/tg/Station 13

Fourteen job bans jfc

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34529

This is an unfair ban btw, at least with his side of the story.

Id like to clarify that the fourteen job bans consist of science, command and engineering.
Science is due to the recent appeal if you read.
Engineering is due to a poor escalation issue.
Command I have no idea where its come from

I wouldnt say unfair, but it could be lowered to a week or something? or maybe an extention of the jobban?

I was observing this round and what Devin is leaving out is that he was clad in full Captain gear including the magnate MOD and the vast majority of the crew had already taken that he was the captain.

DevinXoptoh wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:14 pm Id like to clarify that the fourteen job bans consist of science, command and engineering.
Science is due to the recent appeal if you read.
Engineering is due to a poor escalation issue.
Command I have no idea where its come from

You can understand that having three department bans doesn't make it sound any better, right?

"I was banned from fourteen countries" is not worse than "I was banned from three continents".

Unless you suck at geography I guess.

If you were banned from every command role, why the fuck would you think taking acting would be a good idea?

You've were judged incapable of being captain and yet when given the opportunity on mid pop you jumped at it?

Of all the 30-50 people on the server at that time you were literally the least qualified person for that role.

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:13 pm I was observing this round and what Devin is leaving out is that he was clad in full Captain gear including the magnate MOD and the vast majority of the crew had already taken that he was the captain.

I won't speak one way or the other on the actual ban or appeal, but as someone who was IN that round, we had people so upset with the captaining that they were starting to do a "we aren't revs but we're making a union" and as the bartender I had people giving me stuff to spike their drinks so that The Mob could deal with them.

It's rare to see that many people try to mutiny like that.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:12 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:13 pm I was observing this round and what Devin is leaving out is that he was clad in full Captain gear including the magnate MOD and the vast majority of the crew had already taken that he was the captain.

I won't speak one way or the other on the actual ban or appeal, but as someone who was IN that round, we had people so upset with the captaining that they were starting to do a "we aren't revs but we're making a union" and as the bartender I had people giving me stuff to spike their drinks so that The Mob could deal with them.

It's rare to see that many people try to mutiny like that.

It started when he took the prisoner's swords, me and another player were protesting peacefully outside of the brig (Just waving about a sign, shouting "no justice, no peace", things like that)
The "captain" then proceeds to throw a flashbang, flash us and then take our swords for said peaceful protests, and from there, it escalated into the unions and near mutiny that occurred.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:12 pm I won't speak one way or the other on the actual ban or appeal, but as someone who was IN that round, we had people so upset with the captaining that they were starting to do a "we aren't revs but we're making a union" and as the bartender I had people giving me stuff to spike their drinks so that The Mob could deal with them.

It's rare to see that many people try to mutiny like that.

How does he get in trouble so much. goodness me. I want to see logs of the mutiny now xD

There was a round once where I ended up demoting him (he was CE). After getting demoted he welded the SM vents. That was something.

Constellado wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:22 pm

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:12 pm I won't speak one way or the other on the actual ban or appeal, but as someone who was IN that round, we had people so upset with the captaining that they were starting to do a "we aren't revs but we're making a union" and as the bartender I had people giving me stuff to spike their drinks so that The Mob could deal with them.

It's rare to see that many people try to mutiny like that.

How does he get in trouble so much. goodness me. I want to see logs of the mutiny now xD

There was a round once where I ended up demoting him (he was CE). After getting demoted he welded the SM vents. That was something.

Bet you 1 quid that was what got him jobbanned from engineering

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:12 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:13 pm I was observing this round and what Devin is leaving out is that he was clad in full Captain gear including the magnate MOD and the vast majority of the crew had already taken that he was the captain.

I won't speak one way or the other on the actual ban or appeal, but as someone who was IN that round, we had people so upset with the captaining that they were starting to do a "we aren't revs but we're making a union" and as the bartender I had people giving me stuff to spike their drinks so that The Mob could deal with them.

It's rare to see that many people try to mutiny like that.

It's pretty telling that on the one round he bypasses his ban he's already got people trying to mutiny him.

Why do you think he's banned from so many jobs?

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:24 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:12 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 8:13 pm I was observing this round and what Devin is leaving out is that he was clad in full Captain gear including the magnate MOD and the vast majority of the crew had already taken that he was the captain.

I won't speak one way or the other on the actual ban or appeal, but as someone who was IN that round, we had people so upset with the captaining that they were starting to do a "we aren't revs but we're making a union" and as the bartender I had people giving me stuff to spike their drinks so that The Mob could deal with them.

It's rare to see that many people try to mutiny like that.

It's pretty telling that on the one round he bypasses his ban he's already got people trying to mutiny him.

Why do you think he's banned from so many jobs?

I'll give him credit for one thing, the Sci and Command were all at once, from an incident as an RD.

But it was also a very questionable thing to do, and doing this like, less than a week after having the appeal for all of those denied was definitely a very questionable decision.

The ban is justified for evasion perhaps but tbh if you're not getting the crew ready to lynch you as captain once in a while you're not playing the role very well.

This ban's unjustified solely on the grounds that this needs to be documented clearly in the main rules somewhere.

if you're role banned don't use any justification to take the roles you're banned from, it'll blow up in your face like a maxcap with a health sensor

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:55 am This ban's unjustified solely on the grounds that this needs to be documented clearly in the main rules somewhere.

Ban evading isn't documented clearly in the main rules somewhere and yet we ban people for ban evasion all the time.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:24 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:55 am This ban's unjustified solely on the grounds that this needs to be documented clearly in the main rules somewhere.

Ban evading isn't documented clearly in the main rules somewhere and yet we ban people for ban evasion all the time.

ban evaders aren’t banned for evading they’re banned because they did some other shit that got them banned and now it’s being applied to their new account

Nah, people have been perma'd for evading temp bans before and had to appeal the evasion perma to play after their temp ban expired.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:28 am Nah, people have been perma'd for evading temp bans before and had to appeal the evasion perma to play after their temp ban expired.

the reason evading isn’t allowed is because if evading were allowed it would make every other rule irrelevant since you could just evade after you got banned for them lol

evading being disallowed isn’t a rule per say it’s the necessary requirement for there TO BE rules to begin with

It’s sorta like escaping jail

Your sentence can definitely be extended to deter people from escaping jail but at the end of the day you’re not being recaptured because you escaped jail, you’re being recaptured because you’re a criminal that did some crime to end up in jail to begin with

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:24 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:55 am This ban's unjustified solely on the grounds that this needs to be documented clearly in the main rules somewhere.

Ban evading isn't documented clearly in the main rules somewhere and yet we ban people for ban evasion all the time.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:28 am Nah, people have been perma'd for evading temp bans before and had to appeal the evasion perma to play after their temp ban expired.

Add it to the rules. Nulla poena sine lege.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:37 am It’s sorta like escaping jail

Your sentence can definitely be extended to deter people from escaping jail but at the end of the day you’re not being recaptured because you escaped jail, you’re being recaptured because you’re a criminal that did some crime to end up in jail to begin with

It is definitely a specific crime to escape prison, why are you even saying this?

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:30 pm It is definitely a specific crime to escape prison

... where? Saying that something is a crime without saying where is pointless, it's likely there will be places where it is and places where it isn't. In Germany, for instance, it isn't.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:32 pm

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:30 pm It is definitely a specific crime to escape prison

... where? Saying that something is a crime without saying where is pointless, it's likely there will be places where it is and places where it isn't. In Germany, for instance, it isn't.

The only place that matters

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:21 pm Nulla poena sine lege.

Yes, you can. This isn't a constitutional republic. This is a videogame.

If you play a job you're banned, you're ban evading. Rule 7 yada yada

Curb you latin lmao

Okay maaaaybe it wasn't that unfair, but ever since he got back it looks like he's gotten some leeway instead of just getting perma'd again. With that in mind, shouldn't he get one more chance with a tempban instead of jumping straight to kicking him from the game forever?

Fren256 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:02 pm Okay maaaaybe it wasn't that unfair, but ever since he got back it looks like he's gotten some leeway instead of just getting perma'd again. With that in mind, shouldn't he get one more chance with a tempban instead of jumping straight to kicking him from the game forever?

I might have misunderstood the ban (can't check as I'm currently without the mighty power of adminnery) but they're "fresh outta perma ban". That's another permaban. They were already on thin ice and decided to see how high they could jump.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:47 pm This isn't a constitutional republic. This is a videogame.

That's a dumb rebuttal. By that logic, why have appeals at all? Why have complaints? Why not just let admins do whatever the fuck they feel like with no recourse?

If we have a system that seeks to provide a fair way to appeal bans, which is obviously a good thing, why stop halfway instead of actually implementing the core principles of penal law (nulla poena sine lege, non reformatio in peius, et cetera)?

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:39 pm That's a dumb rebuttal. By that logic, why have appeals at all? Why have complaints? Why not just let admins do whatever the fuck they feel like with no recourse?

Your face is a dumb rebuttal.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:39 pm If we have a system that seeks to provide a fair way to appeal bans, which is obviously a good thing, why stop halfway instead of actually implementing the core principles of penal law?

Because that would be monumentally stupid.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:41 pm

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:39 pm That's a dumb rebuttal. By that logic, why have appeals at all? Why have complaints? Why not just let admins do whatever the fuck they feel like with no recourse?

Your face is a dumb rebuttal

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:39 pm If we have a system that seeks to provide a fair way to appeal bans, which is obviously a good thing, why stop halfway instead of actually implementing the core principles of penal law?

Because that would be monumentally stupid.

Calling something you disagree with stupid does not replace an actual argument. You're acting like a child, and that's pathetic.
I'm not going to argue with a dumbass who plugs his ears with his fingers and goes "lalalalala that's stupid lalalalal", especially one who has outright stated in the past he doesn't care about being right.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:39 pm instead of actually implementing the core principles of penal law?

A lot of them are already applied de facto and unknowingly, as they underlie the concept of fairness, but why not make it overt?

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 8:55 am This ban's unjustified solely on the grounds that this needs to be documented clearly in the main rules somewhere.

we could add it to the rules but it should really be common sense, and has been a pretty clear precedent
dont try to become the job your banned from while youre still banned

the best i can think of is just a rule thaat states that evading any type of ban will almost certainly net you a perma

It is already in the rules in that rule 0 is that admins can do whatever they want.
People will be banned for rule-skirting all the time and it's better that way than to have to follow the letter of a strict legal text before you can boot some shitter.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:49 pm People will be banned for rule-skirting all the time and it's better that way than to have to follow the letter of a strict legal text before you can boot some shitter.

No, it isn't. How is it better for a player to not even know whether something is against the rules or not than for there to be clear guidelines? That's one of the most absurd takes I've read yet.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:49 pm It is already in the rules in that rule 0 is that admins can do whatever they want.

As I understand it, rule 0 allows admins to not enforce a rule when it's in the interest of the round, not make up shit and enforce it.

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:47 pm we could add it to the rules but it should really be common sense

Your "common sense" is not the same as the next person's "common sense". If it were, we wouldn't need rules at all.

Oh this is juicy. Like an overly ripe lemon.

Let's break this down:

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:45 pm I'm not going to argue with a dumbass who plugs his ears with his fingers and goes "lalalalala that's stupid lalalalal", especially one who has outright stated in the past he doesn't care about being right.

So we have like two pieces of information here. One is:

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:45 pm ...especially one who has outright stated in the past he doesn't care about being right.

The quote you're referring to (thanks for letting me live in your head rent-free btw) is "I'd rather be happy than be right". It means that I'd rather not argue with someone who will die on a hill, or that if I'm proven wrong, it's best to not die on the hill myself.

Back to:

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:45 pm I'm not going to argue with a dumbass who plugs his ears with his fingers and goes "lalalalala that's stupid lalalalal"...

Congratulations, you followed my piece of advice. It's good advice. Well done.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:45 pm A lot of them are already applied de facto and unknowingly, as they underlie the concept of fairness, but why not make it overt?

'cos it's a terrible idea. You'll make the rules pages into a fucking book if you try to cover every single different facet of rule-breaking. Most players don't even read the rules as is. In the wiki. In a wiki game.

E: Oh yeah, using latin to appear smart instead of making funny sentences is cringe.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:57 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:49 pm People will be banned for rule-skirting all the time and it's better that way than to have to follow the letter of a strict legal text before you can boot some shitter.

No, it isn't. How is it better for a player to not even know whether something is against the rules or not than for there to be clear guidelines? That's one of the most absurd takes I've read yet.

Because being able to remove someone who makes the community worse because they're making it worse makes the game better than having to consult and then modify a hundred page document because they've cone up with a novel means to do it, it's pretty simple.
When things are this low stakes having a full legal process is silly and wastes everyone's time.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:57 pm Your "common sense" is not the same as the next person's "common sense". If it were, we wouldn't need rules at all.

I suppose, but if we put it in the rules, it might just be:

The Potential Rule wrote:Evasion of any type of ban (Job Bans, Temp Bans, Etc) will be met with a permament ban.

Would you write the rule in any different way?

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:57 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:49 pm It is already in the rules in that rule 0 is that admins can do whatever they want.

As I understand it, rule 0 allows admins to not enforce a rule when it's in the interest of the round, not make up shit and enforce it.

I think that specific part is from the admin policy book thingamajig rule 0, and not the general rule 0 in the da roolz that allow admins to take action when they need to for the server

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:01 pm Oh yeah, using latin to appear smart instead of making funny sentences is cringe.

Nobody's using Latin "to appear smart". I use Latin because these principles are known in Latin. If you copy and paste what I said in Latin into Google, you'll be taken to a Wikipedia that tells you what it is.
This is like saying that using English names of American people while talking in other languages instead of translating names is done "to appear smart", but with concepts instead of people.

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:04 pm

The Potential Rule wrote:Evasion of any type of ban (Job Bans, Temp Bans, Etc) will be met with a permament ban.

Would you write the rule in any different way?

Yeah. First, you should add that getting a job you're banned from via HoP constitutes evasion, for clarity. Second, I'd say it would be met with an increase to the ban's length, not necessarily a permanent ban, to give the admin imposing the evasion ban more leeway.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:01 pm 'cos it's a terrible idea. You'll make the rules pages into a fucking book if you try to cover every single different facet of rule-breaking. Most players don't even read the rules as is. In the wiki. In a wiki game.

That's why we keep the core rules part small, like it is now, and expand on the 'precedents' footnote. Besides, this is more for the appeals process than for actual in-game behaviour.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:42 pm

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:04 pm

The Potential Rule wrote:Evasion of any type of ban (Job Bans, Temp Bans, Etc) will be met with a permament ban.

Would you write the rule in any different way?

Yeah. First, you should add that getting a job you're banned from via HoP constitutes evasion, for clarity. Second, I'd say it would be met with an increase to the ban's length, not necessarily a permanent ban, to give the admin imposing the evasion ban more leeway.

Alright, so:
Evasion of any type of ban (Job Bans, Temp Bans, Etc) is not allowed and will be heavily punished.
Addendums to rule:

• Using the HoP to be promoted to the job you are banned from is considered evasion
  Acting as the job you are banned from (Lawyer Security, etc) is considered evasion

Anything Im missing?

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 4:17 pm Anything Im missing?

Not that I can see right now.

All the rules are completely useless anyway aside from rule 1.

Do you guys actually think people who play the game read the fuckin 6 pages of rules we have meticulously going over clauses and requirements and precedents?

No one except forumites, admins, and chronic TG fanatics read anything at all whatsoever related to this game. All these policy threads, all the little decisions made, even the rules themselves, it’s all completely irrelevant for 80%+ of the playerbase (that’s what percentage don’t use the forums based on polls).

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:54 pm All the rules are completely useless anyway aside from rule 1.

Do you guys actually think people who play the game read the fuckin 6 pages of rules we have meticulously going over clauses and requirements and precedents?

No one except forumites, admins, and chronic TG fanatics read anything at all whatsoever related to this game. All these policy threads, all the little decisions made, even the rules themselves, it’s all completely irrelevant for 80%+ of the playerbase (that’s what percentage don’t use the forums based on polls).

Real, rules are mostly written down common sense

job banned means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SELECT THIS ROLE AT ROUND START

if you want it to be clear to people that they arent allowed to DO IT AT ALL IN GAME, make sure they know it

common sense doesnt exist on the internet

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:54 pm Do you guys actually think people who play the game read the fuckin 6 pages of rules we have meticulously going over clauses and requirements and precedents?

No, I think people who are appealing permanent bans do.
We don't need a lot of rigour for decisions made in the heat of the moment by players and decisions made by admins on drumhead courts.
We do need that rigour in the appeals process, where we have ample time to timberpost and make sure we get every detail right.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:32 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 6:54 pm Do you guys actually think people who play the game read the fuckin 6 pages of rules we have meticulously going over clauses and requirements and precedents?

No, I think people who are appealing permanent bans do.
We don't need a lot of rigour for decisions made in the heat of the moment by players and decisions made by admins on drumhead courts.
We do need that rigour in the appeals process, where we have ample time to timberpost and make sure we get every detail right.

Permabans are not dished out lightly, nor in the heat of the moment. Also, codifying in a verbose and overly extended manner will restrain players from getting a ban reduced since they'll need to like justify the unfairness of their bans.

It solves no problems. What we need is clearer rules and more empathy.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:45 pm job banned means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SELECT THIS ROLE AT ROUND START

if you want it to be clear to people that they arent allowed to DO IT AT ALL IN GAME, make sure they know it

common sense doesnt exist on the internet

If we don't want you playing a role, why would we want you to immediately go to the HoP and swap into it.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:42 pm

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:45 pm job banned means YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SELECT THIS ROLE AT ROUND START

if you want it to be clear to people that they arent allowed to DO IT AT ALL IN GAME, make sure they know it

common sense doesnt exist on the internet

If we don't want you playing a role, why would we want you to immediately go to the HoP and swap into it.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:45 pm common sense doesnt exist on the internet

Think of it like a personality test.

People that pass the personality test appeal their permanent role bans explaining how they've done so good and understand how the game is about more than [dead man's switch maxcaps]/[delaminating the supermatter because your butt is hurt]/[going back to the cult and basically asking them to reconvert you after you're deconverted] and they get another chance, because they're using their playtime here as a vouch that they can play here.

People that fail that personality test go on to play on other servers trying to get a vouch.

Other servers have rules that tend to be far more restrictive than ours, and many players fail this step.

They don't always return.

Ouch, headmins aren't pulling punches this time around.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:46 pm common sense doesnt exist on the internet

I'm quite okay with people who lack common sense getting banned so the system works if you ask me.

ekaterina can complain all they want but it's never going to reform the system because it actually works well enough.