/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Currently killing yourself at roundstart as an assistant or as an unimportant role is allowed.
If you have a reason to go of course this is fine and can be provided, this is strictly for no reason kill yourself and leave shit. (Leaving or disconnecting is effectively the same thing too here)

Alex Crimson wrote:How about you stop enabling jobs if you dont want to do them? If you do not want to play Sec, just disable it in your preferences. Unless that old bug is still around where you would get forced to play jobs you didnt select, but im sure that was fixed a long time ago.

He probably has the "Get random job if preferences unavailable" option toggled.

If I have to quit playing, I have to quit playing. I'm not going to stick around because some fat neckbeard across the world wants me to virtual ERP with him for 30 minutes even if it's not fun for me.

Forcing someone to do something makes it not-fun. We want players to have fun. This is the opposite of fun. Please go back to your holes you crawled out of.

iamgoofball wrote:If I have to quit playing, I have to quit playing. I'm not going to stick around because some fat neckbeard across the world wants me to virtual ERP with him for 30 minutes even if it's not fun for me.

Forcing someone to do something makes it not-fun. We want players to have fun. This is the opposite of fun. Please go back to your holes you crawled out of.

What are you even talking about? Really, i have no idea where you are pulling these ideas from. Nobody is trying to "force" you to play anything. Are you the kind of person that regularly suicides when they get a job they do not want? Why do you have your game preferences set up in such a way?

lzimann wrote:

Alex Crimson wrote:How about you stop enabling jobs if you dont want to do them? If you do not want to play Sec, just disable it in your preferences. Unless that old bug is still around where you would get forced to play jobs you didnt select, but im sure that was fixed a long time ago.

He probably has the "Get random job if preferences unavailable" option toggled.

why is that the default option anyway

is it even the default? It's been a while since I dicked with character setup.

Problem with game mechanics that alot of jobs don't have that much to do/broken shit to do.
Obviously there are going to be jobs that some people hate but others like, as is human nature, but we need diversity.
If people want to roundstart combat as nonantag, miner is a good role, but we always need more content for it.

More content for all the jobs would be great, but its a big job so i would feel bad asking the coders to do all that. Punishing selfish people who random job > suicide seems like a much easier and effective option. Just having the policy and announcing it would stop most people.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have an antag feature freeze for awhile. Keep fixing bugs and doing balance changes of existing antag stuff, but as far as new content maybe the devs should focus on regular crew jobs for awhile.

ShadowDimentio wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I'd like to see security players given the same treatment as heads of staff who suicide at round start.

>Get rolled into a job you hate because you wanted to be clown along with everyone else
>Suicide because security is suffering
>Get banned because ??????

G e n i u s

Get banned because you literally can't even deal with playing a role so much so you'd rather sit out the round and complain in deadchat that you didn't get the job role you like even though you selected in your preferences or for some reason still have get random job if unavailable or you've just got one single job type set to high with nothing else and that job slot is clown so you have a pretty damn low chance of getting that job slot as its just one person.
Geni-ass

cmspano wrote:I don't think it would be a bad idea to have an antag feature freeze for awhile. Keep fixing bugs and doing balance changes of existing antag stuff, but as far as new content maybe the devs should focus on regular crew jobs for awhile.

Feature Freezes don't incentivize people to do different things, just put other things they want to do on hold. Just let people get the features they want to do out of the way instead of trying to force them to do something they don't like (just like why people suicide roundstart)

peoplearestrange wrote:Get banned because you literally can't even deal with playing a role so much so you'd rather sit out the round and complain in deadchat that you didn't get the job role you like even though you selected in your preferences or for some reason still have get random job if unavailable or you've just got one single job type set to high with nothing else and that job slot is clown so you have a pretty damn low chance of getting that job slot as its just one person.
Geni-ass

>Projecting this hard

G E N I U S

iamgoofball wrote:If I have to quit playing, I have to quit playing. I'm not going to stick around because some fat neckbeard across the world wants me to virtual ERP with him for 30 minutes even if it's not fun for me.

Forcing someone to do something makes it not-fun. We want players to have fun. This is the opposite of fun. Please go back to your holes you crawled out of.

>you should only play a game as long as its fun

This is true for regular games that are fun, but our game is set up so that only a certain subset of randomly selected players are allowed to have fun each round, and the social contract requires that you be their punching bag for an hour so that they'll stick around and be yours when your turn as antag comes up.

It's why games like dota have low priority for abandons.

ShadowDimentio wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I'd like to see security players given the same treatment as heads of staff who suicide at round start.

>Get rolled into a job you hate because you wanted to be clown along with everyone else
>Suicide because security is suffering
>Get banned because ??????

G e n i u s

TheNightingale wrote:Observe at roundstart, wait three minutes, check the orbit list for anyone who's dead; if they're a suicide, note. Second time, antagban.
"But then they'll go braindead!"
Ban those ones too. Ban everyone until they get the message.

>Join the round
>Suddenly mom/work/your cat calls and needs something
>Have to leave
>Come back to be banned because you went braindead

G E N I U S

>ahelp that you dont want to play/have to leave

>leave

Woah... causes ones mind to ponder

Bing bam boom a solution that doesn't require more policy vomit

>admins ever enforcing this policy

no chance

What makes you say that? Is there something about it that makes it hard to enforce? Simply warning repeat suiciders would be enough to stop most people.

Because they already are bad at enforcing the head suicide rule

B A N N E D
F O R
P O O P I N G

Kor wrote: It's why games like dota have low priority for abandons.

Should we set up a low/no-priority antag system for those that abandon the round and refuse to be the punching bag?

if we as the developers cannot make our game fun, penalizing players for not staying to not-have-fun is not the fix

J_Madison wrote:

Kor wrote: It's why games like dota have low priority for abandons.

Should we set up a low/no-priority antag system for those that abandon the round and refuse to be the punching bag?

iamgoofball wrote:if we as the developers cannot make our game fun, penalizing players for not staying to not-have-fun is not the fix

I keep fucking telling everybody mobas are no-fun garbage but thanks goofball for proving it.

It's a never ending cycle;

X player plays only for antag.
X player doesn't get antag, doesn't play, or tries to make the round shorter.
Y player gets antag, plays conservatively.
Y player suffers from X player purposely trying to degrade the round.
Round ends.
X player gets antag.
X player uses this to affect the round by liberally affecting everyone's experience.
Y player suffers from X player affecting the round.

It's an endless cycle where one bad apple ruins them all because "if I don't get antag the round ends now, and I don't contribute".

The proposed solution is to ban or massively reduce the rates of antag selection for non-contributing players until they contribute. This breaks part of the cycle.

And there would be leeway and room for players that couldn't contribute due to means outside of their control.

Saegrimr wrote:

J_Madison wrote:

Kor wrote: It's why games like dota have low priority for abandons.

Should we set up a low/no-priority antag system for those that abandon the round and refuse to be the punching bag?

iamgoofball wrote:if we as the developers cannot make our game fun, penalizing players for not staying to not-have-fun is not the fix

I keep fucking telling everybody mobas are no-fun garbage but thanks goofball for proving it.

It's why I quit mobas yeah. Didn't like being held hostage by a videogame.

J_Madison wrote:It's a never ending cycle;

X player plays only for antag.
X player doesn't get antag, doesn't play, or tries to make the round shorter.
Y player gets antag, plays conservatively.
Y player suffers from X player purposely trying to degrade the round.
Round ends.
X player gets antag.
X player uses this to affect the round by liberally affecting everyone's experience.
Y player suffers from X player affecting the round.

It's an endless cycle where one bad apple ruins them all because "if I don't get antag the round ends now, and I don't contribute".

The proposed solution is to ban or massively reduce the rates of antag selection for non-contributing players until they contribute. This breaks part of the cycle.

And there would be leeway and room for players that couldn't contribute due to means outside of their control.

This is exactly right, that's why people liked lifeweb, you got to essentially choose to be antag, which made it not a special occasion, so people would want to be on both the antag and the loyal sides.

Lifeweb is simply two opossing forces, and nothing works as intended. Which is fine in LW because no one expects it to, its not linked to any kinda meme or reality. SS13 is too much of a trope to not have expectations into how roles work.
OR rather, the game we currently have in front of us has set up its own world and set of rules, its not dependant on game mechanics as much as lifeweb or some other variations of code that some ss13 servers run.
If you wanted the experience to be similar to lifeweb your going to have to make the whole game a lot less text RP and want the interactions to come from unavoidable situations.

I mean I never played lifeweb I'm only going off what I heard

Lifeweb still has full-on game mode antags. There is just nothing stopping you from going on a murder spree except your own conscience. People on LW can be surprisingly nice people, for the most part. Ive even seen Dante on there a few times and he hasnt brutally murdered me. The roundstart suicides on there are also pretty much non-existent.

DOTA punishes abandons because quitting due to a bad situation screws over your team. Its not like people only abandoned games in completely hopeless situations. The system was added because players were quitting over anything and everything. There should be a punishment for that kind of player.

Like i said, i do not think having a system like that here would help much. What id like to see is people realising how selfish it is to constantly antag roll and suicide. However only in non-Assistant jobs. If they want to continue their tator lottery as an Assistant, i do not see the harm. My problem is when they are doing it in jobs roles that other people actually want to play. I do not see how stopping this would be unreasonable or "force" you to play the game.

Bawhoppennn wrote:I mean I never played lifeweb I'm only going off what I heard

Lifeweb was popular because it wasn't ss13.
It had minimal admin interaction, antagonist ambiguity, anti-munchkin mindset, fresh content, unique mechanics, ability to respawn, list goes on.

To compare an open source low RP ss13, against closed source, high RP lifeweb isn't fair.

The playerbase mindset is completely different, mechanically you couldn't powergame effectively, the game was made for you interact, explore, die, have fun. Essentially it's a completely different game.

Lifeweb was fun because you were made to feel pain. Lifeweb was fun because everyone could have antagonist urges. Lifeweb made suiciding >because I'm not Cerberus (((( unfun.

Lifeweb was build around making players think outside the box instead of doing the same shit expecting a different experience. The content was made to cull undesirable players.

Alex Crimson wrote:What id like to see is people realising how selfish it is to constantly antag roll and suicide. However only in non-Assistant jobs. If they want to continue their tator lottery as an Assistant, i do not see the harm. My problem is when they are doing it in jobs roles that other people actually want to play. I do not see how stopping this would be unreasonable or "force" you to play the game.

That's only if they suicide. And the rate of which suicides occur means 10% of the server pop doesn't play.
When they don't suicide, I've seen players actively fuck with the round to shorten it or actively ruin other antagonists experience because "if I don't get fun, nobody does". It's a problem that can only be solved by solving the player problem.

Just going to throw in two fairly exceptional cases of traitor-or-suicide: Ronald Jerome, and Dante Smith. Both characters belonged to players who for a chunk of time would suicide if they didn't get an antagonist role.

Ronald Jerome did the exact same thing as a traitor every single game. He'd rush for a space suit, break into tech storage for an AI upload board, subvert the AI and go on a killing rampage. Back when we had cloaking devices, he'd take a cloak and e-bow and just straight out murderbone. He was completely predictable, down to the point with a little bit of meta you could follow his movements without trying. Knowing helped a bit, but was by no means a ticket to victory or even survival. He was often Station Engineer when he suicided, and did so in his area.

Dante Smith would change tactics over periods of time, but would do the same thing for a while. At one point he would emag a cyborg roundstart, get it to quietly let him into the AI upload and then one-human the AI before even 5 minutes had passed. He was fairly predictable, but incredibly robust and very difficult to take down alone. If he was outed by an AI that was slow to read their new laws or someone saw before he could slip in, he often failed, but made a massive mess doing so. Other times he'd rampage in a mech, or straight out murderbone. He also made one of the most competent security staff the station had ever seen when not a traitor.

And both of them were (mostly) fun to play with.

They were like a corny comic villain, easy to predict but fairly troublesome nevertheless. They never committed suicide in head positions (except late into a peaceful round, because who wouldn't, or if they had to leave).

I think that suiciding at round start is, as Kor said, a symptom and not the problem itself. From the sounds of it admins are having to babysit players more to make sure that they are behaving rather than being able to nurture fun elements throughout a round, causing a cycle of boring rounds breeding more delinquents.

Amusingly both of those players are banned. Don't forget Sticky "Steiner not braindead? Red alert for 'random' search" Mayhem.

Coming up with rules for this would be both obtuse and probably tyrannical. Along with vague definitions like "doing it too much". Probably better to let admins consider giving warning and notes on people and if they really feel a specific player is hurting the server after being warned they can rule 0 them.

Aside from that the idea of loosening the rules on what's IC and what's an OOC issue might help some people feel like they can create some drama without being an antag and not have to worry as much about getting slapped by an admin.

cmspano wrote:Coming up with rules for this would be both obtuse and probably tyrannical. Along with vague definitions like "doing it too much". Probably better to let admins consider giving warning and notes on people and if they really feel a specific player is hurting the server after being warned they can rule 0 them.

Thing is, the rule 0 system is what we currently use. Admins always say things like "just let us know and we will deal with it". Its great that they want to handle the individual cases of antag rolling suiciders, but its not affecting the majority. As long as its an unofficial rule thats enforced case-by-case, nobody is going to take it seriously. We need an actual rule and announcement, like when ERP was banned. Its the only way people are going to get the message.

i have the right to decide not to play the game and you can't take it from me

iamgoofball wrote:i have the right to decide not to play the game and you can't take it from me

Nobody's saying you can't decide not to play the game. We're saying that if you decide not to play the game after you've already started playing the game, you won't be able to play some of the game in future.

It's like an Olympic runner, about to start a race. The runner can walk away and give up; they have the right to do that. Nobody's forcing the runner to run. If they walk away a lot, they won't be allowed to run in the Olympics again.

iamgoofball wrote:i have the right to decide not to play the game and you can't take it from me

You don't have to play; that's your right to play.

But it's not your right to have a slice of the cake of fun.
You don't want to do the spelling bee?
You don't have to. You also don't have any right to the trophy or recognition either.

Welcome to the tontine; if you don't offer money to the tontine, you don't get to take out of the tontine.

I dont know what the fuck a tontine is but he is right. If players are not willing to play the game and be candy glass for the tators to jump through, then why should they get the other half of the game? Something something grief lottery


EDIT: At the same time this is basically impossible to enforce except in very obvious cases of abuse or when people admit to it, and bans are handed out in both cases

Well, many of the rules we have are impossible to enforce if the player has half a brain and makes an effort to be subtle. Just the fact the rules are there act as a deterrent. Then there are the obvious suiciders that immediately suicide within a few minutes of the round starting. I dont think its fair to expect the admins to catch any and every rule breaker.

I think the biggest problem is how most players already played for 1/2+ years and all the jobs are already boring so they just roll for antag. Perhaps we should renew the jobs instead of banning people for being tired of them. Yes, change is hard and people will complain(including me), but sometimes it is necessary.

I mean that sounds great, but it would require an insane amount of effort from the coders. A lot of jobs would need a lot of work.

Anyways, that isnt the issue. Players could antag roll as much as they want as Assistants, but they choose to take up actual jobs slots instead. Its not hard to just antag roll as an Assistant then ask the HoP for a job change. People are just selfish. Even if you updated all the jobs, the selfish players are still going to shit all over that effort and continue to suicide.

lzimann wrote:I think the biggest problem is how most players already played for 1/2+ years and all the jobs are already boring so they just roll for antag. Perhaps we should renew the jobs instead of banning people for being tired of them. Yes, change is hard and people will complain(including me), but sometimes it is necessary.

This is why I've played a lot of botany recently, because the genetic modification makes it really interesting (And griefy but shh)

Wyzack wrote:I dont know what the fuck a tontine is but he is right. If players are not willing to play the game and be candy glass for the tators to jump through, then why should they get the other half of the game? Something something grief lottery


EDIT: At the same time this is basically impossible to enforce except in very obvious cases of abuse or when people admit to it, and bans are handed out in both cases

It would be easily enforced with a little bit of coder help. All that is needed is some extra logging and let admins consult a player's suicide/afk stats.

i'm going to add a button that makes your character disappear, any antags with you as an objective get it re-rolled to someone else with notification, and it re-opens your slot

you have no more excuses to bitch about people deciding they dont want to play the round

just put bay/polaris cryopods 'cause that's literally the reason they have them (besides their rounds lasting six fucking hours)

iamgoofball wrote:i'm going to add a button that makes your character disappear, any antags with you as an objective get it re-rolled to someone else with notification, and it re-opens your slot

you have no more excuses to bitch about people deciding they dont want to play the round

>break all the hop windows, smash more open to space
>security are after me
>poof out of existance

To be fair, you can fling yourself into space and go braindead now with much the same effect.

edit: I'd be more concerned about someone mashing the ghost button the moment someone draws an esword on them, leaving the traitor with a completely different target to kill somewhere else on the station, and their cover already blown.

Then do a Planetside 2 and put this thing on cooldown.
Or pull a Bay and make there be four static machines on the entire station that can do this.
Or better yet, just don't do it at all.

Or just have someone being gibbed reset their slot for latejoiners and re-add oxygen tank gibbing.

I don't think I've ever committed suicide to leave the round. I mean, I have but in the Bryce Pax way y'know? It's way more interesting.

add a departures shuttle that lets unimportant (but unessential) spessmen "punch out"

recycle the job, non-standard gear into a lost-and-found, or better, categorized capsules

add fun lore like the ship flying into a blast furnace

then we can talk about banning suishits

Or maybe just have the crematorium and gibber do that.

pretend stuffing people into furnaces and grindy mechanisms to be squelched into a pulp is a godawful practice for both courtesy and immersion

IcePacks wrote:add a departures shuttle that lets unimportant (but unessential) spessmen "punch out"

recycle the job, non-standard gear into a lost-and-found, or better, categorized capsules

add fun lore like the ship flying into a blast furnace

then we can talk about banning suishits

That... that actually be a nice idea...
I might try that for a few rounds with admin trickery.