/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:08 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

There is some discussion that is needed over the subject of alternate races being enabled with the September 1, 2014 update.

How will the mutant races interact with the AI?

Will mutant races retain their buffs/debuffs?

How will assuming the identity of a crewmember who is a different race than you work?

Will any more mutant races be introduced/will the feature even stay enabled?

These are all just general talking points to get us started, and I'm sure there are many other things that can be discussed.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:53 pm**

Lizards shouldn't be treated like humans for the AI. If a lizard is like LAW 2 LET ME INTO THE CAPTAIN'S QUARTERS the AI should have every right to be like "fuck you, you're a lizard." They're not humans. Slimepeople, flypeople and hulks (when hulks were nonhuman) don't receive that protection. You'd have to stretch Asimov or rewrite silicon policy considerably to make this make sense.

What lizards should receive is Rule 1 protection. The same thing that prevents the AI from doorcrushing everyone when it's purged because it can. (Honestly, nuke ops are a bad example because no AI in the history of AI plays nuke op rounds full by-the-book Asimov, but doorcrushing someone stopping the op with the disk would definitely fall under this.) It's not the same distinction people are making but it's the one that makes most sense. And it has the benefit of not requiring any coding.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:58 pm**

I don't understand what's wrong with having lizards be treated like hulks.

Sure, a warning on the setup screen might be in order.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:09 pm**

A robot may not injure crew or, through inaction, allow crew to come to harm.
A robot must obey the orders given to it by the crew, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

This is called Crewsimov, and it's on most RP servers with multiple species. Perhaps it can help out here?
Crew is defined by anyone on the crew manifest.

Spoiler:

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:13 pm**

Nevermind.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:16 pm**

Scott wrote:Infiltrated antags are part of the crew. You can't use that lawset unless you're willing to add metagame laws.

This sentence doesn't make sense. You can't use this lawset for what?

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:19 pm**

Scott wrote:Infiltrated antags are part of the crew. You can't use that lawset unless you're willing to add metagame laws.

The only antags the AI can kill are Nuke Ops, Wizards, and Constructs.
They CANNOT kill Traitors, Changelings, Revs, and cultists.
If they're on the crew manifest, they cannot be killed by the AI.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:24 pm**

Yup it works.

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:39 am**

Spacemanspark wrote:
Scott wrote:Infiltrated antags are part of the crew. You can't use that lawset unless you're willing to add metagame laws.
The only antags the AI can kill are Nuke Ops, Wizards, and Constructs.
They CANNOT kill Traitors, Changelings, Revs, and cultists.
If they're on the crew manifest, they cannot be killed by the AI.

It could be established that the identity changelings start with are humans they've killed and replaced, in which case the changeling itself isn't on the crew manifest, if we want to keep changelings valid to the AI. Though, some changes unrelated to lizards from this change could be desirable. The possibility of kicking someone off the crew in order to dehuman them without modifying the AI is intriguing.

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:00 pm**

Ooh, that's not a bad idea. And as aside, having lings be not insta-valid would mean borgs might try to detain them in harm cages or something. I've always liked the idea of trying to like, permabrig a ling and weld the vents or whatever, but it's always too dangerous for a human officer to even drag them to the brig unless they're compliant. A borg wouldn't have such issues.

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:40 pm**

Hibbles wrote:Ooh, that's not a bad idea. And as aside, having lings be not insta-valid would mean borgs might try to detain them in harm cages or something. I've always liked the idea of trying to like, permabrig a ling and weld the vents or whatever, but it's always too dangerous for a human officer to even drag them to the brig unless they're compliant. A borg wouldn't have such issues.

>borg
>doing anything to a living EMP spammer

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:33 pm**

I like how robust the ling EMP is, cyborgs can be a real pain in the ass and at least one antagonist needs to be able to counter them.

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:19 pm**

When I was arguing for ling EMP, I pointed out that every antag except rev, in fact, has easy EMP.

EMP Kit, Dissonant Shriek, EMP Talisman, Nuke Op Ion Rifle, EMP spell...

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:26 pm**

Pandarsenic wrote:When I was arguing for ling EMP, I pointed out that every antag except rev, in fact, has easy EMP.

EMP Kit, Dissonant Shriek, EMP Talisman, Nuke Op Ion Rifle, EMP spell...

EMP kit is garbage, and so is EMP talisman. Ion Rifle is good, but requires you to not be a fluke op. Wizard is wizard.

Posted: **Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:42 pm**

Scott wrote:
Pandarsenic wrote:When I was arguing for ling EMP, I pointed out that every antag except rev, in fact, has easy EMP.

EMP Kit, Dissonant Shriek, EMP Talisman, Nuke Op Ion Rifle, EMP spell...

EMP kit is garbage

uwot

Posted: **Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:20 pm**

Institutionalized specisism would add a lot more flavor in my opinion. Lizards are drastically different from humans and it would be easier to justify than racism is.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:14 am**

The racism seems to have died down now anyway.

Good call earlier in the thread to sit tight for a while.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:45 am**

oranges wrote:The racism seems to have died down now anyway.

Good call earlier in the thread to sit tight for a while.

At least in my case, its simmered to a "I don't trust "those types"" sort of thing.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:02 am**

Good, racism towards lizards makes it more fun.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:41 pm**

The other day I saw humans wanting to be let into a dangerous room, and the AI refused them on Law 1 grounds, but a lizardman crewmember spoke up and said "I'm not human, you can let me in," so the AI complied. It's interesting to see how having crewmembers without Law 1 protection can actually lead to some situations that are more interesting for everyone.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:45 pm**

Arete wrote:The other day I saw humans wanting to be let into a dangerous room, and the AI refused them on Law 1 grounds, but a lizardman crewmember spoke up and said "I'm not human, you can let me in," so the AI complied. It's interesting to see how having crewmembers without Law 1 protection can actually lead to some situations that are more interesting for everyone.

That was the captain's room that the clown dropped a clownbomb in, wasn't it? I watched that whole hilarious mess play out.
Turns out the lizard got everybody killed in the end anyway by letting them all loose.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:57 pm**

Saegrimr wrote:That was the captain's room that the clown dropped a clownbomb in, wasn't it? I watched that whole hilarious mess play out.
Turns out the lizard got everybody killed in the end anyway by letting them all loose.

Yeah, exactly. It gave the AI that necessary bit of leeway to make a risky decision rather than keeping the obvious threat completely and boringly contained.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:26 pm**

Pepper-spraying space racists as sec is fun times for all.

Posted: **Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:53 pm**

Apsis wrote:Pepper-spraying space racists as sec is fun times for all.

Almost as fun as pepper spraying lizards.

Posted: **Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:02 pm**

Intigracy wrote:Catbeasts when?

No please.

Posted: **Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:18 pm**

Add catbeasts just so I can finally get some use out of all these cat puns I have as clown.

Posted: **Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:41 pm**

add catbeasts with the caveat that anyone who plays them is always valid at all times

Posted: **Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:01 pm**

I'd better get to be a fairy dragon.

Posted: **Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:02 pm**

Why not come up with a unique alien race that is not a oversized cat.

Posted: **Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:05 pm**

because baystation12

Posted: **Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:12 am**

Steelpoint wrote:Why not come up with a unique alien race that is not a oversized cat.

How about an oversized bird, in honor of Tokiko?

Posted: **Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:40 am**

Cipher3 wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Why not come up with a unique alien race that is not a oversized cat.
How about an oversized bird, in honor of Tokiko?

Vox is already something Baystation came up with.
http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Vox
Otherwise, yes.

Spoiler:

Posted: **Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:16 am**

I TOLD YOU ABOUT THOSE SLOPES BRO. I TOLD YOU.

Posted: **Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:07 am**

cedarbridge wrote:I TOLD YOU ABOUT THOSE SLOPES BRO. I TOLD YOU.

Pssh. We're only adding a couple more furry races...

Posted: **Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:04 pm**

Thread necro because relevant.

[Common] Nikolas Garneys says, "FUCK YOU LIGGER SHIT"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys says, "FUCK YOU"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys says, "AND FUCK YOUR HISSING"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys says, "NOBODY LIKES YOU ANYWAY"
[Common] Terry Newday says, "KILL ALL LIGGERS"
[Common] Rylie Pfeifer says, "Zip your howling screamer, Nikolas."
[Common] Nikolas Garneys says, "KILL ALL LIGGERS"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys exclaims, "GAS TH ELIGGERS GAS THE SCUM!"
[Common] Terry Newday yells, "KILL THE LIGGERS!!"
[Common] Rylie Pfeifer says, "Or you're getting brigged for inciting a riot."
[Common] Nikolas Garneys exclaims, "GAS ALL LIGGER SHILL FILTH!"
[Common] Rocco Brandenburg says, "Just shut up Nikolas."
[Common] Salts-The-Wound hisses, "Itsss gonna be one of thessse daysss"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys says, "FUCK OFF NERDASS"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys yells, "I AM JUSTICE!!"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys yells, "I AM JUSTICE!!"
[Common] Terry Newday yells, "I AM NUCLEAR!!"
[Common] Nikolas Garneys yells, "GAS ALL LIGGERS, SHALL DEATH BE UPON THEM ALL!!"

Look, I get that lizardmen are considered the lesser race in the setting, and that casual racism is a given, but I feel that this kind of intellectual exchange is a little too much, a little too often.

Posted: **Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:25 pm**

I'm pretty sure you can ahelp if it goes that far. At very least that Pfeifer person is right. Inciting a riot like that is briggable.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:02 am**

AnonymousNow wrote:Look, I get that lizardmen are considered the lesser race in the setting, and that casual racism is a given, but I feel that this kind of intellectual exchange is a little too much, a little too often.

how about you just let security deal with it

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:03 am**

Steelpoint wrote:Do you honestly think a player is going to name themselves "Shits-On-Face"?

if only he knew

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:23 am**

iamgoofball wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:Look, I get that lizardmen are considered the lesser race in the setting, and that casual racism is a given, but I feel that this kind of intellectual exchange is a little too much, a little too often.
how about you just let security deal with it

But they don't.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:44 am**

AnonymousNow wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:Look, I get that lizardmen are considered the lesser race in the setting, and that casual racism is a given, but I feel that this kind of intellectual exchange is a little too much, a little too often.
how about you just let security deal with it
But they don't.

Oh yeah, I've had humans just flat out attack me FNR lately as a lizard. I was the bartender, and the only reason I managed to dunk them both (then fall into crit from bloodloss atop their dead bodies) was because they were using literally the most unrobust weapons on the entire station, rolling pins. If they had used knives or god forbid cleavers, I'd have been dead as fuck, and had all my shit looted and also probably gibbed. This is a problem.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:50 am**

if we didnt have lizards this wouldnt be a problem

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:58 am**

Don't Be A Dick isn't being enforced, in my opinion. Again, part of the flavour is the race power dynamic, but when the bartender's being jumped because he has scales, it's a problem.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:20 am**

AnonymousNow wrote:Don't Be A Dick isn't being enforced, in my opinion. Again, part of the flavour is the race power dynamic, but when the bartender's being jumped because he has scales, it's a problem.

Honestly, they probably just wanted his shotgun and used "gas the lizards race war now" as an excuse.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:42 am**

AnonymousNow wrote:Don't Be A Dick isn't being enforced, in my opinion. Again, part of the flavour is the race power dynamic, but when the bartender's being jumped because he has scales, it's a problem.

Is it?

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:58 am**

Scones wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:Don't Be A Dick isn't being enforced, in my opinion. Again, part of the flavour is the race power dynamic, but when the bartender's being jumped because he has scales, it's a problem.
Is it?

I'm surprised this one even needed to be asked. Yes, Being A Dick is a problem.
Are you going out of your way as a non-antag, to negatively impact someone else's round without suitable provocation*?
Yes? Then you're Being A Dick, which is bad.

*If they went on a murdering spree, that's suitable provocation. If they tried to kill you, that's suitable provocation. If you're Sec and they're a no-good criminal, that's suitable provocation. If they're a lizardperson, that's not, because Holocaust references and racial slurs went out of style in 1945/1786 respectively.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:00 am**

It'll be enforced when you ahelp it.

/tg/Station 13

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