/tg/Station 13

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Oh boy

Damn sinful pulling out the precedents like a pro. Very rare sinful W.

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:40 pm Damn sinful pulling out the precedents like a pro. Very rare sinful W.

yeah, good on sinful for adding those. they were very relevant and helpful. it was a very good post.

as he'd say if he were still with us (rest in peace) i do not understand the culture of terry. reading those IC logs made my eyes bug out. they were almost entirely OOC. it hurt my sensitive thespian manuel sensibilities...

Hark knave! You have manhandled thy noblest of automata for the last time! to the gallows with thee!

I dont quite understand the ban and situation around it. I'm not sure how to feel about the use of "no escalation against sec" here when so much of the actual escalation is being done by a sec officer who has tooled up for the obvious purpose of killing them (laser rifles, eswords, etc). And calling the initial fight bad seems strange unless the policy is "non antags can never resist arrest and you're responsible for the greytiders dogpiling in too". But the actual arrest was the most obviously valid arrest of all time (beating up a borg on terry even as a joke is going to get you instantly stunbatonned, cuffed, and brigged for 10 minutes by the never-speaks-except-calling-for-backup gestapo and a terry player probbably knows that well) so, IDK.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:11 pm I dont quite understand the ban and situation around it. I'm not sure how to feel about the use of "no escalation against sec" here when so much of the actual escalation is being done by a sec officer who has tooled up for the obvious purpose of killing them (laser rifles, eswords, etc). And calling the initial fight bad seems strange unless the policy is "non antags can never resist arrest and you're responsible for the greytiders dogpiling in too". But the actual arrest was the most obviously valid arrest of all time (beating up a borg on terry even as a joke is going to get you instantly stunbatonned, cuffed, and brigged for 10 minutes by the never-speaks-except-calling-for-backup gestapo and a terry player probbably knows that well) so, IDK.

The first arrest doesn't have this secoff tooled up with a laser rifle or esword, which is why it was placed- taking action against The Most Obviously Valid Arrest Of All Time in the form of stripping an officer of their gear, shock touching em down, and then disposal-ing their gear (which they didn't know happened, so officer doesn't know if this assistant is still in possession of Le Batong) is pretty excessive- and thus validates the second (much more lethal) attempt. You can resist arrest in the form of running, as dictated by the rules, but "non-harmfully resisting" doesn't cover "I beat them up, stole their gear, and trashed it" imo.

i was curious to know exactly what “playing around with the borg” exactly meant. the playing around was getting a banana cream pie thrown at him and then proceeding to slash the cyborg with a motherfucking CLAYMORE. not exactly the kind of “playing around” i expected.

the more interesting part though is how he got the claymore. he was going around with shock touch just picking fights with random people. or at least that’s what i get from the logs- i need to look at em more closely to confidently say whether or not he was escalation baiting. he did this to the chaplain, which is how he got the claymore, and to a lizard named Hates-The-Stun. (If he did it because of the lizard’s name then… fucking based honestly.)

I don’t like the precedent this note/ban/whatever sets, though. You should have a right to non-lethally resist arrest. On the flipside, was the sec officer in the right to laser them down? Maybe. They did have shock touch, which makes them EXTREMELY dangerous. It’s not like you can easily remove their shock touch. You either have to laser them down or use your disabler. Even then I wouldn’t be comfortable taking a guy with shock touch into the brig alive.

At the end of the day… I’d honestly call this an IC issue. Sec officer lost after chasing the guy like an enraged bull. He pulled out a desword which can nullify sec protections as sinful pointed out. But you should totally be fucking drilling that guy for escalation baiting a few folks with shock touch (barring the sec officer) and also escalation baiting with the borg. Has nothing to do with resisting arrests, IMO.

if for whatever reason escalation policy doesn’t make this situation allowed, i think it should be changed.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:43 pm I don’t like the precedent this note/ban/whatever sets, though. You should have a right to non-lethally resist arrest. On the flipside, was the sec officer in the right to laser them down? Maybe. They did have shock touch, which makes them EXTREMELY dangerous. It’s not like you can easily remove their shock touch. You either have to laser them down or use your disabler. Even then I wouldn’t be comfortable taking a guy with shock touch into the brig alive.

yeah, non-lethally avoiding arrest is fine, and doing so shouldn't escalate to lethals without proper cause, but the claymore wielding cyborg slayer stripped the secoff and flushed their gear. even on manuel i wouldn't really blink at sec escalating to lethals to contain them at that point. not with antag gear, that would be too far. but there is the off-chance that they kept a baton and handcuffs or whatever. it's hard to say for certain without knowing what the thought process of the secoff was.

Escalation Policy wrote:In resisting arrest, non-antagonists should not loot officers and should not detain or incapacitate officers any longer than is necessary to escape or explain themselves.

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:40 pm Damn sinful pulling out the precedents like a pro. Very rare sinful W.

I think he’s ready for admin

this is an ic issue

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:41 pm

Lacran wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:40 pm Damn sinful pulling out the precedents like a pro. Very rare sinful W.

i do not understand the culture of terry. reading those IC logs made my eyes bug out. they were almost entirely OOC. it hurt my sensitive thespian manuel sensibilities...

terry is the closest thing i've seen on tg to hippiestation, except it has slightly more rules and MUCH more capable admins

unless kraven or brick are playing on sybil, its the only server i see with any real shenanigans these days.

everyone immediately arming themselves with a cleaver is fucking awesome

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:43 pm i was curious to know exactly what “playing around with the borg” exactly meant. the playing around was getting a banana cream pie thrown at him and then proceeding to slash the cyborg with a motherfucking CLAYMORE. not exactly the kind of “playing around” i expected.

the more interesting part though is how he got the claymore. he was going around with shock touch just picking fights with random people. or at least that’s what i get from the logs- i need to look at em more closely to confidently say whether or not he was escalation baiting. he did this to the chaplain, which is how he got the claymore, and to a lizard named Hates-The-Stun. (If he did it because of the lizard’s name then… fucking based honestly.)

I don’t like the precedent this note/ban/whatever sets, though. You should have a right to non-lethally resist arrest. On the flipside, was the sec officer in the right to laser them down? Maybe. They did have shock touch, which makes them EXTREMELY dangerous. It’s not like you can easily remove their shock touch. You either have to laser them down or use your disabler. Even then I wouldn’t be comfortable taking a guy with shock touch into the brig alive.

At the end of the day… I’d honestly call this an IC issue. Sec officer lost after chasing the guy like an enraged bull. He pulled out a desword which can nullify sec protections as sinful pointed out. But you should totally be fucking drilling that guy for escalation baiting a few folks with shock touch (barring the sec officer) and also escalation baiting with the borg. Has nothing to do with resisting arrests, IMO.

nonlethally avoiding arrest means slipping the officer and running away while screaming git gud

not full stripping him and then peacing out at your leisure

ic issue, bad faith from sec officer (wordless baton) came first


mostly because if you arnt type baiting by telling people why you are arresting them as sec and then batoning them when they try to respond, you arnt doing it right.

The lack of communication losing metaprots precedent is to protect players for retaliating in situations where it's not immediately obvious why they are being attacked by security and to encourage security to clarify in scenarios where it isn't clear, not give players something to clutch at as a last resort when they get chased. Sec witnessed him hurt a borg, attacked during this, and any tider can put two and two together as to why they're being batonned from this.

Playing keep away with an officer's gear all shift (no way of knowing it was trashed) and then wondering why they're coming at them with lethals when they've proven stuns aren't getting them anywhere with you is a "fuck around and find out" situation. The antag gear is irrelevant since the player had nothing but reason to believe it was just an officer (rightfully) pissed about being looted by him repeatedly. This is textbook escalation bait and the note is warranted.

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:48 pm

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 3:11 pm I dont quite understand the ban and situation around it. I'm not sure how to feel about the use of "no escalation against sec" here when so much of the actual escalation is being done by a sec officer who has tooled up for the obvious purpose of killing them (laser rifles, eswords, etc). And calling the initial fight bad seems strange unless the policy is "non antags can never resist arrest and you're responsible for the greytiders dogpiling in too". But the actual arrest was the most obviously valid arrest of all time (beating up a borg on terry even as a joke is going to get you instantly stunbatonned, cuffed, and brigged for 10 minutes by the never-speaks-except-calling-for-backup gestapo and a terry player probbably knows that well) so, IDK.

The first arrest doesn't have this secoff tooled up with a laser rifle or esword, which is why it was placed- taking action against The Most Obviously Valid Arrest Of All Time in the form of stripping an officer of their gear, shock touching em down, and then disposal-ing their gear (which they didn't know happened, so officer doesn't know if this assistant is still in possession of Le Batong) is pretty excessive- and thus validates the second (much more lethal) attempt. You can resist arrest in the form of running, as dictated by the rules, but "non-harmfully resisting" doesn't cover "I beat them up, stole their gear, and trashed it" imo.

Disposalling the gear is the bit I was missing, I thought it just got dropped on the spot as a taunt, situation makes a lot more sense now.

The correct answer is not to disposal the gear because then you risk it falling into someone else`s hands, instead you should spray acid on it until it melts.

"Nonharmfully resisting arrest"

01:46:23 ATTACK StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) stun attacked DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 96.4) (126, 137, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:46:25 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) attempted to punch StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) (NEWHP: 90.2) (125, 139, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:46:27 ATTACK StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) attacked [firelock] with the stun baton (126, 140, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:46:27 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) attacked StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 90.2) (127, 141, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:46:27 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 77.7) (127, 141, 2) Central Primary Hallway

so I guess you all are ok with using the shock touch the moment a stun baton comes down to you for obviously harming the cyborg huh

shock touch is a 15 burn damage disarm , it is not used for the damage...EVER (unless you upgrade it with power and then it becomes an aoe chain lightening gimmick that a group of people can use to beat another group of people, but nobody cares that i added that i guess )

infact shock touch was just recently promoted to being the only genetics spell that can disarm people, cryokinesis had its slip nerfed so it no longer does a knockdown/drop items when you run over the ice.


genetics probably needs more ways to nonlethally fight rather than uh...(lol hulk xd)

a single shock touch is whatever I care more abt the stripping and disposalling of gear

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:17 pm The lack of communication losing metaprots precedent is to protect players for retaliating in situations where it's not immediately obvious why they are being attacked by security and to encourage security to clarify in scenarios where it isn't clear, not give players something to clutch at as a last resort when they get chased. Sec witnessed him hurt a borg, attacked during this, and any tider can put two and two together as to why they're being batonned from this.

Playing keep away with an officer's gear all shift (no way of knowing it was trashed) and then wondering why they're coming at them with lethals when they've proven stuns aren't getting them anywhere with you is a "fuck around and find out" situation. The antag gear is irrelevant since the player had nothing but reason to believe it was just an officer (rightfully) pissed about being looted by him repeatedly. This is textbook escalation bait and the note is warranted.

this is a really good take, something ive taken away from you over our time on tg is that communication is important no matter WHAT server you are playing on. i should probably thank you for not immediately blue space tomato bombing me after i sliced you in the hallway a couple weeks ago

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:17 pm The lack of communication losing metaprots precedent is to protect players for retaliating in situations where it's not immediately obvious why they are being attacked by security and to encourage security to clarify in scenarios where it isn't clear, not give players something to clutch at as a last resort when they get chased. Sec witnessed him hurt a borg, attacked during this, and any tider can put two and two together as to why they're being batonned from this.

It's like shoving an officer and then claiming their protections are void because they silently pulled out a baton instead of stopping to type out a paragraph explaining how you're under arrest for assaulting an officer.

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:07 pm a single shock touch is whatever I care more abt the stripping and disposalling of gear

they did it multiple times

01:46:27 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 77.7) (127, 141, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:46:43 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) attacked StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 77.7) (89, 126, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:46:43 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 65.2) (89, 126, 2) Central Primary Hallway
01:47:02 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) attacked StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65.2) (74, 134, 2) Port Primary Hallway
01:47:02 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 52.7) (74, 134, 2) Port Primary Hallway
01:47:03 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) punched StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) (NEWHP: 47.1) (76, 134, 2) Port Primary Hallway
01:47:19 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) attacked StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 47.1) (54, 135, 2) Arrival Shuttle Hallway
01:47:19 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 34.6) (54, 135, 2) Arrival Shuttle Hallway
01:49:45 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) attacked StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65.2) (85, 146, 2) Storage Wing
01:49:45 ATTACK DoggoTheCrusader/(Kyle Konoszewik) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on StarrmanN/(Wilhelm Von Clausewitz) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 52.7) (85, 146, 2) Storage Wing

all of you should actually read the attack logs before commenting, saying that the security officer was the one at fault was very dumb when the guy literally was swording a borg and then instantly went to harmful touch when sec batoned him once to stop him

I have no reason to sugarcoat myself to any of you who are saying the sec officer was at fault for chasing him and lethaling when kyle basically self-antaged and enough evidence was in the appeal (multiple shock touchs in logs, admitting to stealing and disposaling of sec equipment in the appeal, and literally claymoring a Borg in a public area, near where the sec officer was) that it's very clear that it was Kyle who escalated first and the security officer had every right to treat him as dangerous

this damn "sec needs to tell people they are under arrest" policy needs to be looked at, you guys are unironically using the letter of the policy to justify this like how you accuse admins of doing the same

Upon looking at the note I believe note should be changed because what happened was worse than how omega described it

MooCow12 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:55 pm shock touch is a 15 burn damage disarm , it is not used for the damage...EVER (unless you upgrade it with power and then it becomes an aoe chain lightening gimmick that a group of people can use to beat another group of people, but nobody cares that i added that i guess )

infact shock touch was just recently promoted to being the only genetics spell that can disarm people, cryokinesis had its slip nerfed so it no longer does a knockdown/drop items when you run over the ice.


genetics probably needs more ways to nonlethally fight rather than uh...(lol hulk xd)

Even if you say it's just a 15 damage disarm how would the officer know you were just disarming him when he's also taking damage, multiple times even

How would the sec officer know im not gonna drag them into maint and take off their radio and rr when i try to stam crit / cuff them, stun combat is never seperate from lethal combat