/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:58 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

So, with a recent ban appeal involving killing a borg for following its laws, I think it's time that we rethink the policy on that. It's realistic and expected that conflict between security and cyborgs should exist- their jobs often directly conflict, especially on chaotic conversion based modes and when lethal force is needed to stop someone.

"As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1." -The Rules

I think that killing a silicon should be accepted as a viable way to stop the silicon from interfering with whatever you are doing that happens to conflict. For example, if it's a rev round and a silicon drags away head revs you are trying to execute, it should be okay to kill the cyborg. The catch is this: You must repair it as soon as possible, or when the situation calms down. This seems fair to me because there's two ways to stop a cyborg without killing it:

1) Lockdown. This is not reasonable normally because you have to ask the RD, and he'll ask why, etc which takes forever. Lockdown is only really useful if you don't know where the borg is and it's acted/acting like a shit and you want to stop it.

2) Chain flash. You can't realistically flash a borg forever and deal with whatever mess the borg made while you're flashing him. Telling them to stop sometimes works but more often than not they just run off or cite law one and keep doing what they're doing.

So updated version:
"As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons without repairing them at the earliest possible time in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1. (You still need a reason to kill one, but as long as you repair it swiftly, it will be treated as critting another human- needs escalation but is okay as long as you heal them.)"

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:58 am**

it's funny how borgs went from a punishment role to this

edit: oh dear page 3

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:36 am**

Qbopper wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Silicons are fun BECAUSE of the higher RP standard in my opinion. You get to try to play an alien mindset.
This is a really, really subjective mindset. For a lot of players (me included, at least when I was new), knowing how easy it is to fuck up and get banned is incredibly anxiety inducing which inherently makes the role much less appealing. It's really unwise to base silicon design decisions off of this.
on the other hand removing the one part that makes them unique because people fear failure strikes me as missing the point

Also unrestricted silicons are also horribly unbalanced considering they are outright better than a human is at most roles they share. Making them humans but better at their jobs at the expense of less versatility is a bad move.

Posted: **Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:39 am**

Yes kill borgs for following laws.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:53 am**

In the lore borgs are experimental. "Artificial Intelligence field testing: a new generation of thinking machine has been developed. Rumor has it that it's based on theoretical human brain designs, though darker rumors say that actual brains taken from unwilling 'volunteers' are used in either the production or maintenance of these new systems. The newest version of one of several available models has been graciously provided by CentCom and entrusted with the electronic systems on board the station. No errors are expected and psychorobotic specialists have been provided for station convenience among the engineering staff." https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Backstory# ... _Existence
Meaning they should have some faults that will be worked out over time meaning that faulty AI and borgs should be tolerated IC as they are a new technology.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:33 am**

what is the point of laws if admins jump in to save you any time they could become inconvenient

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:53 pm**

Nilons wrote:what is the point of laws if admins jump in to save you any time they could become inconvenient

What's the point of laws if security uses them as an excuse to murder somebody any time they could become inconvenient?

I promise. This isn't the logical road you think you want to go down.

Posted: **Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:45 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Nilons wrote:what is the point of laws if admins jump in to save you any time they could become inconvenient
What's the point of laws if security uses them as an excuse to murder somebody any time they could become inconvenient?

I promise. This isn't the logical road you think you want to go down.

There are situations that aren't "Borg said dont harm killing him". This is a problem with security not having the tools to deal with it, not with security. Having laws is shitty, there's a reason its a punishment to be borged, if you play a borg and want to sit in the brig waiting for some human harm to happen and then refuse to talk about it before dragging the changeling off you deserve to be broken. Part of playing a role that is inherently a punishment/considered less than humans is being bludgeoned to death when you go out of your way to be inconvenient in situations without an alternative.

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:57 am**

Nilons wrote:Part of playing a role that is inherently a punishment/considered less than humans is being bludgeoned to death when you go out of your way to be inconvenient in situations without an alternative.

I'm not thrilled about how you state this as though it were policy.

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:00 am**

cedarbridge wrote:
Nilons wrote:what is the point of laws if admins jump in to save you any time they could become inconvenient
What's the point of laws if security uses them as an excuse to murder somebody any time they could become inconvenient?

I promise. This isn't the logical road you think you want to go down.

If there's no other way to deal with that inconvenient thing I see no issue with killing them AND REPAIRING THEM LATER.

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:09 am**

BeeSting12 wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Nilons wrote:what is the point of laws if admins jump in to save you any time they could become inconvenient
What's the point of laws if security uses them as an excuse to murder somebody any time they could become inconvenient?

I promise. This isn't the logical road you think you want to go down.
If there's no other way to deal with that inconvenient thing I see no issue with killing them AND REPAIRING THEM LATER.

Repairing them later implies you have both the time and the ability to do such, and if that is true then you probably had both the time and the ability to hold off on the harm baton.

Kill a revhead and beat up a borg because they saw and tried to stop you? Enjoy walking to robotics and dying or getting banned :^)

Naturally the response is "sometimes you just lose", which could also be true for getting caught harming. The difference is one has an obligation IC/OOCly (laws or banned) whereas the other one has a heavily suggested IC reasoning (capital crime and self-preservation) with a heavily suggested OOC reasoning (to win the game). The protection should go to the one who has the obligation.

Now if borgs were a punishment role as they should have been...

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:16 am**

Cyborg restoration is much easier than living crew.

It's like of if defibs didn't time out for the living.

Treating them the same rules wise is pure absurdity.

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:12 pm**

Incomptinence wrote:Cyborg restoration is much easier than living crew.

It's like of if defibs didn't time out for the living.

Treating them the same rules wise is pure absurdity.

There is a sizeable metal and glass cost to make a reactivation board actually. It is common material but it is nothing to sneeze at, plus the module still takes a bit of time to create.

Plus there is the whole, you have to take them to robotics thing.

Overall there needs to just be some way to cut their lockdown wire without an emag or robotics access. Make those damn borg cuffs.

Posted: **Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:50 pm**

Or, again, not harm / get captain to change its laws.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:27 am**

I'm going to put some input here from a non human perspective, seeing as I almost exclusively play lizard.

If I am fighting a human antag/na'er do well and a borg runs up and attempts to harm or disable me, I am killing that borg. I am also NOT going to revive it. As a lizard who killed/harmed a human, I am 100% valid to that borg now, I'm not going to fix something that has a very high chance of coming back for my tail.

If the borg limits itself to verbal cues to stop, I will stop if the human does.

If the borg tries to kill me again if it was fixed, I'm spacing it.

The "don't harm in front of borgs" shit doesn't fly for us lizards if we are being harmed by humans.

TLDR: If I'm valid for fighting a human, that borg is valid if it touches me.

EDIT: So here is an example story from a few months back.

I was a solo warden on pubby and arrested a traitor who broke into toxins and was making a bomb.

I krav magaed him to stop him while he was running cuffed around brig. He started screaming for the mediborg and AI to save him. The borg attempted to, but I chainflashed it.

Now there was no other sec and the only command staff were a CMO and a braindead CE. I found bombs and syndie gear after I got him to brig and decided to kill him because of lowpop bombs and dual esword. Borg comes in and starts sawing me while AI locks me down. I kill the borg and tell the CMO to make me human or tell the AI to listen, but the CMO doesn't care (and was a traitor too no less).

Some greyshit already had the caps spare and the AI was locking me down and sending armsky and beepsky after me. I tried to change laws after escaping, but AI turned on stun lethal and tried to kill me.

So after healing I killed the AI too. I did not fix them because they followed their laws TOO well. If you plan on making a lizard permavalid for killing/harming a human, I'm going to give you the same treatment.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:34 am**

Sweets wrote:I'm going to put some input here from a non human perspective, seeing as I almost exclusively play lizard.

If I am fighting a human antag/na'er do well and a borg runs up and attempts to harm or disable me, I am killing that borg. I am also NOT going to revive it. As a lizard who killed/harmed a human, I am 100% valid to that borg now, I'm not going to fix something that has a very high chance of coming back for my tail.

If the borg limits itself to verbal cues to stop, I will stop if the human does.

If the borg tries to kill me again if it was fixed, I'm spacing it.

The "don't harm in front of borgs" shit doesn't fly for us lizards if we are being harmed by humans.

TLDR: If I'm valid for fighting a human, that borg is valid if it touches me.

EDIT: So here is an example story from a few months back.

I was a solo warden on pubby and arrested a traitor who broke into toxins and was making a bomb.

I krav magaed him to stop him while he was running cuffed around brig. He started screaming for the mediborg and AI to save him. The borg attempted to, but I chainflashed it.

Now there was no other sec and the only command staff were a CMO and a braindead CE. I found bombs and syndie gear after I got him to brig and decided to kill him because of lowpop bombs and dual esword. Borg comes in and starts sawing me while AI locks me down. I kill the borg and tell the CMO to make me human or tell the AI to listen, but the CMO doesn't care (and was a traitor too no less).

Some greyshit already had the caps spare and the AI was locking me down and sending armsky and beepsky after me. I tried to change laws after escaping, but AI turned on stun lethal and tried to kill me.

So after healing I killed the AI too. I did not fix them because they followed their laws TOO well. If you plan on making a lizard permavalid for killing/harming a human, I'm going to give you the same treatment.

I have to wonder what part of this thread put non-human vs borg validity in question.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:42 am**

Just posting how lizards deal with it for comparison. If we aren't obliged to fix a borg, humans shouldn't be either.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:41 pm**

It is a valid question because if you don't consider that story then you're giving preferential treatment to the borgs. The borgs can insta-valid the lizards because non-human, but the lizards can't complain about shitty laws on part of the synths and get no protection?
Make up your fucking minds on how fucking hugbox you want the place to be or not.

Being a cyborg is not being part of the normal crew. They are a tool. This is a major thing that needs to be understood or we need to entirely redo synths here because if they are going to get every fucking protection as everybody else, they should just be a bloody fucking crewman that just happens to be a goddamn robot, free will and all.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:35 pm**

Gamarr wrote:It is a valid question because if you don't consider that story then you're giving preferential treatment to the borgs. The borgs can insta-valid the lizards because non-human, but the lizards can't complain about shitty laws on part of the synths and get no protection?
Make up your fucking minds on how fucking hugbox you want the place to be or not.

Being a cyborg is not being part of the normal crew. They are a tool. This is a major thing that needs to be understood or we need to entirely redo synths here because if they are going to get every fucking protection as everybody else, they should just be a bloody fucking crewman that just happens to be a goddamn robot, free will and all.

That is the given disadvantage of playing non-human crew I thought? If you dont like it, change the laws to include lizards.

Borgs might not HAVE to go lethal if they had more non-lethal options... like maybe a stun baton in the PK module or something.

Also you do not have a right to harm people, even if it is for legitimate RP reasons that just means you wont get banned for it, it doesnt remove all in character consequences for what you did, and bitching that the borgs want you dead for your bloodlust and then murdering ALL of them is a bit too far dont you think?

Security has enough non-lethal tools to handle almost every threat that would piss off the borgs, your valids are not a sacred right.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:37 pm**

Sweets wrote:TLDR: If I'm valid for fighting a human, that borg is valid if it touches me.

By this logic Security is valid to borgs and just about everyone else the moment they try and stun or fight.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:07 pm**

Davidchan wrote:
Sweets wrote:TLDR: If I'm valid for fighting a human, that borg is valid if it touches me.
By this logic Security is valid to borgs and just about everyone else the moment they try and stun or fight.

No, read my post. A borg can freely go to town and try to kill me because I am a lizard. A borg can do nothing to a human sec officer using nonharmful methods.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:20 pm**

Gamarr wrote:It is a valid question because if you don't consider that story then you're giving preferential treatment to the borgs. The borgs can insta-valid the lizards because non-human, but the lizards can't complain about shitty laws on part of the synths and get no protection?
Make up your fucking minds on how fucking hugbox you want the place to be or not.

This doesn't really follow logically. The framework we go into this entire issue with is the lizard player as far back as character creation understands that the borg will be obligated to intervene if it sees the lizard harming a human. I mean. If you really wanted to take this so nonsense world, if a lizard specifically attacked a human in front of a borg to get the borg to attack them, isn't that killbaiting? Of course we don't treat it like killbaiting because players aren't literal robots. We expect that players are capable of basic processing and making choices. Non-borgs and non-AI are not bound by any laws that aren't the server rules. There is no "lizard policy" that lizard players have to check to see what rules of engagement they're required to follow. Its really hard to call the scenario outlined unfair or unjust when the lizard player is clearly put on notice that their actions make them valid.

This isn't an issue about hugboxing. Its about players using the laws as an excuse to remove players acting in good faith on an obligation that failure to act on would get them banned. Players insist that AI and borgs are strongly enforced against under silicon policy and thus its the largest but most clearly outlined part of the server rules. It does lead to a lot of situations where the player playing the borg is just SOL, but this thread is attempting to address a few cases where merely playing the role as intended leads the player to be removed from the round. I'm thinking really hard and I can't think of any other roles in the game right now that carry the tag line "play me in a self-destructive way or get banned" but that's certainly the concern being addressed with AI and borgs here.

Sweets wrote:
Davidchan wrote:
Sweets wrote:TLDR: If I'm valid for fighting a human, that borg is valid if it touches me.
By this logic Security is valid to borgs and just about everyone else the moment they try and stun or fight.
No, read my post. A borg can freely go to town and try to kill me because I am a lizard. A borg can do nothing to a human sec officer using nonharmful methods.

The borg can "freely go to town" on a lizard if that lizard harms humans or a human. That is because their laws REQUIRE them to stop you from harming the humans. They do nothing to the non-harmful human because their laws require them to do nothing to a non-harmful human. This is literally the basis for non-human interactions with Asimov lawsets. As said above, if you don't like getting dunked by borgs then you either need to convince the captain/RD to change the laws or deal with the fact that you can't mug humans in front of a borg/AI.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:28 pm**

They made their bed when they picked Silicon/asked to be Siliconed/chose to continue playing as a silicon. Just like I understood the disadvantages that may lead to an unjust death as a lizard/cat/fly/plasmeme, they have to deal with their own disadvantages.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:45 pm**

there is always the goonstation route. Remove the imperative to act.

rewrite law 1 as you cannot harm a human, remove cannot let a human come to harm. boom problem solved.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:23 pm**

Sweets wrote:They made their bed when they picked Silicon/asked to be Siliconed/chose to continue playing as a silicon. Just like I understood the disadvantages that may lead to an unjust death as a lizard/cat/fly/plasmeme, they have to deal with their own disadvantages.

Maybe you're not understanding or i'm not understanding your position but the crux of the lizard-ai parallelism is that lizards do not have an obligation to harm humans. You have no obligations whatsoever as a lizard except rules given to all individuals. Silicons DO have an obligation to at the very least conflict with you harming the human.

To be frank, if they are being shitty and seeing it as green light to try to kill you (this is assuming you haven't forced their hand by repeatedly harming), feel free to kill them and put them on DNR. If they want to choose the worst option then they can reap what they sow.

Silicon is also not an entirely opt-in role, as forceborging exists.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:41 pm**

Cobby wrote:
Sweets wrote:They made their bed when they picked Silicon/asked to be Siliconed/chose to continue playing as a silicon. Just like I understood the disadvantages that may lead to an unjust death as a lizard/cat/fly/plasmeme, they have to deal with their own disadvantages.
Maybe you're not understanding or i'm not understanding your position but the crux of the lizard-ai parallelism is that lizards do not have an obligation to harm humans. You have no obligations whatsoever as a lizard except rules given to all individuals. Silicons DO have an obligation to at the very least conflict with you harming the human.

To be frank, if they are being shitty and seeing it as green light to try to kill you (this is assuming you haven't forced their hand by repeatedly harming), feel free to kill them and put them on DNR. If they want to choose the worst option then they can reap what they sow.

Silicon is also not an entirely opt-in role, as forceborging exists.

With respect Cobby, I fully disagree. If I am in a fight with an shitter, be it nuke op/wizard/tator/rev/greytider/ect with no way to disable them and cuff them/they sic a borg on me, I will view that borg as an extension of them and kill it. I am not obligated to harm true, but I am also NOT obligated to retreat. If someone uses lethal force on me I will pay it back in kind.

So even if I win the fight, I have a silicon who has a human harming lizard in front of them who will most likely try to kill me to prevent harm to future humans.

Furthermore, silicon is an entirely opt in role. You don't have to play if you are borged. You can ghost and go play as a drone or lavaland spawn.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:59 pm**

Sweets wrote:
Cobby wrote:
Sweets wrote:They made their bed when they picked Silicon/asked to be Siliconed/chose to continue playing as a silicon. Just like I understood the disadvantages that may lead to an unjust death as a lizard/cat/fly/plasmeme, they have to deal with their own disadvantages.
Maybe you're not understanding or i'm not understanding your position but the crux of the lizard-ai parallelism is that lizards do not have an obligation to harm humans. You have no obligations whatsoever as a lizard except rules given to all individuals. Silicons DO have an obligation to at the very least conflict with you harming the human.

To be frank, if they are being shitty and seeing it as green light to try to kill you (this is assuming you haven't forced their hand by repeatedly harming), feel free to kill them and put them on DNR. If they want to choose the worst option then they can reap what they sow.

Silicon is also not an entirely opt-in role, as forceborging exists.
With respect Cobby, I fully disagree. If I am in a fight with an shitter, be it nuke op/wizard/tator/rev/greytider/ect with no way to disable them and cuff them/they sic a borg on me, I will view that borg as an extension of them and kill it. I am not obligated to harm true, but I am also NOT obligated to retreat. If someone uses lethal force on me I will pay it back in kind.

So even if I win the fight, I have a silicon who has a human harming lizard in front of them who will most likely try to kill me to prevent harm to future humans.

Furthermore, silicon is an entirely opt in role. You don't have to play if you are borged. You can ghost and go play as a drone or lavaland spawn.

Are you really going with some sort of weird stand-your-ground argument here? You realize that your choice to remain and fight the human is a choice you are conciously making and thus that choice is opening you to consequences to which you are also on notice? You're entirely in the driver's seat here and whining that the choice you want to make gets you assblasted by a borg who is obligated by its laws to do so. You're not a victim of anything but your own thirst for violence.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:25 pm**

I am fully aware of the consequences of fighting a human while nonhuman in front of a borg. I am not mad or salty about a borg following its laws to help a human in that case. What I am going for is should I be forced by server rules as a nonhuman to assist in the reviving of a being that provides no benefit to me and is a direct hazard to my well being?

Let me try to better frame my argument then.

The point of this thread was the suggestion that the policy be changed to:
"As a nonantagonist human, killing or detonating silicons without repairing them at the earliest possible time in the presence of a viable and reasonably expedient alternative and without cause to be concerned of potential subversion is a violation of Server Rule 1. (You still need a reason to kill one, but as long as you repair it swiftly, it will be treated as critting another human- needs escalation but is okay as long as you heal them.)"

(While I understand the "As a nonantagonist human" at the start, I want to clear any grey zones this could apply to for non humans)

My observation is this:

If I as a non-antag non-human am attacked by a human of ANY stripe while a silicon is around and defend myself, one of usually four outcomes will occur:

1. I kill both the borg and human.
2. I kill the borg and the human runs
3. I kill/crit the human and the Borg continues their assault or drags away the hurt/dead human.
4. I die.

4 is understandable and simple. 1-3 is where there is a grey area for me.

In the case of 1 and 2 would I be required to fix something that tried to kill me? If so, that seems like a very poor decision. Why should I try to revive something that could legally try to kill me the next time it saw me? Even if it didn't attack me as soon as it was fixed, who's to say i would win round two versus that borg and another human? It is entirely unproductive in terms of self preservation.

Regarding 3, The borg is either still a threat to me, or is going to heal a threat to me. Again in terms of self preservation why should I let them get away?

Getting security/RD/Cap to do something doesn't always work either. What if I am security? What if there is no security? What if there is no HoP/RD/Cap to lock the bot down or change laws?

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:41 pm**

You seem to be forgetting the "run away" and "subdue with the non-lethal tools that you have with you as a security officer" choices.

You are not entitled to your valids, and being a dick to silicons because they are trying to stop you from extrajudicial executions makes you in the wrong.

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:47 pm**

people who do the "I have X options" lists almost always ignore nonlethal outcomes

Posted: **Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:51 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:You seem to be forgetting the "run away" and "subdue with the non-lethal tools that you have with you as a security officer" choices.

You are not entitled to your valids, and being a dick to silicons because they are trying to stop you from extrajudicial executions makes you in the wrong.

Sorry to tell you, but this isn't Baystation. Lethal force can always be met with lethal force. I have NO obligation to run away.

I don't validhunt, but if I'm the only sec officer dealing with a traitor or someone tries to kill me, I am going to try to kill them. Borgs or not.

Qbopper wrote:people who do the "I have X options" lists almost always ignore nonlethal outcomes

What "nonlethal" options would I have as a Curator? Or Chaplain? Or Clown? I'm not goign to carry cablecuffs and a stunprod everywhere.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:55 am**

Sweets wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:You seem to be forgetting the "run away" and "subdue with the non-lethal tools that you have with you as a security officer" choices.

You are not entitled to your valids, and being a dick to silicons because they are trying to stop you from extrajudicial executions makes you in the wrong.
Sorry to tell you, but this isn't Baystation. Lethal force can always be met with lethal force. I have NO obligation to run away.

I don't validhunt, but if I'm the only sec officer dealing with a traitor or someone tries to kill me, I am going to try to kill them. Borgs or not.

cedarbridge wrote:Are you really going with some sort of weird stand-your-ground argument here? You realize that your choice to remain and fight the human is a choice you are conciously making and thus that choice is opening you to consequences to which you are also on notice? You're entirely in the driver's seat here and whining that the choice you want to make gets you assblasted by a borg who is obligated by its laws to do so. You're not a victim of anything but your own thirst for violence.

The mere fact that policy says that violence can be met with violence does not compel you to violence. Your choice to execute somebody in front of a borg is exactly that. Your choice. You are not entitled to your valids.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:33 am**

It is your choice to play as a nonhuman character.
It is your choice to confront antagonists instead of running away.

It may or may not have been the choice for the silicon to play as a silicon.
Silicons have no choice but to stop you if you're fighting a human.

If you're using your choices as a paper-thin excuse to remove players from the round, don't be surprised if admins get involved.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:06 pm**

RandomMarine wrote:It is your choice to play as a nonhuman character.
It is your choice to confront antagonists instead of running away.

It may or may not have been the choice for the silicon to play as a silicon.
Silicons have no choice but to stop you if you're fighting a human.

If you're using your choices as a paper-thin excuse to remove players from the round, don't be surprised if admins get involved.

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:32 pm**

Sweets wrote:
Qbopper wrote:people who do the "I have X options" lists almost always ignore nonlethal outcomes
What "nonlethal" options would I have as a Curator? Or Chaplain? Or Clown? I'm not goign to carry cablecuffs and a stunprod everywhere.

crit them and get help?

run away?

talk to them (though good luck pulling this one off nowadays, especially considering i'm replying to someone who's saying "WHAT DO I DO OTHER THAN KILL THEM")?

literally anything that isn't combat to the death?

Posted: **Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:58 pm**

RandomMarine wrote:It is your choice to play as a nonhuman character.
It is your choice to confront antagonists instead of running away.

It may or may not have been the choice for the silicon to play as a silicon.
Silicons have no choice but to stop you if you're fighting a human.

If you're using your choices as a paper-thin excuse to remove players from the round, don't be surprised if admins get involved.

It's the very nature of the borg being without choice to intervene despite context that warrants the rule the OP proposes, though. A borg can't make any judgement when it comes to preventing human harm. If somebody's unstunnable/other undetainable and going around mass murdering everybody then naturally it would be beneficial for everyone if they were killed, but an Asimov borg is unable to make this call no matter what, so when they intervene it's up to the people to stop them and the only way that can even be done without access to the robotics console is by killing them.

Remember that the proposed rule says that you can only get away with it if you immediately repair the borg once the conflict is resolved: You can't just kill them and leave them for dead.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:21 am**

3 pages in on a ol chestnut that will never be resolved, we have uppity lizard players now!

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:22 am**

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Silicons are fun BECAUSE of the higher RP standard in my opinion. You get to try to play an alien mindset.
This is a really, really subjective mindset. For a lot of players (me included, at least when I was new), knowing how easy it is to fuck up and get banned is incredibly anxiety inducing which inherently makes the role much less appealing. It's really unwise to base silicon design decisions off of this.

Seconded. Silicons are held to this maddeningly perfect standard by admins, and players all treat them like fucking dogshit no matter how hard they try or how good a job they do. It's similar to sec, except if someone pisses you off s sec you can kick their ass or ignore them and the admins won't scream at you.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:34 am**

If a traitor is trying to murder you and you're a janitor lizard and the borg joins in then I don't think it's an OOC issue if the lizard kills a borg because they were kinda forced into that the same way the borg was forced into helping

If you're regular security and you decide to yell on the radio about how much you love executions and beat the cuffed guy to death in the hall and then kill the borg for trying to stop you that isn't okay because you created a completely uneeded and avoidable situation

Sometimes your laws are going to bring you into violent conflict with the crew and both of you will be valid to one another that is the nature of playing silicons or mutants and you dont have to play either role if you don't like that

I didnt read the thread by the way just letting people know how we have enforced the rules since the dawn of time

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:48 am**

Cobby wrote:To be frank, if they are being shitty and seeing it as green light to try to kill you (this is assuming you haven't forced their hand by repeatedly harming), feel free to kill them and put them on DNR. If they want to choose the worst option then they can reap what they sow.

With effective silicon non lethal weapons reduced to a flash controlling violent non humans means resorting to lethal means first if they have any eye protection.

Do not dawdle around harm you will be ahelped for being sub optimal.

Posted: **Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:16 pm**

Incomptinence wrote:
Cobby wrote:To be frank, if they are being shitty and seeing it as green light to try to kill you (this is assuming you haven't forced their hand by repeatedly harming), feel free to kill them and put them on DNR. If they want to choose the worst option then they can reap what they sow.
With effective silicon non lethal weapons reduced to a flash controlling violent non humans means resorting to lethal means first if they have any eye protection.

Do not dawdle around harm you will be ahelped for being sub optimal.

"this is assuming you haven't forced their hand"

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:07 pm**

The real problem is ASIMOV is designed to generate player conflict (Because robots have a different set of goals)
Borgs need escalation rules (not going straight to lethal force on non humans is a big one, i admit to having done this in the past) and better nonlethal options (people whine about borg stuns but without some method the borg has little choice but lethal force).
Borg design (ultra specialists) doesn't match their use in game (Harm police).

Most players have no nonlethal way of fighting the Borg, and saying they should run if they can't stun it and ask for a lockdown (that its ai can reverse) is artificial gameplay rules. I agree that by pressing that attack you become more of a target but most borgs will chase you down if the human isn't dying so running just isn't an option against TRAY_BOT and D.O.O.R.C.R.U.S.H. You cant punish an Asimov Borg for following its laws is far too broad a rule, it was originally intended to stop people blowing borgs for obeying orders (again this has happened to me).

I think the solution is a borg combat overhaul foucused around non lethal force. Add an explicit reminder that Borgs seek to prevent harm, not punish past harm and that lethal force against nonhumans should be reserved for the inherently harmful(like wildlife or things that kill humans for power, food, or goals).

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:48 pm**

The main harm prevention tool the silicons had was the secborg but the player population cant handle it it seems.

Make the PK module actually useful, give every borg some sort of harm prevention tool.

namely PREVENTION, maybe some sort of protective stasis I dont know. Frankly the short period of time when secborgs were re-enabled on bagil was the most effective Ive felt at actually preventing harm.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:46 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:Make the PK module actually usefu.

PK module's very intention is to be a joke, aimed at secborgbabies.

Posted: **Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:04 pm**

InsaneHyena wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:Make the PK module actually usefu.
PK module's very intention is to be a joke, aimed at secborgbabies.

a joke that has grown very, very stale.

at a certain point a joke by a few coders put into the game at the expense of gameplay needs to end.

now they need to actually act like a decent game designer and fix the problem that the joke caused.

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:48 am**

nah, it's funnier as a joke

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:29 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:the problem that the joke caused.

what problem

Posted: **Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:14 pm**

feem wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:the problem that the joke caused.
what problem

The sudden drop in power of the silicons as mediators between the conflict between antagonists and security, as well as the role of cyborgs as powerful specialists who are more effective than human players at the cost of both versatility and freedom. Also the subsequent de-valuing of important traitor items like the AI detector and hacked law boards.

At the moment cyborgs are a bit ineffective at stopping both antagonists and security from going a bit hog wild on the murder, so why give them laws in the first place? If they are going to be as powerful as human players why not just give them normal escalation rules or remove the "must prevent harm from happening" part of law 1 similar to what goonstation does.

Posted: **Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:27 pm**

Dr_bee wrote:
feem wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:the problem that the joke caused.
what problem
The sudden drop in power of the silicons as mediators between the conflict between antagonists and security, as well as the role of cyborgs as powerful specialists who are more effective than human players at the cost of both versatility and freedom. Also the subsequent de-valuing of important traitor items like the AI detector and hacked law boards.

At the moment cyborgs are a bit ineffective at stopping both antagonists and security from going a bit hog wild on the murder, so why give them laws in the first place? If they are going to be as powerful as human players why not just give them normal escalation rules or remove the "must prevent harm from happening" part of law 1 similar to what goonstation does.

you know the whole reason secborgs were removed is because some people didnt like silicons being an effective force vs security that was capable of acting independently from Captain Taser and complained ad infinitium

Posted: **Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:29 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
feem wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:the problem that the joke caused.
what problem
The sudden drop in power of the silicons as mediators between the conflict between antagonists and security, as well as the role of cyborgs as powerful specialists who are more effective than human players at the cost of both versatility and freedom. Also the subsequent de-valuing of important traitor items like the AI detector and hacked law boards.

At the moment cyborgs are a bit ineffective at stopping both antagonists and security from going a bit hog wild on the murder, so why give them laws in the first place? If they are going to be as powerful as human players why not just give them normal escalation rules or remove the "must prevent harm from happening" part of law 1 similar to what goonstation does.
you know the whole reason secborgs were removed is because some people didnt like silicons being an effective force vs security that was capable of acting independently from Captain Taser and complained ad infinitium

Lolno, secborgs cucked antags 3 orders of magnitude more than they cucked security.

Posted: **Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:36 pm**

CPTANT wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:
feem wrote:
Dr_bee wrote:the problem that the joke caused.
what problem
The sudden drop in power of the silicons as mediators between the conflict between antagonists and security, as well as the role of cyborgs as powerful specialists who are more effective than human players at the cost of both versatility and freedom. Also the subsequent de-valuing of important traitor items like the AI detector and hacked law boards.

At the moment cyborgs are a bit ineffective at stopping both antagonists and security from going a bit hog wild on the murder, so why give them laws in the first place? If they are going to be as powerful as human players why not just give them normal escalation rules or remove the "must prevent harm from happening" part of law 1 similar to what goonstation does.
you know the whole reason secborgs were removed is because some people didnt like silicons being an effective force vs security that was capable of acting independently from Captain Taser and complained ad infinitium
Lolno, secborgs cucked antags 3 orders of magnitude more than they cucked security.

Lolno, antags couldn't get gud despite everyone of them having a cheap EMP option.

Posted: **Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:16 pm**

>be me
>home, ready to rest and relax
>play my favourite 2d space terrorism simulator
>pick 'cyborg', which is meant to be a servant role designed around preventing harm so i can instead take the module that engages in combat and conflict
>become immune to a majority of the game's combat tactics by virtue of being a silicon and be unfun for everyone except the supercop who gets to play the beefed up security officer immune to stuns aka secborg
>toe the line constantly as a result of you being the strongest thing in a tight power scale of the games 'meta' due to the nature of silicon laws being subjective due to everyone interpreting them being human at the end of the day
>continually ruin gamemodes due to an overwhelming majority of antags not having tools against you(fuck you I'm ignoring recent things like cheap emp kits and implants and ling aoe emp)
>this leads to my favourite role being removed as a result of being horrific when it comes to the shitstorm it brews of balance, policy discussions, and and admin rulings
>still post petty remarks and creep up in anything silicon related about needing secborgs for being a neutral 3rd party mediator and to buff up ai strength when in every single server and setting secborgs end up acting like security officers on crack
>results in every single silicon related thread even if not on the topic of secborgs to turn into another stupid argument about secborgs and silicon strength that will result in nothing being changed and people being angry because you want to run around and play as a stun immune infinite taser double health security officer immune to all stuns except for flashes and a niche weakness to EMPs

Truly the most intelagent posts on the forums

Though i think the general thread was already discussed on the point of borgs being innocent unless you have an explicitly good reason (lizard being attacked by the AI after you stop a traitor murderboning for killing the traitor) unless i'm wrong then oops.

/tg/Station 13

Killing borgs for following laws

Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws

Re: Killing borgs for following laws