/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Summarily where do admins stand about removing the tails (lizards & cats) and ears of specific races?

Q: When it is applied in punishment (catperson broke the law or abused their status as a non-human)

Q: Is mass converting catpeople to humans irreversibly (tails & ears destroyed after in crematorium) acceptable if they are deemed a risk/unfavorable by command, sec & AI?

Q: Is setting laws to target & convert when applicable non-humans to humans ok? This would mean anything from medical borgs syringing in human xenobio mutagen to surgically removing catpeople parts.

Removing lizard tails i see as inconsequential because essentially they are no less a lizard for not having it as much as they are whilst having it, and it often is favorable for lizards to ditch the tail. In catpeople its a entirely different kettle of fish in that they literally change states dependent on what areas of them is cut off.

So i pose this to you all.

I should re-add UI+UE syringes

imblyings wrote:cut it out

Good to see ausops is a supporter of my cause.

imblyings wrote:May as well ask why people drag away arrested people from officers. It seems a lot worse than tail removal, especially given the active and dangerous effort required to re-arrest if the arrested guy is an antag.

Both situations are bad, and both situations should not occur without good reasoning behind it. It becomes an OOC issue when it is repeated shift after shift, a-la robustin as of late.

And chances are, whoever is doing it. Is doing it to be a dick. I can't think of many other reasons.

Oldman Robustin wrote:As for the argument "well its harder to replace liz tails than shaved heads", since when did we take appearance so seriously here and why would it ever be bannable to fuck with someone's appearance. Last night a non-antag viro released a Revitiligo virus for shits and giggles, thats just what SS13 is... admins should never be involved in "SO AND SO MADE ME LOOK DIFFERENT THAN I WANTED TO".

Then they should be ICly Lynched by the affected parties/crew. And to my understanding, that is in-fact how it is handled. But it should also be handled by admins if a clear pattern is established.

Regardless, they are still a dick for doing it. Unless they have reasoning for it. Antag, or the like.

Your excuses to grief people and try to claim innocence are pathetic, dude.

dude if we banned people for griefing and being a dick we might as well remove the jail cells and perma/gulag

It's like you can't even read or understand the issue with persistent shitty behavior, or something.

Don't be an ass, what does it even get you? Nothing. Except a Ban and a stick up your ass about it. What's the point. Stop being an ass.

It's not hard.

iamgoofball wrote:Cats are a furry fetish

Insightful as ever, goof.

iamgoofball wrote:dude if we banned people for griefing and being a dick we might as well remove the jail cells and perma/gulag

You might as well remove most of the game.

I think a more relevant question rather than "is it ok to remove tails" would be "is it IC issue when you get put in the brig/permabrig/gulag for resisting amputation". Or for resisting/evading arrest when the meme captain/hos sends out the usual APB to arrest all lizards who talk in lizard tongue, wag their tails and so on. Because I can assure you that you're not going to lose "just 4 minutes of your round" when you are set on arrest after you said a single sentence in draconic on common radio.

it being harder to replace lizard tails is a bug, not a feature, unfortunately I have yet to figure out what causes the bug and I have zero time to code lately

I think Grazyn raises an excellent point here, and it speaks to the distinction between some rando going around and doing shit and a head/officer/someone with power urging others to do shit or doing shit themselves.

It needs to be part of the conversation that the person defending themselves from "lol it's just a prank" can in fact defend themselves. If you have a HoS or Captain going after lizards or telling people to go after lizards and backing the ones who do, then you run into situations where:

1) Due to no fault or effort of their own, certain players are targeted by a non-antag entrusted with the safety of the crew,
2) ...on the whim of that other player, to be "just a prank,"
3) ...which the targeted player has no choice but to sit down and take it or defend themselves against it,
4) ...wherein self-defense can very likely become a death sentence or at least a way of taking themselves out of the round.

That's a specific situation which is NOT protected under "lol it's just a prank."

I think the quick and dirty here is:

If you can reasonably be dunked ICly for what you've done, if that dunking won't severely and negatively impact the game (i.e. you aren't that important), or if that dunking is, or your prank is, hilarious, then you may not be explicitly violating rule 1, and you may have some protections under rule 10.

But if you create a new situation in which, due to your power, your whim and/or prank either necessarily deprives other players of their round, or creates a situation in which any defense, retribution, or recompense for what you've done -- due to no fault of their own -- will result in them being deprived of their round, then you are abusing that power and this is very likely a violation of rule 1.

super tl;dr:

If you repeatedly or hardcore fuck with people just to fuck with them, it needs to be reasonable for them to be able to fuck with you back, or you've fucked up.

captain sawrge wrote:Also trying to hide behind "they could resolve it ICly" when you are the captain and have an entire sec force behind you as well as several very dangerous weapons and powerful armor does not really work. The average player would be forfeiting their entire round just to make the gamble of taking you out and the most likely outcome is you kill/permabrig them and even if they succeed they are now on the run and don't get to continue their round.

Sorta like when a det unloads half their clip on you for just doing your job?

iamgoofball wrote:dude if we banned people for griefing and being a dick we might as well remove the jail cells and perma/gulag

hi goof when did you last play an actual round looking forward to your reply yours sincerely

feem wrote: If you can reasonably be dunked ICly for what you've done, if that dunking won't severely and negatively impact the game (i.e. you aren't that important), or if that dunking is, or your prank is, hilarious, then you may not be explicitly violating rule 1, and you may have some protections under rule 10.

But if you create a new situation in which, due to your power, your whim and/or prank either necessarily deprives other players of their round, or creates a situation in which any defense, retribution, or recompense for what you've done -- due to no fault of their own -- will result in them being deprived of their round, then you are abusing that power and this is very likely a violation of rule 1.

super tl;dr:

If you repeatedly or hardcore fuck with people just to fuck with them, it needs to be reasonable for them to be able to fuck with you back, or you've fucked up.

This is basically my stance on it, if fucking with you in a similar or escalated manner would result in that persons permaing/death/etc from other crew members simply due to your job then you're being a dick and you deserve the ban you get.

No one is going to execute you over kicking the clown's shit in for cutting off your tail, all of sec will rain down on you if you do the same to the Cap or HoS for issuing a "cut off the ligger's tails lmao" order

How about instead of presuming how incredibly complex power dynamics will play out, you just let them play out before deciding if it's bankable based on the nuances of the situation.

After I made my announcement I could've ordered security to detain all mutants and to execute any who lay a hand on me. Instead i was chill about it, sat and chatted with multiple catgirls about my offer, hoping they would trade their tail to me directly, debating whether the QM should be immune to my offer or not, and when the catchaplain slipped me with a clown PDA I didn't REEEEEE for help or backup, I simply said "ohno" and accepted my fate... which turned out to be a polite conversation about the clown being unrobust.

That's a far cry from declaring nonhuman valid, hunting them down, and then killing the ones who fight back with the support of a full sec team.

It's so frustrating to make all those efforts NOT to ruin anyone's round just to have it ignored because hypothetically I could have also tried to commit genocide.

Removing tails is a process that takes one second longer than shaving and has the same impact on your round, trying to make it more than that just relies on shitty strawmen.

The captain has a responsibility to stay alive and your plan was to get lynched

Lazengann wrote:The captain has a responsibility to stay alive and your plan was to get lynched

To be fair to Robustin, this isn't unusual.

the problem is that just because you're not a shithead that screams REEEEEE the instant someone lays a finger on them and dooms whoever dares fight back to spending the rest of the round in hiding, there are captains out there that are, a hell of a lot of them in fact, which makes it a fucking frustrating experience for people who really do want to dunk a shitty captain/sec officer for IC reasons because they have no way of knowing whether you're a chill guy who's just messing around and prepared to take your lumps or whether you're one of those assholes who wants to fuck with people and ruin their day if they fuck with them back

the obvious solution is just to ban the latter group for killbaiting but you can't tell the difference until they actually do kill someone "in self defence".

Oldman Robustin wrote:snip

Theres no strawmen or conjecture about it. If I, as a sec member, see a assistant or a chemist or really anyone walk up to my boss or the captain and start trying to lynch them, I'm obligated by RP reasoning, my role's duties and general ambiguous powergaming to stop them.

The fact that you anecdotally did this and no one dunked you isn't really an argument. Sec defacto takes the side of command (less so the non-mindshielded heads) barring extreme circumstances, and memery 'bout tails/ears isn't "extreme" enough to warrant letting greytiders kick the captain to death, considering it releases all access and several weapons into the wild.

"incredibly complex power dynamics"

Oldman, you're a veteran player and know very well how these things play out, so I can only assume you're talking in bad faith.

This is how it usually plays out, assuming that established policies regarding escalation are followed:

>captain/HoS declares open season on lizards/cats because of tails/draconic/existing
>you can ahelp now and be answered "lol ahelping because of tail, grow a thick skin snowflake" "IC issue" (reasonable answer)
>you can resist arrest, treating it like any other escalation scenario
>lose (because they have superior firepower) and end up in perma/gulag/killed
>ahelp and be answered "you decided to go ahead and deal with it IC instead of ahelping, you can't ahelp now just because you've lost" (answer consistent with policy)
>somehow win (by killing cap/hos), your round is now over anyway because security will hunt you down until the end, but hey, at least you can't be banned

Or, you can submit and get your tail cut off without starting any shit. However, this doesn't always work, in the draconic example I was put on arrest for answering in draconic to another lizard who greeted me on radio (and no, nobody had said that this was a crime beforehand), this isn't something you can just deal with by submitting. You end up arrested, with no charge in the records, and have to wait at least 10 minutes in brig while oblivious officers try to figure out why you're on arrest.

Now, whenever I play lizard I automatically assume I will be harassed for no reason in game, I can live with it and even enjoy the dynamics from time to time (it's only annoying when I forget to switch to my human character when I want to play a real round), but I'd rather see it put in policy so that everyone is on the same level. Just make it official that lizards and cats are the "joke races" like the goon clown of yore and anyone can fuck with them with little to no reason. You can always play plasman or fly if you want a different race and no fear of harassment.

I have to wonder how much nuance there is to someone deciding to slip, cuff, and kidnap a non-human to remove their tail as a joke without any previous interaction. That's what I had a problem with. I already said I don't mind losing features as a consquence of something I've done and if you can somehow manage to remove a tail on a slip, then honestly I'd probably be more impressed then anything and suck it up. My main issue is the idea of people FNR kidnapping others and forcing surgery on them.

While we're at it; no it's not the same as cutting their hair. You can replace hair in seconds compared to having to get the limb back and have someone else to put it back on. We also still pretend to be a medium roleplay server, so no a surgical operation isn't really on a similar level of prank as shaving someones head, especially thanks to the technological wonder of mirrors that regrow and style your hair.

When it comes to command level gimmicks, I don't know what happened in Oldman's round so I couldn't really judge it one way or another. I'll just say that I would prefer Captain's chose voluntary/Opt-in gimmicks instead of declearing a free for all on all non-humans.

We also still pretend to be a medium roleplay server

Objectively false

D&B wrote:

We also still pretend to be a medium roleplay server

Objectively false

ohboyherewegoagain

Misread a comment from Feem, sorry Feem.

You are an old player. You know how these things end.
You were around for the shitfest. I'm not even gonna sugarcoat it.

Suck it up and stop being a dick. It's not hard.
You were legitimately dumb for doing it as the Captain and even more-so for continuing as a chemist for various shifts afterwards to "Prove a point".

Oldman, anyone who mains lizard could tell you that yes, this is exactly how it usually plays out. You thinking it was the funniest and original gimmick ever and that you had everything under control doesn't change the fact that it still happens pretty fucking often and it always ends up with lizards/cats having a really bad time, like any other situation where sec is sicced on you when you did nothing at all. It's interesting emergent gameplay the first time it happens, a silly nuisance the second, fucking annoying the third and then it's just "oh it's another I-get-gulaged-for-joining-the-round episode".

Now I understand this reads like a "check your human privilege" rant but seriously, if cats and lizards have to be the butt of every power fantasy of every jmad wannabe, just make it official policy and be done with it.

inb4 "well then remove lizards and cats if they cause so much drama"

Oldman Robustin wrote:

feem wrote:

Lazengann wrote:The captain has a responsibility to stay alive and your plan was to get lynched

To be fair to Robustin, this isn't unusual.

Nothing butters my biscuit like an admin lying and thinking its ok because >forums.

Name the last time I did something as captain that made me valid to lynching. I'm pretty sure it was 2012 when I demanded the halls be filled with chairs and a few minutes later a wizard shows up with a staff of animation.

Also, Oldman valid for lynching is still going to stay alive longer and be more productive than 90% of captains here. As soon as trouble brew I was in the fucking SM chamber getting assblasted by anomalies undoing the CE's sabotage, I nearly died but stopped the meltdown before the CE came back and redid it all. When I set Captain off "NEVER" its always to "HIGH" and its because I have the intention of doing my absolute upmost to keep the station in good condition, this time I threw in a silly gimmick that didn't get anyone killed or thrown in the gulag or whatever. This is why I say judge these incidents based on the outcome and not hypothesizing based on what YOU THINK was going to happen - because for all the posturing of "OH ITS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO END UP WITH _________ HAPPENING", it really doesn't.

Excuse me?

I was saying, to be fair to you, captains often have a plan to get lynched.

I was defending you.

In what twisted world do you live that someone coming in and saying "to be fair to <person> [who is being criticized here], this [behavior of a captain getting themselves lynched or intending to] isn't unusual" requires a retort like that?

Sorry I'm a little on edge after earlier and I read your comment to say that me killbaiting as captain was a common occurrence.

no problem brah

The difference between some random grey/cluwne doing the tail thing and the captain declaring open season is that you can just dunk the singular grey/cluwne in retaliation, while having the captain make an announcement turns every human on the station into a potential enemy. It gives greys a viable reason to break into your workplace to stun you and security is unlikely to help, possibly even being your enemies now. You now also have to worry about antags taking advantage of the free grief opportunity to take you down under the guise of tail removal.

The only effective means of defending yourself after a captain declares open season revolves around either hiding for the rest of the round (ruining your round) or mass-murder (which will probably get you banned). I'd argue that declaring open season for no raisin in a position of power is a form of ban baiting where you force the players to either suck it up and risk death, disappear from the round, or risk getting banned.

Takeguru wrote:

Oldman Robustin wrote:Also amputation refers to removing limbs, tails aren't limbs.

"A limb (from the Old English lim), or extremity, is a jointed, or prehensile (as octopus arms or new world monkey tails), appendage of the human or other animal body."

cat tails arent jointed or prehensile tho

this thread has gone on for four pages

four pages of people asking why they can't be a dick

BUT IT'S DIFFERENT WHEN I DO IT! IT'S FOR LAFFS! AND IT'S JUST SOME HEALTHY RACISM! LOLOLOLOLOL

BESIDES IT'S _ME_ DOING IT, YOU KNOW I'M BETTER THAN THOSE OTHER GUYS

just fucking get it over wit hand lock it

free us from this hell for 3 days before someone posts another fucking thread about it

I agree, people who post threads about ears and tails should be banned.

Still need that super obvious ruling that says "Yes a 6 second harmless procedure to change your characters appearance is not a Rule 1 violation".

Oldman Robustin wrote:Still need that super obvious ruling that says "Yes a 6 second harmless procedure to change your characters appearance is not a Rule 1 violation".

your*

Oldman Robustin wrote:Still need that super obvious ruling that says "Yes a 6 second harmless procedure to change your characters appearance is not a Rule 1 violation".

<--- the point

your head

target practice: 0/10 you missed the point

it's too bad you can't fire your arrows because they're missing the point

etc

I'll make a removal PR for the surgery when I get home, if bans are occurring.

iamgoofball wrote:I'll make a removal PR for the surgery when I get home, if bans are occurring.

Your*

greyshirt stunning you and cutting your tail -> kosher, I'd take that any day of the week

Entire security team set on rounding up lizards/cats for *reason and permaing/killing anyone who resists -> please fuck off

Oldman Robustin wrote:Still need that super obvious ruling that says "Yes a 6 second harmless procedure to change your characters appearance is not a Rule 1 violation".

So we're going with the definition of harmless that's narrowly written as "does not cause your hitpoints values to change" right? That's literally the only way this post isn't full retard.

why can't we all just be friends?

Because the deadliest weapon known to man is a 32x32 sprite with cat ears

So is the ruling that you can run around as a lone person cutting off tails but this opens you to being dunked by your victims?

Nilons wrote:So is the ruling that you can run around as a lone person cutting off tails but this opens you to being dunked by your victims?

Yee

Nilons wrote:So is the ruling that you can run around as a lone person cutting off tails but this opens you to being dunked by your victims?

This was always allowed, it's a much minor grief compared to other kinds of grief that admins let play out IC (e.g. breaking in, stealing stuff, starting fistfights etc.).

It only becomes a problem when there's a mass endeavour from command/sec staff to harass non-humans for literally no reason. If a random greyshirt stuns you and cuts your tail, you can react and no one would bat an eye. Do the same thing to the captain and you're in for a world of pain, even if you don't get banned your round is still virtually over.

OR you can just not act on it at all?

You don't have to escalate it further.

In reality there's no difference between this and the jarek situation. Every member of security up to the captain will vehemently defend other security in most occasions because they know that OOCly security can never be the bad guys.

Fighting back against any sec member will result in your round ruined.

Flies, cats, lizards, humans? Does it even matter? Act shitty against the wrong people on a station and people will band together to stomp your face for stirring trouble.
Stupid. Shit. Just because they are security/command doesn't mean they are removed from the grouping and allowed to be massive cunts.

As for security protecting itself no matter the stupidity of their coworkers, partly true but imo sec players that learn and adapt fall out of this. Because anyone who is anything realizes that the color of a jumpsuit or implants means absolutely nothing. Also just an fyi: security aren't the only dept. that are guilty of this cuntlery. R&D, Cargo, medical I've seen can all be just as shitty on this regard. People stick together for those reasons because it allows them to be shit and there is power in numbers.
People just suck.

Just like in real life

ExcessiveJMadison wrote:OR you can just not act on it at all?

You don't have to escalate it further.

In reality there's no difference between this and the jarek situation. Every member of security up to the captain will vehemently defend other security in most occasions because they know that OOCly security can never be the bad guys.

Fighting back against any sec member will result in your round ruined.

I would rather and usually do inadvertently help antags than sec/command that are being massive cunts. Of course this doesnt mean I trust greyshitters over officers just that if the wardens being a cuck for no reason Ill bust people out of gulag or perma on the DL

edit: also fighting back I rarely see people get permad for, its when they get out of prison and seek revenge/try to raise the crew against security