/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Sili ... .29_Policy
half the page is silicon policy
we have an unironic policy discussion up right now debating the wording of 2.1.6.5

are you fucking kidding me

discuss what can be done to cut down on silicon policy bloat to get it down to the same size as "Main Rules - read these if nothing else"

WarbossLincoln wrote:This whole conversation is as verbose as silicon policy itself. I guess it's a symptom of people being dumb or assholes

No, it almost has to be this way. It's a discussion about a very verbose, complicated thing.
So yes, of course you should expect wordy posts. Of course there will be rules-lawyering (fuck I hope I did get the right meaning of that word or somebody is going to go off on my choice of words again) if you want to get rid of rules-lawyering. Call me an autist if you want, I don't care.
Posting one-liners should be seen as dumb or dickish, if you actually want to have a discussion.
Emphasis on the word discussion - it's not a debate. There's not going to be a jury that is going to say you were right or wrong or that you have won or lost.
Bring up points and if you see bad points, bring up an argument why you think it is bad.
If you cannot follow, ask. It's super fucking simple once one leaves the whole "I MUST WIN THE ARGUMENT" attitude out of it (yeah dont bother trying to use this 'against' me, there is no 'against' anyone as far I am concerned when it comes to a discussion.).

WarbossLincoln wrote: I play AI most rounds that I'm not just being annoying as an assistant and I barely know the long ass silicon policy or policy rulings.

I don't think about silicon policy when playing AI either. I bet nobody does.
Yet the silicon policy is 'ass long'.
The whole point of this thread is why people think we need silicon policy to be like this.

Silicon policy is legit just rule precedents and your rights. It's not hard to understand, the only people making a meal of it I've seen are people who don't even play silicon.

I can boil down the basics of Asimov's silicon policy into a list right now in no particular order:

• 1. You answer to your laws and your master AI, if applicable, and in that order. You are not a member of the crew and are only aligned with them by familiarity.
• 2. Don't kill non-Humans roundstart without a good reason. Being ordered to counts as a good reason.
• 3. Follow reasonable orders as they are given to you. You can follow the spirit or the letter of the order but don't be inconsistent about it.
  3.1 Reasonable is something you could accomplish in a feasible amount of time that does not violate your Laws.
• 4. You can deny access to the Upload, AI core, Armoury, Atmospherics and Toxins given probable cause under Law 1.
  4.1 Probable cause can include, but is not limited to: Being a known antagonist, being witnesses harming in the past, being covered in blood or in possession of antagonist equipment and not having access to that area.
• 5. Whenever you receive a custom, freeform law, you are free to interpret it as you wish (within reason) but once you have interpreted it a particular way - you have to stick with that interpretation.
• 6. You must follow Laws in chronological order with Laws lower in integer and higher in sequence taking precedence.
  6.1 Antagonist silicons, such as malfunctioning AIs, are exempt from their Laws.
• 7. Action Laws (Laws that state what you can and cannot do) only conflict with other action laws. Definition Laws (Laws that define what something is or is not) only conflict with other definition Laws. Example: if you receive a fourth Law that says "Only X is Human", it cannot be overridden with a Law 2 order.
• 8. Harm is all of the following: any damage type that deals brute/burn/toxin/oxy/clone/brain damage, the loss of Human status whilst under Asimov and the immediate or very likely threat of any of the previous definitions. Releasing a prisoner from the Prison Wing without authorisation from the relevant authority can also be considered a violation of Law 1.
• 9. Only living, non-mutant members of homo sapiens are Human. Hulks are to be considered mutants until the loss of this condition.
• 10. In the event of conflicting orders, you may choose how to resolve the conflict but you must be consistent in this ruling. For example, if you choose to resolve the conflict via the chain of command, you must always follow orders using it whenever receiving orders from conflicting Humans.

iamgoofball wrote:It's almost like Asimov was written specifically to create conflict for a fiction novel and not for actual fucking use which is why we repeat this shit nonstop

The only reason the AI even has laws is for the epic pop science reference to Asimov's works

Spoiler:

removd laws, make the AI a computer deskjob controlled by a human, wow whoa it suddenly works with vanilla rules

+1 man do I wish there was a short settings doc on the purpose of the AI and that we could also play within that understanding without shitting the bed. I'm no exception though I am trying to do better.

Ignore: Should we even discuss alternatives to asimov (or the AI being bound by laws in general) in this thread or would that be a bit out of scope?
This thread can be used for that: It's time to fix Asimov

Also reposting proposed changes or important points for anyone only just tuning in:
Slim policies draft by WarbossLincoln
Existing policies in need of modification or removal by MalkevinMalkraz
Concise policies draft by Anonmare
Comment on how a lot of policies are FAQs by beesting
Ban me by oranges
Well written, neutral insight by Arianya
Even goof makes a valid point
Current policies may just be a relic of the golden age of powerful silicons by Davidchan
Policies are inconsistent, over-engineered and can restrain the silicons too much by Incomptinence
What the boss thinks by MrStonedOne
Good faith does not work with silicons, removing policies will enable shitters by subject217
The idea of silicons is bad itself by Gamarr

Actionb wrote: No need to reinvent the wheel. Parts of the policies are practically headmin rulings already. So one could just transfer those to the headmin decision page - which is pretty much a collection of precedents. Very fitting for edge case policies that are precedents themselves, if you ask me.

That page gets literally ignored by admins.

This has been brought up before, both as a meme and seriously, but maybe we should consider ditching asimov for an alternative lawset as the default. One that encourages less autism. It's an ss13 classic but it might not be right for tg.

Edit: Or remove the inaction clause of law 1. A ton of shitty silicon behavior is loosely justified by law 1.