/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:00 pm**

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79638

I dislike the Eris artstyle.
I do not want more microplastics in my sprites.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:15 pm**

Lack of readability is really a semi beginner spriting mistake.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:32 pm**

Ok I don't hate it, but I can't fucking read the damn logos.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:38 pm**

Hot take but they look fine, only real readability issue I had was with the Syndicate locker and it's blood red, so it's obvious it's syndicate.

I don't like the shading that we're apparently eventually going to have on everything, but it's far beyond the point in time where me whining about that would change anything.

Anyway I'm just going to leave this here, no reason.

We introduced a new company-wide policy that I felt was relatively benign. What happened next was that, from my point of view, the engineering team completely lost it. No one agreed with this policy, and they made it known over seemingly hundreds of Slack pings. After an afternoon of going back and forth, I walked away feeling emotionally drained. What had happened to my amazing coworkers that were so kind and wonderful? I felt attacked and diminished. It seemed people weren’t valuing my work or my judgment.

I went home for the weekend and stewed in my frustration. [..] I decided I wanted to look back at our Slack conversations and see which one of my coworkers was being the rudest and the most unreasonable. I wanted to give them direct feedback that they had hurt my feelings.

As I went back through that Friday afternoon chat log, I was shocked to see that no one had been hurling insults. [..] There was no one saying mean things about me. In fact, what I found was that people had some well put together arguments about why they felt this policy was a bad idea. The entire engineering department definitely made their criticisms known, but I didn’t find people questioning my ability as a manager, throwing around insults, or saying anything that that illustrated why I was feeling so targeted.

That was when something became crystal clear: my coworkers hadn’t become monsters, they were still the kind and caring people I thought they were. The monster in this case is not one person, it was created when lots of people, even with great intentions, publicly disagreed with you at the same time. Even kind feedback can come off as caustic and mean when there is a mob of people behind it. No matter how nicely they say it, when a large group of people you really respect publicly challenge something you’ve done it can feel like a personal attack.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:42 pm**

ill be honest I think this PR would be way more of a nothingburger if he wasn't intentionally naming it to court controversy

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:44 pm**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:42 pm ill be honest I think this PR would be way more of a nothingburger if he wasn't intentionally naming it to court controversy

While I disagree that people wouldn't hate it if it weren't named as it is, having talked to the person making these PRs once before the crate resprite, they seem to get a lot of enjoyment in making people angry.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:48 pm**

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:44 pm
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:42 pm ill be honest I think this PR would be way more of a nothingburger if he wasn't intentionally naming it to court controversy
While I disagree that people wouldn't hate it if it weren't named as it is, having talked to the person making these PRs once before the crate resprite, they seem to get a lot of enjoyment in making people angry.

Yeah I wish the spriter put more work into getting along with everybody or at the very least disengaged rather than bickering with people.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:53 pm**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:42 pm ill be honest I think this PR would be way more of a nothingburger if he wasn't intentionally naming it to court controversy

Yeah, I don't like how they lean into it so hard like they're being Jokerfied or some shit. It's not a good look and it's just going to cause them more grief in the long run.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:54 pm**

Honestly this pr is just flamebating, the name "crates pt.2" their about is literally a pic of the sprite with the text "digg thread incoming. :') wip while I fuck around w/ some stuff. first one to give a digg thumbs-down gets a cookie." and their why its good for the game is "it's really not.", idk why you would ever pr something that you think is shit. I don't like this behaviour at all and all this shit results in is drama stirring.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:57 pm**

they look cool but like everyone else the readability is a lot worse than what we currently have. it's a lot more busy visually while not making important gameplay information clear at a glance.

positives: they look stronger, more reinforced? pretty cool

idk who the contributor is but their attitude is quite poor

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:07 pm**

Oh yay another Viro resprite. Same issues as before, will get merged anyways.

Guess they ran out of hate comments to jack off to. Seeing as they are intentionally trying to bait people.

Edit since I might as well contribute something:

They look too dark, too “glossy” for lack of a better word, and somehow look more narrow than the old lockers. For instance, engineering lockers look like they’re made out of gold and medical ones look like they’re made out of silver.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:11 pm**

spriter wrote:I believe a lot of the thoughts on them being "unrecognizable" are just people's brains being ingrained from playing this game too much, so anything different is "unrecognizable".

Zero people in this thread or on the PR called the sprites unrecognizable. That guy fuckin sucks.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:13 pm**

Most of them are too cluttered, but I'm actually okay with the Syndie locker on the bottom left.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:14 pm**

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:11 pm
spriter wrote:I believe a lot of the thoughts on them being "unrecognizable" are just people's brains being ingrained from playing this game too much, so anything different is "unrecognizable".
Zero people in this thread or on the PR called the sprites unrecognizable. That guy fuckin sucks.

There’s a few people saying that it’s hard to tell what some lockers (engineering ones) are at a glance. Someone else said something about the syndie locker logo being really faint.

Also forgot to say this earlier but 10/10 title.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:16 pm**

I think the plain locker looks the best tbh, this is a pretty good resprite but I don't like the details, they make the sprite as a whole look a lot more muddy and unclear.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:17 pm**

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:14 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:11 pm
spriter wrote:I believe a lot of the thoughts on them being "unrecognizable" are just people's brains being ingrained from playing this game too much, so anything different is "unrecognizable".
Zero people in this thread or on the PR called the sprites unrecognizable. That guy fuckin sucks.
There’s a few people saying that it’s hard to tell what some lockers (engineering ones) are at a glance. Someone else said something about the syndie locker logo being really faint.

That's far from being "unrecognizable". I can tell those are, for example, engineering lockers. I'm having trouble looking if it is a fire symbol for the welding locker, or the wrench for the tools locker.

Also

spriter wrote:I will say, however, that this is just objectively incorrect.

Fuck that attitude.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:44 pm**

10/10 thread title

cool blurry symbols coder bros

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:47 pm**

It's okay to use color contrasting; extremely limited color palettes only make sense if you pick good, contrasting colors and utilize them appropriately. That's kind of the point of the exercise.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:52 pm**

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:17 pm That's far from being "unrecognizable". I can tell those are, for example, engineering lockers. I'm having trouble looking if it is a fire symbol for the welding locker, or the wrench for the tools locker.

This confuses me a little because those ones are one of the clearest upgrades to me, using contrasting colours and having the emblems clearer than they were on the original (where what was supposed to be fire sort of just looks like a little house)

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:56 pm**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:52 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:17 pm That's far from being "unrecognizable". I can tell those are, for example, engineering lockers. I'm having trouble looking if it is a fire symbol for the welding locker, or the wrench for the tools locker.
This confuses me a little because those ones are one of the clearest upgrades to me, using contrasting colours and having the emblems clearer than they were on the original (where what was supposed to be fire sort of just looks like a little house)

Hot take, maybe my eyes are fucked and the new sprites are harder for someone like me to read than the old ones.

I'll add as well that it has nothing to do with "being used to the old ones", 'cos they are very well contrasted in the old sprites.

Like I said in the PR, the news ones are better looking, but I can't read half the logos, which I think makes them worse sprites.

Posted: **Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:59 pm**

That PR title is 100% drama bait. Its kind of a shame about that, I actually think these new sprites look pretty damn good.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:57 pm idk who the contributor is but their attitude is quite poor

Do you remember the crate resprite drama from a few months back? Its the same spriter who made that PR. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but that PR title is absolutely meant to stir drama.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:05 am**

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:56 pm
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:52 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:17 pm That's far from being "unrecognizable". I can tell those are, for example, engineering lockers. I'm having trouble looking if it is a fire symbol for the welding locker, or the wrench for the tools locker.
This confuses me a little because those ones are one of the clearest upgrades to me, using contrasting colours and having the emblems clearer than they were on the original (where what was supposed to be fire sort of just looks like a little house)
Hot take, maybe my eyes are fucked and the new sprites are harder for someone like me to read than the old ones.

I'll add as well that it has nothing to do with "being used to the old ones", 'cos they are very well contrasted in the old sprites.

Like I said in the PR, the news ones are better looking, but I can't read half the logos, which I think makes them worse sprites.

Far be it from me to cast too many aspersions upon your eyes but the new engineering logos are both larger than the previous ones, and also further in terms of colour contrast from the base shade (which in the original was literally just a darker shade of the same colour used for the locker).

It's very difficult for me to understand how this is harder to make out.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:05 am**

GPeckman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:59 pm That PR title is 100% drama bait. Its kind of a shame about that, I actually think these new sprites look pretty damn good.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:57 pm idk who the contributor is but their attitude is quite poor
Do you remember the crate resprite drama from a few months back? Its the same spriter who made that PR. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but that PR title is absolutely meant to stir drama.

They also are behind the cargo resprite.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:07 am**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:05 am
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:56 pm
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:52 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:17 pm That's far from being "unrecognizable". I can tell those are, for example, engineering lockers. I'm having trouble looking if it is a fire symbol for the welding locker, or the wrench for the tools locker.
This confuses me a little because those ones are one of the clearest upgrades to me, using contrasting colours and having the emblems clearer than they were on the original (where what was supposed to be fire sort of just looks like a little house)
Hot take, maybe my eyes are fucked and the new sprites are harder for someone like me to read than the old ones.

I'll add as well that it has nothing to do with "being used to the old ones", 'cos they are very well contrasted in the old sprites.

Like I said in the PR, the news ones are better looking, but I can't read half the logos, which I think makes them worse sprites.

Far be it from me to cast too many aspersions upon your eyes but the new engineering logos are both larger than the previous ones, and also further in terms of colour contrast from the base shade (which in the original was literally just a darker shade of the same colour used for the locker).

It's very difficult for me to understand how this is harder to make out.

Putting them like this, I can clearly see that they're the same.

Putting it like this tho:

It kinda blurs it to me on the spritesheet black background. With the old sprites, that doesn't happen.

I think it's that shading halfway through the logo.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:08 am**

None of those look similar at all to me, and I have clinically quite poor vision, but I guess that's just one of those human weirdnesses.
I will say that I don't think the middle one looks that much like a lightning bolt, could do with a bit less fattening but there's not a lot of workable area to do it in.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:09 am**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:05 am It's very difficult for me to understand how this is harder to make out.

For me at least it's the fact that there are so many more color shades to discern from on the new one.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:12 am**

It looks like this part was added by Viro in one edit of the PR, then removed by a maintainer via github bot (unless the bot did it automatically?) only to be re-added by Viro.

first one to give a digg thumbs-down gets a cookie.

Re-adding it is certainly a bold move. At least they removed it before undrafting the PR.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:34 am**

Indie-ana Jones wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:44 pm
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:42 pm ill be honest I think this PR would be way more of a nothingburger if he wasn't intentionally naming it to court controversy
While I disagree that people wouldn't hate it if it weren't named as it is, having talked to the person making these PRs once before the crate resprite, they seem to get a lot of enjoyment in making people angry.

i really wish maintainers would stop humoring their behavior. they clearly do these kinds of things just to get a rise out of people

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:36 am**

After 2 rounds of playing with them, you'll like them or at the very least not notice them
This is just the classic human "change = bad" (of which I myself am guilty of)

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:53 am**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:05 am
Far be it from me to cast too many aspersions upon your eyes but the new engineering logos are both larger than the previous ones, and also further in terms of colour contrast from the base shade (which in the original was literally just a darker shade of the same colour used for the locker).

It's very difficult for me to understand how this is harder to make out.

there are 4 different shades of yellow next to the logo

: paintdotnet_TyQjjxZCYU.png (11.42 KiB) Viewed 25678 times

the logo itself is also made up of 4 different shades

: paintdotnet_TyQjjxZCYU2.png (9.57 KiB) Viewed 25678 times

all of these shades are not just value shifts but they are also hue shifts. the old engineering locker's logo was only a value shift which is why it's easier to read- or at least for me. hue shifts look a lot more pretty but readability can suffer a lot because of it

the two colors are below are used on the main engineering logo (editor's note: hue loops around in a 0-360 fashion, so these colors are about 60 degrees apart)

: paintdotnet_GsAo3FpxVN.png (59.1 KiB) Viewed 25678 times

: paintdotnet_blrs8P8XMW.png (59.03 KiB) Viewed 25678 times

fun fact about the old engineering locker: it is entirely made up of one single hue. even the white strip is the same hue. it's really funny

the new sprites are "prettier" but i think they are simply harder to read. the new locker i can go "oh yeah there's definitely something on the front of it" but it's just really hard to discern the logos next to each other

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:54 am**

why would they name it that

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:57 am**

I guess they could be worse but in terms of resprites that isn't a good thing

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:11 am**

if your ‘why this is good for the game’ is “it really isn’t” i think that should be instant grounds for denial unless you can make an actual reason

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:22 am**

im gonna miss the stripes
stripes are cool
if i were a locker manufacturer i'd put stripes on my lockers before going out of business because i do not have the economy of scale to compete on this market

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:23 am**

I'll at least give them props for actually doing all the fucking work and respriting ALL of it this time instead of half assing it so someone has to come fix their shit. (https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/77964 they couldn't be assed to actually resprite the winter coats or berets so cargo was half yellow half brown after their PR and it looked HORRIBLE)

saprasam wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:11 am if your ‘why this is good for the game’ is “it really isn’t” i think that should be instant grounds for denial unless you can make an actual reason

Two tier contributor system.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:26 am**

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:53 am Perfect explanation of my issues with the new sprites.

I agree with this.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:37 am**

The lockers seem fine, or at least aren't a huge problem. I just want the mosin nagant back.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:49 am**

dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:37 am The lockers seem fine, or at least aren't a huge problem. I just want the mosin nagant back.

um aktually mosins being 600 years into the future is unrealistic please ignore the fungus controlled skeletons, bipedal lizards, sentient lightbulbs, cat human mongrels, employed clowns and mimes, space dragons, space carps, nar'sie, all these other real life references, etc. the giant pieces of green plastic that also have a russian name but are from 300 years ago is way more okay

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:12 am**

it really pisses me off when they address a valid complaint with "ur brain just isnt used 2 it lol"

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:25 am**

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:49 am
dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:37 am The lockers seem fine, or at least aren't a huge problem. I just want the mosin nagant back.
um aktually mosins being 600 years into the future is unrealistic please ignore the fungus controlled skeletons, bipedal lizards, sentient lightbulbs, cat human mongrels, employed clowns and mimes, space dragons, space carps, nar'sie, all these other real life references, etc. the giant pieces of green plastic that also have a russian name but are from 300 years ago is way more okay

That's a bad argument. The unrealistic stuff you mentioned isn't a problem, and the mosin problem wasn't lack of realism, it was anachronism. You could compare it's removal against the existence of celulose pressed paper, for example.

Then again the problematic aspect of its removal was never anachronism anyway. It was SOULLLLLL. I wouldn't have minded it being removed if the replacement wasn't anime grll with guns self insert fan fiction "THE BLOCKONARON MK5 v2.0 FULL METAL JACKET" or whetever got added.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:34 am**

why bring up the mosin at all, that wasn't their pr

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 4:05 am**

conrad wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:25 am
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:49 am
dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:37 am The lockers seem fine, or at least aren't a huge problem. I just want the mosin nagant back.
um aktually mosins being 600 years into the future is unrealistic please ignore the fungus controlled skeletons, bipedal lizards, sentient lightbulbs, cat human mongrels, employed clowns and mimes, space dragons, space carps, nar'sie, all these other real life references, etc. the giant pieces of green plastic that also have a russian name but are from 300 years ago is way more okay
That's a bad argument. The unrealistic stuff you mentioned isn't a problem, and the mosin problem wasn't lack of realism, it was anachronism. You could compare it's removal against the existence of celulose pressed paper, for example.

Then again the problematic aspect of its removal was never anachronism anyway. It was SOULLLLLL. I wouldn't have minded it being removed if the replacement wasn't anime grll with guns self insert fan fiction "THE BLOCKONARON MK5 v2.0 FULL METAL JACKET" or whetever got added.

i would have preferred it being flat-out removed over being replaced with anime oc gun

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:06 am**

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:34 am why bring up the mosin at all, that wasn't their pr

Because in my mind every spriter is a mosin murderer

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:17 am**

First they came for the fire alarms. I did not speak up, for I was not an atmospheric technician.
Then they came for the crates. I did not speak up, for I was not a cargo technician.
Then they came for the mosins. I did not speak up, for I was not a centcomm intern.
Then they came for the closets. And by that time there was no one left to speak up.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:19 am**

conrad wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 3:25 am
RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:49 am
dirk_mcblade wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:37 am The lockers seem fine, or at least aren't a huge problem. I just want the mosin nagant back.
um aktually mosins being 600 years into the future is unrealistic please ignore the fungus controlled skeletons, bipedal lizards, sentient lightbulbs, cat human mongrels, employed clowns and mimes, space dragons, space carps, nar'sie, all these other real life references, etc. the giant pieces of green plastic that also have a russian name but are from 300 years ago is way more okay
That's a bad argument. The unrealistic stuff you mentioned isn't a problem, and the mosin problem wasn't lack of realism, it was anachronism. You could compare it's removal against the existence of celulose pressed paper, for example.

Then again the problematic aspect of its removal was never anachronism anyway. It was SOULLLLLL. I wouldn't have minded it being removed if the replacement wasn't anime grll with guns self insert fan fiction "THE BLOCKONARON MK5 v2.0 FULL METAL JACKET" or whetever got added.

Anachronism isn't a problem, the mosin was a joke inclusion to begin with and now it's basically a polluted version of its old self.
Instead of it being a /k/ meme now it's just a weeaboo shitty rifle trying to look cool.
Ironic because it's a fate shared by more than a few mosins that ended up in bubba's hands. I should learn how to do PRs so I can just change their names and descriptions to Bubba's Mosin. It'd be the lowest effort way to restore some of its lost honor.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:24 am**

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:05 am
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:56 pm
Jacquerel wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:52 pm
conrad wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:17 pm That's far from being "unrecognizable". I can tell those are, for example, engineering lockers. I'm having trouble looking if it is a fire symbol for the welding locker, or the wrench for the tools locker.
This confuses me a little because those ones are one of the clearest upgrades to me, using contrasting colours and having the emblems clearer than they were on the original (where what was supposed to be fire sort of just looks like a little house)
Hot take, maybe my eyes are fucked and the new sprites are harder for someone like me to read than the old ones.

I'll add as well that it has nothing to do with "being used to the old ones", 'cos they are very well contrasted in the old sprites.

Like I said in the PR, the news ones are better looking, but I can't read half the logos, which I think makes them worse sprites.

Far be it from me to cast too many aspersions upon your eyes but the new engineering logos are both larger than the previous ones, and also further in terms of colour contrast from the base shade (which in the original was literally just a darker shade of the same colour used for the locker).

It's very difficult for me to understand how this is harder to make out.

>uses the most clear sprite to prove the sprites are just fine

something smells

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:28 am**

trying to be as inflammatory as possible on your PR should be grounds for denial

also "it isnt" in the why its good for the game parts probably also means deny

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:40 am**

jimmyl wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:28 am trying to be as inflammatory as possible on your PR should be grounds for denial

also "it isnt" in the why its good for the game parts probably also means deny

again, two tier contributor system. If this was a random no-name it would have been shot down immediately for that behavior alone. It's not the first time Viro has half assed their "why is it good for the game" part. Reminder: some guy got his barsign PR denied after being told that it was approved at the end of the barsign competition because he complained about his antag token being only for minor antags or something on the discord

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/79523

Not saying this random guy is in the right, infact he seems to be complaining that he got gifted a minor antag token because he didn't get in the top five or whatever to get full on antag tokens, but it's pretty clear there's a double standard.

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:49 am**

contributor segregation

Posted: **Sat Nov 11, 2023 9:12 am**

The spriter is obviously a inflammatory dickhead with special priviliges.

I just wonder if they stem from his Maintainer cuddlebuddies or something else, like "the Wallening" which grants him authority to resprite as he wants as long as it comes with perspective changes changes, since some of our current sprites may not be compatible.
I think I heard something like that when the crate massacre happened, but then that wouldn't explain him being allowed to half-ass things a la cargo clothing and MULE sizes.

/tg/Station 13

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