/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

1) Literally do nothing except report crime early in the shift

2) Sec repeatedly and wordlessly stuns me as I stand still in maint

3) I bitch about it on radio and someone drags me away

4) Another officer chases me down and stuns me again, I shout "SEC HAS TURNED ON THE CREW! FIGHT BACK!"

5) Sec harmbatons me all the way to perma and then tosses me in a sealed cell

6) Get told its valid because I tried to incite a riot

At this point why even have a brig? Just give every officer a box full of lethal injection because they can apparently sprint around maint shooting anyone they like without saying anything and then kill me if they point out that I'm acting more like an antag than the actual fucking antags that round (this was actually true). No wonder posing as security as a ling is GODMODE - I dont' blame 99% of our players for not wanting to even touch a sec officer, even one with an armblade, when even sneezing in their direction is now grounds for taking you out of the round.

How about we start enforcing Rule 1 on Officers again? Or better yet can we get rid of "random arrests" under code blue. Someone slipped in the word change in a PR from "Probable" to "Random" searches under Code Blue and that timing has basically coincided with all of my worst encounters with security when security has the greenlight to fuck with a good 25% of your round for absolutely no reason, it leads to this sort of shitty policy where sec can take a big shit on your round for absolutely no reason but also take a nice permanent shit on your round if you so much as look at them funny.

security is usually wrong, but if you ahelp it's easily solved

CPTANT wrote:

Sligneris wrote:Sure. Once you actually tell us what security does wrong.

There is literally two examples of security I encountered when security was wrong - one when an officer dedicated an entire round to picking a fight with initially cooperative crewmembers, because "the law is the law" and I ended up having to space them, for which I ate a day ban. Another was when I had to gulag one officer and kill another, because one would go ahead and protect a criminal who'd break into my office twice and attack me, and another would attack me for attempting to demote the other (after already being the one to release the criminal the first time).

Still, these aren't examples of officers starting shit - they're examples of officers being incompetent and bullheaded.

Yet that's not the kind of thing Robustin is talking about. What he is talking about is "wtf, why is security doing anything to me while I griff". So it's hard to take anything seriously from him, especially with assistant griefing being much more prevalent than security incompetence. You're very unlikely to get in trouble with security as a regular medical doctor or bartender doing your job. But security will surely "start shit" with you when you break into the brig and incite a riot within the first 5 minutes of the round.

This is just more "security is never wrong"

There are plenty of instances where I got tazed for whatever reason, ranging from sec just going around mass implanting everyone to "hurr durr, assistants shouldn't have insulated gloves" to "lolz I am not even a security officer in the first place, I am a cultist trying to sacrifice you".

But that behaviour isn't a problem, the PROBLEM is unequal escalation rules.

Literally said sec is wrong on multiple personal occasions, you should read posts before replying to them my dude

Currently the few things security has issues with:

1. Excessive response to minor infractions - and no, I do not mean griffing assistants like Robustin, these deserve every harmbaton they get. I mean stuff like being in possession of insulated gloves, or well, sunglasses. Same with trespassing into secure, but harmless places like EVA or teleporter. More often than not, people involved with stuff like that simply want to get the tools needed to do whatever autism quest they're on, be it space exploration or building something in construction area. Stopping them seems to be simply spiteful. Which brings me to another point.

2. Looting prisoners. Every time I hear that I should "wait out my sentence", this bugs me. Waiting my sentence out isn't a problem for me, but it's pretty common for officers to steal ("confiscate") my equipment and refuse to return it - forcing me to waste time and gear up again.

People who leave prisoners shit all over the place frustrate me, if its used in a crime its as good as mine however. On the topic of insulated gloves its not cool to take them unless t hey were used, Ive ahelped it before and admins told me yeah don't take them unless they are directly involved

Sligneris wrote:Currently the few things security has issues with:

1. Excessive response to minor infractions - and no, I do not mean griffing assistants like Robustin, these deserve every harmbaton they get. I mean stuff like being in possession of insulated gloves, or well, sunglasses. Same with trespassing into secure, but harmless places like EVA or teleporter. More often than not, people involved with stuff like that simply want to get the tools needed to do whatever autism quest they're on, be it space exploration or building something in construction area. Stopping them seems to be simply spiteful. Which brings me to another point.

2. Looting prisoners. Every time I hear that I should "wait out my sentence", this bugs me. Waiting my sentence out isn't a problem for me, but it's pretty common for officers to steal ("confiscate") my equipment and refuse to return it - forcing me to waste time and gear up again.

1. is a problem - I don't like space law because I think it's a bit stupid to have shit like "being naked" as a crime

we don't have an environment where it's actually relevant, so it's always frustrating to see people get brigged for basically nothing -it doesn't happen ALL the time but it's something I personally find distasteful

Qbopper wrote:

Sligneris wrote:Currently the few things security has issues with:

1. Excessive response to minor infractions - and no, I do not mean griffing assistants like Robustin, these deserve every harmbaton they get. I mean stuff like being in possession of insulated gloves, or well, sunglasses. Same with trespassing into secure, but harmless places like EVA or teleporter. More often than not, people involved with stuff like that simply want to get the tools needed to do whatever autism quest they're on, be it space exploration or building something in construction area. Stopping them seems to be simply spiteful. Which brings me to another point.

2. Looting prisoners. Every time I hear that I should "wait out my sentence", this bugs me. Waiting my sentence out isn't a problem for me, but it's pretty common for officers to steal ("confiscate") my equipment and refuse to return it - forcing me to waste time and gear up again.

1. is a problem - I don't like space law because I think it's a bit stupid to have shit like "being naked" as a crime

we don't have an environment where it's actually relevant, so it's always frustrating to see people get brigged for basically nothing -it doesn't happen ALL the time but it's something I personally find distasteful

Often sentences are way harsher than space law though. Being perma'd if you stun an officer while trying to get away is almost a given.

There's a reason being naked is a crime. It's annoying and inconveniences security. One person being naked can quickly become a group of people being naked, attacking the brig.
And, Space Law sentence times are jokes. That's why it's a guideline. And not THE LAW.

One person being naked can quickly become a group of people being naked, attacking the brig.

lmao

I agree with the "it's annoying" part, but...

ohnopigeons wrote:

Kor wrote:

One person being naked can quickly become a group of people being naked, attacking the brig.

lmao

one naked man just walking down the street would cause a lot of trouble for all involved

Just apply baton to head until they get clothes, it is usually lizards who do this so it is always valid!

One person being naked can quickly become a group of people being naked, attacking the brig.

Nevermind ausops already quoted it don't click the video it's already spoiled

TheColdTurtle wrote:Just apply baton to head until they get clothes, it is usually lizards who do this so it is always valid!

this, I just beat the shit out of lizards who do it and tell them it'll be worse the next time I see their disgusting naked lizard body

What about a person wearing a gas mask, it could quickly become a group of people wearing gas masks, attacking the brig.

Or a lizard wagging its tail, it could quickly become a group of lizards wagging their tails, attacking the brig.

What if the captain make face concealing illegal?

it puts the jumpsuit on its skin
it does this when it is told

it puts the jumpsuit on its skin
or it gets to stay in the cell again.

now it keeps the jumpsuit on its skin
it keeps the jumpsuit on its skin

PUT THE FUCKING JUMPSUIT ON

it's funny that naked people keep coming up because more often than not it's sec I see stripping prisoners naked without giving them a jumpsuit

>you will never be so mad you got dunked by sec you'll code a gamemode change that removes them and seriously try to merge it

J_Madison wrote:it puts the jumpsuit on its skin
it does this when it is told

it puts the jumpsuit on its skin
or it gets to stay in the cell again.

now it keeps the jumpsuit on its skin
it keeps the jumpsuit on its skin

PUT THE FUCKING JUMPSUIT ON

>wasting time brigging them instead of bringing them to medbay and putting a straightjacket on

it's funny because you're clothing them and not wasting everyone's time with a brigging, and it still gets the point across

Arrested the captain for doorcrushing an assistant who broke into the bridge. This is excessive and definitely outside your rights.

It's bannable to stop security from acting psychotic even as security

Kor wrote:

Arrested the captain for doorcrushing an assistant who broke into the bridge. This is excessive and definitely outside your rights.

It's bannable to stop security from acting psychotic even as security

ahahahahaha what the fuck? Who said that???

Qbopper wrote:

J_Madison wrote:it puts the jumpsuit on its skin
it does this when it is told

it puts the jumpsuit on its skin
or it gets to stay in the cell again.

now it keeps the jumpsuit on its skin
it keeps the jumpsuit on its skin

PUT THE FUCKING JUMPSUIT ON

>wasting time brigging them instead of bringing them to medbay and putting a straightjacket on

it's funny because you're clothing them and not wasting everyone's time with a brigging, and it still gets the point across

we have standards here.

J_Madison wrote:we have standards here.

top 10 anime jokes

Kor wrote:

Arrested the captain for doorcrushing an assistant who broke into the bridge. This is excessive and definitely outside your rights.

It's bannable to stop security from acting psychotic even as security

> Arresting the captain as security

Well yeah, that should be bannable. Else you're just encouraging security officers to just stun the captain on the first opportunity they get and come up with a crime on the spot, that usually being doing anything that individual officer didn't like.

Security can arrest the Captain.

Usually in the rare case where the Captain is literally insane and/or doing everything to hinder the station and crew.

As long as it's really serious and not "captain made an arrest I didn't agree with ：("

Individual officer arresting the captain on his own is pretty rare, it's usually done under orders from the HoS who's trying to usurp power for whatever reason. It often results in a civil war between officers loyal to the captain and those loyal to the HoS.

Security can detain and Brig Security, HoS, Warden, and even the Captain if they see fit.
It rarely happens but. I do it.

Nobody's above the law. And unlawful "Murder" of a defenseless man is a common crime between Security/Command just as much as with Assistants.

Capcurity is just as bad as hopcurity and shouldn't happen.

Sligneris wrote:Maybe the best option is to simply not to start shit with security.

Better yet, apply Rule 1 and Rule 7 to CJS.

Rule 0 fits better.

Sligneris wrote:

Kor wrote:

Arrested the captain for doorcrushing an assistant who broke into the bridge. This is excessive and definitely outside your rights.

It's bannable to stop security from acting psychotic even as security

> Arresting the captain as security

that usually being doing anything that individual officer didn't like.

Like torturing a man to death by repeatedly crushing him in an airlock? That sounds exactly like the sort of thing security is supposed to stop.

Oh yes, that man is so innocent, he dindu nuffin and is being crushed 4noraisin. It's not like captain has full authority to deal out such punishment or anything.

There is a vast range of possibilities between "innocent" and "deserves to be murdered by being crushed in a door and if anyone stops this they will be banned"

This is basically the exact attitude OP was talking about, that even the smallest infraction opens you up to any and all sadistic whims security has for the rest of the round.

Kor wrote:There is a vast range of possibilities between "innocent" and "deserves to be murdered by being crushed in a door and if anyone stops this they will be banned"

There used to be, I'm not sure if there are anymore. At this point it looks like a binary - you're either on a spree of minor IC crime or you're not. Security that goes rogue for the sake of protecting greytiders might actually just be the worst.

So you want to introduce a higher standard of role play interactions between security and the crew? You'll need to get admins to actively intervene to force both sides to act in a fair manner or start doling out temp bans.

I doubt that will happen.

That standard has not existed in a long time, as the administration, and playerbase, have shown they don't care for any higher standard of roleplay.

Security is pure binary. Either they are clear to do anything they want to someone, or they release them. The difference between a minor and major crime is slim and its easy to drum up charges to justify any punishment you want to give.

But any standard of roleplay above 'low/lite' is anamatha to the community, as such nothing will change.

/thread

Fukk sec i metagrud them evrytim haha pigs >;^)

Kor wrote:This is basically the exact attitude OP was talking about, that even the smallest infraction opens you up to any and all sadistic whims security has for the rest of the round.

It honestly depends on the reason. Is there something specific you wanted to do, like go space exploring? Then security shouldn't be too heavy-handed about it. But more often than not, it's just typical assistant griefing, rushing brig or bridge for the sake of rushing brig or bridge, provoking reaction from command or security, then complaining about said reaction. OP is particularly notorious for this.

I think what people are saying is someone being door crushed for rushing the bridge isn't rushing the bridge so that he can be a friendly and productive member of the station once his chest gets reinflated. It's not like if the captain arrested him and had him do 10 minutes hed come out a new man, he'd just be a shitter again but there's more likely weapons lying around the station as the round goes on. Basically if you wanna waste securities fucking time they shouldn't be obligated to let you do it 2 or 3 times before permanently stopping you.

Nilons wrote:I think what people are saying is someone being door crushed for rushing the bridge isn't rushing the bridge so that he can be a friendly and productive member of the station once his chest gets reinflated. It's not like if the captain arrested him and had him do 10 minutes hed come out a new man, he'd just be a shitter again but there's more likely weapons lying around the station as the round goes on. Basically if you wanna waste securities fucking time they shouldn't be obligated to let you do it 2 or 3 times before permanently stopping you.

Either they should or people should get the right to dunk security as well.

Like I said, the problem is the unequal escalation rules.

CPTANT wrote:

Nilons wrote:I think what people are saying is someone being door crushed for rushing the bridge isn't rushing the bridge so that he can be a friendly and productive member of the station once his chest gets reinflated. It's not like if the captain arrested him and had him do 10 minutes hed come out a new man, he'd just be a shitter again but there's more likely weapons lying around the station as the round goes on. Basically if you wanna waste securities fucking time they shouldn't be obligated to let you do it 2 or 3 times before permanently stopping you.

Either they should or people should get the right to dunk security as well.

Like I said, the problem is the unequal escalation rules.

you dont have a god given right to be a massive cunt to other players 2 OR 3 TIMES, just 1

Nilons wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

Nilons wrote:I think what people are saying is someone being door crushed for rushing the bridge isn't rushing the bridge so that he can be a friendly and productive member of the station once his chest gets reinflated. It's not like if the captain arrested him and had him do 10 minutes hed come out a new man, he'd just be a shitter again but there's more likely weapons lying around the station as the round goes on. Basically if you wanna waste securities fucking time they shouldn't be obligated to let you do it 2 or 3 times before permanently stopping you.

Either they should or people should get the right to dunk security as well.

Like I said, the problem is the unequal escalation rules.

you dont have a god given right to be a massive cunt to other players 2 OR 3 TIMES, just 1

Ok I'll just toss the next officer that wordlessly tazes me without provocation out an airlock then.

CPTANT wrote:people should get the right to dunk security as well.

wtf what do you mean I can't kill all of security as non-antag assistant??

CPTANT wrote:Ok I'll just toss the next officer that wordlessly tazes me without provocation out an airlock then.

I did that once, when the officer kept chasing me with a taser after three attempts of de-escalating and explaining my case with the officer via PDA.

going just by attitude you're showing here, I honestly suspect you wouldn't go through even that much effort, and would just jump straight to killing.

Lumbermancer wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:randomly arrested

No one ever gets randomly arrested.

I was coding yesterday and was mostly braindead during the rounds.

Yet there were three rounds where I was literally braindead at roundstart and yet I ended up arrested, with all my (default roundstart) equipment stripped off me (by security). I never did get a clear answer as to why security managed to arrest me three times for literally not doing anything. Always just some vague assertion "Oh I heard he had an emag" or some shit. In the last round I grabbed a sec jumpsuit/radio/bag from the clothing locker since all my shit was gone and the Captain gulag'd me for theft even after I explained the situation.

Now imagine what happens during rounds where I'm actually active. You see me getting arrested for using soap on gang tags, hitting people with toy swords, and no shortage of "random searches" that somehow require that I be strapped to a bed in the brig. Bonus points for sentencing me for resisting arrest because I ran away from some officer who just started shooting at me out of the blue.

PKP you say that its our policy but we definitely give security a blanket protection from Rule 1 stuff. If I stripped all of someone's shit in the hall and left them trapped in a 3x3 room for 10 minutes because I saw them hacking a vending machine I'd expect a warning at least. With security I'd expect an immediate response of "IC issue". I mean earlier this year I had to open a complaint because one of our active admins actually supported a warden murdering me because I had been lit on fire and was trying to put it out (justification: if he didn't stun me I might've gotten up and spread the fire) - while was reversed its just an illustration of how lax most of our admins are when it comes to judging sec players.

oranges wrote:security is usually wrong, but if you ahelp it's easily solved

Yes, its easily solved with "IC issue". Very few admins have the stomach to take on sec regulars.

Oldman Robustin wrote:-snip-

Maybe someone was metagrudging you, i mean a lot of people seem to quite dislike you because your history and widely unpopular game modes looking at the OOC flaming.

Sounds like something that should be handled by ahelps really since this is probably a rule violation, this is certainly not the norm.
I doubt your ahelp would get tossed if things are as you lay them out to be.

Oldman Robustin wrote:Yet there were three rounds where I was literally braindead at roundstart and yet I ended up arrested, with all my (default roundstart) equipment stripped off me (by security).

Oldman Robustin wrote:Now imagine what happens during rounds where I'm actually active. You see me getting arrested for using soap on gang tags, hitting people with toy swords, and no shortage of "random searches" that somehow require that I be strapped to a bed in the brig. Bonus points for sentencing me for resisting arrest because I ran away from some officer who just started shooting at me out of the blue.

Metagradging is bad and all, but somehow I still cannot blame them for arresting Oldman Robustin. That's even assuming anything you said here is reliable, which at this point isn't certain either. If your original post is any indication, you might've ended up skipping some details.

Oldman Robustin wrote:In the last round I grabbed a sec jumpsuit/radio/bag from the clothing locker since all my shit was gone and the Captain gulag'd me for theft

How shocking! Clearly, the captain didn't have any right to do that and must've been forbidden from doing so by the rules.

AdAstraPerAspera wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:-snip-

Maybe someone was metagrudging you, i mean a lot of people seem to quite dislike you because your history and widely unpopular game modes looking at the OOC flaming.

Sounds like something that should be handled by ahelps really since this is probably a rule violation, this is certainly not the norm.
I doubt your ahelp would get tossed if things are as you lay them out to be.

Most aggressive response was from a trialmin who agreed to "angrily yell at the captain" but only for gulaging me for trying to get some clothes on while I was stuck in the brig. Nothing on who or why I got there in the first place.

The other responses boiled down to "you should ask security first" "Ok I asked them and got this half-assed answer" *silence*

You're the first person to suggest I'm being metagrudged for my PR's though, pretty funny.

If your original post is any indication, you might've ended up skipping some details.

Nothing was missing. If you believe the lies I shot down them I can't help you. There's nothing else missing in my above post either. I was ready in the lobby, went to code shit, come back 5-15m later and I'm in a brig cell with all my shit removed.

How shocking! Clearly, the captain didn't have any right to do that and must've been forbidden from doing so by the rules.

Shitcurity mentality in a nutshell. It's so hard abusing these players, when I strip every prisoner it gets difficult to keep all their stuff in order! Why not just throw it all away and then gulag them when they pick up a sec radio so they can be asked to be let out of the brig! Clearly this doesn't fall under Rule 1 since security are always good boys and anybody who ends up in the brig is valid anyway so why not just heap on the punishment!

You lying little fuck. You went braindead during a cult round and was moved into the brig and searched.

Because of gameplay stress on the crew, they left you naked. So you came back from being braindead and used that excuse to steal security equipment including a melee stun weapon.

No fuck you, you went braindead you know you could get messed with. That isn't an excuse to ransack brig locker room for whatever you find.

I'm calling you out on this bullshit.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

If your original post is any indication, you might've ended up skipping some details.

Nothing was missing. If you believe the lies I shot down them I can't help you. There's nothing else missing in my above post either. I was ready in the lobby, went to code shit, come back 5-15m later and I'm in a brig cell with all my shit removed.

J_Madison wrote:You lying little fuck. You went braindead during a cult round and was moved into the brig and searched.

Because of gameplay stress on the crew, they left you naked. So you came back from being braindead and used that excuse to steal security equipment including a melee stun weapon.

No fuck you, you went braindead you know you could get messed with. That isn't an excuse to ransack brig locker room for whatever you find.

I'm calling you out on this bullshit.

Steelpoint wrote: Security is pure binary. Either they are clear to do anything they want to someone, or they release them. The difference between a minor and major crime is slim and its easy to drum up charges to justify any punishment you want to give.

Kor wrote:This is basically the exact attitude OP was talking about, that even the smallest infraction opens you up to any and all sadistic whims security has for the rest of the round.

This is the essence of the issue. When security has authorization to to lite-grief anyone for any reason (random searches that can result in several minutes of your round gone, all conducted wordlessly without even the slightest effort to accommodate the player and completely innocuous items like insulated gloves getting confiscated) and heavy grief for minor reasons (having a spear when there's mass-kudzu, having a weapon when weapons just got summoned, or basically existing during any conversion mode) while simultaneously being able to flat out being able to flat out ruin your round for any degree of resistance and having admin protection from any serious retaliation from non-antags and you've got a recipe for some serious fucking powertripping.

And Kor is right, if you see security mutilate or kill someone for a minor crime (even when the rest of the station is intact and relatively calm) and you do the same to security - you're rolling the ban dice with heavy odds against you. I mean that's essentially the story of my 2nd to last ban (HOS seizes control from Captain Trump for being a meme, HOS publicly delimbs the clown who apparently attacked the HOS for gulag'ing the captain, I badly wound the HOS, not even crit, and I caught a ban and had it upheld). Its very common to see a captain hacking off people limbs for minor stuff like hacking into the teleporter but we've reached the point where even shouting "Captain is rogue!" gives cap/sec an opening to toss you in perma, or at least give you a max gulag/cell sentence and stripping all your gear. That's what I mean when I say "apply rule 1" to security, I mean apply some semblance of escalation rules to their behavior besides the current model of:

1) Literally do nothing = 0-5 minutes in sec custody with anything useful 'confiscated' (if you ahelp prepare for the "imperfect players" or "security is a chaotic experience" speech)

2) Literally anything that could be twisted to describe a crime, regardless of context, excuses, or justification = Enjoy your summary execution/perma/1000pt. gulag sentence fuckboy (sane officers are the only reason that there's any middle ground between 1 and 2)