/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 7:57 pm**

Man greenshifts really do suck don't they?

I mean sure if you are really invested in doing a single job's content for an hour or more maybe you can tease some fun out of it, but even then I would argue less than half the jobs really have interesting things to do in an environment without conflict. There's no holes for engineer to patch up if there are no bombs. There are no people to heal if no one is hurting them. There's no evil to stand off against if there aren't any antagonists.

The roleplay content will naturally be worse as well. Without "current events" happening on the station the best you can do is dribble onto each other about character backstory, which is the roleplay equivalent of making small talk about the weather. There's nothing to "roleplay" about.

And sure, there is interpersonal conflict. Scraps that add a little bit of tension. That can make some alright roleplay, might lead to some fighting which can be fun. But naturally if we expect the main driving force of conflict to be a spat between two co-workers, the story doesn't end up all that dramatic. And if everyone is following escalation policy correctly, then there aren't any stakes either.

And finally the shuttle. The grand finale to any shift. Will almost certainly be called because someone is bored. But why else would it be called? If there are no antagonists, and everyone else is following the rules, the station should really never be in a state where a shuttle call is justified. But this isn't a game about workers on a space station doing their job ad-infinitum, its a game about the shift something going horribly wrong on a space station, and the crew has to evacuate or die. So naturally, people are bored, and they would rather play on a shift that wasn't so boring. This is a completely out of character justification for their actions, but it would be ridiculous to force players to stay in a round that they don't really have a purpose to be in. The only thing to do is completely break fiction. Characters working away endlessly at their job should be something that is off camera that takes place before or after the events on space station 13, not something the players should be doing.

So we end up with a mostly conflict-less shift, in which you did some menial task, had some pointless conversations, and didn't even get a decent ending.

And here's the worst part, so often with low threat shifts it only takes an inactive traitor or two to revert the entire station into a greenshift. If there are two traitors, and one gets caught and killed early on, and the other completes their theft objectives and then lays low for the rest of the shift, then boom we are back at the greenshift. Doomed to an eventual shuttle call out of boredom.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:14 pm**

I would rather have 2 tots who get caught than 15 who rule the halls like fantastical god-kings of yore

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:24 pm**

warbluke wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:14 pm I would rather have 2 tots who get caught than 15 who rule the halls like fantastical god-kings of yore

Luckily, with dynamic, we can have both!

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:37 pm**

make your own fun

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:50 pm**

If you're not taking the opportunity to make an elaborate death trap on a greenshift what's the point of anything I guess

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:55 pm**

i think the biggest issue rn is that there really is no "greenshift". there's still the green shift announcement at the start but more often than not it sprinkles in an antag or two in the midrolls.
and then sometimes it's 6 threat but it still made a single person a traitor. so everyone is still in valid mode and nothing cool is getting done. it's until like 30 minutes in that everyone confirms that there's no nukies or culties or whatever that you can finally make gimmick preparations.

i liked it when secret was unapologetic about it being a greenshift. it meant all hands on deck to get people engaged. it still absolutely sucked balls though when it was like the third greenshift of the day. but in my personal opinion, i'd rather not be constantly blue balled.

Spoiler:

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:18 pm**

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:55 pm i think the biggest issue rn is that there really is no "greenshift". there's still the green shift announcement at the start but more often than not it sprinkles in an antag or two in the midrolls.
and then sometimes it's 6 threat but it still made a single person a traitor. so everyone is still in valid mode and nothing cool is getting done. it's until like 30 minutes in that everyone confirms that there's no nukies or culties or whatever that you can finally make gimmick preparations.

I get what you mean, but, everytime it's a greenshift or the antags rn't antagging, I either get ahelps/prayers asking to add threat or a few people try to call the shuttle to move on to the next round. Some players simply want antags, so there will always be an issue, regardless of it being a greenshift or not. Truth is, there will always be an issue to someone and it's impossible to make everyone happy because everyone has a different taste. Personally, I like both high-action and low-action rounds but some people are leaning solely towards one side and we don't have places to satisfy everyone bc dynamic is global

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:18 pm**

I don't like greenshifts. Mostly because I find it hard to interact meaningfully with other people when there's nothing going on.
This usually ends with me greytiding and building some fucked up power draining maint base with 500 devices in it because the round goes long and I can't think of anything to do besides build a place for people to go and get things they don't normally have access to.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:49 pm**

I love greenshifts

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:50 pm**

Greenshifts are great if you actually RP with people.
Talk to people, get fun projects going together! It is very fun, and there is a almost 0 chance of them stabbing you in the back later too!
Getting a BYOS going is one great way to have fun in a greenshift.

The reason people complain is not because there are no antags, it's that they are bored. Maybe admins could do events that are not spawning in antags? An inspector... Tiziran queen showing up... for example. Those really add to a round.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:11 am**

Constellado wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:50 pm Greenshifts are great if you actually RP with people.
Talk to people, get fun projects going together!

What are you role playing about on a greenshift. If the answer is talking about character backstory or similar bar-rp tier encounters I take hardly any enjoyment out of that.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:13 am**

Drag wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:50 pm If you're not taking the opportunity to make an elaborate death trap on a greenshift what's the point of anything I guess

Theres been rulings about not building elaborate death traps as non-antagonists.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:23 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:11 am
Constellado wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:50 pm Greenshifts are great if you actually RP with people.
Talk to people, get fun projects going together!
What are you role playing about on a greenshift. If the answer is talking about character backstory or similar bar-rp tier encounters I take hardly any enjoyment out of that.

It depends on what job you have. I usually play CE so I like to start rennovating a place or buy the BYOS for the crew to have something to do.

For assistant or prisoner, A fun thing to do is to make a ghetto chem setup somewhere and try to make meth or some other chemical in it using ghetto ingredients only. It's fun as a prisoner in icebox to have a warden walk in and go: "The fuck?" as they see the whole armory teleported into perma because I made eigenstasium.

Open the crafting menu, look at all the things and see if you can make something funny with it! Works well with me. Weird things for the crew exploring the station to stop by and stare at for a moment.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:30 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:11 am
What are you role playing about on a greenshift. If the answer is talking about character backstory or similar bar-rp tier encounters I take hardly any enjoyment out of that.

It's possible to engage with other people without having an elaborate backstory or bar-rp

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:31 am**

Justice12354 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:18 pm
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:55 pm i think the biggest issue rn is that there really is no "greenshift". there's still the green shift announcement at the start but more often than not it sprinkles in an antag or two in the midrolls.
and then sometimes it's 6 threat but it still made a single person a traitor. so everyone is still in valid mode and nothing cool is getting done. it's until like 30 minutes in that everyone confirms that there's no nukies or culties or whatever that you can finally make gimmick preparations.
I get what you mean, but, everytime it's a greenshift or the antags rn't antagging, I either get ahelps/prayers asking to add threat or a few people try to call the shuttle to move on to the next round. Some players simply want antags, so there will always be an issue, regardless of it being a greenshift or not. Truth is, there will always be an issue to someone and it's impossible to make everyone happy because everyone has a different taste. Personally, I like both high-action and low-action rounds but some people are leaning solely towards one side and we don't have places to satisfy everyone bc dynamic is global

(my point is that right now that the "greenshifts" are not unapologetically greenshifts, so we end up getting the worst parts of greenshifts (nothing happening) and none of the good parts of them because nobody even knows it's a greenshift)

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:44 am**

I like greenshifts similar to how I like mid or high threat rounds in proportion. Greenshifts are great for chilling or just cooling off from a high threat round, and highthreats are good for getting everyone to let out any sort of pent up bloodlust, midrounds are great for both but it's more of a diceroll

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:04 am**

I don't like them. Not every job is set up to have something interesting to do while a greenshift is ongoing (security and medical most notably), and while its nice to talk to people and whatnot, players can still RP just fine when there are threats just the same as when there isn't. Why cut out a core component of the game, paranoia, to promote players to do something they could have done in a round with antags regardless?

Also, these stations aren't deathtraps without antagonists. The worst thing that might happen to you naturally is you find a russian mob in maint or something or die on lavaland.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:46 am**

i like them and think they're an important part of balancing out rounds - sometimes you need a moment of respite to give context to the chaos.

we need a PR that starts playing subway surfers gameplay or family guy clips on half the screen if the threat is below 30.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 2:37 am**

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:30 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:11 am
What are you role playing about on a greenshift. If the answer is talking about character backstory or similar bar-rp tier encounters I take hardly any enjoyment out of that.

It's possible to engage with other people without having an elaborate backstory or bar-rp

do you have an example

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 3:46 am**

I love greenshifts, but I say this as someone who has no struggles in coming up with gimmicks or finding entertainment with the game's mechanics themselves, I really wish that there was more transparency when there's a low threat round - because as it stands right now no one's really sure if it's worth setting up a gimmick. Maybe it's a low threat round but a random blob spawn occurred and the crew wasn't prepared enough to deal with it? Or the shuttle is called early; invalidating all the progress you've made with no payoff.

But for ideas/examples of fun interactions for a greenshift based on job roles...

Security; facilitating rage cage matches where they make clear rules and guidelines for not gibbing/RR'ing someone, providing weaponry or staying to non-lethal methods.
Combat training camp, teaching people how to fight and defend for themselves.
Basketball, laser tag, boxing matches, etc.

Engineering; Large construction projects either on station or making a BYOs, making tubes for fast travel around the station
Setting up a new base in space and make teleporters so that people can visit and check it out
Supermatter tour guides, find willing people and teach them about how the supermatter is set up and how it works. (or atmos)

Science; Xenobio already takes a full hour for anything, but otherwise learning circuits and making neat gimmicks with those or getting genetics done and making the consoles available for anyone interested
make maxcaps and detonate them in lavaland or icemoon wastes, see if you can find a megafauna and test out bombs on them.
Prepare space exploring starter kits and find someone who's never spaced explored before and show them the ropes. (not just eva suits and the bare minimum, prepare meds and everything that would be helpful to ensure survival in space.) Can be pretty fun to put together explorer or survival packs imo.
Find people willing to sign up for being "experimented" on, and do silly shit with express permission. Ensure they get back to medbay if they're hurt.

Medical; Making chem factories, consoles and extra beds for patients, coffee and food for anyone getting out of cryo or malnourished SSD patients
Make metal death traps (that don't gib/RR), get people to sign silly forms that give consent to dying in silly ways, operate on your new patients

Hold health seminars on how to stay healthy and invite people to your formal presentation, make up batshit insane shit and watch peoples reactions

Supply; Decorate/renovate cargo, set up a cargo bar/coffee shop, play with exploration drones or the stock market
Order shaft miner conscription kits and recruit people to join you in megafauna hunting teams
Build a public bitrunning den for people to try it out

Service; Too many that this post would go on forever.

Assistants could also do a "phantom thief" gimmick if you're confident about sneaking around and not getting caught. Leave notes around for Security to find, declare your crimes before they happen and make Security run around and attempt to catch you and see how long you can last.
I also love seeing people set up "ghetto medbays", one shift I got someone to give me lightbulb eyes which I didn't realize makes you blind and I had a blast.

I don't mind the higher threat rounds sometimes, but it really burns me out if they're too often. Greenshifts are what I usually have the most meaningful experiences with, though I also understand it's not everyone's playstyle. I try to set up fun things to interact with when I can, and interact with others gimmicks when I can too.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:09 am**

I just hate that greenshifts have no end condition other than "Everyone got bored so they called the shuttle".

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:16 am**

i miss when green shifts were actually announced & the entire crew decided to go absolutely hog-fucking wild
it was fun

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:25 am**

CPTANT wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:09 am I just hate that greenshifts have no end condition other than "Everyone got bored so they called the shuttle".

But that's wrong - you're supposed to complete the station objective and then call the shuttle. That's what the station objective is there for.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 6:02 pm**

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:25 am
CPTANT wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:09 am I just hate that greenshifts have no end condition other than "Everyone got bored so they called the shuttle".
But that's wrong - you're supposed to complete the station objective and then call the shuttle. That's what the station objective is there for.

No, the emergency shuttle is supposed to be for emergencies. You are supposed to complete the station onjective and then keep working.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:03 pm**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 2:37 am
do you have an example

One of my favorite examples was finding a Memorizer in maintenance and going around with it to show it to people, flashing myself, and then "dropping" it to see how they would react.

Another time I was the Acting Captain on a greenshift and I organized the crew into making four BSAs so we could fire them all simultaneously on Lavaland. We even got Xenobiology involved to make slime cells for the APC. Unfortunately we "accidentally" build all of them pointed at the brig.

Once we held a feast for a made up holiday. Once, we held an art competition to see who would replace the station's captain. Once, we had a station Baseball game on a custom build field by engineering catered by the bartender and chef. Once we found Pants Altar and started a cult around it.

Greenshifts are a perfect time to arrange funerals for people where normally the station would be too busy to do it otherwise. Or even better yet, hold a funeral for Pun Pun when some tider inevitably caves their head in due to boredom.

In a similar vein, sermons as the chaplain. Or even evolve to do rituals. People will be more open to doing weird occult stuff with you if they know you're not actually a heretic baiting them into a rune or something. Likewise, a scientist can perform some wacky human experimentation and people will be more comfortable rolling with it knowing they're not just gonna get locker shoved by some traitor.

If you're in engineering, try to renovate some department without asking for permission. If you're successful you can surprise people in a funny way, if not you give security something to do.

All you have to do is give people a nudge and more often than not they'll join in.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:15 pm**

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:03 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 2:37 am
do you have an example

Once we held a feast for a made up holiday. Once, we held an art competition to see who would replace the station's captain. Once, we had a station Baseball game on a custom build field by engineering catered by the bartender and chef. Once we found Pants Altar and started a cult around it.

Once during a greenshift I made the case of stealing every single desk bell in the station and put them on CPH grand hall. We then built the bell cult ding ding DING DING DING DING DING

I had a screenshot, it became just the messiest thing I've seen.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:27 pm**

I think greenshifts would be a lot more fun when you don't know it's a greenshift.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:54 pm**

greenshifts are okay I guess just a bit boring I feel

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 10:07 pm**

It just really depends on your role. Being AI or security on a greenshift is just a pure snoozefest.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:51 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:27 pm I think greenshifts would be a lot more fun when you don't know it's a greenshift.

Often they are if people get up to goofy shit that would otherwise be overshadowed by dynamic but thrive in an environment of paranoia and uncertainty that dynamic helps create.

People are more willing to fuck with each other and push boundaries when there's a question about whether or not you or the person on the other side might have a license to do it - we used to call it sextended, when Secret would roll Extended, and describe it with the saying "extended is the bloodiest gamemode." It often was.

Flipside of the coin, when a greenshift isn't a greenshift, people don't have a clear cue to code switch and act like it's a greenshift - if there's something that's supposed to make room for that can't coexist well with Dynamic (like self-gratifying megaprojects, some gimmicks, some events, bar RP.)

Another flipside is that a lot of the conflicts that arise from doubt over antag status result in a lot more hurt feelings - these are also the sorts of rounds people don't talk to each other after often because the conflict in the roumd might have been the product of too-real miscommunication, misperception, and miscalibrated response.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:41 am**

Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:27 pm I think greenshifts would be a lot more fun when you don't know it's a greenshift.

On one hand I think it should be up to command to reveal if it's a greenshift, on the other hand command would probably never reveal it's a greenshift because it feels like 90% of the time when it says it's a greenshift it actually means dynamic is going to take a constipated 60 threat shit at the midround roll

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:57 am**

dendydoom wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:46 am i like them and think they're an important part of balancing out rounds - sometimes you need a moment of respite to give context to the chaos.

we need a PR that starts playing subway surfers gameplay or family guy clips on half the screen if the threat is below 30.

Real. The adrenaline dump of a high-octane nukies/blob/nearly murdered by six axe-wielding atmos techs leads to a VERY high-stress feeling until I've settled solidly into the greenshift. The only downside to this, personally, is when two happen in a row and it goes from nice respite to "I'm falling asleep in my chair."

Subway Surfers would go a long way to keeping John Nanotrasen from beating my skull in for telling him to get out of my opioids cabinet.

MothNyan wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 3:46 am I love greenshifts, but I say this as someone who has no struggles in coming up with gimmicks or finding entertainment with the game's mechanics themselves, I really wish that there was more transparency when there's a low threat round - because as it stands right now no one's really sure if it's worth setting up a gimmick. Maybe it's a low threat round but a random blob spawn occurred and the crew wasn't prepared enough to deal with it? Or the shuttle is called early; invalidating all the progress you've made with no payoff.

But for ideas/examples of fun interactions for a greenshift based on job roles...

Security; facilitating rage cage matches where they make clear rules and guidelines for not gibbing/RR'ing someone, providing weaponry or staying to non-lethal methods.
Combat training camp, teaching people how to fight and defend for themselves.
Basketball, laser tag, boxing matches, etc.

Engineering; Large construction projects either on station or making a BYOs, making tubes for fast travel around the station
Setting up a new base in space and make teleporters so that people can visit and check it out
Supermatter tour guides, find willing people and teach them about how the supermatter is set up and how it works. (or atmos)

Science; Xenobio already takes a full hour for anything, but otherwise learning circuits and making neat gimmicks with those or getting genetics done and making the consoles available for anyone interested
make maxcaps and detonate them in lavaland or icemoon wastes, see if you can find a megafauna and test out bombs on them.
Prepare space exploring starter kits and find someone who's never spaced explored before and show them the ropes. (not just eva suits and the bare minimum, prepare meds and everything that would be helpful to ensure survival in space.) Can be pretty fun to put together explorer or survival packs imo.
Find people willing to sign up for being "experimented" on, and do silly shit with express permission. Ensure they get back to medbay if they're hurt.

Medical; Making chem factories, consoles and extra beds for patients, coffee and food for anyone getting out of cryo or malnourished SSD patients
Make metal death traps (that don't gib/RR), get people to sign silly forms that give consent to dying in silly ways, operate on your new patients
Hold health seminars on how to stay healthy and invite people to your formal presentation, make up batshit insane shit and watch peoples reactions

Supply; Decorate/renovate cargo, set up a cargo bar/coffee shop, play with exploration drones or the stock market
Order shaft miner conscription kits and recruit people to join you in megafauna hunting teams
Build a public bitrunning den for people to try it out

Service; Too many that this post would go on forever.

Assistants could also do a "phantom thief" gimmick if you're confident about sneaking around and not getting caught. Leave notes around for Security to find, declare your crimes before they happen and make Security run around and attempt to catch you and see how long you can last.
I also love seeing people set up "ghetto medbays", one shift I got someone to give me lightbulb eyes which I didn't realize makes you blind and I had a blast.

I don't mind the higher threat rounds sometimes, but it really burns me out if they're too often. Greenshifts are what I usually have the most meaningful experiences with, though I also understand it's not everyone's playstyle. I try to set up fun things to interact with when I can, and interact with others gimmicks when I can too.

These are a LOT of really fucking good ideas. I especially love the health/self-defense seminar ideas; I've personally tried to hold a surgical seminar for beginners because I know I sure as hell always needed help and had to teach myself, so I figured it'd get lots of good medbay engagement on a slow shift and let me do a few things I love!

It was not a slow shift.

All things in moderation, and I really feel like I oughta write my ideas down for different shift types

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:59 am**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:13 am
Drag wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:50 pm If you're not taking the opportunity to make an elaborate death trap on a greenshift what's the point of anything I guess
Theres been rulings about not building elaborate death traps as non-antagonists.

Welcome to the joke.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:36 am**

Drag wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:59 am
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 12:13 am
Drag wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:50 pm If you're not taking the opportunity to make an elaborate death trap on a greenshift what's the point of anything I guess
Theres been rulings about not building elaborate death traps as non-antagonists.
Welcome to the joke.

I didn't get it

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:43 am**

Higgin wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 11:51 pm Often they are if people get up to goofy shit that would otherwise be overshadowed by dynamic but thrive in an environment of paranoia and uncertainty that dynamic helps create.

People are more willing to fuck with each other and push boundaries when there's a question about whether or not you or the person on the other side might have a license to do it - we used to call it sextended, when Secret would roll Extended, and describe it with the saying "extended is the bloodiest gamemode." It often was.

Flipside of the coin, when a greenshift isn't a greenshift, people don't have a clear cue to code switch and act like it's a greenshift - if there's something that's supposed to make room for that can't coexist well with Dynamic (like self-gratifying megaprojects, some gimmicks, some events, bar RP.)

Another flipside is that a lot of the conflicts that arise from doubt over antag status result in a lot more hurt feelings - these are also the sorts of rounds people don't talk to each other after often because the conflict in the roumd might have been the product of too-real miscommunication, misperception, and miscalibrated response.

I feel like the spread should be something like this:

10% of shifts (give or take) should be green alerts. Of that 10%, there should be a 20% chance the game tells everyone it's a green shift. Otherwise, it tells them it's a different, random threat level. I feel like the inherent paranoia is one of the biggest things people come to SS13 for and that it should only be stripped away in rare cases.

We've also had a major issue with players effectively saying "gg go again" if the shift is green alert, and we need to do what we can to cut down on that kind of metagaming.

RedBaronFlyer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:41 am
Vekter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:27 pm I think greenshifts would be a lot more fun when you don't know it's a greenshift.
On one hand I think it should be up to command to reveal if it's a greenshift, on the other hand command would probably never reveal it's a greenshift because it feels like 90% of the time when it says it's a greenshift it actually means dynamic is going to take a constipated 60 threat shit at the midround roll

The problem I mentioned to Higgin about players trying to speedrun green shifts is why I don't think this is a good idea. People act like shifts without any threat are the worst, most boring thing in existence and just want to get through them as fast as possible. I honestly would prefer if the game just never told anyone it was a green shift over the way people have been reacting to it lately, but that's not how I think things should be.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:35 am**

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:43 am We've also had a major issue with players effectively saying "gg go again" if the shift is green alert, and we need to do what we can to cut down on that kind of metagaming.

They do it because they are bored. This is a symptom not the root issue.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:04 pm**

Vekter wrote: We've also had a major issue with players effectively saying "gg go again" if the shift is green alert, and we need to do what we can to cut down on that kind of metagaming.

Vekter wrote:The problem I mentioned to Higgin about players trying to speedrun green shifts is why I don't think this is a good idea. People act like shifts without any threat are the worst, most boring thing in existence and just want to get through them as fast as possible. I honestly would prefer if the game just never told anyone it was a green shift over the way people have been reacting to it lately, but that's not how I think things should be.

This makes a better argument to increase the visibility of greenshifts by having players be able to see it pre-roundstart so they can adjust their job roles accordingly (to avoid medical and security nothing to do greenshift scenarios) or just opt out of playing entirely. Alternatively if coders don't want to touch that a quick fix would be a policy stating that it's fine to suicide on greenshift as long as you don't take midround roles (not sure why these roll on greenshifts still) the same way we have with war ops.

Some people only play for combat and that's fine, but it's really agitating having to deal with the same people speedrunning rounds because they think their enjoyment of the game trumps all the other people actually interested in continuing the round. Just make it so they have zero excuse for this behaviour, and if they can't handle one greenshift every so and so rounds they can go outside and touch grass for that one and a half hour (probably less) round.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm**

TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:04 pm Some people only play for combat and that's fine

SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a combat simulator. This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle. Making green shifts more obvious is not going to fix the problem because it's just going to make the server population drop like 10% every time there is one. It's better if we make players think there's threat when there is none and they can suicide if they're bored.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I genuinely do not care about the opinion of anyone who only plays this game for the combat. Go play CM or TGMC.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:45 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a combat simulator. This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I genuinely do not care about the opinion of anyone who only plays this game for the combat. Go play CM or TGMC.

overall this is an odd hill to fight on. dnd is a roleplaying game but people almost always design combat for it. i think this is just a very disingenuous argument; i get the sentiment, and i agree that ss13 is not just a combat simulator. but i don’t agree that it’s just a roleplay simulator. people play dnd for different reasons, and the same is true for ss13- there’s a reason there’s so many different ss13 servers. and that’s ok. a more genuine wording would be “TG is a roleplay server,” which is only half true

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm Making green shifts more obvious is not going to fix the problem because it's just going to make the server population drop like 10% every time there is one. It's better if we make players think there's threat when there is none and they can suicide if they're bored.

… so is the entire purpose to obfuscate green shifts is to trick players into not leaving? is that kinda it? all this does is bleed the same amount of players just very slowly when people suicide after an hour of nothing happening. it just creates a worse shift. everybody is still in valid mode to stop heretics from ascending randomly, traitors from getting to their final objective, cultists getting out of hand, blobs taking over, and stealth ops from getting the disk. most people don’t take the time to do fun round gimmicks because there’s so much bullshit that can end rounds due to inaction. don’t you think it would be nice to be able to pursue round gimmicks without the threat of all of these possibilities of sudden round enders?

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:11 pm**

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:45 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a combat simulator. This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I genuinely do not care about the opinion of anyone who only plays this game for the combat. Go play CM or TGMC.
overall this is an odd hill to fight on. dnd is a roleplaying game but people almost always design combat for it. i think this is just a very disingenuous argument; i get the sentiment, and i agree that ss13 is not just a combat simulator. but i don’t agree that it’s just a roleplay simulator. people play dnd for different reasons, and the same is true for ss13- there’s a reason there’s so many different ss13 servers. and that’s ok. a more genuine wording
would be “TG is a roleplay server,” which is only half true

D&D is a little of both in a way, and SS13 can be both, but I don't know anyone who only plays D&D strictly for the combat and nothing else. Contrary to popular belief, there is such thing as "playing a game wrong" and while I don't think everyone should be forced to bar RP 24/7 or that we should be an HRP server, if you're literally only playing SS13 to make people horizontal, I don't care about your opinion on the game. My Fortnite metaphor wasn't saying that if people were playing Fortnite and just roleplaying that's a bad thing, it's saying that anyone doing that and expecting anyone either developing the game or making the rules to cater to them in any way is explicitly wrong.

Also, no, /tg/ is a roleplay server. That's not half-true, it's completely true. We enforce (or are supposed to enforce) RP expectations on even LRP servers.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:45 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm Making green shifts more obvious is not going to fix the problem because it's just going to make the server population drop like 10% every time there is one. It's better if we make players think there's threat when there is none and they can suicide if they're bored.
… so is the entire purpose to obfuscate green shifts is to trick players into not leaving? is that kinda it? all this does is bleed the same amount of players just very slowly when people suicide after an hour of nothing happening. it just creates a worse shift. everybody is still in valid mode to stop heretics from ascending randomly, traitors from getting to their final objective, cultists getting out of hand, blobs taking over, and stealth ops from getting the disk. most people don’t take the time to do fun round gimmicks because there’s so much bullshit that can end rounds due to inaction. don’t you think it would be nice to be able to pursue round gimmicks without the threat of all of these possibilities of sudden round enders?

I think this is a valid point, and why I think it'll be healthy if the game sometimes does tell people it's a green shift. It also honestly might just be better to have the game run very low threat instead of none at all.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:35 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:11 pm
iwishforducks wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:45 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a combat simulator. This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I genuinely do not care about the opinion of anyone who only plays this game for the combat. Go play CM or TGMC.
overall this is an odd hill to fight on. dnd is a roleplaying game but people almost always design combat for it. i think this is just a very disingenuous argument; i get the sentiment, and i agree that ss13 is not just a combat simulator. but i don’t agree that it’s just a roleplay simulator. people play dnd for different reasons, and the same is true for ss13- there’s a reason there’s so many different ss13 servers. and that’s ok. a more genuine wording
would be “TG is a roleplay server,” which is only half true
D&D is a little of both in a way, and SS13 can be both, but I don't know anyone who only plays D&D strictly for the combat and nothing else. Contrary to popular belief, there is such thing as "playing a game wrong" and while I don't think everyone should be forced to bar RP 24/7 or that we should be an HRP server, if you're literally only playing SS13 to make people horizontal, I don't care about your opinion on the game. My Fortnite metaphor wasn't saying that if people were playing Fortnite and just roleplaying that's a bad thing, it's saying that anyone doing that and expecting anyone either developing the game or making the rules to cater to them in any way is explicitly wrong.

Also, no, /tg/ is a roleplay server. That's not half-true, it's completely true. We enforce (or are supposed to enforce) RP expectations on even LRP servers.

fair enough

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:47 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:04 pm Some people only play for combat and that's fine
SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a combat simulator. This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle. Making green shifts more obvious is not going to fix the problem because it's just going to make the server population drop like 10% every time there is one. It's better if we make players think there's threat when there is none and they can suicide if they're bored.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I genuinely do not care about the opinion of anyone who only plays this game for the combat. Go play CM or TGMC.

I would say ss13 is more about roleplaying a day at work going horribly wrong rather than just a roleplaying game like fiveM or darkrp, because entire departments (specifically security and medical) just cannot function if everyone is actually on the same page in terms of furthering the goals of nanotrasen. Job content can only get you so far unless you have the foresight to roll sci or engineering, and having nothing (no antags / admins) to advance the round can suck

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:59 pm**

TheLoLSwat wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 5:47 pm
Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:04 pm Some people only play for combat and that's fine
SS13 is a roleplaying game, not a combat simulator. This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle. Making green shifts more obvious is not going to fix the problem because it's just going to make the server population drop like 10% every time there is one. It's better if we make players think there's threat when there is none and they can suicide if they're bored.

This is gonna sound harsh, but I genuinely do not care about the opinion of anyone who only plays this game for the combat. Go play CM or TGMC.
I would say ss13 is more about roleplaying a day at work going horribly wrong rather than just a roleplaying game like fiveM or darkrp, because entire departments (specifically security and medical) just cannot function if everyone is actually on the same page in terms of furthering the goals of nanotrasen. Job content can only get you so far unless you have the foresight to roll sci or engineering, and having nothing (no antags / admins) to advance the round can suck

You're not wrong, but just like how you need some sorrow to make the joy in life matter, I feel like having shifts where things are really quiet and you're not sure if things are going to go tits up or not are important to balance out the ones where all hell breaks loose 45 minutes in. If every shift was just different shades of weird shit happening, there wouldn't be anything making them special.

And yeah, I don't think SS13 is comparable to things like DarkRP, but there's a large difference between "I need to talk to this person in R&D to get the stuff I need for my job" and "I'm not having fun if I'm not laying out everyone I can per the rules".

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:10 pm**

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm
TypicalRig wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 1:04 pm Some people only play for combat and that's fine
This would be like saying it's fine for people to spend all their time in Fortnite roleplaying and then getting mad when the devs don't cater to that playstyle.

As someone on team "let greenshift fuck" and "stop players from speedrunning rounds because of low threat" this is a poor comparison because in this scenario I'd be the Fortnite PVPer complaining about how to have the game work slightly better (but not cater since it only enables them to opt out for specific rounds) for RPers if we're going off your analogy. Only... I'm team RP in this TG argument? I can't find a less confusing response to this because it's a really weird comparsion imo.

Vekter wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:16 pm Making green shifts more obvious is not going to fix the problem because it's just going to make the server population drop like 10% every time there is one. It's better if we make players think there's threat when there is none and they can suicide if they're bored.

I don't like the idea of needing to maintain server pop by outright tricking players about the contents of a round, nor does your solution fix the speedrun round issue. It also doesn't fix how players will only do gimmicks when they are aware of it being greenshift since they know they have the time to safely do a lot of work that won't be for nothing.

I'd rather people who are more likely to make up any excuse to end the round over non-existent/easily fixable problems just not play during a greenshift. The current meta on Terry/Sybil is when threat is low and you want to reroll the antags is to either 1) Believe any form of misinformation about the status of the station without bothering to verify it so you can justify a shuttle call due to "I didn't know any better!" or 2) Refuse to fix an easily solvable problem and exaggerate the seriousness of it to justify a shuttle call. (Think like, the SMES not being on, or that one tile hull breach that everyone is ignoring, etc. Stubbed toe calls.) If we want low threat rounds to fuck, we need stricter enforcement on bored calls, and not just smites/ingame warnings, which is what usually ends up happening only if the reasons are especially stupid.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:20 pm**

playing antagonist is usually more fun than non antagonist, and it’s because you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to be an active participant in the main conflict of the round. You have the opertunity for the best combat, you have the opertunity for the best roleplay, and you get to be an important character in the outcome.

If you roll something like chef as a non antag, you have to derive all of your fun out of the cooking minigame, the hope that someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting, or the hope that an antagonist is going to interact with you. These all together, do tend create meaningful stories for the chef player.

If its a greenshift however, suddenly no antagonists are going to interact with you, and no one will have anything interesting to say to you, so you are pretty much left with a cooking minigame and an Italian accent.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:43 pm**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:20 pm
If you roll something like chef as a non antag, you have to derive all of your fun out of the cooking minigame, the hope that someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting, or the hope that an antagonist is going to interact with you.

You know you, yourself, are able to go out and interact with other people, right?
You are not limited to waiting for more "relevant" players to come up to talk to you like an NPC.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:58 pm**

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:43 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:20 pm
If you roll something like chef as a non antag, you have to derive all of your fun out of the cooking minigame, the hope that someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting, or the hope that an antagonist is going to interact with you.

You know you, yourself, are able to go out and interact with other people, right?
You are not limited to waiting for more "relevant" players to come up to talk to you like an NPC.

This is my whole point. Talk about what? Fluctuations in the galactic space market? I want to talk about how there are murderous backstabbers that could end us at any moment and not space weather.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:04 pm**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:58 pm
This is my whole point. Talk about what? Fluctuations in the galactic space market? I want to talk about how there are murderous backstabbers that could end us at any moment and not space weather.

The same thing that

someone is willing to talk to you about something interesting

is talking to you about

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:23 pm**

I don't understand what you are saying
I'm not asking, "Hrm, should I talk to someone about interesting things or not interesting things?" I'm saying there isn't all that much interesting to talk about on a space station where nothing goes wrong.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:36 pm**

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 7:23 pm I don't understand what you are saying

All I'm getting at in this thread is twofold:

1. You think greenshifts are boring because no one is interacting with you. So rather than wait for the interaction to come to you, go out and find the interaction yourself
2. There are plenty of ideas for things to go out and prod other people with, that's half of the sandbox of this game

/tg/Station 13

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