/tg/Station 13

Cargo Resprite PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77456


GET YER BINGO CARDS, FOLKS! GET YER BINGO CARDS HERE


(I'm too lazy to scramble these from last time)

we have an artstyle? news to me

i like them - personally i'd prefer it if the trousers/skirts could remain white but the added detail and a step away from piss yellow tops is something i can get onboard with.

edit: also i'm a little saddened by removing the ability to roll down the jumpsuits. it's an iconic look. 3 less pixels of sleeves is not a fair replacement imo.

kinnebian wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:57 pm we have an artstyle? news to me

I meant more of a "does this look out of place next to other stuff"

now that they fixed the weird hourglass thing i like them

Some of this bingo board feels a little too tailored for the given contributor :U

We also have no concrete, consistent art style, as no individual person has done a sweeping sprite change or created a style guide. Everyone talking about 'fitting the style' have no weight to stand on, as I think not even they can point to what is or isn't 'the style', because we have ultimately had years of various artists contributing that bring differing stylistic choices to their contributions before disappearing into the aether.

Unless they mean anything from the old days, in which case I think they're just pining for /vg/station.

cant wait for this to get posted in the manuelcord so i can tick the circlejerk about spriters/coders being bad

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 2:03 pm Some of this bingo board feels a little too tailored for the given contributor :U

Nah, this was made a while back for a different resprite PR.

Won't deny that it's a bit too heavy on the "coders bad" and not enough towards the middle (could probably use more instances of players being unnecessarily rude for instance) so I should probably redo it sometime.

edit:
I actually do like these uniforms, but I'm not the biggest fan of them replacing the current cargo uniforms. I feel like they'd look cool on the bitrunners though.

plz don't harass people that make contributions to the game it makes me sad.

everyone is entitled to their opinion and i can fully respect someone not liking a change and having criticism of it but tearing into someone with pages of screeching to the point that they need to take a break from the community because they drew a shirt is bad and we should not be doing that.

The jumpskirts don't have built-in booba.
I expected better.

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 2:35 pm The jumpskirts don't have built-in booba.
I expected better.

be the change you want to see

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 1:59 pm i like them - personally i'd prefer it if the trousers/skirts could remain white but the added detail and a step away from piss yellow tops is something i can get onboard with.

edit: also i'm a little saddened by removing the ability to roll down the jumpsuits. it's an iconic look. 3 less pixels of sleeves is not a fair replacement imo.

the only jumpsuit to do that is the qm one
the rest still roll down to pants, but its lazily done so it just cuts the rest of the shirt away instead of rolling it down like the current ones

resprites will continue until morale improves

Aw, I just realized this won't go well with the hard hat + hazard vest thing I tend to wear with the cargo uniform (there is no brownish hardhat)

maaaaaaaan

either the old or new cargo suits should be made the donk co. uniform so i can make a donk co shuttle dry dock ruin and have donk employees running around with their own uniforms and such.

Thank fuck I can have long pants now

Pretty hard to attack them in game when they play skyrat. I'm a big fan of the overcoat and not a big fan of the jeans. Not a fan of changing the color associated with them to this muddy brown.

There’s an awful lot of free spaces on that card

First resprite I've actively liked.

Crates can still fuck off, but these are dope. I think it'd be nice to keep some shorts in though.

I fucking love the ability to roll up the sleeves on jumpsuits and it should be god damn mandatory when making a resprite if it’s already pre-existing.

turned the UPS guys into the Sturmabteilung

i absolutely dig it

Like or dislike them, at least try to be constructive with your criticism. Don't be that asshole who says "These suck ass" without actually saying why you dislike them.

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:13 pm Like or dislike them, at least try to be constructive with your criticism. Don't be that asshole who says "These suck ass" without actually saying why you dislike them.

Has anyone said they suck ass or whatever? The github comments have been pretty civil all things considered. The closest comment I see is "awful pallete." The rest of the more negative ones are basically variations of "these are too dark," or "these don't really fit cargo"

too dark and too detailed for me

As much as I appreciate the resprite (because tbh the current ones look kinda buggy), this one just doesn't cut it. The color palette is darker than usual and the overall design appears out of place for the department, they look more like futuristic workout clothes rather than industrial uniforms.

I think the yellow uniform of cargo is extremely iconic, and these, as others have pointed out, are very dark brown. Also, maybe it's just me, but is quartermaster very hard to tell apart from the others? For reference, it is the one with the hat, right?

Overall, I don't see why cargo uniforms need to be completely changed. Their uniform could do with some cleaning up, but I don't think a complete remake of their appearance was warranted.

However, there's no point discussing it, because I know it will get merged regardless of what anyone says. I enjoy the cycle of overwhelming feedback being completely ignored for the whims of the very few. Why do we ask players to leave their feedback on PRs if it's been established time and time again that their opinion doesn't matter, especially with these sprite changes? Who do we make changes for in the first place if not the player? Gameplay-wise, you can argue that the players have to experience it in order to fully understand what you're doing (cloning removal), but the sprites are entirely surface level.

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:58 pm I think the yellow uniform of cargo is extremely iconic, and these, as others have pointed out, are very dark brown. Also, maybe it's just me, but is quartermaster very hard to tell apart from the others? For reference, it is the one with the hat, right?

Overall, I don't see why cargo uniforms need to be completely changed. Their uniform could do with some cleaning up, but I don't think a complete remake of their appearance was warranted.

However, there's no point discussing it, because I know it will get merged regardless of what anyone says. I enjoy the cycle of overwhelming feedback being completely ignored for the whims of the very few. Why do we ask players to leave their feedback on PRs if it's been established time and time again that their opinion doesn't matter, especially with these sprite changes? Who do we make changes for in the first place if not the player? Gameplay-wise, you can argue that the players have to experience it in order to fully understand what you're doing (cloning removal), but the sprites are entirely surface level.

That's part of what bothers me as well, this is the reason why it's listed as being good for the game (as per the github page):

shruggers idk, i think it looks good. cargo is now much more visually distinct, and has a better vision to it. quatermaster receiving a new look that makes him stand out is a good thing too, imo.

It's literally, "It's good because it is new and more visually distinct" (???????) It's all fluff words. It's like saying something is "artistic" or "bold."

Also, I've never felt like I've struggled to tell the QM apart because they almost always wear the QM cloak. I have a way harder time telling the RD apart from normal scientist than I ever have with the QM vs techies in my opinion.

yadayda I get we aren't a democracy but you can't merge sprite PRS that are overwhelmingly negative in feedback just to 180 and go "just post feedback on the github PR if you don't like something 0w0" just to ignore it and merge it anyways (see the crate and medkit PRs)

MAPPER enters stage left.
Notices SPRITER darkening uniform palette.
MAPPER(shocked): What are you doing? Where did you learn this?!?!
SPRITER(rebellious): I learned it from you, dad! I learnt it from watching you!
MAPPER realises the overabundance of dark floortiles in hand. Hides them in pocket.
Camera pans left until CODER is in view.
CODER(tired)[to MAPPER]: Where'd you learn that?
MAPPER(rebellious): I learned it from you, dad! I learnt it from watching you!
CODER slowly tilts his head to look at the darkmode IDE in his hand.
CODER reluctantly flips light switch. His skin and meat bits then fly from his skeleton like that one nuke gif with the fence.

Capsandi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:32 pm MAPPER enters stage left.
Notices SPRITER darkening uniform palette.
MAPPER(shocked): What are you doing? Where did you learn this?!?!
SPRITER(rebellious): I learned it from you, dad! I learnt it from watching you!
MAPPER realises the overabundance of dark floortiles in hand. Hides them in pocket.
Camera pans left until CODER is in view.
CODER(tired)[to MAPPER]: Where'd you learn that?
MAPPER(rebellious): I learned it from you, dad! I learnt it from watching you!
CODER slowly tilts his head to look at the darkmode IDE in his hand.
CODER reluctantly flips light switch. His skin and meat bits then fly from his skeleton like that one nuke gif with the fence.

This is fucking fantastic

Capsandi wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 11:32 pm MAPPER enters stage left.
Notices SPRITER darkening uniform palette.
MAPPER(shocked): What are you doing? Where did you learn this?!?!
SPRITER(rebellious): I learned it from you, dad! I learnt it from watching you!
MAPPER realises the overabundance of dark floortiles in hand. Hides them in pocket.
Camera pans left until CODER is in view.
CODER(tired)[to MAPPER]: Where'd you learn that?
MAPPER(rebellious): I learned it from you, dad! I learnt it from watching you!
CODER slowly tilts his head to look at the darkmode IDE in his hand.
CODER reluctantly flips light switch. His skin and meat bits then fly from his skeleton like that one nuke gif with the fence.

terminator 2: judgement day

https://youtu.be/1jv_7PXoFZA

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:14 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:13 pm Like or dislike them, at least try to be constructive with your criticism. Don't be that asshole who says "These suck ass" without actually saying why you dislike them.

Has anyone said they suck ass or whatever? The github comments have been pretty civil all things considered. The closest comment I see is "awful pallete." The rest of the more negative ones are basically variations of "these are too dark," or "these don't really fit cargo"

There were one or two comments of someone just saying something like "yikes" but the maintainers hid them.

I'm honestly of the mindset that comments should just be locked for it at this point. It's obvious most people don't like them and there's been a lot of constructive criticism as to why. Even if people are being constructive, there's only so many ways to word an opinion and eventually even constructive criticism starts to feel like an attack at certain volumes. I don't want a repeat of the crate bullshit.

I really like the trenchcoat thing. Can I get a white one that I can wear and recolour for my drip needs?

I don't know if obvious that most people don't like them and you agree that there is "constructive" reasons to not like them but they get slam merged anyways then what else is there to do.

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:26 am

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:14 pm

Vekter wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:13 pm Like or dislike them, at least try to be constructive with your criticism. Don't be that asshole who says "These suck ass" without actually saying why you dislike them.

Has anyone said they suck ass or whatever? The github comments have been pretty civil all things considered. The closest comment I see is "awful pallete." The rest of the more negative ones are basically variations of "these are too dark," or "these don't really fit cargo"

There were one or two comments of someone just saying something like "yikes" but the maintainers hid them.

I'm honestly of the mindset that comments should just be locked for it at this point. It's obvious most people don't like them and there's been a lot of constructive criticism as to why. Even if people are being constructive, there's only so many ways to word an opinion and eventually even constructive criticism starts to feel like an attack at certain volumes. I don't want a repeat of the crate bullshit.

constructive criticism doesn't matter because the development leads are openly antagonistic and will make a change just because they think it would be funny to upset people

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:07 am constructive criticism doesn't matter because the development leads are openly antagonistic and will make a change just because they think it would be funny to upset people

Or maybe they're antagonistic because a small but very loud fraction of the community loses their minds over every small change regardless of what it is so they've completely tuned out most sources of criticism as most of it is just noise anyway

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:47 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:07 am constructive criticism doesn't matter because the development leads are openly antagonistic and will make a change just because they think it would be funny to upset people

Or maybe they're antagonistic because a small but very loud fraction of the community loses their minds over every small change regardless of what it is so they've completely tuned out most sources of criticism as most of it is just noise anyway

That's not a hallmark of good development and MSO himself said that he doesn't approve of pigeonholing everyone as people that hate change for its own sake. Which is exactly what happens when oranges drops lovely lines such as "player opinion doesn't matter" and "there's nothing you can do I am in charge"

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:47 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:07 am constructive criticism doesn't matter because the development leads are openly antagonistic and will make a change just because they think it would be funny to upset people

Or maybe they're antagonistic because a small but very loud fraction of the community loses their minds over every small change regardless of what it is so they've completely tuned out most sources of criticism as most of it is just noise anyway

not an argument, you can't go ACTUALLY YOU'RE A BAD STINKY because then i can go PERHAPS...THE EGG CAME BEFORE THE CHICKEN and point out that maybe people are loud and angry with criticism because the development leads are fucking assholes to them regardless.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:03 am That's not a hallmark of good development and MSO himself said that he doesn't approve of pigeonholing everyone as people that hate change for its own sake. Which is exactly what happens when oranges drops lovely lines such as "player opinion doesn't matter" and "there's nothing you can do I am in charge"

You're not wrong. I'm giving him a reason as to why oranges is like that, not trying to justify that it's a good thing. Ideally we would be more open to change on both sides, but the unfortunate truth is that people online kind of suck and running a development community is hard.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:25 am not an argument, you can't go ACTUALLY YOU'RE A BAD STINKY because then i can go PERHAPS...THE EGG CAME BEFORE THE CHICKEN and point out that maybe people are loud and angry with criticism because the development leads are fucking assholes to them regardless.

It's a cycle. People hate maintainers because they don't listen to feedback because the feedback kind of sucks because people don't put effort into it because maintainers don't listen to feedback etc. etc.

It's impossible to pinpoint when it started but nothing is going to change it at this point other than stopping giving shitty feedback and hoping those in power in turn start taking feedback again. Otherwise we have zero impact on what happens at this point.

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:35 am

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:03 am That's not a hallmark of good development and MSO himself said that he doesn't approve of pigeonholing everyone as people that hate change for its own sake. Which is exactly what happens when oranges drops lovely lines such as "player opinion doesn't matter" and "there's nothing you can do I am in charge"

You're not wrong. I'm giving him a reason as to why oranges is like that, not trying to justify that it's a good thing. Ideally we would be more open to change on both sides, but the unfortunate truth is that people online kind of suck and running a development community is hard.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:25 am not an argument, you can't go ACTUALLY YOU'RE A BAD STINKY because then i can go PERHAPS...THE EGG CAME BEFORE THE CHICKEN and point out that maybe people are loud and angry with criticism because the development leads are fucking assholes to them regardless.

It's a cycle. People hate maintainers because they don't listen to feedback because the feedback kind of sucks because people don't put effort into it because maintainers don't listen to feedback etc. etc.

and the cycle will never change no matter how much you deep throat the greennames and scream at the players to kiss the ring, people trying their best to give good constructive criticism will still be ignored and mocked by oranges because he thinks its funny and he'll always find a way to justify being a miserable hobbit because that is who he is as a person

your criticism of other peoples criticism is not constructive and thus it is YOU who are the doody head!

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:40 am and the cycle will never change no matter how much you deep throat the greennames and scream at the players to kiss the ring, people trying their best to give good constructive criticism will still be ignored and mocked by oranges because he thinks its funny and he'll always find a way to justify being a miserable hobbit because that is who he is as a person

your criticism of other peoples criticism is not constructive and thus it is YOU who are the doody head!

I'm not asking anyone to deepthroat anyone, I'm saying "Maybe let's be nice to coders and spriters and give actual constructive feedback instead of shitting on them for wanting to change things we like".

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:42 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:40 am and the cycle will never change no matter how much you deep throat the greennames and scream at the players to kiss the ring, people trying their best to give good constructive criticism will still be ignored and mocked by oranges because he thinks its funny and he'll always find a way to justify being a miserable hobbit because that is who he is as a person

your criticism of other peoples criticism is not constructive and thus it is YOU who are the doody head!

I'm not asking anyone to deepthroat anyone, I'm saying "Maybe let's be nice to coders and spriters and give actual constructive feedback instead of shitting on them for wanting to change things we like".

okay chief, im still going to think you're a pud until i see you tell the coders "maybe let's try to understand the players criticism is not coming from a place of malice but concern for a game we mutually enjoy and try to address that and allay their worries instead of forcing through unpopular changes and telling them their lives have no value and post meme gifs and lock discussion and then make fun of them on the forum" in turn

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:45 am okay chief, im still going to think you're a pud until i see you tell the coders "maybe let's try to understand the players criticism is not coming from a place of malice but concern for a game we mutually enjoy and try to address that and allay their worries instead of forcing through unpopular changes and telling them their lives have no value and post meme gifs and lock discussion and then make fun of them on the forum" in turn

You're not in the Discord so I get that you don't actually see it, but I do. It's difficult to do so in a constructive manner because you have to worry about feeding into the drama and possibly being muted/banned from #coding-general, but I do my best to insist to people to rethink certain changes if I don't agree with them.

What it comes down to is that you can't make people listen to you. If they think an idea is a good one, they're going to want to do it even if you don't. It can often be more productive to try and convince them of changes they can make that lessen its impact or make it a better change. "I don't like this change" isn't valuable feedback to someone who's already been convinced it's a good change. "I don't like this part of this change" or "I don't like this thing about this change" can be valuable and help improve what's being done.

I agree that coders and maintainers should listen more to player feedback, but in a lot of cases, it's not valuable feedback to them.

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:49 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:45 am okay chief, im still going to think you're a pud until i see you tell the coders "maybe let's try to understand the players criticism is not coming from a place of malice but concern for a game we mutually enjoy and try to address that and allay their worries instead of forcing through unpopular changes and telling them their lives have no value and post meme gifs and lock discussion and then make fun of them on the forum" in turn

You're not in the Discord so I get that you don't actually see it, but I do. It's difficult to do so in a constructive manner because you have to worry about feeding into the drama and possibly being muted/banned from #coding-general, but I do my best to insist to people to rethink certain changes if I don't agree with them.

i got banned from the discord for asking oranges to stop deliberately @ spamming me

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:42 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:40 am and the cycle will never change no matter how much you deep throat the greennames and scream at the players to kiss the ring, people trying their best to give good constructive criticism will still be ignored and mocked by oranges because he thinks its funny and he'll always find a way to justify being a miserable hobbit because that is who he is as a person

your criticism of other peoples criticism is not constructive and thus it is YOU who are the doody head!

I'm not asking anyone to deepthroat anyone, I'm saying "Maybe let's be nice to coders and spriters and give actual constructive feedback instead of shitting on them for wanting to change things we like".

The first step for the divide between whitenames and greennames regarding the evolution of the 2d gas sim that runs on internet explorer is for the ones in the position in power to give thought to player opinion. Because no amount of "players being nice" is going to crack the shell of disdain while the vocal minority shits on free labour.

And that involves having the capacity to separate chaff suggestions from decent ones, and having the maturity to ignore stupid yelling. Both of which, in combination, are only found in a small handful of members of this community.

So it's never gonna happen. I called it quits and only sometimes try to voice my opinion on the github. At least now I got a cool MSO quote that I can throw at people when they say "you're just mad 'cos of change" when I try to provide honest, genuine constructive criticism.

what i'm seeing is a lot of ur mad.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:18 am The first step for the divide between whitenames and greennames regarding the evolution of the 2d gas sim that runs on internet explorer is for the ones in the position in power to give thought to player opinion. Because no amount of "players being nice" is going to crack the shell of disdain while the vocal minority shits on free labour.

And that involves having the capacity to separate chaff suggestions from decent ones, and having the maturity to ignore stupid yelling. Both of which, in combination, are only found in a small handful of members of this community.

So it's never gonna happen. I called it quits and only sometimes try to voice my opinion on the github. At least now I got a cool MSO quote that I can throw at people when they say "you're just mad 'cos of change" when I try to provide honest, genuine constructive criticism.

I can (and often do) give up, but if I can provide something that looks like I'm actually trying to improve things and possibly swing what I think is an awful change to be a not terrible one, I'll do it.

A good example is that they were originally just completely going to remove the ability for pAIs to move around at all, but most of us spoke up and got it changed to limiting their movement around the card. You don't often get things completely thrown out because that's not how people or ideas work, but you can compromise to something that everyone will enjoy.

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:53 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:49 am

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 2:45 am okay chief, im still going to think you're a pud until i see you tell the coders "maybe let's try to understand the players criticism is not coming from a place of malice but concern for a game we mutually enjoy and try to address that and allay their worries instead of forcing through unpopular changes and telling them their lives have no value and post meme gifs and lock discussion and then make fun of them on the forum" in turn

You're not in the Discord so I get that you don't actually see it, but I do. It's difficult to do so in a constructive manner because you have to worry about feeding into the drama and possibly being muted/banned from #coding-general, but I do my best to insist to people to rethink certain changes if I don't agree with them.

i got banned from the discord for asking oranges to stop deliberately @ spamming me

you're not banned quit lying. you're not in the audit log for bans.

You left

Vekter wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:47 am Or maybe they're antagonistic because a small but very loud fraction of the community loses their minds over every small change regardless of what it is so they've completely tuned out most sources of criticism as most of it is just noise anyway

Normally I agree with the "Don't be a dickhead to the people who are making the game you enjoy" thing, but I really can't in this case.

I've interacted with the author of this PR once in the past, purely just from a player to player perspective, and they were one of the most unpleasant people I've ever interacted with. To the point that I was getting DMs from people saying "Just ignore them, they're just kinda like that." This is not someone who is even remotely interested in our server, either, and usually just (in the past) pushed things here because they wouldn't get through downstream.

Add in the case in the Crate incident. We see that they and Imaginos are such close friends they have matching names in whatever server the Vouch was given in. There were some people being unpleasant sure, but the PR Author was as well, and if memory serves, either first or at least to someone who HAD been giving constructive criticism.

At which point Imaginos (you know, the one with a, in that very PR, displayed close personal connection to the PR author) just comes in and speedmerges it while the PR wasn't even complete and had things that needed work, still.

As I say, normally I agree with the "Don't be a dickhead to the people who are making the game you enjoy" thing; but we have here a case where peoples' Good Will has been burnt. And I don't think it's really fair to pin the blame on The People, at that point.

All of which is irrelevant anyway, because people ARE being constructive in this PR, so this entire conversation's a moot point.

oranges wrote: ↑Wed Aug 09, 2023 3:25 am what i'm seeing is a lot of ur mad.

Honestly, that bingo card is too easy. But you do have to admit that there is a big bias in some PRs. "Mayhem in a Bottle from bubblegum is a worthless loot and bleh bleh bleh," I recall you denied that immediately cause it is a good item. I am happy, you kept the bottle.

Talking about resprites

• old basic unpolished resprite crates, with everything became 15% bigger.

• the now-new bubble floor lights, that are just funky looking.

• the new normal dark grey hard-to-see light fixtures on a grey dark wall on top of a dark grey floortile

• now-new light emission being stuck on same squares even if the wall it's on is gone

• old atmos canisters resprites, where known pressure was impossible to know without scanning the canister, the little lights were singular dot

.
All in all, the lack of feedback is kind of is there. The authors just went to their safe places and continue to talk with their buddies about their work.

If I was to still bitch about coders.
I still don't understand how a lizard brain in a borg forgets how to read or say anything in draconic.