/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35001

Invoking rule 0 in your defense is a bold strategy cotton, lets see if it pays off.

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:18 pmI'm not going to mince words, metagaming is a large part of Campbell's culture, because the way that the game is structured does not lend itself well to long rounds without it.

Gahahaha!! What the fuck is this self entitled shit doing? Blatantly ignoring direct orders from an admin, then requesting them to invoke rule 0 for their unban while declaring it is Campbell's culture. You can't make this shit up.

The M in MRP stands for metagaming
Campbell is every man for himself metagaming while Manuel is for team based metagaming.

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:47 pm viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35001

Invoking rule 0 in your defense is a bold strategy cotton, lets see if it pays off.

The result was unsurprising!

Learn from this players mistake, rule 0 and the secret rule are for admins to invoke. Asking for it to be invoked will almost always end badly.

A good example of a valid use of rule 0 would be me using it after a group of player lynched and RR'd someone for saying the L word. Sure, by the the letter of the rules it went against escalation policy but they had it coming by repeatedly saying and annoying players with it.

Well yes, but it's more a statement about Campbell policy than my own ban. I do what I do on Campbell for the enjoyment of both myself and other players, which is the most important part thing to do in a multiplayer game like this. "If the rules get in the way of the fun, ignore them" - I was just pointing out that that is already official policy, as the highest rule no less.

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:33 am Well yes, but it's more a statement about Campbell policy than my own ban. I do what I do on Campbell for the enjoyment of both myself and other players, which is the most important part thing to do in a multiplayer game like this. "If the rules get in the way of the fun, ignore them" - I was just pointing out that that is already official policy, as the highest rule no less.

you have to realize there's a reason that it's an administrator that decides when that rule is applicable, right?

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:33 am Well yes, but it's more a statement about Campbell policy than my own ban. I do what I do on Campbell for the enjoyment of both myself and other players, which is the most important part thing to do in a multiplayer game like this. "If the rules get in the way of the fun, ignore them" - I was just pointing out that that is already official policy, as the highest rule no less.

How does banning metagaming and exploit abuse with the intention to mess with Russians playing mafia get in the way of fun? The fun is for the entire server, not your self entitled ass.

When there is no admin on the server literally 99% of the time, players are going to have to take things into their own hands. That's what I meant by the manpower issues of trying to enforce the same rules on Campbell as the other servers. There are simply no admins that are ever there, and on the rare occasion that there is there's a huge culture shock like you're seeing now. Either get rid of Campbell, change its rules, or onboard admins that are willing to actually enforce rules there. The status quo isn't working.

I have a good feeling about this thread.

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:33 am Well yes, but it's more a statement about Campbell policy than my own ban. I do what I do on Campbell for the enjoyment of both myself and other players, which is the most important part thing to do in a multiplayer game like this. "If the rules get in the way of the fun, ignore them" - I was just pointing out that that is already official policy, as the highest rule no less.

>He posted in his own peanut!

lol

reading the appeal, holy shit what a goose

It was my intention to give them a funny and surprising experience, and given that being able to go into each other's rooms would not actually spoil each other's roles

absolute lol-posting hours

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:19 am When there is no admin on the server literally 99% of the time, players are going to have to take things into their own hands. That's what I meant by the manpower issues of trying to enforce the same rules on Campbell as the other servers. There are simply no admins that are ever there, and on the rare occasion that there is there's a huge culture shock like you're seeing now. Either get rid of Campbell, change its rules, or onboard admins that are willing to actually enforce rules there. The status quo isn't working.

Ahelps all get sent to a channel where all admins can see them if none are on a server. Urgent ahelps go to people with the supportmin role as a direct Discord ping.

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:33 am Well yes, but it's more a statement about Campbell policy than my own ban. I do what I do on Campbell for the enjoyment of both myself and other players, which is the most important part thing to do in a multiplayer game like this. "If the rules get in the way of the fun, ignore them" - I was just pointing out that that is already official policy, as the highest rule no less.

rule 0 allows admins to ignore certain rules and forgo enforcement of them on players. If you're appealing a ban the admin in question has already decided not to use rule 0.

here, ill scribble out what isnt relevant to the ban appeal 20% appeal, 60% complaint and 20% ban request

if you cheat at the game you get banned, good riddance

well we have reports from campbell, which is an official metacommunications/metagaming/whatever channel (if we want to be MetaGaming purists) so it seems ridiculous to get all uppity about them MetaGaming or whatever.

people are clowning on this person for invoking rule 0 but this is like the most prominent time to use it. nobody was necessarily getting hurt; they had already reported the exploit, and they were using it in Campbell as a surprise for some players. like, really, who was getting hurt here?

with that said it’s not an actual permaban, it’s a “come back when you’re willing to explain the exploit” which is fine. seems like there was a whole lotta miscommunication going on. hope it all gets sorted out.

the only thing that im unsure about is if they were actually going to “pop in for a friendly surprise”- they seem to be all righteous about the russians breaking the rules or whatever. makes me think they were going to grief them but like honestly fat chance. they probably werent going to grief them. seems weird to put that in the ban.

ngl I would've let him 'grief' Mafia gamers if I was the one handling it. It's entirely harmless really, and honestly its pretty impressive to break into centcom, find the mafia game, and break in through indestructible walls to say hi. The issue here is them refusing to share how exploit was done though.

there are very strict rules for the reports from campbell channel to emulate an IC method of communication which is monitored and vetted, it is not the same as metagaming and exploiting whenever you want. i don't think it's an unreasonable stance to not want people to cheat at the roleplaying game which implicitly requires an agreement among all participants for it to work at all in the first place. it is the most basic thing to ask of a player.

Striders13 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:05 am ngl I would've let him 'grief' Mafia gamers if I was the one handling it. It's entirely harmless really, and honestly its pretty impressive to break into centcom, find the mafia game, and break in through indestructible walls to say hi. The issue here is them refusing to share how exploit was done though.

striders wraps it up in a nice bow here. but i am here to specifically say that they DID report it in #tickets-help before, apparently. they also said they were in the process of explaining it mid-ticket. idk i'd have to see the ticket to form any real opinion. i'm thinking this is just some major miscommunication.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:30 am

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 2:33 am Well yes, but it's more a statement about Campbell policy than my own ban. I do what I do on Campbell for the enjoyment of both myself and other players, which is the most important part thing to do in a multiplayer game like this. "If the rules get in the way of the fun, ignore them" - I was just pointing out that that is already official policy, as the highest rule no less.

>He posted in his own peanut!

I was notified of this thread because someone quoted me lol

kinnebian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:45 am here, ill scribble out what isnt relevant to the ban appeal

► Show Spoiler

20% appeal, 60% complaint and 20% ban request

I will openly admit that I'm using this to get on my soapbox about Campbell policy in general.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:57 am if you cheat at the game you get banned, good riddance

When the game isn't competitive, metagaming isn't cheating.

if you want to talk about policy maybe you should make a policy thread rather than a ban appeal

I probably will, but the ban appeal is an example of how current policy is wrong, so I'm going to use that.

theyre going to completely ignore anything not relevant to the ban because thats all that a ban appeal is for

Fair enough.

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:31 am I probably will, but the ban appeal is an example of how current policy is wrong, so I'm going to use that.

MSO has explicitly stated that Campbell is just "Manuel but for EU" multiple times and has had no interest in making it a marathon server or changing the rules for it, but good luck! I'm sure you'll change his mind!

This ban made me more convinced that there is a large group of admins that just categorically hate fun and hate everything outside of a predictable repeatable metagame.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:34 am This ban made me more convinced that there is a large group of admins that just categorically hate fun and hate everything outside of a predictable repeatable metagame.

They're pretty easy to ID since they constantly get appeals like these.

i feel like the ticket should be posted because its so relevant to the ban

If it's fun hating to stop people using exploits to get into centcomm z level to break into the mafia minigame and ruin it (as well as using meta-information to know that the mafia game is even ongoing), then I'd consider the majority of us to be fun hating

Breaking the rules just because you don't agree with them, or think they're bad, doesn't excuse the breaking of them in the first place (yet if there is a genuine RP reason for your actions and the net outcome is a positive for people, then the secret rule can apply, but this is certainly not the case)

ShadowedEnvy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:19 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:57 am if you cheat at the game you get banned, good riddance

When the game isn't competitive, metagaming isn't cheating.

impressive level of cope, well done

Centcom exploits are a really stupid reason to get banned. There's nothing really too interesting there, and definitely nothing worth getting banned over.

E: The appeal goes something like this:

"It's everyone's fault but my own! I cannot be held responsible for my own actions!"
"Okay, then we're banning you."
"FUCK YOU YOU LITERALLY CAN'T"

Why were there 4 people on the centcom z level anyways speaking Russian? Kinda sounds like they were metacomming as well

Shellton(Mario) wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 4:23 pm Why were there 4 people on the centcom z level anyways speaking Russian? Kinda sounds like they were metacomming as well

they were playing the mafia minigame, which happens on the centcomm z level
communicating with each other in-game is not metacommunicating (speaking only in a different language is covered by a different rule)

kinnebian wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:45 am here, ill scribble out what isnt relevant to the ban appeal

► Show Spoiler

20% appeal, 60% complaint and 20% ban request

20% reason to remember the name?

i'm a huge fan of the new headmins mixing the secret rule in with rule zero

that being said, a player somehow breaking into centcom to fuck up ghost mafia sounds F U C K I N G H I L A R I O U S

next time dont be an asshat about how and why you did it though

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:09 pm i'm a huge fan of the new headmins mixing the secret rule in with rule zero

that being said, a player somehow breaking into centcom to fuck up ghost mafia sounds F U C K I N G H I L A R I O U S

next time dont be an asshat about how and why you did it though

agreed.

i have 2 questions.

why was a group of russians playing on campbell and how did he know

and why was there an admin on campbell

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 9:35 pm i have 2 questions.

why was a group of russians playing on campbell and how did he know

and why was there an admin on campbell

1. Russians wanted to Campbell mafia RP. The player quite blatantly metagamed to find that out.

2. Campbell is popular now.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:45 pm Centcom exploits are a really stupid reason to get banned. There's nothing really too interesting there, and definitely nothing worth getting banned over.

If you happen to find one and you get into centcomm, yes.

If you use the exploit thats already been reported, thats a bit stinky.

Metagaming to gm mafia players aside, Centcomm is not a place people can go normally which can impact other roles (particularly antagonists) who are required to interact with a certain player. Youre effectively invulnerable at the cost of not being able to really play the game, which really boils down to you just become a redtext denier for anyone who happens to have you as an objective.

Bringing it back, the player literally only went there to spectate OR grief their game if he had some exploit to get into the mafia arena. I dont really see how at any point there was good intentions with the action, the entire exploit use was to "crash" the mafia game FNR. If youve sucked the dopamine out of the game so much that you are literally metagaming and exploiting to at best interrupt other people from having fun, you need a much longer break imo. Then again seeing the ticket the person was a bit insufferable anywho.

ive seen admins “crash” into mafia games plenty of times. i.e. spawning in items or doing other shenanigans. i dont see how playfully interrupting mafia (in a very creative way, btw. it’s a really cool surprise- or rather would be a very cool surprise for a random non-admin player to crash into your mafia game.)

"it's creative" isn't an excuse for abusing exploits and relying on metainfo.

all knowing seer arrested by new officer over attempted intervention of mafia meeting

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:23 am ive seen admins “crash” into mafia games plenty of times. i.e. spawning in items or doing other shenanigans. i dont see how playfully interrupting mafia (in a very creative way, btw. it’s a really cool surprise- or rather would be a very cool surprise for a random non-admin player to crash into your mafia game.)

i mean the man was mad about them speaking russian, exploited, and metagamed. I wouldnt be surprised if he just started killing them because theyre not crewmembers and OOC.

admins crashing stuff FNR is also obnoxious. If everyone is cool w it then yeah its fun, but you could just like.. not and they would still have fun.

Cheshify wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:23 am "it's creative" isn't an excuse for abusing exploits and relying on metainfo.

Counterpoint: It absolutely is.

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:45 pm Centcom exploits are a really stupid reason to get banned. There's nothing really too interesting there, and definitely nothing worth getting banned over.

So don't ban people over it..... People acting here like he broke into some federal bank reserve or something with this "exploit". Centcom is basically an OOC area, if people want to have their dumb moment of glory there let them.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:20 am

Cheshify wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:23 am "it's creative" isn't an excuse for abusing exploits and relying on metainfo.

Counterpoint: It absolutely is.

^

i think it was creative and the idea of crashing a mafia game as a player is funny. if they griefed it then woe is them*. but overall i think the prospect of just Being There is funny. it’s a surprise. it’s an exploit yes but the entire bit of is the fact that it’s an exploit. if it wasn’t an exploit then crashing a mafia game non-harmfully in a fully intended way would result in it being only 10% as fun or interesting. using game exploits to get an advantage over people is stupid as hell, but i will never pass up the opportunity to use unintended ways to surprise people. no harm no foul, and everyone gets lots of laughs. using exploits and sharing it with folks is part of the game’s heart and soul. think of all the stupid ass contraptions built in the hallways showing exploits and everyone gathering around to watch. will of course never be opposed to shit getting fixed and making sure it’s reported through the right channels, though.

*cobby mentioned this and i’ve sort of brushed on it but them moving the goalposts to players speaking russian is weird. but im still not convinced that’s enough to say they were going to grief them.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 8:20 am

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 3:45 pm Centcom exploits are a really stupid reason to get banned. There's nothing really too interesting there, and definitely nothing worth getting banned over.

So don't ban people over it.....

(it’s not vekter’s ban)

It's very obvious his "surprise" would just be to grief them. He metagamed to find them, and then asked why the admins didn't deal with them in his ban appeal. We all know he wanted to take matters into his own hands.

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:36 am It's very obvious his "surprise" would just be to grief them. He metagamed to find them, and then asked why the admins didn't deal with them in his ban appeal. We all know he wanted to take matters into his own hands.

this is all just flat out assumptions

Turbonerd wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 9:36 am We all know he wanted to take matters into his own hands.

Idk shit man, vibe checks are worse than ouija boards.