/tg/Station 13

Good roleplay is all about creating a dramatic and believable character with internal consistency, and thereby enhancing the story and setting that takes place throughout the game.

Characters are allowed to know about all in game mechanics and antagonists as per rule two. This rule leads to some odd scenarios when we consider mechanics that players commonly utilize within the game, but no real "in character" reason to know how or why.

Consider, for example, the chemical lexorin. Its a potent toxin strong enough to crit in a single syringe worth, but for the sake of balance, it can be countered by Epinephrine, which everyone starts with an auto-injector of. Any sufficiently robust individual can recognize when they have been shot full of a lexorin syringe, and are able to epi themselves long before they risk falling into crit. Now it would make sense that trained doctors and chemist would perhaps be able to identify a they poison were shot full of and inject the antidote, but it doesn't really make sense for every janitor, security officer, and assistant to be as wise. There isn't any label on the pen that indicates it is useful against poison of any sort, and none of the mechanics of how Epinephrine work relate to poison at all. This means that the character, for no reason other than the fact that their player knows that it is a mechanic in the game, will inject themselves with an epi-pen to save them from the lexorin. There is no mechanical reason they cannot, why would we expect any different?

We could imagine a world without the rule two clause, in which only chemists and medical doctors would be able to identify the appropriate chemical antidote, and we forbid anyone else from intentionally countering lexorin with an epi-pen. But this defeats the entire purpose of the mechanic in the first place, which is intended to make lexorin less deadly. Thus, the mechanic depends on a flaw of rule 2 to even function.

And this is not just chemicals that we could look at through this lenses. There are many mechanics that depend upon meta knowledge to even function. Reasonable ignorance is not only not required, its expected you forgo it. Nuke op death explosions, heretic rifts, cult and wizard magic, traitor items, midround traitors, changeling revival, revolutionary conversion and deconversion, zombie tumors and chest burster embryos. These are all things you are expected to know about by coders and your fellow players alike, despite the fact that it doesn't really make much sense for us to do so. The solution is not obvious.

This is even more of a problem in more freeform style roleplay since you don't even need the player skill to counter threats
(For a strawman example, see: "Nuh-uh I have an Anti-Death shield" type roleplay)

i proposed writing a 'nanotrasen survival guide' for MRP detailing what should be reasonably known IC'ly by crew aboard the station so as to steer people off of being walking encyclopedias of every single antagonist mechanic.

I think most people understand that "Oh bad thing happening to you? Inject this thing labled 'for emergencies.'

zergking wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:27 am I think most people understand that "Oh bad thing happening to you? Inject this thing labled 'for emergencies.'

No. The epinephrine does nothing for you in 99% of bad things that happen to you, and it is not labeled 'for emergencies.'

This post represents a pretty severe lack of understanding about the overall roleplay scenario. The crew did not spawn into existence then and there, most of them have worked for NT for years already, and although the shifts we get which are full of drama would be considered rare and unusual, it definitely is not the first time that NT and the Syndicate have fought. Knowing about explosive implants in particular, actually, it should be more common than it currently is. Same thing for most of the other issues brought up. I'm sure 2 years ago some guy on Space Station 7 got poisoned with Lexorin and then everyone talked about it. Bob the sales manager at one of NTs storefronts was probably a heretic who sacrificed two of his underlings before he was caught. Etc.

The fact that people know about mechanics is fine, even in character.

these things are just "facts of life" on space station 13. If you get shot with a syringe and you are taking damage but its not brute or burn (since you wouldnt feel it in any specific regions of your body), you could reasonably assume that is something an epi pen would atleast help with, and you dont lose out by using it on yourself on the way to medbay.

Information on the syndicate and monsters such as changelings isnt supposed to be private, and again it can be reasonably assumed that everything that happens has happened before and Nanotrasen has atleast some notes down on the best course of action in case it happens again

i actually think the way we disseminate specialist knowledge is a strength of the game, not a weakness. it's a roleplaying game about learning to work and survive in an environment that looks normal at first glance, but is actually hiding layers of complexity and danger that you will need awareness and understanding of to navigate properly. the gameplay matches up to the setting in this sense. there are "standard operating procedures" that most people know, but there are also little tricks and shortcuts that only veterans of the gig can show you, and you then go and pass that knowledge on to the next lot of greenhorns. it's very cool.

in my opinion, policing metaknowledge is a minefield that results in questionable improvements to gameplay. asking people to pretend not to know something can only be caught insofar as it is detectable, and it's quite easy to navigate to the same conclusion and make it look like chance because you're pretending you don't know mechanics. this is the sort of thing that requires a lot of trust between players, and it's something i find more at home in a tabletop game between friends, rather than being applied to a legion of anonymous internet users dropping in and out of rounds on a whim.

while striving to protect RP, imo it actually has an inverse effect because it pulls the player out of an IC headspace and asks them to pick and choose which metaknowledge applies. this, to me at least, suggests that situations actually become more contrived as players involved have to consciously "choose" which knowledge to apply rather than just naturally reacting to what's happening as their character. it seems much easier from an administrative angle and more user-friendly from a player angle to police behaviours rather than knowledge in that case, as it allows things to progress naturally without constantly pushing players into making OOC decisions about their IC input.

sounds like a skill issue

TheBibleMelts wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:15 am i proposed writing a 'nanotrasen survival guide' for MRP detailing what should be reasonably known IC'ly by crew aboard the station so as to steer people off of being walking encyclopedias of every single antagonist mechanic.

what's the good reason not to be? does this just not apply to antagonists, or does it only operate around crew towards antagonists?

It might help sell the depth of a world to show up and not know shit and have other people not knowing shit. Genuine newness and wonder is cool.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to be asked to play dumb as a rule, though, when you've moved beyond novelty to mastery. Antagonists cannot be allowed to play for mastery while everyone else has to hobble themselves for 'novelty' which is not.

The purpose of any restriction in this area is already served by 'stay in your lane' - giving newer players and players who pick a role at least some chance to enjoy and develop in that role up front, even if the mechanics don't limit anyone else from doing it. That's sporting. That is a prosocial way of deepening the 'roleplaying' of the role you pick on join. That's also in roles' cooperative functions - not in competition between players.

Introducing any metaknowledge requirements that influence competition - in effect asking people to hold their arms behind their backs in very predictable and prescribed ways (because otherwise where do you draw the line?) is a terrible idea, creates terrible feelings, and is ripe for exploitation.

As long as a rust heretic is a rust heretic, we shouldn't blame people calling them a rust heretic.

needed to elaborate on what i mean by “sounds like a skill issue”

if you take issue with assistants knowing what lexorin is because of Roleplay!!! Assistants Arent Medical Doctores!!! then it simply is a skill issue. man just spoon feed the assistant a bullshit story by asking a loaded question like “did your grandma die of lexorin” and just hope they take the bait. and if they dont then who cares. move on. find a better opportunity.

the issue here is that you have dreamt up this scenario of what the world should be and then project it upon everyone, when in reality this is a game played by like 50+ human beings at one time. and guess what? every one of these people have completely different perspectives on the world they’re playing in. get over yourself. have fun.

footnote: to many folks learning mechanics is a big draw of ss13. i know it was for me when i started playing. it is simply pretentious and anti-fun to nerd emoji “you wouldnt understand how to do surgery!!!!”. nuf said. if the issue is mr robusto then admins need to start hardcore trolling and give them Resident Evil Camera or smite them with whatever the immersion smite was called. [enforcing rules on mechanical knowledge] is not the solution.

i like that the cluelessness is genuine in new players. it is wonderful to see every single time.

knowledge and experience are also very different teachers. you can peruse the wiki for days before you actually play your first round, and it's arguable how much it will actually prepare you beyond a certain point.

i really do like how "real" this aspect of the game is. it really is like being the fresh faced new hire and showing up to work on the first day terrified. except the workplace has a high chance of murdering you. and is in space.

As someone who has had to police meta knowledge on another server don't do it guys it's really annoying.

People learn things as the round goes on and tracking where/when/if they learned validly when there's an ahelp genuienly is sould crushing

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:46 am This post represents a pretty severe lack of understanding about the overall roleplay scenario. The crew did not spawn into existence then and there, most of them have worked for NT for years already, and although the shifts we get which are full of drama would be considered rare and unusual, it definitely is not the first time that NT and the Syndicate have fought. Knowing about explosive implants in particular, actually, it should be more common than it currently is. Same thing for most of the other issues brought up. I'm sure 2 years ago some guy on Space Station 7 got poisoned with Lexorin and then everyone talked about it. Bob the sales manager at one of NTs storefronts was probably a heretic who sacrificed two of his underlings before he was caught. Etc.

The fact that people know about mechanics is fine, even in character.

The problem is not people knowing about mechanics. The problem is the mechanics.

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 7:18 am the issue here is that you have dreamt up this scenario of what the world should be and then project it upon everyone, when in reality this is a game played by like 50+ human beings at one time. and guess what? every one of these people have completely different perspectives on the world they’re playing in. get over yourself. have fun.

I'm gonna lose my fucking mind and I'm not sure if i'm gonna find it this time.

just like every other mechanic in the game, the reason i know about epinephrine's uses etc is because at one point i was either told to use it, saw someone else use it, or got killed by something and learned that it would've helped me out. i think this real method of disseminating information about the game is more valuable to a user's individual experience about how they perceive and come to understand the world than using purely OOC means to police it in order to try and enforce the illusion of IC ignorance, because ultimately it draws players out of the IC world more and doesn't actually fix anything. it is just another hoop to jump through that will catch players out.

i'm a little lost on how to be productive in the ongoing conversation of this thread. i think that putting more IC hints about how to use items is actually quite a neat idea, so i would be all for putting "USE IN CASE OF EVIL POISON" on epipens if that's what you mean.

beyond that there comes a time where the novelty of this game will wear off and it will be the user's individual responsibility to engage with it in a productive way that allows them to continue enjoying it. the little frustrations will build up and there'll be nothing shiny and new to offset the discomfort. you must be pro-active in this regard. this goes for things like the "internal consistency" mentioned in the OP. no one will enforce that other than the player themselves, and i've seen plenty of people impose rules on themselves about what their characters do (even i do it) and it's very fun and rewarding.

if, at the root of it all, you aren't actually enjoying the game, these little tweaks and fixes will not resolve that. you have to ask yourself why you fell in love with this game in the first place and try to reconnect with those feelings.

I definitely enjoy a lot of the learn by experience aspects of this game, and building that into the "soft canon" of your character as one of my friends called it. Did my grandma die of Lexorin? Of COURSE not, that's insane.

But my coworker bit a syringe and when his lungs started collapsing, he unshouldered his backpack and passed it to me, gasping through blue lips, to hit him with the pen.

That's a much better story than "ohnoes!!! I have noooOOOOoooOOOOo idea what's happening here,,, dis antag must be vewwy scawwy >m<" (five minutes on the wiki and an RR for you)

I think even without the policing metaknowledge angle being hellish, all of us build our own experiences and have stories for half of every little tip we've learned. I think that's far more worthwhile than pretending I don't know what a Changeling is when they pop armblade and murderbone me.

Make Campbell an HRP server and apply this

This example in specific sounds like it can be fixed with a poster or just a warning label on the epinephrine pen

iwishforducks wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 7:18 am the issue here is that you have dreamt up this scenario of what the world should be and then project it upon everyone, when in reality this is a game played by like 50+ human beings at one time. and guess what? every one of these people have completely different perspectives on the world they’re playing in. get over yourself. have fun.

I wouldn't be so hasty to fingerwag at someone accusing them of projecting upon people, but I'll add to this a bit and say that these are 50+ people that have a severe issue with agreeing with each other. Proposing a change of paradigm is healthy, and when doing so the carrot is mightier than the stick

In this instance however I agree with Keith, one of the biggest ballsaches of D&D is having to pretend that you don't know a vampire is immune to silver or that white dragons have intelligence 10, play dumb and make mistakes on purpose as the opposite would be "not in character".

Thats not even a roleplay issue thats people constantly power creeping the epi pen and making it a cure all for alot of different things, now it helps with bloodloss.


The item is clearly designed to be a one use "keep me in the round a bit longer" against a lot of things. This is the worst thing to complain about since its design intent is a safety net for people who just want to stay in game and interact with others, yes it has niche interactions but those interactions are placed in there specifically because people want the pen to be a safety net.

So its a stretch to assume that someone without medical knowledge knowing to use a pen as soon as they suddenly struggle to breath is meta knowledge, the pen is supposed to be the first thing you inject yourself with as soon as you believe something is wrong and you are going to die.

wouldn't have a epi pen in your box if it was meant for somoene else

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:42 am

zergking wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:27 am I think most people understand that "Oh bad thing happening to you? Inject this thing labled 'for emergencies.'

No. The epinephrine does nothing for you in 99% of bad things that happen to you, and it is not labeled 'for emergencies.'

It's literally put in a box, that everyone gets, called "Emergency Survival Box" which contains it, an air mask, and a smol oxygen tank...

the codebase is NRP and we should get rid of it
in an ideal world you can only ping the server and that's it
you can then turn your pc off and roleplay in real life
i've gotten so good at it that people think i'm

Knowing when to play dumb to let the situation cook is a true sign of high experience but it can't be forced: people have to learn that it's the stylish pro move on their own.

RaveRadbury wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:35 am Knowing when to play dumb to let the situation cook is a true sign of high experience but it can't be forced: people have to learn that it's the stylish pro move on their own.

Joining a local improv theater was one of the best decisions of my life for reasons like this.

Forcing people to pretend to be stupid is the worst and if you want to enforce the "everyone shouldn't KNOW everything" idea then add mechanical limits to it, like how bay has skill levels (which we will never do because it would make changing jobs a bitch and a half and pointless).

Basically there's no good solution without radically changing how tg works so I dunno what to tell ya man.

Yulice wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:14 pm Forcing people to pretend to be stupid is the worst and if you want to enforce the "everyone shouldn't KNOW everything" idea then add mechanical limits to it, like how bay has skill levels (which we will never do because it would make changing jobs a bitch and a half and pointless).

Basically there's no good solution without radically changing how tg works so I dunno what to tell ya man.

I always find it funny when people feel forced about these things with the context though 90% of the time.

This is what happens when people don't detach themselves from their character and play an actual character, in a game where doing so is encouraged instead of just being an extension of themselves.

No one here is going to force them to do anything outside of that regard though, that just isn't where TG is.

No one can play a role to its greatest capacity while choosing know everything in said role, but they can make the CHOICE to better play that role if they so CHOOSE. When the character isn't the actual player, what the fuck does it actually matter to begin with though?

People that actually get mad and flounder about this stuff are really good at preaching to the world about their absolute lack of experience actually doing it and just how self inserted they are in a game about playing a character that isn't themselves, and its the sort of thing that really makes me start to eye if they are just being 'a person playing a game' instead of playing an actual character. I'd rather see them put that energy into being more interesting in-game smh.

RaveRadbury wrote: ↑Wed Jan 03, 2024 4:35 am Knowing when to play dumb to let the situation cook is a true sign of high experience but it can't be forced: people have to learn that it's the stylish pro move on their own.

I think I have one case off the top of my head where I pretended to not know what the progtot kidnapping thing was whe this dude promised me an all expenses paid vacation to Brazil. I went for it 'cos I rightfully thought it'd be funny, but that's not the point easy is making I think.

That move was in direct opposition to the competitive factor of the cat-and-mouse mechanic, as I was empowering an antagonist. It's obviously not against the rules since it's some fun RP (I can't think of an admin that would action me willingly getting kidnapped with the present nuance), but someone might take offense to the fact I just helped an antagonist.

Personally, I agree with misdoubtful. Bollocks to the mechanics, the point of the game isn't to win. It is well understood GT doesn't matter (it's flair, fluff, an achievie, it does nothing to advance your imaginary SS13 battlepass since it doesn't exist), and the Dwarf Fortress "Losing is Fun" culture is so etched into the server that it's part of the goddamn rules.

I don't think we'll ever be forced to play dumb. That sounds horrific. But purposefully playing dumb can be fun if you're the kind of person that enjoys seeing a situation unravelling and is not afraid of "losing".

I suppose what I am trying to say concisely, is that coder's balancing things by adding knowledge checks, and specifically knowledge checks that often don't make sense for the in game character to understand, is bad for the verisimilitude of the game.
The only way to avoid this as a player is to forgo that knowledge, and thus throw off the balance of the mechanic.

This is at least true in my lexorin example.

If I am shot with lexorin roleplaying as some clueless janitor I can either:
a) Correctly play my character as not knowing the link between epinephrine and lexorin, and die screaming for my life.
b) Suck it up and epi myself.

In case a, lexorin has suddenly become a much more powerful toxin than it was prior, as it is relatively easy to make and can crit someone in a single syringe and lacks the balancing factor of the epi pen.
In case b, I have broken character, mostly to myself and to the antagonist attacking me.

The balancing factor in this case depends upon meta knowledge, which means that when it is evoked, it will either be unbalanced or break verisimilitude.

This conversation was never supposed to be about changing rule 2, its a critique of the mechanic.

conrad wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:26 pm Personally, I agree with misdoubtful. Bollocks to the mechanics, the point of the game isn't to win. It is well understood GT doesn't matter (it's flair, fluff, an achievie, it does nothing to advance your imaginary SS13 battlepass since it doesn't exist), and the Dwarf Fortress "Losing is Fun" culture is so etched into the server that it's part of the goddamn rules.

I don't think we'll ever be forced to play dumb. That sounds horrific. But purposefully playing dumb can be fun if you're the kind of person that enjoys seeing a situation unravelling and is not afraid of "losing".

I really, really, like this but I think it's more how things should be than how they actually are. You've described a great ideal and I wish things were like this. We should try and do our best to help others understand that this is a long-lasting and great way to experience and enjoy the game.

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 11:10 pm If I am shot with lexorin roleplaying as some clueless janitor I can either:
a) Correctly play my character as not knowing the link between epinephrine and lexorin, and die screaming for my life.
b) Suck it up and epi myself

It's not too far-fetched to have your character assume "epinephrine helps people not die so I should inject it since I can't breathe"

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 8:09 pm

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 11:10 pm If I am shot with lexorin roleplaying as some clueless janitor I can either:
a) Correctly play my character as not knowing the link between epinephrine and lexorin, and die screaming for my life.
b) Suck it up and epi myself

It's not too far-fetched to have your character assume "epinephrine helps people not die so I should inject it since I can't breathe"

That's a leap in logic and even if it wasn't, you are still trying to retroactively justify your character's actions for the sake of balance as opposed to making the in character decision.

And that's entirely besides the point that and epinephrin does jack shit against every other toxin in the game, so if you are going to use this excuse would your character then not also pump a epi every time they encounter any poison at all? No, because your decision making was made entirely from an occ perspective, which you must then try to justify iccly.

I still don't know what exactly the epipen does but it seems to be always helpful for any sort of medical trouble. It can get a critted person back on their feet for a while. Apparently it slows down bleeding. I heard it helps with spider venom too. I also use it on corpses sometimes, it slows down their organ decay... Or at least I think it does? Low health? pop an epipen, it probably heals you. Feeling sick? Try an epipen! Is there anything that an epipen can't help with? What if it does nothing and it's just a placebo?

None of this really bothers me. I guess I assume that Nanotrasen is providing everyone with a base amount of general training.

Start aggressively bwoinking people who "SSD for a bit while I pick up food" first; it's incredibly common and I really do hate it.

(I also really like the headcanon that the whole station is a social experiment, it makes a lot of sense and effectively handwaves away a lot of the other oddities in the setting)

Epinephrine is the medicine you use when you can't breathe.

Lexorin is the poison that makes you unable to breathe.

Seems obvious.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 10:15 pm Epinephrine is the medicine you use when you can't breathe.

Lexorin is the poison that makes you unable to breathe.

Seems obvious.

Literally took the words out of my mouth.

Epinephrine does not heal oxygen damage outside of crit or clear losebreath.

PapaMichael wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 10:02 pm (I also really like the headcanon that the whole station is a social experiment, it makes a lot of sense and effectively handwaves away a lot of the other oddities in the setting)

seconded, though I've always been partial that the stations are insurance/tax fraud writeoffs too, though, and that some of the goofier mapping choices are a result of nepobaby architects getting a hand-out

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:52 pm Epinephrine does not heal oxygen damage outside of crit or clear losebreath.

It does though. It heals oxygen damage whilst in critical condition and also clears losebreath (even outside of critical condition). It also removes damage from being in critical condition.

Even in real life, epinephrine helps in improving breathing if your airways are normally obstructed. That's what an epipen does.

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:33 pm you are still trying to retroactively justify your character's actions for the sake of balance as opposed to making the in character decision.

I'm not retroactively justifying anything, I'm just approaching it the same what you may be approaching it as a clueless janitor.
But it doesn't matter, because no one thinks this way.
Do you think it will make for a better story if you died to the Lexorin? If so, die to the Lexorin. If not, use the epi.
You don't have to think "does my character know about the epi" until someone asks you IC why you use an epi.

Is there an IC explanation for putting boxes in a bag giving more storage space for small items compared to just the empty bag? How would someone know to do this?

feaster wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 4:57 am Is there an IC explanation for putting boxes in a bag giving more storage space for small items compared to just the empty bag? How would someone know to do this?

It keeps them organized.

Critawakets wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 3:21 am

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:52 pm Epinephrine does not heal oxygen damage outside of crit or clear losebreath.

It does though. It heals oxygen damage whilst in critical condition and also clears losebreath (even outside of critical condition). It also removes damage from being in critical condition.

Even in real life, epinephrine helps in improving breathing if your airways are normally obstructed. That's what an epipen does.

Yeah it does clear losebreath

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 4:15 am

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2024 9:33 pm you are still trying to retroactively justify your character's actions for the sake of balance as opposed to making the in character decision.

I'm not retroactively justifying anything, I'm just approaching it the same what you may be approaching it as a clueless janitor.
But it doesn't matter, because no one thinks this way.
Do you think it will make for a better story if you died to the Lexorin? If so, die to the Lexorin. If not, use the epi.
You don't have to think "does my character know about the epi" until someone asks you IC why you use an epi.

Maybe i'm just fucked up then melbert.

sometimes if i know how to resolve something but i'm not medical and i think it'll be funny i just walk into the medbay lobby all like "i don't feel so good..." and then keel over dead. i know they're going to be able to fix me, and it usually makes people laugh.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:34 pm sometimes if i know how to resolve something but i'm not medical and i think it'll be funny i just walk into the medbay lobby all like "i don't feel so good..." and then keel over dead. i know they're going to be able to fix me, and it usually makes people laugh.

I've had some fantastic moments playing with Blood Deficiency, a fight's over and my team (Sec) were victorious.

And I just stare directly at someone and say "I believe I am about to pass out."

and then immediately hit the OxyLoss KO threshold.

Never fails to make me laugh.

Itseasytosee2me wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 10:33 pm Maybe i'm just fucked up then melbert.

I don't think you're fucked up! It's not an easy mindset to get into. I apologize if I've come off as negative or haranguing.