/tg/Station 13

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I was playing pacifist moth sec this round, I think the last thing Jeff heard from me was "Cy-yb-o-or-gs R-R-OU-U-GUE"

I think Mister Jaeden raises a good point bringing up this section of the RPR6
"...-The overall status of the station factors in to the severity of committed crimes and the proportionality of security response-..."

Wonder how this one will turn out.

it's clear that this ban was the result of the mime's treatment alone and jeff's history of overescalation. i was observing the situation and the only people in the cells at the time was will (the detective who was going to get demoted) and the mime (shoved someone who was being arrested into the arresting secoff i think) and the firelocks were down. the question i have is what would happen if jeff simply turned around and walked away from this situation? a detective pending demotion and a mime who pushed someone over would get away. if i could give any advice to jeff it would be to pick your battles. you don't have to kill everyone you meet on the off-chance that they might try to kill you later. the mime was sat in a cell for almost 10 minutes before they decided to try and escape. if it were me in that instance, it would simply be a case of "well, they've been sat around long enough, that can count as their sentence, i'm letting them go because i've got more important things to deal with."

i do like jeff, but it's obvious that his tunnel vision causes issues. a personal anecdote: i love to play lawyer, it's one of my favourite roles. but when i see jeff as hos i usually don't choose it because the sum of my experiences is that i'm either ignored or batoned and wordlessly thrown out of the brig any time i try to do my job with him around. this round was hectic, and i think quite a few of his actions were justified, but the choices he made around the mime are typical of what makes him unfun to interact with when he gets into that tunnel vision mode. it is equal parts frustrating and disappointing to see him be so verbose and thoughtful in appeals, yet not see that side of him in his interactions ingame.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:05 am i do like jeff, but it's obvious that his tunnel vision causes issues. a personal anecdote: i love to play lawyer, it's one of my favourite roles. but when i see jeff as hos i usually don't choose it because the sum of my experiences is that i'm either ignored or batoned and wordlessly thrown out of the brig any time i try to do my job with him around. this round was hectic, and i think quite a few of his actions were justified, but the choices he made around the mime are typical of what makes him unfun to interact with when he gets into that tunnel vision mode. it is equal parts frustrating and disappointing to see him be so verbose and thoughtful in appeals, yet not see that side of him in his interactions ingame.

Against my better judgement I am going to reply to the second post of my own peanut, not gonna talk about the ban itself but just about this. Genuinely I love good lawyers and I love interacting with them. I love a good trial too (related: funny youtube video of me holding a trial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KWHJm2 ... MxMw%3D%3D). My first sec jobban I ever got, I was "tricked" into signing my stun baton rights away to a lawyer and I gave him my stun baton and "arrested" people by beating them with toolboxes instead of stunning them (chesh didnt like it lol). Even on a recent round I played as secoff lights-the-way, there was a guy that I thought was in permabrig for a garbage reason and I offered to be his lawyer and went through the effort of writing up a whole bunch of "parole paperwork", which I eventually got the hos to approve and release him. It's honestly quite saddening to me to see someone assume I'm gonna do this. I very rarely baton and throw lawyers out of the brig, usually only if they start shoving officers and acting like greyshirts. Sometimes in the hectic later parts of rounds I do just ignore lawyers but that's usually because of something similar to this where I am trying to make security Not Die(TM).

JupiterJaeden wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:13 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:05 am i do like jeff, but it's obvious that his tunnel vision causes issues. a personal anecdote: i love to play lawyer, it's one of my favourite roles. but when i see jeff as hos i usually don't choose it because the sum of my experiences is that i'm either ignored or batoned and wordlessly thrown out of the brig any time i try to do my job with him around. this round was hectic, and i think quite a few of his actions were justified, but the choices he made around the mime are typical of what makes him unfun to interact with when he gets into that tunnel vision mode. it is equal parts frustrating and disappointing to see him be so verbose and thoughtful in appeals, yet not see that side of him in his interactions ingame.

Against my better judgement I am going to reply to the second post of my own peanut, not gonna talk about the ban itself but just about this. Genuinely I love good lawyers and I love interacting with them. I love a good trial too (related: funny youtube video of me holding a trial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KWHJm2 ... MxMw%3D%3D). My first sec jobban I ever got, I was "tricked" into signing my stun baton rights away to a lawyer and I gave him my stun baton and "arrested" people by beating them with toolboxes instead of stunning them (chesh didnt like it lol). It's honestly quite saddening to me to see someone assume I'm gonna do this. I very rarely baton and throw lawyers out of the brig, usually only if they start shoving officers and acting like greyshirts. Sometimes in the hectic later parts of rounds I do just ignore lawyers but that's usually because of something similar to this where I am trying to make security Not Die(TM).

unfortunately this has just been my experience of trying to lawyer in your brig. i don't think you're a bad player, and i don't want to see you stop playing hos, but sadly a lot of my experiences have been "why can't i get a word out of this guy? why won't he stop for 2 seconds and talk to me so i can do my role?"

all i really want is for you to remember what you already know: that what people love and cherish about this game are the stories we make with each other. the victories and losses, the greentexts and redtexts are entirely forgettable. if you could do this even in the moments when it seems really difficult, you would be an absolute model player. best of luck with your appeal.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:05 am it's clear that this ban was the result of the mime's treatment alone and jeff's history of overescalation. i was observing the situation and the only people in the cells at the time was will (the detective who was going to get demoted) and the mime (shoved someone who was being arrested into the arresting secoff i think) and the firelocks were down. the question i have is what would happen if jeff simply turned around and walked away from this situation? a detective pending demotion and a mime who pushed someone over would get away.

Perhaps Tiders should not be trying to grief Security for The Funnies if they don't want to face the repercussions of their actions. Putting it down simply to "A mime who pushed someone over" is being, frankly, rather bad faith. The Mime interfered with an arrest. Did they have any good reasons for doing that? I wasn't in the round, so I assume not, but what I see from the appeal is that it was a Changeling. So already massively dangerous, and one who was spamming EMPs at that, removing Security's ability to deal with anyone non-lethally, (or even the Changeling himself, after all it's much easier to stun a Changeling and then kill it than to try and fight it actively).

The Mime was making a deliberate effort to make the lives of Security much, MUCH harder, when they were already overwhelmed by antags. If anyone should have been banned here, it's Him, assuming he didn't have a good reason. And if he DID have a good reason, then this is the most IC issue of all IC issues. The Mime took deliberate actions that greatly risked the lives of the Crew and the Security team, and faced the repercussions of his actions.

Reposting from the manuel discord

>dynamic doesn't account for security officers during it's calculations
>antagonist are super cheap for dynamic to purchase
>dynamic is also heavily weighted towards being 60 threat most of the time (TheBibleMelts told me it's been moved towards being a bit lower threat so we'll see)
>security usually has two officers tops most rounds
>this results in security mains being super short with people, which gets admins mad since it's basically the only RP rule/standard admins enforce other than making sure the clown isn't named "Big Chungus"
WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING?!

Most admins don't play sec ever and it shows.

My first experience with Jeff was almost being type-baited by him. Whether he meant to do that or not is something I'm not sure about, and I've not heard about him doing that regularly so I can't imagine it was. But the fact that without even letting me speak a word after prompting a response from me, he was already attempting to baton me down about sums up my impression of Jeff. There is no reason to roleplay with him, so I think it's best if given the opportunity I don't ever engage him like that.

He's the kind of person I actually just don't want to play in the same round as and I do not look forward to having to ever encounter, such that I actually have chosen to remove antag when I know he's around because I just didn't feel like being forced to be so overly mechanically focused that round. I always feel like he's urging Manuel towards a less roleplay and a far more mechanical environment, and he bends the rules of good faith only so much as he can take advantage of it for himself. He's not alone in this regard. I don't want to lump the entirety of some downward trend that is purely anecdotal at one guys feet when he's not even necessarily that bad a person. But I do feel confident that when I've put someone on my personal 'Don't bother' list, they're not coming off that list and I'll always choose mechanical responses first.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:03 am Reposting from the manuel discord

>dynamic doesn't account for security officers during it's calculations
>antagonist are super cheap for dynamic to purchase
>dynamic is also heavily weighted towards being 60 threat most of the time
>security usually has two officers tops most rounds
>this results in security mains being super short with people, which gets admins mad since it's basically the only RP rule/standard admins enforce other than making sure the clown isn't named "Big Chungus"
WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING?!

Most admins don't play sec ever and it shows.

it's worth noting that changes were made to manuel's config after this jobban because TBM is in full agreement that it's putting too much pressure on sec to the point that they can't roleplay effectively in a way that keeps things in good faith. i was a sec main before dynamic and the environment that dynamic has created for mrp very quickly burnt me out on it. i would love nothing more than to tweak dynamic for manuel's needs to make it more fun for players who enjoy sec, because i'm one of them.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:57 am

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:05 am it's clear that this ban was the result of the mime's treatment alone and jeff's history of overescalation. i was observing the situation and the only people in the cells at the time was will (the detective who was going to get demoted) and the mime (shoved someone who was being arrested into the arresting secoff i think) and the firelocks were down. the question i have is what would happen if jeff simply turned around and walked away from this situation? a detective pending demotion and a mime who pushed someone over would get away.

Perhaps Tiders should not be trying to grief Security for The Funnies if they don't want to face the repercussions of their actions. Putting it down simply to "A mime who pushed someone over" is being, frankly, rather bad faith. The Mime interfered with an arrest. Did they have any good reasons for doing that? I wasn't in the round, so I assume not, but what I see from the appeal is that it was a Changeling. So already massively dangerous, and one who was spamming EMPs at that, removing Security's ability to deal with anyone non-lethally, (or even the Changeling himself, after all it's much easier to stun a Changeling and then kill it than to try and fight it actively).

The Mime was making a deliberate effort to make the lives of Security much, MUCH harder, when they were already overwhelmed by antags. If anyone should have been banned here, it's Him, assuming he didn't have a good reason. And if he DID have a good reason, then this is the most IC issue of all IC issues. The Mime took deliberate actions that greatly risked the lives of the Crew and the Security team, and faced the repercussions of his actions.

i couldn't actually see where the interference in arrest was logged, so it might have just been an invisible wall? either way, i am unsure where you are getting the information that the mime was actively aiding a changeling while in the brig. security had cremated it while the mime had spent his initial time in the cell, from what i heard. they weren't together.

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:18 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:57 am [snippy]

i couldn't actually see where the interference in arrest was logged, so it might have just been an invisible wall? either way, i am unsure where you are getting the information that the mime was actively aiding a changeling while in the brig. security had cremated it while the mime had spent his initial time in the cell, from what i heard. they weren't together.

Appealant says the Mime was interfering in the arrest, and I have no reason to doubt that given SS13 as a whole's culture of "griefing Sec FNR is funny".

Dendy also says the Mime was shoving someone an officer was arresting into said officer. So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Someone was the Changeling.

I don't see the relevance of it being done while in the brig, anyway. The Mime has already shown that they're either an antag, or are willing to grief Sec FNR, so if he escapes from the Brig it's not an unreasonable assumption that he's going to continue doing either of those things. And if the station's in that level of absolute disrepair, him doing that is going to lead to the deaths of many people.

SS13 is a game where you never have all of the answers, and you're doing the best you can with what you have. I don't think this is a case where that doesn't apply. A HoS was dealing with his team constantly dying, and was faced with someone who has already either tried to help a fellow antag, or just griefed them. If he leaves them be, there's a very high chance that they'll do so again, which will lead to the death of what little of Sec is remaining, which means the antags will run the station unopposed. And for the "yeah but OOC winning vs RP" front, just swap the word "antag" to "Hostile" and remove the part about Griefing, and it all still makes sense from an IC perspective.

It's entirely reasonable.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:33 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:18 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:57 am [snippy]

i couldn't actually see where the interference in arrest was logged, so it might have just been an invisible wall? either way, i am unsure where you are getting the information that the mime was actively aiding a changeling while in the brig. security had cremated it while the mime had spent his initial time in the cell, from what i heard. they weren't together.

Appealant says the Mime was interfering in the arrest, and I have no reason to doubt that given SS13 as a whole's culture of "griefing Sec FNR is funny".

Dendy also says the Mime was shoving someone an officer was arresting into said officer. So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Someone was the Changeling.

I don't see the relevance of it being done while in the brig, anyway. The Mime has already shown that they're either an antag, or are willing to grief Sec FNR, so if he escapes from the Brig it's not an unreasonable assumption that he's going to continue doing either of those things. And if the station's in that level of absolute disrepair, him doing that is going to lead to the deaths of many people.

SS13 is a game where you never have all of the answers, and you're doing the best you can with what you have. I don't think this is a case where that doesn't apply. A HoS was dealing with his team constantly dying, and was faced with someone who has already either tried to help a fellow antag, or just griefed them. If he leaves them be, there's a very high chance that they'll do so again, which will lead to the death of what little of Sec is remaining, which means the antags will run the station unopposed. And for the "yeah but OOC winning vs RP" front, just swap the word "antag" to "Hostile" and remove the part about Griefing, and it all still makes sense from an IC perspective.

It's entirely reasonable.

HoS had no clue what the mimes history was.

I had a whole paragraph talking about a waffle-house index for the bar and the kitchen and how admins shrugged off a QM shooting, decapitating, and tossing a guy out into space for not having a mindshield in a peaceful cargo bay during revs but I didn't like how it came across so I'll just say this:

I like Jeff, I do realize he tends to be a bit ooga booga sometimes though. In my observations, he isn't purely an ooga-booga lowRP sec main, but he isn't afraid to do what he deems necessary. Unfortunately, he is a bit quick to jump the gun, and that tends to get admins on his case because security tends to be held to a higher standard. This, in combination with his notes/bans, means that he is on a very short leash. IMO Jeff is one of the better behaving people on Manuel but at the same time he's quick to do "gamer" things to win, this combined with him being a sec main (which means you get into conflict more often) means that he does quite that a bit, and it gets him in hot water.

I've always taken fucking with security as a "fuck around and find out" kind of thing. I have no idea if the mime was really being a shitter. I have no idea if they were fixing to put the mime on a timed arrest and just hadn't had the time yet. I don't know how bad the station was because some people freak out about a single heretic or a single room being breached and other people think the station is fine if 80% of it is vented, half the crew is dead, and there are nukies and xenos at the same time. JupiterJaiden and the banning admin seem to disagree on how chaotic the round was at that moment.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, though if you forced me at gunpoint I suppose I'd say Jaeden's actions seem justified.

I suppose the only things I really have to say are the following:

1) Keep in mind that things are going to look very different from the perspective of a sec player actively in the middle of a round compared to an admin observing it. Snap decisions get made all the time and Jeff likely felt as if his actions were well within expectations given how chaotic things were from his perspective.
2) Don't get trapped in the idea that Jeff is automatically a bad sec player because he has a bunch of sec notes. People can and often improve, but we (as a whole, including me) tend to gravitate towards calling everything someone does suspect when they have a lot of notes for doing it, even when it's not entirely valid.

I disagree that you can't RP with Jeff. Sure he can get a bit of tunnel vision, but my experiences of playing with him is that he's a well coordinated, intelligent and funny dude and I DO think he's toned his style down. There's been several times where I've tested the waters with him and gotten off with a slap on the wrist.
One example that springs to mind is an officer walking around with his gun (set to lethal) out on low level emergency and I said to the officer 'you know I can easily take that gun off you right, there's no need for you to have a gun drawn?'. I then shoved the officer onto a table and took his gun before dropping it on the floor in front of him. Jeff saw the whole thing and just laughed. Did he kill me, no? Did he arrest me? No. He in fact laughed and said 'he's got a point, keep your gun holstered or you can and will get robusted'.

I think my point is... Jeff's reputation kind of overshadows the 90% of the time when he's not doing anything wrong. He tends to keep security in check and keeps the station safe. I've known him to demote shitter officers and I've known him to be lenient in situations when he could have proved otherwise.

Just my own personal opinion ofc.

I just read TBM's response, and yeah, that's not great. Honestly? I mean this with 100% sincerity and not from a standpoint of wanting Jeff gone (because I don't). I really do think LRP might just work better for him as a player. Most of his actions would be perfectly acceptable there; all of the issues he's running into are brushing up against MRP rules.

Either that or he's just going to have to learn how to talk things out and not go straight to murder to solve his problems.

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:40 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:33 am

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:18 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:57 am [snippy]

i couldn't actually see where the interference in arrest was logged, so it might have just been an invisible wall? either way, i am unsure where you are getting the information that the mime was actively aiding a changeling while in the brig. security had cremated it while the mime had spent his initial time in the cell, from what i heard. they weren't together.

Appealant says the Mime was interfering in the arrest, and I have no reason to doubt that given SS13 as a whole's culture of "griefing Sec FNR is funny".

Dendy also says the Mime was shoving someone an officer was arresting into said officer. So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Someone was the Changeling.

I don't see the relevance of it being done while in the brig, anyway. The Mime has already shown that they're either an antag, or are willing to grief Sec FNR, so if he escapes from the Brig it's not an unreasonable assumption that he's going to continue doing either of those things. And if the station's in that level of absolute disrepair, him doing that is going to lead to the deaths of many people.

SS13 is a game where you never have all of the answers, and you're doing the best you can with what you have. I don't think this is a case where that doesn't apply. A HoS was dealing with his team constantly dying, and was faced with someone who has already either tried to help a fellow antag, or just griefed them. If he leaves them be, there's a very high chance that they'll do so again, which will lead to the death of what little of Sec is remaining, which means the antags will run the station unopposed. And for the "yeah but OOC winning vs RP" front, just swap the word "antag" to "Hostile" and remove the part about Griefing, and it all still makes sense from an IC perspective.

It's entirely reasonable.

HoS had no clue what the mimes history was.

Permabrig was known to be destroyed, someone in the cell is in there for a reason, and if it's timerless then there's a completely reasonable assumption that, with the permabrig gone, they're being held there pending repairs, or for a Longer Sentence. It's something to worry about later, but if they're going to try and break out, then whatever they did to get them there again is probably going to happen again.

Did anything happen to the Mime too? Did they suffer any punishment for griefing Sec FNR? You have no obligation to tell anyone, sure, but even if I accept Jeff not knowing anything making it a shaky decision, it's not like the Mime didn't have it coming for what they did, and it's not like it makes the Mime's actions any better, so I'd hope it's not just Jeff getting slapped for it.

I'd also hope, even more, that it wasn't the Mime Ahelping that prompted this, because otherwise it seems a rather clearcut case of banbaiting. They fucked around, and then ahelped when they Found Out.

Edit:

Vekter wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:08 am I just read TBM's response, and yeah, that's not great. Honestly? I mean this with 100% sincerity and not from a standpoint of wanting Jeff gone (because I don't). I really do think LRP might just work better for him as a player. Most of his actions would be perfectly acceptable there; all of the issues he's running into are brushing up against MRP rules.

Either that or he's just going to have to learn how to talk things out and not go straight to murder to solve his problems.

Part of the problem is that the game simply doesn't allow for Sec to exist mercifully a lot of the time. With the way Dynamic works, if you havce a round like this, what is Sec supposed to do? They're trying their best, if they go all out to try and bring things back under control, they run afoul of the RP Rules. If they don't, they get killed and the antags get Free Reign. Which would mean not only are they, the Seccies out of the round, but so is everyone killed by the antags they can no longer combat. They'll also have to deal with everyone insulting them for not doing enough.

The rules exist to allow for better RP and to create a better balance for Antags who want to RP, and Sec who want to make sure they don't get steamrolled. But they're only ever enforced on Sec, leaving Antags to play as hard as they want to. It doesn't matter how dire of a situation the station is under, or that Security is facing, the scrutiny will always be on them.

Whatever happened to fuck around and find out? Interfering with arrest and attempting to escape sounds like something I'd kill for. Cell being timerless muddies the water though. I feel like Jeff is stuck in an endless loop of "your history sucks so we're making it worse". Recently, dynamic has been making a lot more threat on Manuel, which generally makes it impossible to "catch and release" any antagonist, as you've got 15 different antags killing people while you're brigging one.
I've not been in that round though, so I cant speak if the response was warranted.

Aiding and abetting has always opened you up to the same punishment as the original offender.

I did bring that up in ASAY, but I'm not sure Jeff actually knew at the time what that original offense was? Might just be my limited context.

Sightld2 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:40 am I did bring that up in ASAY, but I'm not sure Jeff actually knew at the time what that original offense was? Might just be my limited context.

from the appeal

JupiterJaeden wrote:"The mime was spared. Because I was not sure exactly what their offense was"

from the ticket

JupiterJaeden wrote:yes because I had no clue what the hell was going on with him which is why I didnt bust his skull open immediately

from this thread

TheBibleMelts wrote:HoS had no clue what the mimes history was.

honestly still not sure if we can conclusively say whether jeff knew what the mime had done or not and i don't think it's wise to draw conclusions at this point based on that

Just play LRP because holy shit that history of security notes and bans is quite extensive

I'm finding it funny that we have multiple admins saying "just play lrp" when there are far, far worse players on manuel.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:15 am I'm finding it funny that we have multiple admins saying "just play lrp" when there are far, far worse players on manuel.

Just curious, but examples please?

What is the mrp take on interference with arrests? On LRP it's usually kill them and I've seen admins encouraging people to ahelp for it.

What do you do on mrp if you can't kill them (I'm assuming) as to some less robust seccies I speak to people interfereing with arrests makes the role absolutely miserable. Is there any ic way to deal with it or is it like purely ooc

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:21 am What is the mrp take on interference with arrests? On LRP it's usually kill them and I've seen admins encouraging people to ahelp for it.

What do you do on mrp if you can't kill them (I'm assuming) as to some less robust seccies I speak to people interfereing with arrests makes the role absolutely miserable. Is there any ic way to deal with it or is it like purely ooc

Basically the same punishment as the person to be arrested

So falls under RPR 6.

Also he was ALREADY arrested for interfering with an arrest and dealt with. The contention is that the mime was lasered to death for being outside his cell and trying to free the arrested detective.

Striders13 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:53 am Whatever happened to fuck around and find out?

"fuck around and find out" has been one of the worst things to happen to appeals, its overuse always had irked me

Who cares if they didn't know the mime was arrested for aiding a changeling. That mime was also escaping prison and trying to free a detective charged with mutiny.

Why do people find it odd you get shot when you jailbreak yourself and at the same time start a jailbreak with the brig full of high level offenders? Especially when the permabrig is already out of commission.

I'm a bit iffy on this one, but this seems like a somewhat EmpressMaia-like case.

The player is racking up additional notes and bans because he has additional notes and bans.

If you take his entire note history out of the picture, is this really a rule break scenario?

It's also important not to consider the admin perspective, which has the benefit of perfect and complete information, when handling investigations and instead consider the player perspective. The admin perspective is useful to establish if you even need to speak to the player at all and is thr first filter, but once you are involved it's all about the player and their IC reasons.

Firstly, was the player's perspective a reasonable one to have within the scope of the shift and incomplete information?

If yes, even if objectively flawed, was there enough subjective IC reasoning for their actions based on that?

If yes, it ends there. Their note history is irrelevant. They didn't break the rules.

When it comes to roles whose entire job is conflict, like sec or antags, I think the most important consideration is not what you would have done in their place. Instead, I'm more interested in bulding a picture around the reasonable range of things to do for a player in their position.

I don't have to care about this anymore since I'm not headmin, but I would be cautious around creating an environment where sec has to play optimally 100 percent of the time. The role is difficult enough without the omnipresent question of "will I get bwoinked for this?"

Idk chief, my very conjectured opinion is that 7 days is too much. I'd have to look at the mime's ahelp and logs, but something like "I was killed fnr" after breaking out of prison, and breaking someone else out is by all accounts not fnr.

I cannot comprehend how this is an issue but then I'm not really MRP pilled. It feels silly to me to keep someone alive who does multiple instances of fuckery just kill them and move on. Your time shouldn't have to be spent babysitting someone who's being a bad faith troll (troll emoji). They should not have protections

Not to spoil anything but the logs may show this is somewhat not as presented. Namely the mime may have been an unfortunate victim of circumstance and poor latency.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:27 pm I cannot comprehend how this is an issue but then I'm not really MRP pilled. It feels silly to me to keep someone alive who does multiple instances of fuckery just kill them and move on. Your time shouldn't have to be spent babysitting someone who's being a bad faith troll (troll emoji). They should not have protections

🧌
Noob.

M*me players get what they fucking deserve tbqh

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:17 pm M*me players get what they fucking deserve tbqh

Mimes are way more likely to be shitters than clowns IMO.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:27 pm

Jackraxxus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:17 pm M*me players get what they fucking deserve tbqh

Mimes are way more likely to be shitters than clowns IMO.

It's only natural when they've picked the job which can't talk in the social roleplaying game.

sorry but i won't be entertaining any fanfiction in this thread over what happened when i sat and watched the whole thing firsthand. the only thing i didn't see is what the mime did to end up in a cell, and after scouring the logs i can't actually find anything to say they shoved anyone, so even i may be wrong on that front: they may have done even less.

i am absolutely fine with everything else jeff did given the circumstances. he iced a lot of people that round (either personally or on his orders) and it was all well deserved given the context, but the mime simply was not. they were bucklecuffed in a timerless cell for almost 10 minutes. jeff, without knowing what they did or why they were left in a cell, stopped their release:

JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "leave mime in ther"

then when presented with the opportunity to leave they tried to take it. after witnessing jeff yell out that the crew should arm against antags and that he was going lethal against all of them over comms, i wouldn't want to be in a cell anywhere near him either:

JupiterJaeden/(Jeff Gaiman) "At this time all regular crew are called upon to neutralize all enemies of the corporation with whatever means possible."

the mime put up an invisible wall in front of the only exit they had to the cell block, with jeff and the warden standing outside in full speaking range. jeff said nothing to the mime, and just waited for the wall to dissipate before lasering them to death. the mime was not running freely for the exit, they had made it out of their cell and were still firmly trapped in the cell block hallway deep within the brig. there was no chase or manhunt: they weren't running anywhere because they had nowhere to run to.

when pressed on his IC reasoning, it basically amounted to "i don't know why they were in there or what they did." when asked if he thought what he did was reasonable, and if he thought he could've treated the mime any differently given the fact that they were stuck in a timerless cell and no one knew why, he didn't seem to accept budging on the issue.

i am fine with hitting people with rule 10 and saying look dude, you got hit with a shitty situation and you lost, it's a red alert and the hos was less lenient for your crimes and capped you, nothing to be done about it, but for that to work i expect the executioner to have some IC idea of what those crimes were outside of trying to walk out of your cell when you were left bucklecuffed in there with no timer set for almost 10 minutes.

at the very least, when you're standing there with a gun staring through the window at someone who's helpless and cornered, try talking to them? give them an order to go in a cell? then laser them if they don't comply? i personally would've had no issue with this, and really it's the crux of the issue that's being repeated again and again every time it comes up. it's the 1 thing i would like jeff to try harder at in future because he's a good player otherwise, but the mime was given nothing this entire time. i'm not looking for jeff to stand there and write an essay, but i am looking for literally anything to suggest some semblance of interaction happened when there's no good reason not to.

First of all a couple notes on the history.

The admin message from atlanta-ned was lifted as it was meant for another person. (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34334)
The ban about blood brothers was also lifted and the associated note was deleted. (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34764)
^ At a minimum please remove these two from the post. I have no idea why they were even put in there considering they are both 100% lifted

Wait what the fuck? Did TBM seriously try to quote notes that were removed as part of this guy's note history?

playing hos / warden is like running a daycare center in an asylum, that's why I play det instead. jeff lasted a good while but the note tsunami is gaining momentum. I look forward to when he goes postal and becomes an absolute shithead always rolling antag / throwing brig tantrums consistently.

GPeckman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:20 pm

First of all a couple notes on the history.

The admin message from atlanta-ned was lifted as it was meant for another person. (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34334)
The ban about blood brothers was also lifted and the associated note was deleted. (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34764)
^ At a minimum please remove these two from the post. I have no idea why they were even put in there considering they are both 100% lifted

Wait what the fuck? Did TBM seriously try to quote notes that were removed as part of this guy's note history?

Ned's message should've been removed when the note was lifted. tbm's mention of the blood brother's note was a mistake though, the note was removed when the ban was lifted.

This is what we in the field call a "whoopsie-doodle".

GPeckman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:20 pm

First of all a couple notes on the history.

The admin message from atlanta-ned was lifted as it was meant for another person. (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34334)
The ban about blood brothers was also lifted and the associated note was deleted. (viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34764)
^ At a minimum please remove these two from the post. I have no idea why they were even put in there considering they are both 100% lifted

Wait what the fuck? Did TBM seriously try to quote notes that were removed as part of this guy's note history?

yeah, looks like the DB doesn't erase notes. it's been since fixed.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:50 pm I'm a bit iffy on this one, but this seems like a somewhat EmpressMaia-like case.
[blblblblbblbl[

can we coin maia-esque

So it turns out Mime wasn't some asshole, he was just unlucky.

Fuck around and find out, my ass.

also yeah jeff is really cool ingame and out of game, he just needs to talk a bit more

EmpressMaia wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:56 pm

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:50 pm I'm a bit iffy on this one, but this seems like a somewhat EmpressMaia-like case.
[blblblblbblbl[

can we coin maia-esque

I'd rather coin [blblblblbblbl[ for when Timber goes on a ramble with a pointing finger that looks like a spinning bottle.

conrad wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:37 pm This is what we in the field call a "whoopsie-doodle".

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:46 pm yeah, looks like the DB doesn't erase notes. it's been since fixed.

Yeah, it does seem like it was a genuine mistake. Fair enough.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:21 am What is the mrp take on interference with arrests? On LRP it's usually kill them and I've seen admins encouraging people to ahelp for it.

What do you do on mrp if you can't kill them (I'm assuming) as to some less robust seccies I speak to people interfereing with arrests makes the role absolutely miserable. Is there any ic way to deal with it or is it like purely ooc

Wait you can just kill shitters who interfere with arrests for no reason on LRP? And you won't get bwoinked? Damn I should start doing that.

GPeckman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:14 pm

conrad wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:37 pm This is what we in the field call a "whoopsie-doodle".

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:46 pm yeah, looks like the DB doesn't erase notes. it's been since fixed.

Yeah, it does seem like it was a genuine mistake. Fair enough.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:21 am What is the mrp take on interference with arrests? On LRP it's usually kill them and I've seen admins encouraging people to ahelp for it.

What do you do on mrp if you can't kill them (I'm assuming) as to some less robust seccies I speak to people interfereing with arrests makes the role absolutely miserable. Is there any ic way to deal with it or is it like purely ooc

Wait you can just kill shitters who interfere with arrests for no reason on LRP? And you won't get bwoinked? Damn I should start doing that.

it depends on how they're interfering, but yeah if you're trying to arrest a traitor and some grayshirt keeps shoving you/trying to take your baton/repeatedly dragging the guy away from you, i would not question putting that grayshirt in the morgue.

You've been put in a cell for almost 10 minutes without any timer, then you hear lasers and the (arrested) detective starts talking about how the HoS is insane and is executing prisoners, don't tell me you also wouldn't try to break out.

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:58 pm You've been put in a cell for almost 10 minutes without any timer, then you hear lasers and the (arrested) detective starts talking about how the HoS is insane and is executing prisoners, don't tell me you also wouldn't try to break out.

I would break out, but I wouldn't whine if I would choose to break out other prisoners and got shot for it.

CPTANT wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:00 pm

AsbestosSniffer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:58 pm You've been put in a cell for almost 10 minutes without any timer, then you hear lasers and the (arrested) detective starts talking about how the HoS is insane and is executing prisoners, don't tell me you also wouldn't try to break out.

I would break out, but I wouldn't whine if I would choose to break out other prisoners and got shot for it.

The mime wasn't breaking out any random prisoner, he was breaking out the detective. This whole situation clearly led to a lot of confusion in security as other officers refused to carry out Jeff's orders, both intentionally and unintentionally. I witnessed the whole situation firsthand.