/tg/Station 13

Acting cap is informed that the QM refused to attempt to sort let alone deliver mail.
When a baton is stolen and the acting called a retard the QM suffers from Chat shit get shot
Acting gets hit with a command ban that the admin claims is a perma one

the appeal

I have never heard of the whole meantime words = valid. I've only seen that for Ligger. I have seen some people get lynched who happened to say retard, but it's because they were being such a gigantic douche that security didn't even bother to try and stop some of the crew from lynching the guy 1945 Mussolini style. Speaking of, we really need a gallows/noose in-game.

Seeing as there were five security personnel (not including the warden) it probably would have been better to leave, get a warrant for arrest, then return with several officers to arrest the person. No idea how the round was at that point, though

I've absolutely been told that I can beat the shit out of people for calling me a retard (and vice versa), but you can't RR people for it or anything.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:55 pm Seeing as there were five security personnel (not including the warden) it probably would have been better to leave, get a warrant for arrest, then return with several officers to arrest the person. No idea how the round was at that point, though

after that point it was a bloody mess. A riot broke out amongst the crew when the CMO was arrested and demoted. Everyone loves a good riot. Security even used lethal force on people swinging signs and tear gassed them. They also flashbanged and shot up medical before that.

There were also people using smoothbore pistols to take potshots at sec, so it wasn't entirely peaceful.

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:20 am

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 11:55 pm Seeing as there were five security personnel (not including the warden) it probably would have been better to leave, get a warrant for arrest, then return with several officers to arrest the person. No idea how the round was at that point, though

after that point it was a bloody mess. A riot broke out amongst the crew when the CMO was arrested and demoted. Everyone loves a good riot. Security even used lethal force on people swinging signs and tear gassed them. They also flashbanged and shot up medical before that.

There were also people using smoothbore pistols to take potshots at sec, so it wasn't entirely peaceful.

Sounds like a lot of fun

Thranos wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:20 am (I would like to note that in the event of log diving, he misspelled it at least once)

For what it's worth if I was captain (even acting) and a QM told me off for telling them to do their job I'd ABSOLUTELY give them a nonlethal smack and tell them to get their shit together. If they did what they did to me here I'd have probably dome the same shit as well.

Part of your job when roleplaying command is following said chain of command. He probably could've had security do it, but I'd be 50/50 on just doing it myself in a similar fashion.

If I was the captain, "Do your job -> "Fuck off" -> Single baton -> Batonned in response, confiscated, thrown out and repeatedly called a retard is 10000000% a scenario where I'd drop the hammer for insubordination. Possibly mutiny.

leaking my own bus post for this one:

what happened is manuelmins sometimes looked the other way when people saying the n-word and shit got round removed and now it has been ruined because this small understanding has grown to encompass all bad words and is taken for granted instead of being a special use case for rare situations

i really am not a fan of this muddying the ic waters shit by taking ic actions which are motivated by ooc behaviour. it's metagamey and stupid. the bad no-no lizard word is a special case because we needed to reach a compromise on that one word specifically, otherwise it would fall under the same school of thought.

it leads to absolute dogass gameplay because someone will choose to ignore all the nuance of an ic situation to immediately jump to oocly motivated violence because they think it's an instant gotcha to get rid of someone that has done something to upset them. it's just totally shit behaviour so far removed from any semblance of rp or good faith that ruins rounds because it turns a small problem that needs a quick "please don't do that" bwoink into a massive clusterfuck of oocly motivated conflict that causes way more ahelps and takes a year to unravel because some players shit in their hands and clapped over nothing and every bystander got caught in the splash zone.

if you're initiating a conflict then it should be for an ic reason: someone insulted your character icly, and you are icly responding to that by roleplaying as your upset character. this is good. it creates a story of ic conflict. it's not an excuse to drop all the nuance of a situation to use the fact that someone used a bad word to validate oocly motivated violence to correct their behaviour or remove them from the game because you feel they need to be punished on an ooc level. especially if you're the one to have instigated the situation in the first place.

it's also worth noting that the QM in this instance was told to reduce their usage of "retard" as part of the ruling.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:06 am I've absolutely been told that I can beat the shit out of people for calling me a retard (and vice versa), but you can't RR people for it or anything.

Yes, but this is quite different from "valid"

It is absolutely fine to escalate against. But when one says valid, they imply that you can bypass escalation policy entirely to kill them.

Escalation means "bitch called me retard so I stole his shoes and id".

Valid means I deepfry your brain and feed it to the resident lizard.

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:45 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:06 am I've absolutely been told that I can beat the shit out of people for calling me a retard (and vice versa), but you can't RR people for it or anything.

Yes, but this is quite different from "valid"

It is absolutely fine to escalate against. But when one says valid, they imply that you can bypass escalation policy entirely to kill them.

I mean in this case he was demoting an insubordinate and I'd usually crack out lethals for that just to maximize my own safety, especially since it's a member of command. tgstation is really dogshit when it comes to policy for demoting other members of command and so falls back on general policy (just like in this scenario) so I generally just say "fuck it", dome them and revive them.

I've always been of the opinion that a captain rightfully demoting a member of command should be free from escalation rules. Too often it just turns into "lmao I outrobust you so you're not captain anymore" which is just stupid.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:55 am

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:45 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:06 am I've absolutely been told that I can beat the shit out of people for calling me a retard (and vice versa), but you can't RR people for it or anything.

Yes, but this is quite different from "valid"

It is absolutely fine to escalate against. But when one says valid, they imply that you can bypass escalation policy entirely to kill them.

I mean in this case he was demoting an insubordinate and I'd usually crack out lethals for that just to maximize my own safety, especially since it's a member of command. tgstation is really dogshit when it comes to policy for demoting other members of command and so falls back on general policy (just like in this scenario) so I generally just say "fuck it", dome them and revive them.

If you're too unrobust to demote someone without killing them with a goddamn firearm get sec to help you ya nimrod.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:10 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:55 am

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:45 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:06 am I've absolutely been told that I can beat the shit out of people for calling me a retard (and vice versa), but you can't RR people for it or anything.

Yes, but this is quite different from "valid"

It is absolutely fine to escalate against. But when one says valid, they imply that you can bypass escalation policy entirely to kill them.

I mean in this case he was demoting an insubordinate and I'd usually crack out lethals for that just to maximize my own safety, especially since it's a member of command. tgstation is really dogshit when it comes to policy for demoting other members of command and so falls back on general policy (just like in this scenario) so I generally just say "fuck it", dome them and revive them.

If you're too unrobust to demote someone without killing them with a goddamn firearm get sec to help you ya nimrod.

Fuck that, I'm the captain. Any command member who's gotten me to the point where I'm demoting them is getting THE BULLET. Corporate fascism is the flavour of the day.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:10 am If you're too unrobust to demote someone without killing them with a goddamn firearm get sec to help you ya nimrod.

But it’s such a power move to kill people who are in insubordinate.

“Hey, can you actually do your job?”
“No.”

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:14 am

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:10 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:55 am

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:45 am

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:06 am I've absolutely been told that I can beat the shit out of people for calling me a retard (and vice versa), but you can't RR people for it or anything.

Yes, but this is quite different from "valid"

It is absolutely fine to escalate against. But when one says valid, they imply that you can bypass escalation policy entirely to kill them.

I mean in this case he was demoting an insubordinate and I'd usually crack out lethals for that just to maximize my own safety, especially since it's a member of command. tgstation is really dogshit when it comes to policy for demoting other members of command and so falls back on general policy (just like in this scenario) so I generally just say "fuck it", dome them and revive them.

If you're too unrobust to demote someone without killing them with a goddamn firearm get sec to help you ya nimrod.

Fuck that, I'm the captain. Any command member who's gotten me to the point where I'm demoting them is getting THE BULLET. Corporate fascism is the flavour of the day.

I try, fam, I try so hard. Why do people shoot themselves agressively in the foot? With a nine millimeter.

Pronoums are Glock/43

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:19 am

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:10 am If you're too unrobust to demote someone without killing them with a goddamn firearm get sec to help you ya nimrod.

But it’s such a power move to kill people who are in insubordinate.

“Hey, can you actually do your job?”
“No.”

The smoke kinda looked like a heart and it made me inagine a modern cupit that instead of arrows uses an SSG 08 to spread looove.

I wanna say MRP/manual issue but wanting to demote someone for not doing their job as the acting captain and then personally doing it yourself after they call you names is worthy of even HRP roleplay.

Atleast the demotion was fine, killing I dont know maybe some more stuff happened.

edit: bruh why didnt the ban message say they used antagonistic gear (a fucking makarov) to kill the QM I understand acting captain is above the law but that paints a dirty picture

i understand dereliction of duty is shit, but thats mostly an issue with engineers and viro, focus your rage on those jobs not the qm just not sending people their mail when they can just walk to cargo and if they have any.

The title of this thread is cringe.

MooCow12 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:36 am I wanna say MRP/manual issue but wanting to demote someone for not doing their job as the acting captain and then personally doing it yourself after they call you names is worthy of even HRP roleplay.

Atleast the demotion was fine, killing I dont know maybe some more stuff happened.

edit: bruh why didnt the ban message say they used antagonistic gear (a fucking makarov) to kill the QM I understand acting captain is above the law but that paints a dirty picture

i understand dereliction of duty is shit, but thats mostly an issue with engineers and viro, focus your rage on those jobs not the qm just not sending people their mail when they can just walk to cargo and if they have any.

yeah the core of the ban is the mismanagement of escalation due to what seems to be one party being under the impression that one particular insult is worth ramping the escalation factor up several degrees immediately. this wouldn't be a conversation if the acting captain had used their increased access to walk to security, get a nonlethal weapon, and demote the QM for insubordination instead of pulling a 9mm pistol on him for xbox live banter.

Honestly after seeing the logs and such its clear that the acting cap escalated to far

I have no idea where they got the idea that you can't call people a retard for assaulting you.

I don't really know why admins would need to bwoink the player that called Thranos a retard about it.

I always held the opinion at least in the modern use of retard it's a general insult regarding bad faith incompetence, it's not intended to put down people who are genuinely struggling but doing their best. It's intended to put down people who are deliberately doing the wrong thing when they are completely capable of doing otherwise.

A captain killing you with a Makarov for not sorting mail is being a retard. I get the misunderstanding around slurs kind of, except I'm pretty sure I've seen Thranos call people retarded.

A player genuinely struggling and clearly doing their best shouldn't be called retarded.

As I see it, the execution was justified under the capital crime of mutiny. You can't just kick the captain out of a part of his own station. The captain should've just said that instead of admitting to being such a huge pussy he felt the need to kill someone over being called a retard.

Also since when is Archie an admin?

Thranos wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:24 am Usage of "retard" to imply impaired intelligence or cognitive function is a slur last time I checked.

You can have that opinion on what constitutes a slur but rulings aren't made based off of your opinion, they're based off of existing rulings and policy. Existing policy, as you've already been told by several admins, is that "retard" is not a slur.

BrolyButterfingers wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:09 am I've always been of the opinion that a captain rightfully demoting a member of command should be free from escalation rules. Too often it just turns into "lmao I outrobust you so you're not captain anymore" which is just stupid.

Valid demotions are already protected from escalation (something I find immersion-breaking). Retaliation is realistic. If you shoot at the king (a command member in this instance), you better not miss. Why would you expect people you're taking action against to just... let you? Also see ban precedent below:

Striders13 wrote:You need a very good reason to demote somebody when playing head of staff.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:13 am Then you start batoning and get your shit pushed in response and your baton confiscated.

"Confiscated" is a funny way to say "stolen by a direct subordinate".

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:25 am Headmin clarification

Can I have some headmin clarification too? I'd like to see a policy ruling on how "real" acting captains are. Sometimes they're treated like actual captains and sometimes they're treated like a tider with AA. Will we get a Timberpost from Timberpoes?

Does headmin clarification come with the salad or do you need to get a soup?

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:18 am As I see it, the execution was justified under the capital crime of mutiny. You can't just kick the captain out of a part of his own station. The captain should've just said that instead of admitting to being such a huge pussy he felt the need to kill someone over being called a retard.

That's not a mutiny. Mutiny is where you try to overthrow the captain or do something like seced from the station.

The qm was insubordinate over mail, resisted arrest and stole a weapon. There was no capital crime there.

The only reason the qm threw out the captain was because they were batoned. At worst they resisted an arrest, at best they just defended themselves.


The reasonable move here is to arrest that player, not kill them.

Lacran wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:54 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:18 am As I see it, the execution was justified under the capital crime of mutiny. You can't just kick the captain out of a part of his own station. The captain should've just said that instead of admitting to being such a huge pussy he felt the need to kill someone over being called a retard.

That's not a mutiny. Mutiny is where you try to overthrow the captain or do something like seced from the station.

Secede from the station? You mean making it so there's a part that isn't under to the captain's authority? ... in other words, exactly what happened?

dendydoom wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:37 am

what happened is manuelmins sometimes looked the other way when people saying the n-word and shit got round removed and now it has been ruined because this small understanding has grown to encompass all bad words and is taken for granted instead of being a special use case for rare situations

I can't help but feel that I'm partly responsible for this outcome

Capsandi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:31 am Does headmin clarification come with the salad or do you need to get a soup?

Depends on the day of the week. Considering people are chronically online and in different timezones, it's a crapshoot.

alright but why the fuck are there like 6 different people in that thread wtf

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:37 am

Lacran wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:54 am

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:18 am As I see it, the execution was justified under the capital crime of mutiny. You can't just kick the captain out of a part of his own station. The captain should've just said that instead of admitting to being such a huge pussy he felt the need to kill someone over being called a retard.

That's not a mutiny. Mutiny is where you try to overthrow the captain or do something like seced from the station.

Secede from the station? You mean making it so there's a part that isn't under to the captain's authority? ... in other words, exactly what happened?

So if a captain goes to the bar, hits the bartender and gets thrown out. That's the bar declaring it's an independent authority and staging a mutiny?

Cargo didn't secede the qm denied an order and retaliated against being struck. Secession isn't one person refusing one order. It's also not throwing someone out of somewhere for hitting people.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:18 am As I see it, the execution was justified under the capital crime of mutiny. You can't just kick the captain out of a part of his own station. The captain should've just said that instead of admitting to being such a huge pussy he felt the need to kill someone over being called a retard.

No one is arguing whether the captain was wrong to pursue conflict. The ban was due to overescalation.

Also, capital crime? lmfao laugh at this user.

People acting like retard is a word on par with the n-word are chronically online retards who should probably be removed from the servers (and the internet) for their own good.

Or to put it in a more constructive manner: Acting like Retard is on par with the N-Word is not only just utterly insane, but also kinda fucking shitty? Like my brother in christ you are absolutely fucking downplaying that word by claiming Retard is on its level.

When someone calls you a retard, you have two paths. You can choose to throw a tantrum like a spoiled child who just got told they have to pick between the PS5 or the new Xbox, throw all of your toys out of the pram and just generally be a miserable twat that nobody wants to be around.

Or you can just shrug it off as you do any other insult. Call them a cunt, call them a retard back, tell them they're a shitbrained fuckwit.

Which one's gonna make you happier at the end of the day?

It is entirely possible that multiple admins are taking a rule 0 stance in regards to words like "retard". If that is the case then we would benefit from re-evaluating rule 11, specifically on what the player expectation for it is. However that also opens up a can of worms in itself.

Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:54 am It is entirely possible that multiple admins are taking a rule 0 stance in regards to words like "retard". If that is the case then we would benefit from re-evaluating rule 11, specifically on what the player expectation for it is. However that also opens up a can of worms in itself.

I disaproove of rule zeroing that. There's a headmin ruling over that, and using retard is pretty prolific. We don't need reasons for the checking adminwho meme to be real.

A policy thread to re-evaluate rule 11 would only serve to give retard the treatment nigger or ligger got, 'cos as it stands when and where you can use it is pretty well defined, much like nigger (don't) and ligger (valid) are.

Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:54 am It is entirely possible that multiple admins are taking a rule 0 stance in regards to words like "retard". If that is the case then we would benefit from re-evaluating rule 11, specifically on what the player expectation for it is. However that also opens up a can of worms in itself.

i have and will speak to people for excessively saying it when someone ahelps it because it makes them uncomfortable. it's never not been a very easy situation where i go "hey, sorry but could you please use other insults for a bit?" and they say "yeah sure" and i say "cool thanks for your time" and then the game continues with no further action necessary. no note, no ban, no pile of corpses, just a polite request for the comfort of other players.

what bothers me is when people are involved in a heated IC situation where someone speaks out of frustration and then the pretence of rp is dropped because certain players are rubbing their hands together and licking their lips because now they get to kill someone for an ooc reason to get the resolution they want from the IC situation, it ultimately detracts from the rp and ruins the actual interesting conflict happening in the situation, and 9 times out of 10 we now have a complicated investigative ahelp for bad escalation. it's just unnecessary, players should not be punishing other players in the ic space for what they perceive as ooc rule breaks.

Fren256 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:19 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:37 am

what happened is manuelmins sometimes looked the other way when people saying the n-word and shit got round removed and now it has been ruined because this small understanding has grown to encompass all bad words and is taken for granted instead of being a special use case for rare situations

I can't help but feel that I'm partly responsible for this outcome

admins will use their discretion in those situations to judge what is best for the round using the access to the information and oversight they have. it's best in these situations to ahelp it and clear it with them first. i say this because if this sort of thing is taken for granted by players rather than a greenlit exception to the rule it will eventually generate enough noise that the management will come down here and take it away from you forever and we will have to rule very differently in these situations.

Drag wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:54 am It is entirely possible that multiple admins are taking a rule 0 stance in regards to words like "retard". If that is the case then we would benefit from re-evaluating rule 11, specifically on what the player expectation for it is. However that also opens up a can of worms in itself.

It's also relevant, in that regard, that player expectation might be different between Manuel and the rest of tgstation.

I am honestly trying to find instances of us taking a rule 0 stance to either the R-slur specifically or any others. I was discussing this with Oranges earlier and if the argument is that we have turned a blind eye to people being killed over words, then sure, that sends a message in its own right but is much harder for me to find evidence for (so if anyone has any specific examples that'd be great).

The closest I can find is admins permitting people getting dumpstered over the L-word even before this term's ruling, however even that was not allowed to be taken to round removal.

why is everybody peanutting on this ban in the appeal

When you look at retard it's fine to use unless you're using it for the specific case of being bigoted. Hell man even some admins use it.

Not sure why people are blowing it up so much but it has never been valid or anything. Would be interested in seeing examples of it ever being valid but if admins are a oking people murdering for it they're cringe

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:59 am why is everybody peanutting on this ban in the appeal

my second bus leak of the thread

dendydoom wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:09 pm

kinnebian wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:59 am why is everybody peanutting on this ban in the appeal

my second bus leak of the thread

regular timberpoes protege in the making

It doesn't even matter if we consider it a slur or not, because we aren't allowed to enforce rule 11 based on words alone without context.

Also what a thinly veiled power trip holy fuck.

They go into cargo yell at the qm, the qm tells them to fuck off so they ATTACK THE QM?

The qm fights back (as expected) so they call a coup???

Please correct me if I'm wrong here or if I'm not following the logs correctly or smth

If this is the situation and i have correctly understood it this is some fucking insane demotion baiting occurring

Even before retard word involvement

And people say Manuel isn't like our other servers.

It's an MRP Terry.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:30 pm Also what a thinly veiled power trip holy fuck. They go into cargo yell at the qm, the qm tells them to fuck off so they ATTACK THE QM?

The irony is palpable. You have no ground to stand on calling out blatant power trips.
You shot a sec officer with lethals as a head of staff over the word "ligger", before the new ruling.
Mutiny is a much better reason to use lethals than that bullshit.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:09 pm

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:30 pm Also what a thinly veiled power trip holy fuck. They go into cargo yell at the qm, the qm tells them to fuck off so they ATTACK THE QM?

The irony is palpable. You have no ground to stand on calling out blatant power trips.
You shot a sec officer with lethals as a head of staff over the word "ligger", before the new ruling.
Mutiny is a much better reason to use lethals than that bullshit.

OooOOoOo Kieth Ekaterina has you in a logical and rethorical armlock

ekaterina wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:09 pm

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:30 pm Also what a thinly veiled power trip holy fuck. They go into cargo yell at the qm, the qm tells them to fuck off so they ATTACK THE QM?

The irony is palpable. You have no ground to stand on calling out blatant power trips.
You shot a sec officer with lethals as a head of staff over the word "ligger", before the new ruling.
Mutiny is a much better reason to use lethals than that bullshit.

the name of the sec officer? Ekaterina.

What I'm saying is that we've got to legalise glue man, it's got other uses that aren't just mind-expanding!