poop constantly and getting a 5 page thread and everyone making peanut posts calling me names and waiting 4 weeks for the headmins to rule on it. as far as i can tell there's no malice between me and sightld2 so i think if you really have questions about this incident it would be better served with a policy thread instead of a peanut thread where people say "i like this ban" or "i dont like this ban"

imo expiring notes should become the norm except for very extreme and significant cases of rule breaking behaviour. in my experience if you tell a player "this note will expire in 2 weeks/1 month/6 months/a year given that you don't do something similar again" then they will try to learn from the mistake but if you mark them for life they will just feel like they have a target on their back and eventually go eh fuck it, whatever.

notes do fade but admins can press a button to access your full history. i never do this because it's usually a waste of time to read them and i don't care about what rules you broke 3 years ago when i'm trying to make a ruling today.

also sight is an excellent admin who puts a lot of work into trying their absolute best to be as fair and understanding as possible.

There's the unfortunate fact that fading notes are a double-edged sword akin to pandora's box.

On one hand, sometimes we need to see old notes, in cases like a player getting banned, never playing again, and coming back in roughly a year to do the same BS, or in cases where someone was perma'd, and recently unbanned only to repeat offenses.

HOWEVER, because those notes don't actually go away and there is a big ol' button to let us recount your sins, we're often inclined to do so to better develop our understanding of an individual's personality and habits. It's a shame that ban dates don't have a larger indicator and don't fade based on playtime.

Oh maintainermins!! Wouldn't it be nice if notes faded based on playtime thereby justifying a fade and moreover allowing players to justify themselves?

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:21 pm hi as the person involved with this peanut i just want to say i think its weird that you make a peanut thread when both parties came to a peaceable agreement. 8 days is not the result i hoped for but compromise is better than slinging poop constantly and getting a 5 page thread and everyone making peanut posts calling me names and waiting 4 weeks for the headmins to rule on it. as far as i can tell there's no malice between me and sightld2 so i think if you really have questions about this incident it would be better served with a policy thread instead of a peanut thread where people say "i like this ban" or "i dont like this ban"

i like this post

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:59 pm Players in my experience both sending and recieving pms always prioritise the person who can make them removed from the server for 20,000 minutes over the person who can make them removed from the server for 15-30 minutes.

That's fair. I do try and tell people "Hey go handle your IC stuff I can wait..." or, "I see your very busy, when you have a moment..." But I get that that's not the immediate reaction of a player, and I didn't get a chance to say either of those things in this case.

Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:24 pm Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

surely a revolution would be more successful if the the revolutionary with medical training kept reviving more potential sturmtruppen for the cause instead of just rushing at the nearest redshirt and getting immediately deconverted/murdered. its not like i was reviving enemies of the revolution, i was getting assistants, shaft miners, and engineers back up, lawyer could have easily flashed them instead of flashing one medical doctor and then ahelping that i didn't immediately suicide bomb the brig

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:41 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:24 pm Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

surely a revolution would be more successful if the the revolutionary with medical training kept reviving more potential sturmtruppen for the cause instead of just rushing at the nearest redshirt and getting immediately deconverted/murdered. its not like i was reviving enemies of the revolution, i was getting assistants, shaft miners, and engineers back up, lawyer could have easily flashed them instead of flashing one medical doctor and then ahelping that i didn't immediately suicide bomb the brig

The only round I played in recent memory as a head rev had a significant portion of converts refuse to participate and this is a problem with the game mode. I also had another round where a converted heretic proceeded to immediately kill our team's clown and revealed our location, spoiling the round contrary to the rules.
People refusing to play team antag ruin the team antag game mode. As a rev you are subordinate to the headrev. You don't get to decide what is and isn't best for the revolution, that is the head rev's decision.

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:49 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:41 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:24 pm Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

surely a revolution would be more successful if the the revolutionary with medical training kept reviving more potential sturmtruppen for the cause instead of just rushing at the nearest redshirt and getting immediately deconverted/murdered. its not like i was reviving enemies of the revolution, i was getting assistants, shaft miners, and engineers back up, lawyer could have easily flashed them instead of flashing one medical doctor and then ahelping that i didn't immediately suicide bomb the brig

The only round I played in recent memory as a head rev had a significant portion of converts refuse to participate and this is a problem with the game mode. I also had another round where a converted heretic proceeded to immediately kill our team's clown and revealed our location, spoiling the round contrary to the rules.
People refusing to play team antag ruin the team antag game mode. As a rev you are subordinate to the headrev. You don't get to decide what is and isn't best for the revolution, that is the head rev's decision.

if the majority of people find a game mode so odious that they would rather not participate maybe the game mode should be looked at to find out why so many people find it miserable to play

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:51 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:49 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:41 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:24 pm Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

surely a revolution would be more successful if the the revolutionary with medical training kept reviving more potential sturmtruppen for the cause instead of just rushing at the nearest redshirt and getting immediately deconverted/murdered. its not like i was reviving enemies of the revolution, i was getting assistants, shaft miners, and engineers back up, lawyer could have easily flashed them instead of flashing one medical doctor and then ahelping that i didn't immediately suicide bomb the brig

The only round I played in recent memory as a head rev had a significant portion of converts refuse to participate and this is a problem with the game mode. I also had another round where a converted heretic proceeded to immediately kill our team's clown and revealed our location, spoiling the round contrary to the rules.
People refusing to play team antag ruin the team antag game mode. As a rev you are subordinate to the headrev. You don't get to decide what is and isn't best for the revolution, that is the head rev's decision.

if the majority of people find a game mode so odious that they would rather not participate maybe the game mode should be looked at to find out why so many people find it miserable to play

Where's your policy thread on this then.

Wait that's a proper ban for 8 days? For ooc in IC?
I won't see a cragter in 8 days?
Shuuucks
No!
I mad now

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:52 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:51 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:49 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:41 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:24 pm Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

surely a revolution would be more successful if the the revolutionary with medical training kept reviving more potential sturmtruppen for the cause instead of just rushing at the nearest redshirt and getting immediately deconverted/murdered. its not like i was reviving enemies of the revolution, i was getting assistants, shaft miners, and engineers back up, lawyer could have easily flashed them instead of flashing one medical doctor and then ahelping that i didn't immediately suicide bomb the brig

The only round I played in recent memory as a head rev had a significant portion of converts refuse to participate and this is a problem with the game mode. I also had another round where a converted heretic proceeded to immediately kill our team's clown and revealed our location, spoiling the round contrary to the rules.
People refusing to play team antag ruin the team antag game mode. As a rev you are subordinate to the headrev. You don't get to decide what is and isn't best for the revolution, that is the head rev's decision.

if the majority of people find a game mode so odious that they would rather not participate maybe the game mode should be looked at to find out why so many people find it miserable to play

Where's your policy thread on this then.

getting an antagonist type removed from rotation would fall under the purview of a code feedback thread I believe, and thus, no such thread shall be made because coders do not participate in feedback threads that are not created by themselves. before you tell me "why don't you make a PR then" i will inform you that I am already gitbanned and wish to avoid repetitive motion stress injuries to my hands that would be caused by appealing the ban and then having to respond to the Greennames making 12,000 shit posts on the PR spamming rick and morty memes and telling me to eat poo poo pee pee ca ca doo doo only to be gitbanned again when I question the merit in their behaving in such a manner.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 11:00 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:52 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:51 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:49 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:41 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:24 pm Crag ought to be rev banned, not because he would want to be (he doesn't) but because he already indicated he won't participate in rev rounds.
Go get yourself mindshielded in the brig each round if you don't want to play rev instead of ruining the round for the headrevs. There's nothing that sucks more during rev rounds than people who get converted and don't participate.

surely a revolution would be more successful if the the revolutionary with medical training kept reviving more potential sturmtruppen for the cause instead of just rushing at the nearest redshirt and getting immediately deconverted/murdered. its not like i was reviving enemies of the revolution, i was getting assistants, shaft miners, and engineers back up, lawyer could have easily flashed them instead of flashing one medical doctor and then ahelping that i didn't immediately suicide bomb the brig

The only round I played in recent memory as a head rev had a significant portion of converts refuse to participate and this is a problem with the game mode. I also had another round where a converted heretic proceeded to immediately kill our team's clown and revealed our location, spoiling the round contrary to the rules.
People refusing to play team antag ruin the team antag game mode. As a rev you are subordinate to the headrev. You don't get to decide what is and isn't best for the revolution, that is the head rev's decision.

if the majority of people find a game mode so odious that they would rather not participate maybe the game mode should be looked at to find out why so many people find it miserable to play

Where's your policy thread on this then.

getting an antagonist type removed from rotation would fall under the purview of a code feedback thread I believe, and thus, no such thread shall be made because coders do not participate in feedback threads that are not created by themselves. before you tell me "why don't you make a PR then" i will inform you that I am already gitbanned and wish to avoid repetitive motion stress injuries to my hands that would be caused by appealing the ban and then having to respond to the Greennames making 12,000 shit posts on the PR spamming rick and morty memes and telling me to eat poo poo pee pee ca ca doo doo only to be gitbanned again when I question the merit in their behaving in such a manner.

Then I guess the team antag bans should be issued until morale improves. You might hate the game mode but someone who already was round removed might enjoy it moreso than spectating.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 11:00 pm getting an antagonist type removed from rotation would fall under the purview of a code feedback thread I believe, and thus, no such thread shall be made because coders do not participate in feedback threads that are not created by themselves. before you tell me "why don't you make a PR then" i will inform you that I am already gitbanned and wish to avoid repetitive motion stress injuries to my hands that would be caused by appealing the ban and then having to respond to the Greennames making 12,000 shit posts on the PR spamming rick and morty memes and telling me to eat poo poo pee pee ca ca doo doo only to be gitbanned again when I question the merit in their behaving in such a manner.

Nope, dynamic options are modified through config, so it is policy. (Having it removed from the code would be coding feedback)

WineAllWine wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 11:04 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 11:00 pm getting an antagonist type removed from rotation would fall under the purview of a code feedback thread I believe, and thus, no such thread shall be made because coders do not participate in feedback threads that are not created by themselves. before you tell me "why don't you make a PR then" i will inform you that I am already gitbanned and wish to avoid repetitive motion stress injuries to my hands that would be caused by appealing the ban and then having to respond to the Greennames making 12,000 shit posts on the PR spamming rick and morty memes and telling me to eat poo poo pee pee ca ca doo doo only to be gitbanned again when I question the merit in their behaving in such a manner.

Nope, dynamic options are modified through config, so it is policy. (Having it removed from the code would be coding feedback)

neat thanks for letting me know

Frankly I prefer it to "I'm talking with the gods" Especially because we allow stuff like "click in the top left of your screen"

This is unequivocally a shitmin ban. If I could, I'd make a complaint on Crag's behalf.
The admin interrupted the player's round by bwoinking him and then banned him for telling other players he was busy... replying to the admin that bwoinked him...
This is entrapment. The admin caused the actions that led to the ban.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 12:46 am This is unequivocally a shitmin ban. If I could, I'd make a complaint on Crag's behalf.
The admin interrupted the player's round by bwoinking him and then banned him for telling other players he was busy... replying to the admin that bwoinked him...
This is entrapment. The admin caused the actions that led to the ban.

i agree with ekaterina but in a less aggressive manner

I don't really know what to say regarding this ban but notes are 100% a punishment.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 3:52 am i have actual work to do

lol. It's a videogame, no work is more real than another.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:17 am Thank you for your time, Sightld2, and for your leniency.

"Thank you for the beating, master"

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:21 pm 8 days is not the result i hoped for but compromise is better than slinging poop constantly and getting a 5 page thread and everyone making peanut posts calling me names and waiting 4 weeks for the headmins to rule on it

This is depressing, but it's even worse knowing it mirrors an issue that happens in real life where the consequences are much graver: innocent men taking plea deals because they know they wouldn't get a fair trial and might get an even worse sentence. That's Crag right now.

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:57 pm We can wait. And if we can't, we'll admin prison you instead,

Can we not also accept "Hang on, I'm responding to a bwoink" in the same way we accept "Clickdrag them onto you"? We don't have LOOC, but sometimes there's things you need to say, and "I'm talking to the gods" doesn't have the same urgency as "dude please i'm responding to the people who can ban me"

If we can, the only other thing said a deathgasp that very likely noone saw, and even if they do, is one we can at least have a bit of understanding over.

Iunno, it just feels a little shonky to me. A few incidents spread out over years are more likely to be noted down because there's a "history" of it, and it doesn't account for someone improving.

The reason I hate notes being permanent so much, is what's the point of trying to improve, if your past will be held over you as though you haven't changed whenever you have even a small, 10% scale relapse?

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:14 am

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:57 pm We can wait. And if we can't, we'll admin prison you instead,

Can we not also accept "Hang on, I'm responding to a bwoink" in the same way we accept "Clickdrag them onto you"? We don't have LOOC, but sometimes there's things you need to say, and "I'm talking to the gods" doesn't have the same urgency as "dude please i'm responding to the people who can ban me"

If we can, the only other thing said a deathgasp that very likely noone saw, and even if they do, is one we can at least have a bit of understanding over.

Iunno, it just feels a little shonky to me. A few incidents spread out over years are more likely to be noted down because there's a "history" of it, and it doesn't account for someone improving.

The reason I hate notes being permanent so much, is what's the point of trying to improve, if your past will be held over you as though you haven't changed whenever you have even a small, 10% scale relapse?

Yeah that's what bothers me a lot too. My understanding was that as long as you were using OOC terms in IC only when necessary, it was okay. Like, if someone can't figure out how to do something, sometimes you just need to flat out say, "You craft that from the crafting menu," "You hit 'z' on that," "You aggressive grab then target their leg to twist it back into place"

I do think a ban is a lot especially if the most recent note is from a while ago. I have no clue how long ago that note was but if it's more than 6 month? Yikes. I assume it is a recent one, (less than 6 months) because otherwise that's a bad look for this admin.

If I got a ban like that I'd be appealing it to the end. Did crag actually hinder or not help the revolution? No, they just voiced distaste and did medical work and didn't hinder revolutionarys. They still impacted the round. Being away from a week (was 2 weeks before) might not seem like much, but so many fun and interesting things can happen in a week.

Do we want players that get converted to essentially be forced to follow a rev heads orders in Manuel? This is what this ban means. If it's something that the admins or players want, then sure. Go ahead I guess.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:07 am This is depressing, but it's even worse knowing it mirrors an issue that happens in real life where the consequences are much graver: innocent men taking plea deals because they know they wouldn't get a fair trial and might get an even worse sentence. That's Crag right now.

I agree with this sentiment here.

Constellado wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:30 am Do we want players that get converted to essentially be forced to follow a rev heads orders in Manuel? This is what this ban means. If it's something that the admins or players want, then sure. Go ahead I guess.

I'm kinda torn. I'd like revs to have to follow the head's orders, because sometimes you want to take things slow, and there's the LEGENDARY idea of a Res Gimmick if you could ever convince people to follow it.

But at the same time, as long as they aren't hindering the revolution (IE, bumrushing Sec when told not to, so they get caught and deconverted) it should be fine. Which would also cover a gimmick, as going against the order to lay low is hindering it as the revs aren't ready yet, honestly.

Edit: Forgot this;

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:17 am Yeah that's what bothers me a lot too. My understanding was that as long as you were using OOC terms in IC only when necessary, it was okay. Like, if someone can't figure out how to do something, sometimes you just need to flat out say, "You craft that from the crafting menu," "You hit 'z' on that," "You aggressive grab then target their leg to twist it back into place"

You're totally allowed in cases where it's to teach someone something, and I think "hey as something that kinda just goes around indiscriminately killing, can you go round remove someone else for the moment please I need to talk to the people who can ban me, you can try to kill me later" is kinda reasonable, as it's a matter of Being Able To Play The Game Or Not.

Constellado wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:30 am I do think a ban is a lot especially if the most recent note is from a while ago. I have no clue how long ago that note was but if it's more than 6 month? Yikes. I assume it is a recent one, (less than 6 months) because otherwise that's a bad look for this admin.

I cannot disclose this.

Constellado wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:30 am If I got a ban like that I'd be appealing it to the end. Did crag actually hinder or not help the revolution? No, they just voiced distaste and did medical work and didn't hinder revolutionarys.
Do we want players that get converted to essentially be forced to follow a rev heads orders in Manuel? This is what this ban means. If it's something that the admins or players want, then sure. Go ahead I guess.

I was under the impression this was already the case. However even if I was mistaken, I did not action any revolutionary activity, only breaches in IC and OOC.

Constellado wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:30 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:07 am This is depressing, but it's even worse knowing it mirrors an issue that happens in real life where the consequences are much graver: innocent men taking plea deals because they know they wouldn't get a fair trial and might get an even worse sentence. That's Crag right now.

I agree with this sentiment here.

I feel I am being quite fair, in that I,
A. Offered to let Crag delay the ban because I understood now to be a particularly inconvenient time for him.

B. Even AFTER wrapping up and compromising at 8 days, I recognized that the headmin review system was not going to be of any assistance and reached out to the active online headmin at the time and got them to give me their input. Had that single headmin told me that I was excessive, or out of line, I would have removed the ban entirely without the other two's input. I recognize that that is not the same thing as a full on headmin review/investigation, but I did what I could to get a fraction of that to keep me in check even though I did not have to, in the interest of fairness to Crag and his specific circumstances.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:07 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:17 am Thank you for your time, Sightld2, and for your leniency.

"Thank you for the beating, master"

You are insane

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 2:09 am B. Even AFTER wrapping up and compromising at 8 days, I recognized that the headmin review system was not going to be of any assistance and reached out to the active online headmin at the time and got them to give me their input. Had that single headmin told me that I was excessive, or out of line, I would have removed the ban entirely without the other two's input. I recognize that that is not the same thing as a full on headmin review/investigation, but I did what I could to get a fraction of that to keep me in check even though I did not have to, in the interest of fairness to Crag and his specific circumstances.

Ah yeah, that's fair then. I didn't know OOC in IC was a week ban, which is why I felt like it was unfair for poor crag here.


maybe they are doing an OOC in IC crackdown in Manuel. I saw a lot of OOC in IC recently...

Constellado wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 2:29 am Ah yeah, that's fair then. I didn't know OOC in IC was a week ban, which is why I felt like it was unfair for poor crag here.
maybe they are doing an OOC in IC crackdown in Manuel. I saw a lot of OOC in IC recently...

well no strictly speaking we don't have times set to particular rule breaks. Its up to the individual admin based on context and history. It is still a perfectly acceptable belief that either 14 days or even 8 days is excessive. But Me and Crag are content with it, and I even went a step beyond to make sure at least one of my bosses was happy with it.

14 days?? what the flarp?!?

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 2:22 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 1:07 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:17 am Thank you for your time, Sightld2, and for your leniency.

"Thank you for the beating, master"

You are insane

I never say thanks to admins in ahelps, it's basically bootlicking

can we just put this into perspective for a second..

crag got banned for simply saying “i’m not contributing” and then disconnecting in the ahelp. how the fuck is that rulebreaking?

i think the admin got mad that crag decided to dip when they busted their balls and so they whacked them super hard for it. also this whole ban appeal is way way too long for ock ick. y’all needa ground yallselves christ almighty

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:21 am crag got banned for simply saying “i’m not contributing” and then disconnecting in the ahelp. how the fuck is that rulebreaking?

The note in question:

...-Crag spoke IC that he was talking to the admins and only wanted to play the game-...

The triggering lines being:
"I am responding to an admin bwoink, fuck off dipshit"
"I just wanted to play the fucking game."

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:05 am

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:21 am crag got banned for simply saying “i’m not contributing” and then disconnecting in the ahelp. how the fuck is that rulebreaking?

The note in question:

...-Crag spoke IC that he was talking to the admins and only wanted to play the game-...

The triggering lines being:
"I am responding to an admin bwoink, fuck off dipshit"
"I just wanted to play the fucking game."

First one is kinda cringe but honestly if they’re just asking for some space to answer an ahelp I understand saying that.

And the second one is like super minor OCK ICK, not even close to worthy of a 2 WEEK ban even with a note in the last 8 months

Even a week I'd say is too harsh, it isn't like he went out of his way to ruin the game for anyone. Could he have worded it better? Sure! Should egregious OCK ICKing be punishable? Absolutely! However this isn't OCK ICKing for the sake of OCK ICKing, a bwoink is a serious matter. As others have said before, we use OOC terminology freely when teaching new players, are we to punish them too?

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:30 am Even a week I'd say is too harsh, it isn't like he went out of his way to ruin the game for anyone. Could he have worded it better? Sure! Should egregious OCK ICKing be punishable? Absolutely! However this isn't OCK ICKing for the sake of OCK ICKing, a bwoink is a serious matter. As others have said before, we use OOC terminology freely when teaching new players, are we to punish them too?

I think the funniest part is we JUST got done having a thread where everyone like, universally agreed that some Ock Ick is okay if there's a reason for it, and compared it to things like Metal Gear Solid having "Press SELECT to use your Codec. When we call you, press SELECT to answer." and "Isn't her frequency on the back of the box?"

And then we have someone trying not to get RR'd while responding to a bwoink in...I mean it's definitely Ock Ick but how else would you have them say it? And the hammer just comes down.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:26 am

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:30 am I might as well be a boomer when it comes to posting on forums like this

snip

I believe we're all in agreement that this ban sucks mega donkey dick then, to put it bluntly?

My proposal: Introduce fading notes. No offense to the admins - but people you just drag off from the street and put in a position of authority will have no clue how to evaluate and compare a player's multi-year long history to the present and then make a fair call based on that.
Or maybe just keep them accessible to higher ranking staff like headmins, who are more likely to have a certain level of experience to them and are ideally more capable of seeing the whole picture and, based on that, able to weigh in on a decision one way or the other in a fair and inclusive way.

Needless to say, a two week ban for what could at worst be considered "frivolous" is beyond excessive.

If I was to give a few pointers to the responsible admin, it would be this:
- Consider a player's activity before making any decisions based on their history. Strongly consider situational circumstances that may have led the player to act in a way that they otherwise would not have.
- Regardless of history, consider the scope and gravity of what actually happened. Ask yourself, what part about the whole incident is the real problem, and how can I adress it?

Personally, really proud of you Crag and how you handled yourself in the appeal. Your opening posts were really strong and you articulated yourself really well. I can only hope that there won't be more entries in the appeal section necessary, but if there are, then I am confident that you can earnestly make your case and put a spotlight on all the important points that one ought to consider.


With beaming regards
-BONERMASTER

hiya crag

I recognize the repeated OOC in IC and Crag's general temperament, but 2 weeks? Even a week is too much.

Just give him a day, even three, if you want to push it.

*starts chanting*
Free Crag! Free Crag!
Free Crag! Free Crag!
Free Crag! Free Crag!
Free Crag! Free Crag!

Fren256 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 4:49 am I never say thanks to admins in ahelps, it's basically bootlicking

I so hope this isn't ironic. Did Fren become based overnight?