/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34876

https://tgstation13.org/tgdb/publicbans.php

edit: new appeal viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34908

FUCKING YIKES

thats a lot of bans

They found Bigfoot (The fabled felinid metagang)

Excellent killstreak.

ok ok... hold the phone for THIS specific ban appeal... the two screenshots posted were from december of 2022. they're also really not that bad. one's a central command message, and central command messages are a schrodinger's cat of ooc/ic. the other is literally just Space Cat 2 minutes before the round ends.

should they have posted it? no, lol. should it be a perma-ban-come-back-in-5-months ban? no

unless there's more evidence that's not being posted then idk Free That Specific Person I guess or whatever

this was not a high-five moment for admins, to the contrary it's actually been very taxing on everyone emotionally. the players involved are not evil and by all accounts were very well received on the server and most people really liked having them around. but there is no timeline in which i'd ever be willing to make exceptions on a very basic and fundamental rule of the game.

the majority of the rules we have are highly contextual and very flexible with enough reasoning and justification. metacomming is not. it's integral to the social agreement we all make when we play here, and by breaking it the game falls apart. i hope the players involved take this for the lesson that it is and try to come back further down the line when they've had the time to process it and grow from it. by breaking this vital rule you are destroying the integrity of the round and doing a disservice to every one of your fellow players who are making the effort to play fairly.

i've been dreading this thread so this is probably the only thing i'm going to say on the matter, have a good one!

wait.. this ban is cringe.

what out of character advantage was gained here? all they showed as proof was the fact that they posted screenshots of an ongoing round.. metacomming is a completely different thing here.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:23 pm this was not a high-five moment for admins, to the contrary it's actually been very taxing on everyone emotionally. the players involved are not evil and by all accounts were very well received on the server and most people really liked having them around. but there is no timeline in which i'd ever be willing to make exceptions on a very basic and fundamental rule of the game.

I want to emphasize this. This isn't a happy moment, this is not a good moment. I know that this is what I was getting into when I became a head admin and I intend on seeing it through, but I do not need to like this.
I would very much prefer if this peanut did not devolve into insulting the players involved, and I'm glad it hasn't. I can only hope we see better people with vouches in the future.

If you're reading this and are in an unmoderated metacord. Just leave it, it's not worth it.

i really like interacting with skye zymara ingame. its a shame to see this.

Did all seven of those people who were banned share different screenshots? I'm mildly confused.

I'm getting the feeling they icebox chapel'd it.
Why punish people based on what they individually did when you can just eyeball a punishment for everyone and be done with it?

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:59 pm I'm getting the feeling they icebox chapel'd it.
Why punish people based on what they individually did when you can just eyeball a punishment for everyone and be done with it?

Hi, as someone involved in the investigation, this is not the case.
Every member had all the evidence we could find (Combing through 20k+ messages in random channels) attached to their name.
In the end, everyone who was permabanned had several instances of sharing ongoing round info with friends. Over half the people involved in the group were banned for a pretty short while or not at all.

Holy crap, the sheer irony is palpable...
xPokee campaigned on cracking down on metagangs, only to get banned not even a week after the ballots closed for metagaming.
It's interesting to see Cheshify open up his term bringing down the hammer and I'm curious to see whether these bans will hold up to scrutiny.
It's not a good look for Cheshify to be going after a fellow candidate for shit that took place almost a year ago.

Fikou wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:08 pm In the end, everyone who was permabanned had several instances of sharing ongoing round info with friends.

was there evidence showing that they used out of game communication to gain an in round benefit, or were they permabanned purely on the merit of posting while a round was still ongoing, no matter how innocuous or useless that post may have been?

dendydoom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:23 pm this was not a high-five moment for admins

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:37 pm This isn't a happy moment, this is not a good moment.

I would like to change my earlier statement:

This is now a Tragic killstreak.

Fikou wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:08 pm In the end, everyone who was permabanned had several instances of sharing ongoing round info with friends. Over half the people involved in the group were banned for a pretty short while or not at all.

idk I only saw 2 pieces of evidence in the appeal.
Also u're capping if u think the appeal in the OP is worth the same "Appeal denied fuck off and come back in a year with a vouch" as some of the others might deserve.
If u consider that bans serve two purposes:
1. To teach a lesson
2. To protect the servers from a problem player
If the latest instances of metacomms the admin can find to defend the ban in appeal is so old that if it was a note I wouldn't even read it, does a lesson need to be taught? If yes, surely the lecture on the forums achieves that goal. Admittedly their "Why you think you should be unbanned" section somewhat undermines this argument" but it's possible they just forgor . After all felinid players aren't known for being smart.
And for the second, Chesh even says in the appeal that they're not a problem player.
Other than freeing up server pop for someone who plays a more based species (Like ethereal), what does this ban achieve?

this is like when a "major drug bust" happens and it turns out they found 5 guys with a single bag of weed

oh well theres probably more stuff

Pepper wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:13 pm was there evidence showing that they used out of game communication to gain an in round benefit, or were they permabanned purely on the merit of posting while a round was still ongoing, no matter how innocuous or useless that post may have been?

There are cases we've seen that are pretty clear usages of meta-info to gain in-round advantages.

Rule 2 is probably the simplest rule to follow, and the most punishing towards server enjoyment if it isn't enforced. The fact that there was metacomms by multiple players over the course of months, all in a separate special discord is a major issue, and we cannot take breaches like this lightly in the slightest. Breaches of rule 2 very quickly tend to snowball into people seeing round info, deciding that since they're good players and won't be using it harmfully (totally /s) that it's ok to post a little more.

We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:12 pm It's not a good look for Cheshify to be going after a fellow candidate for shit that took place almost a year ago.

Some context, this wasn't a solo operation, but the work of the head admin team.
Why would I take out a candidate anyhow, I already won head admin.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:55 pm There are cases we've seen that are pretty clear usages of meta-info to gain in-round advantages.

Ok, then at least some of these bans are justified.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:55 pm Rule 2 is probably the simplest rule to follow, and the most punishing towards server enjoyment if it isn't enforced. The fact that there was metacomms by multiple players over the course of months, all in a separate special discord is a major issue, and we cannot take breaches like this lightly in the slightest. Breaches of rule 2 very quickly tend to snowball into people seeing round info, deciding that since they're good players and won't be using it harmfully (totally /s) that it's ok to post a little more.

I'm fluent in jannie: this is word salad for le slippery slope.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:55 pm We did however, as Fikou mentioned, not lay blanket bans on the entire community. Everything is proportional to information we found in the investigation.

Is posting a picture of a cat and a station-wide announcement perma ban worthy? Or was not all the evidence laid out in this appeal?

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:12 pm Holy crap, the sheer irony is palpable...
xPokee campaigned on cracking down on metagangs, only to get banned not even a week after the ballots closed for metagaming.
It's interesting to see Cheshify open up his term bringing down the hammer and I'm curious to see whether these bans will hold up to scrutiny.
It's not a good look for Cheshify to be going after a fellow candidate for shit that took place almost a year ago.

Yeah. This irony is insane. I felt xPokee's campaign a bit ironic myself at the time as well.

But also yeah, I wonder how this info went out... Was it a lucky coincidence it appeared right as chesh got headmin?

So many statics I recognise gone. Really good RP too.
Wuuf.

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:28 pm Other than freeing up server pop for someone who plays a more based species (Like ethereal), what does this ban achieve?

Bans like this are important for keeping precedents established. Metacomms are against the entire spirit of the game, and these players all made conscious decisions to join an unmoderated discord server and break the rules. Staying firm on "Do Not Under Any Circumstance Metacomm" is basic stuff.

Pepper wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:59 pm I'm fluent in jannie: this is word salad for le slippery slope.

And you know what? We went through the logs and saw metacomms normalized in a micro-community.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:04 pm And you know what? We went through the logs and saw metacomms normalized in a micro-community.

I'm not refuting you, just clarifying. I would, however, like your take on this:

Pepper wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:59 pm Is posting a picture of a cat and a station-wide announcement perma ban worthy? Or was not all the evidence laid out in this appeal?

I get you want to be all secret and stuff regarding the exact who's or what's that led to logs in this discord getting posted, but without some more of the picture here your intentions become equally as unclear.

going to guess that the people with one or two screenshots of metacomms are going to be the appeals we see and anyone with mountains of screenshots wont bother appealing

Pepper wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:07 pm

Cheshify wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:04 pm And you know what? We went through the logs and saw metacomms normalized in a micro-community.

I'm not refuting you, just clarifying. I would, however, like your take on this:

Pepper wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:59 pm Is posting a picture of a cat and a station-wide announcement perma ban worthy? Or was not all the evidence laid out in this appeal?

I get you want to be all secret and stuff regarding the exact who's or what's that led to logs in this discord getting posted, but without some more of the picture here your intentions become equally as unclear.

I'm happy to provide context. As I am now a head admin nobody aside my other head admins can actually stop me from being transparent

The issue with metacomms is like the issue with blowing up the shuttle 1 second before EORG or talking about something really funny the clown did in OOC even if it doesn't have an effect, we can't always let things slip by if they're entirely against the social contract of the game. We can't allow any instances of discussing in-round information not to be seen as metacomming simply because it "technically was okay". The main issue is that it was done on a private server away from administration with the intent to provide information to the round that others would otherwise have no way of learning. During the investigations we saw this behaviour repeated multiple times and nobody stopped to think "hm maybe we should just always stop this, or get people who are doing this out of the discord."

EDIT: And nobody just talked to an admin and self-reported, which I can easily see as being a "drop to a note and forget about it" situation. If something reaches the point where a massive investigation needs to have done, then it's too late.

so… no other evidence for this specific person?

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:40 pm so… no other evidence for this specific person?

we're not applying these bans lightly, several of us were good friends with a lot of people affected and i personally enjoyed seeing skye herself as a player - oftentimes trying to make her time as a rolepicked prisoner more interesting with button shenanigans. we are reviewing these appeals as they come for more detail, and i do feel the newness of skye as a player might hold some water pending some discussions with the other headmins.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:40 pm so… no other evidence for this specific person?

I do notice that point being suspiciously ignored in all of the multi-posting about it, yes.

Edit: Also

ekaterina wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:12 pm
xPokee campaigned on cracking down on metagangs, only to get banned not even a week after the ballots closed for metagaming.

Have to wait and see on evidence, but it's possible that they did it in the past, then realized that it was harmful and stopped, and wanted to change things.

Do you really want more evidence being dregged up to really kill that person?

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:03 am Do you really want more evidence being dregged up to really kill that person?

Yeah duh, kill em harder and deader

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:03 am Do you really want more evidence being dregged up to really kill that person?

when the unfortunate truth is that one bad appeal/ban can undermine an entire investigation, the answer is: yes.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:03 am Do you really want more evidence being dregged up to really kill that person?

It's not about More Evidence, it's which one WAS used.

I don't even necessarily want them to post the evidence here, I just want peoples' concerns to be answered. It's a bad look when everything EXCEPT that one thing gets responded to.

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:51 pm

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:40 pm so… no other evidence for this specific person?

we're not applying these bans lightly, several of us were good friends with a lot of people affected and i personally enjoyed seeing skye herself as a player - oftentimes trying to make her time as a rolepicked prisoner more interesting with button shenanigans. we are reviewing these appeals as they come for more detail, and i do feel the newness of skye as a player might hold some water pending some discussions with the other headmins.

thankyou, this is good insight.

sad ban

The staff themselves are saying these are good players, not problem players, not people with multiple previous bans or a ton of notes or anything, aye?
Why not simply give a long but temporary ban to anyone who posted non-round-critical things, and a perma to anyone who posted actual "I died in X" tier shit?

That way players like Skye, who in the "20,000 messages combed through" apparently only posted an announcement (viewable by all people on the server, alive or dead, in any location) and "ha ha funny space cat" two minutes before round end, don't get absolutely blasted as though they'd done something on par with "@everyone 47 people HEY ENWORD SHITTERHANDS KILLED ME WITH AN EBOW IN DORMS THREE BLOW HIM UP WITH THIS MAXCAP I HID BEHIND A WALL AT THESE GPS COORDINATES".

I get that metacomms bad, le slippery slope, etc, but there's a point where zero tolerance becomes pants-on-head, and I think this is it. This is on par with "child takes bite out of pop-tart, suspended for saying it looks like a gun".

Thranos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:33 am The staff themselves are saying these are good players, not problem players, not people with multiple previous bans or a ton of notes or anything, aye?
Why not simply give a long but temporary ban to anyone who posted non-round-critical things, and a perma to anyone who posted actual "I died in X" tier shit?

That way players like Skye, who in the "20,000 messages combed through" apparently only posted an announcement (viewable by all people on the server, alive or dead, in any location) and "ha ha funny space cat" two minutes before round end, don't get absolutely blasted as though they'd done something on par with "@everyone 47 people HEY ENWORD SHITTERHANDS KILLED ME WITH AN EBOW IN DORMS THREE BLOW HIM UP WITH THIS MAXCAP I HID BEHIND A WALL AT THESE GPS COORDINATES".

I get that metacomms bad, le slippery slope, etc, but there's a point where zero tolerance becomes pants-on-head, and I think this is it. This is on par with "child takes bite out of pop-tart, suspended for saying it looks like a gun".

there's always going to be more than what we reveal or reasonings that don't make it to the public that influence sweeping things like this, but in skyes case we are going to be discussing her individually on some points that have already been brought up in this thread, and some that have been brought up internally.

we're not out to lose cool people if we can help it. not all rules we have are enforced with the severity that the rules page implies on a case by case basis, but rule 2 and rule 8 are things we come down hard on because we have to.

I was out all day seeing friends and having a gay old time playing some Flesh & Blood.

I did not expect to come back home to a fucking purge.

Thranos wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:33 am snip

I don't have anything to add, only that I agree with Thranos' sentiment here, I greatly enjoyed the presence of these players and to see players like Skye getting permanently banned for messages that seem so...minute feels wrong to me. I understand there were a lot of messages to comb through, but surely if there were particularly egregious examples, they would've been shown as Skye metacomming instead of the previously discussed images.

MooCow12 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:32 amsad ban

I agree, and the thread is reopened again. Give us some time to discuss it internally.

conrad wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:40 am I was out all day seeing friends and having a gay old time playing some Flesh & Blood.

I did not expect to come back home to a fucking purge.

Yeah I'd been off Manuel for a few days playing Eris, and came back to "oh that's like a fourth of the people I regularly interact with on Manuel gone what the fuck-".

these bans were handed out with the idea that appeals would eventually come, and threads like these actually provide good insight on what individual players involved provided to the community at large. some of the people who ate permenant bans likely won't be appealing their rule 2 bans for the amount of evidence against them, but we're hoping the less egregious cases appeal so that we can handle them based on ways they've distinguished themselves from the others who have been banned.

i am very sad to not see some of the faces i've played with regularly as most of you are.

We really cannot reveal more that what is posted because the information is of a private nature.

Only the headmins and headmins-elect have the full info and they have to crop it up to prevent more info from leaking.

I can say for sure that the banned players have avenues to privately request an audience with them and get the relevant info and defend themselves.

I TOLD EVERYONE CHESHIFY WOULD GO OFF THE RAILS WHEN ELECTED

I TOLD YOU ALL

i guess the rumors of the felinid metagangs on manuel were true..
but no seriously, it's gotta be really fucking tough to ban long time friends. like, really really tough. that sucks guys.
i feel like maybe a better way to handle it though would have been to sit everyone down, get everyone to publicly apologize, and then give them all 6 month bans or something as a show of some kind of punishment.

there is no win from this I suppose.

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:59 am we're hoping the less egregious cases appeal so that we can handle them based on ways they've distinguished themselves from the others who have been banned.

I hate to be that guy, but with sinful out of the players club, i suppose someone has to

how exactly would one appeal from those banned have more or less merit than another?
they were ALL in the discord together, does it really matter what was posted and by who, when they ALL CHOSE to stay in that discord and view the information?

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:28 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:59 am we're hoping the less egregious cases appeal so that we can handle them based on ways they've distinguished themselves from the others who have been banned.

I hate to be that guy, but with sinful out of the players club, i suppose someone has to

how exactly would one appeal from those banned have more or less merit than another?
they were ALL in the discord together, does it really matter what was posted and by who, when they ALL CHOSE to stay in that discord and view the information?

it was pointed out in this thread that skye was a 1-month old player when some of those incidents that led to their ban were logged, as an example. i agree that most people should have given the discord a general sniff-test and gotten the hell out of there immediately, but i don't want to damn people on the basis of just wanting to have friends. we're all still human and get the good brain chemicals from sharing spaces of people that think in similar ways to us.

What even lead to this? Was there an undercover operation going on? Do we have spies in more metacomming servers? Do we have honeypots?

i am in every metagang discord that has ever existed and i am eating all of the snacks and dip when they're not looking