/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

This used to be rule 3 on all servers back when I first took over as webhost (but not game host)

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rules&oldid=193 wrote:3. This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Being an asshole, who ruins other player's roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a 'play-to-win' style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. Be considerate of other players' experience.

This didn't make it thru a rewrite.

Anti-play2win enforcement used to hold back the tide that is this fucking game when unleashed.

Bring it back.

The way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods. Then hijack came out and that become frowned upon because it was already generally frowned upon to make it harder for antags to honestly achieve their objectives.

(I could have just asked the headmins about doing this, but i'm too high to be disrupting their official discord channel with highdeas, so you get to hear an old man yelling at a cloud a policy thread instead)

edit:

(For the record, pandarsenic in this thread has a better grasp on what this rule originally meant then even I did. They were one of the admin trainers at the time I was a candidate.)

edit2:

Let me break this rule down for you.

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

Be considerate of other players’ experience. - finish off strong with a call to action.


It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:24 am

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:17 am

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

This seems sort of insane to me. A CMO can simply dislike you, and tell you to fuck off his department, and you aren't allowed to break in because it'd violate rule 3?

Yeah. Fuck the GreyTide. If the CMO doesn't want to give you something you can try asking someone else. If he's refusing to let you in for basic treatment, then you can take it up with the Captain. (Or you can tell the admins you might be being metagrudged).

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:24 am

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:17 am

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

This seems sort of insane to me. A CMO can simply dislike you, and tell you to fuck off his department, and you aren't allowed to break in because it'd violate rule 3?

My answer to this would be to ask yourself "Is it possible I will never use this a single time all shift?". If the threat level happens to be 0, you are walking around as an unkillable supersoldier with nothing trying to kill you. Unless you were planning to use it for a guaranteed purpose like cheating a rage cage match or something similar, you shouldn't be gearing up with it before genuine threats to you exist.

I tried to reflect on a time that I have ever actually had fun in this game with someone who is LRP/NRP, but that memory doesn't exist.

Activate it.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:24 am

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:17 am

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

This seems sort of insane to me. A CMO can simply dislike you, and tell you to fuck off his department, and you aren't allowed to break in because it'd violate rule 3?

Yeah dude if you break in for Gamer Gear when someone said "dude don't" and there's no actual threat, especially because you just want to become a katamari of validhunting equipment, that's obnoxious powergaming and honestly it's mostly a dick move to the doctors too

Doctors are well within their rights to get sick of people invading their homes for gamer gear, god knows it happens enough when they're trying to revive people and shit like that

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:24 am

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:17 am

And what if he says no (and also refuses to take your request)?

Then, tough! If a head of staff doesn't want you coming into their department, then what were you going to do before the rule? Break in and get your ass kicked, or hope they're not there?

This seems sort of insane to me. A CMO can simply dislike you, and tell you to fuck off his department, and you aren't allowed to break in because it'd violate rule 3?

Yes it's called player interaction you can no longer exist as an automaton running around saying nothing and grabbing shit. If you want medical assistance, you have to maintain a bare level of social interaction (AND HOLY FUCK MAYBE EVEN PERSUASION OR NEGOTIATION) to get shit done.

Jesus christ I know 40% of this community is autistic but it really shows when people literally can't fathom that the way to get things you want from people is through social interaction not speeding past them on maintcrack to grab a medkit and whizz back out terrified of accidentally being triggered by someone saying "Hi there" in runechat and having a nervous breakdown

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:08 am Yeah dude if you break in for Gamer Gear when someone said "dude don't" and there's no actual threat, especially because you just want to become a katamari of validhunting equipment, that's obnoxious powergaming and honestly it's mostly a dick move to the doctors too

Doctors are well within their rights to get sick of people invading their homes for gamer gear, god knows it happens enough when they're trying to revive people and shit like that

Who said anything about powergaming? Let's say someone walks in because they want to print a few beakers from the lathe, but the CMO is in a sour mood or simply dislikes you, and tells you to fuck off. Deducing he's being a dick, you decide to hack in anyway. The CMO attacks you. You attack back. The CMO is eventually critted. Can you be bwoinked via rule 3 now? If so, is hacking into a department you're not given explicit access now rulebreaking?

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:45 am Yes it's called player interaction you can no longer exist as an automaton running around saying nothing and grabbing shit. If you want medical assistance, you have to maintain a bare level of social interaction (AND HOLY FUCK MAYBE EVEN PERSUASION OR NEGOTIATION) to get shit done.

Jesus christ I know 40% of this community is autistic but it really shows when people literally can't fathom that the way to get things you want from people is through social interaction not speeding past them on maintcrack to grab a medkit and whizz back out terrified of accidentally being triggered by someone saying "Hi there" in runechat and having a nervous breakdown

You've completely lost the thread and have instead chosen to reply to the imagined NRP devil you've created in your head. (A few times now...)
I'm not advocating for speechlessly taking what you want and ignoring everyone. I asked a very specific question. If the CMO disallows you from entering medbay, and you decide to hack in anyway, is this something you can be bwoinked for via rule 3? It would be an IC issue even on Manuel, I am fairly sure, so we are talking about a completely different ruleset if this is the case.

If you somehow decide not to take no for an answer and hack into medbay just to get beakers, that's on you.
Also, viewtopic.php?p=627657#p627657

Archie700 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:33 pm If you somehow decide not to take no for an answer and hack into medbay just to get beakers, that's on you.
Also, viewtopic.php?p=627657#p627657

I still feel that policy is missing something, because as written, it puts the onus for whether what the instigator did was wrong entirely on the defender. If the defender knifes the instigator for stealing his (job item), the instigator is liable for punishment. If the defender just throws him out on his ass non-violently, the instigator has done nothing wrong.

(Obviously that's silly and not the intention but the wording could use clearing up)

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:51 pm

Archie700 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:33 pm If you somehow decide not to take no for an answer and hack into medbay just to get beakers, that's on you.
Also, viewtopic.php?p=627657#p627657

I still feel that policy is missing something, because as written, it puts the onus for whether what the instigator did was wrong entirely on the defender. If the defender knifes the instigator for stealing his (job item), the instigator is liable for punishment. If the defender just throws him out on his ass non-violently, the instigator has done nothing wrong.

(Obviously that's silly and not the intention but the wording could use clearing up)

I was about to say that people should use their common sense but then I remember we're talking about greytiders and validhunters.

I think this policy is a little too vague. What is defined as playing a solely to win and what is defined as being an asshole. An example is if one round I choose to spend 40mins doing xenobio to get the funny teleport cube (which after linking people to it will teleport people who do not resist the teleport after a 10 second cast time.) into a 1x1 box onto a bluespace launch pad which in turn would teleport them into the armory. If you think about it I have done both of the conditions of being an asshole by forcing people to do something they may not want to do (Even tho they can opt out of it by resisting) and fucking with sec by teleporting them all into the armory and winning by doing the thing I spent 40mins trying to do while gaining very little terms of power. There also a lot of jobs the in game that give mostly power gains such as botany, mining and xenobio. If someone who didnt roll the job at round start are they going to be punished for choosing to do that job and then using the power from that job on an antag they may or may not encounter or a fight they may get into with sec.

Now if we are going to be punishing antags for "playing to win" when even with playing a few rounds a day you can easily go days without rolling an antag. I don't think we should be blaming people who do the same thing over and over when you have no space to test out new gimmicks without the big risk of burning your antag. Sometimes the only option is to say fuck and become the caban petter or the sith lord because A: You theory crafted wrong B: The shuttle was called super early C: Its nukie shift. Am pretty sure out of my 2146 rounds I only had 2 wizard shifts. Do you think I even know most of the wizard spells outside of the most commonly used ones. Fuck no. If you want people to not do the samething 50 times over maybe offer people to teleport to the thunderdrome as an antag of their choosing or make campbell into a sandbox server where you can do the samething where its auto wiped after 30mins or something. Thats outside of the scope of a this but the point am trying to make is don't blame the player hate the game for making a system which punishes creative. I think just giving players a place to test out combos will also nerf powergaming and thus vaildhunting because then the vaildhunters will need to predict all 500 combos instead of the 5 most meta ones. I also personally really do not trust admins to balance out a "winning" antag shift by shift admin by admin seeing most of the time when admins interact in the round its to blow something up for no reason or to do something that is very 2d like spawning 50 fuel tanks in 1 spot or making the shuttle super small. These things only have 1 possible outcome which makes it even matter and most of the time its something super basic like blowing up fuels or bringing a max cap to the shuttle. If you want players to love your events maybe do some testing on campbell in your off time to see what you can do. You are legit called a God whenever someone brings you up in game, you have the power to do anything within the limitations of the game. Use your head to see what possibilities are out there.

And before anyone says am most likely some lrp devil who tides/griefs sec every shift because I am against this policy. Yes I do like fucking with other people and causes problems but I don't do it for power, I do it because I enjoy and when sec gets annoyed at me and pulls out their baton and I uno reverse their ass I just drop their baton beside them and walk away.

Antags can do what they want

Playing to win doesn't mean you can't mess with the other crew; that's covered under other rules, and as ever, you can get away with a lot of fuckery if it's sufficiently funny.

HOWEVERRRR

If all you do with your role (and anything you screw other people over to steal) is

hunt down antags, immediately slam and jam them, and ruin their round because the moment they start doing something you pull out the most powerful gamer gear you can

... there's a bit of a problem.

I don't know if people aren't reading the rule in full intentionally or what? I always felt like the meaning was pretty clear.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:11 pm Antags can do what they want

Playing to win doesn't mean you can't mess with the other crew; that's covered under other rules, and as ever, you can get away with a lot of fuckery if it's sufficiently funny.

HOWEVERRRR

If all you do with your role (and anything you screw other people over to steal) is

hunt down antags, immediately slam and jam them, and ruin their round because the moment they start doing something you pull out the most powerful gamer gear you can

... there's a bit of a problem.

I don't know if people aren't reading the rule in full intentionally or what? I always felt like the meaning was pretty clear.

The issue people are calling out is that it isn't clear. I agree this is a great interpretation - but it's still an interpretation nonetheless. "Playing to win" does not necessarily mean powergaming against antags to validhunt them. That's a very specific interpretation of it. MSO would consider getting cablecuffs shiftstart also as "playing to win," and there are likely countless other interpretations admins might take for this rule, all of which could lead to some very inconsistent bwoinking.

if you get bwoinked

A) apologise

B) don't do it again

likelihood of getting banned is very low unless vekter is online.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:46 pm

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:11 pm Antags can do what they want

Playing to win doesn't mean you can't mess with the other crew; that's covered under other rules, and as ever, you can get away with a lot of fuckery if it's sufficiently funny.

HOWEVERRRR

If all you do with your role (and anything you screw other people over to steal) is

hunt down antags, immediately slam and jam them, and ruin their round because the moment they start doing something you pull out the most powerful gamer gear you can

... there's a bit of a problem.

I don't know if people aren't reading the rule in full intentionally or what? I always felt like the meaning was pretty clear.

The issue people are calling out is that it isn't clear. I agree this is a great interpretation - but it's still an interpretation nonetheless. "Playing to win" does not necessarily mean powergaming against antags to validhunt them. That's a very specific interpretation of it. MSO would consider getting cablecuffs shiftstart also as "playing to win," and there are likely countless other interpretations admins might take for this rule, all of which could lead to some very inconsistent bwoinking.

Why would you make cablecuff shift start, assuming you're not an antag or just want to mess around with people who're ok with it

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:32 pm

Flatulent wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:09 pm

Super Aggro Crag wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:20 pm Cry about it pussy tits. for guys who say you love the challenge and intensity of ss13 you seem to fucking shit yourselves and demand people stop bullying you when your opponents have an opportunity to fight back.

Stupid fucking retard. Guys argument is UHHH I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO LOOK FOR A NEW SERVER SO DONT DO ANYTHING I DONT LIKE. Fucking moron.

Guy: maybe we should put our turds into a toilet so that people dont get shit thrown at them all day.

Shit throwing chimp who goes out of his way to look for turds so he can throw shit at everyone: BUT THEN HOW WILL I THROW SHIT AT PEOPLE?

Guy: you could throw shit somewhere else but we dont want it here

SHITCHIMP: WHERE THO?! IM BEING OPPRESSED THIS IS JUST LIKE WHEN THEY EXPELLED THE JEWS IM LITERALLY BEING HOLOCAUSTED AAAH

Guy: whatever shitchimp

Shitchimp: AHHHH AD HOMINEM AD HOMINEM I WINNNNN

Piss up a flagpole and see if you get wet you parasite.

that ass of yours must be very deep if you can keep pulling dumb, shitty arguements out of it repeatedly for over 5 years

fucking newfag i've been pulling dumb shitty arguments out of my ass since 2010

This isn’t a natural museum, why are there talking fossils on this forum?

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:42 am Why would you make cablecuff shift start, assuming you're not an antag or just want to mess around with people who're ok with it

To capture antags/make spears to break sec lockers/grab monkey on chair to kill colossus/other assistant gimmick that involves player involvement. Not a problem with current rules.

Flatulent wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:44 am To capture antags

have you considered playing Security?

other assistant gimmick that involves player involvement

Cablecuffs are not a consensual thing, therefore, rule 1

Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules

being cuffed by a non-antag as a non-antag for stupid shit is, in fact, generally a serious negative impact on one's round

Flatulent wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:44 amgrab monkey on chair to kill colossus

exploit abuse :^)

Flatulent wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:44 ammake spears to break sec lockers

violation of rule 1, stealing all of sec's equipment is negatively impacting their round with no IC justification, remember that /tg/ is LRP, not NRP

Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules

all of your gear being stolen by assistants for no IC reason beyond the OOC reason of validhunting(because antag isnt an IC concept, its an OOC one) seriously negatively impacts the round of the security officer

For your consideration, a shortlist of already explicitly banned "play to win" metrics from long ago that are still enforced to this day:

- No making distro un-malf-sabotagable without a valid reason to fear a malf/rogue AI
- No fortifying brig before a credible threat/attack
- No welding vents without a credible threat/reason
- No trashing of objective items to fuck over traitors
- No early launches without a reason

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:42 am Why would you make cablecuff shift start, assuming you're not an antag or just want to mess around with people who're ok with it

Cablecuffs allow you to nonharmfully stop someone trying to hurt you, via shovecuff. But really you shouldn't need IC justification to make fuckin' cablecuffs. If we're starting to look at individual items like this, we might as well implement Fulp powergaming rules where you need IC justification for toolbelts, IDs, and whatever other shit you find on the floor.

iamgoofball wrote:violation of rule 1, stealing all of sec's equipment is negatively impacting their round with no IC justification, remember that /tg/ is LRP, not NRP

iamgoofball wrote:all of your gear being stolen by assistants for no IC reason beyond the OOC reason of validhunting(because antag isnt an IC concept, its an OOC one) seriously negatively impacts the round of the security officer

Breaking open an arrivals sec locker, or departmental sec locker, hardly impacts the round of a sec officer at all. There are usually over 6 lockers in brig for the same supplies + a baton. Also, to claim hunting for bad guys is OOC because it's referred to as "validhunting," which uses the OOC term "valid," is an insanely warped stretch of logic. You know there are bad guys IC, and you can choose to hunt for them, IC. Note the big "enemy communication intercepted, security level elevated" announcement.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 am

Archie700 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:42 am Why would you make cablecuff shift start, assuming you're not an antag or just want to mess around with people who're ok with it

Cablecuffs allow you to nonharmfully stop someone trying to hurt you, via shovecuff. But really you shouldn't need IC justification to make fuckin' cablecuffs. If we're starting to look at individual items like this, we might as well implement Fulp powergaming rules where you need IC justification for toolbelts, IDs, and whatever other shit you find on the floor.

iamgoofball wrote:violation of rule 1, stealing all of sec's equipment is negatively impacting their round with no IC justification, remember that /tg/ is LRP, not NRP

iamgoofball wrote:all of your gear being stolen by assistants for no IC reason beyond the OOC reason of validhunting(because antag isnt an IC concept, its an OOC one) seriously negatively impacts the round of the security officer

Breaking open an arrivals sec locker, or departmental sec locker, hardly impacts the round of a sec officer at all. There are usually over 6 lockers in brig for the same supplies + a baton. Also, to claim hunting for bad guys is OOC because it's referred to as "validhunting," which uses the OOC term "valid," is an insanely warped stretch of logic. You know there are bad guys IC, and you can choose to hunt for them, IC. Note the big "enemy communication intercepted, security level elevated" announcement.

It could be a greenshift. The fact that you immediately assume "THERE MUST BE VALIDS" is proof that you're just metagaming. You're literally arguing in defense of being able to go and grab something that you'll need to "detain an attacker" with no reason to EXPECT to be attacked.

The only valid reason for cablecuffs roundstart is to cuff a monkey so that you can kill it for research.

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:55 am For your consideration, a shortlist of already explicitly banned "play to win" metrics from long ago that are still enforced to this day:

- No making distro un-malf-sabotagable without a valid reason to fear a malf/rogue AI
- No fortifying brig before a credible threat/attack
- No welding vents without a credible threat/reason
- No trashing of objective items to fuck over traitors
- No early launches without a reason

Bold ones arent actually banned in rules or admin policy or RP rules, although there is an exception for the brig in the form of *barricades* which arent allowed. That policy needs some revision though since its from 2014 and is based around a metagaming rule we don't have anymore.

Critawakets wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 2:44 am

Mothblocks wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:55 am For your consideration, a shortlist of already explicitly banned "play to win" metrics from long ago that are still enforced to this day:

- No making distro un-malf-sabotagable without a valid reason to fear a malf/rogue AI
- No fortifying brig before a credible threat/attack
- No welding vents without a credible threat/reason
- No trashing of objective items to fuck over traitors
- No early launches without a reason

Bold ones arent actually banned in rules or admin policy or RP rules, although there is an exception for the brig in the form of *barricades* which arent allowed. That policy needs some revision though since its from 2014 and is based around a metagaming rule we don't have anymore.

Welding vents is similar to the first one in that it prevents plasma or n2o flood

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:36 pm
It could be a greenshift. The fact that you immediately assume "THERE MUST BE VALIDS" is proof that you're just metagaming. You're literally arguing in defense of being able to go and grab something that you'll need to "detain an attacker" with no reason to EXPECT to be attacked.

actually if there's less than 20 shown threat and no antags spawn, it specifically tells you it's a peaceful waypoint and that htere's no antags, the report CANNOT be wrong about this because when it checks for peaceful waypoint it checks if the threat amount it sees (which can be wrong) AND if there are any living antags (this part of the report cannot be wrong as far as I know) so the report doesn't lie when it says its a green shift

So it CAN be a green shift when the report says otherwise but thats very rare because the shown threat HAS to be wrong for it to lie about green shift and green shifts themselves are already pretty rare on their own

SkeletalElite wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:27 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:36 pm
It could be a greenshift. The fact that you immediately assume "THERE MUST BE VALIDS" is proof that you're just metagaming. You're literally arguing in defense of being able to go and grab something that you'll need to "detain an attacker" with no reason to EXPECT to be attacked.

actually if there's less than 20 shown threat and no antags spawn, it specifically tells you it's a peaceful waypoint and that htere's no antags, the report CANNOT be wrong about this because when it checks for peaceful waypoint it checks if the threat amount it sees (which can be wrong) AND if there are any living antags (this part of the report cannot be wrong as far as I know) so the report doesn't lie when it says its a green shift

So it CAN be a green shift when the report says otherwise but thats very rare because the shown threat HAS to be wrong for it to lie about green shift and green shifts themselves are already pretty rare on their own

I'm pretty sure I've seen it claim Peaceful Waypoint and not be. I've also seen it claim Black Orbit and be a greenshift. If we allow that knowledge, then we also have to acknowledge that it's often wrong. Which means we don't necessarily have a reason to make those cuffs.

The report is intentionally supposed to give you an umbrella and never actually give you any solid meta information (at least, now that dynamic is under my direction). It explicitly checking for antags is news to me and I'll be fixing that when I wake up.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:14 pm As an aside, look at the tl;dr at the top of the page:

There’s a lot here, but the gist of the rules is roleplay takes priority. Don’t murder just for fun if you’re not antag. Don’t metagame. Don’t play to win. Don’t be a jerk OOCly. If you don’t understand what those words mean or you need more detail, read on!

I can see why people argue old TG was MRP. That's like 50% of the way to the RP rules in 6 sentences.

old /tg/ was MRP because the only way you'd even know about it was via word of mouth in roleplaying communities or because you played on goon and left when people got fed up with the shitty goon jannies. Roleplaying being the primary reason to play was never brought to question, it was the generally accepted consensus and seemed so obvious it didn't really need stating for almost everybody who was playing. Almost every player was a roleplayer and came for that reason, and the odd guy out would have to adapt and put in an effort or be shunned. It was an entirely different playerbase that didn't need policing or coerced into having to roleplay.

I remember the chaos and greytide of high pop Sybil1 and the lowpop murderboners of Sybil2. There were still roleplayers, at least in the snowflake OC + metafriend sense. It’s a mistake to think playing competitively and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.

cacogen wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:33 pm It’s a mistake to think playing competitively and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.

So true

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:14 pm have you considered playing Security?

admins bwoink me for valid round removal without actually making notes or banning me for it
i dont want to borg antag/valid, i want to cremate it and with annoying retards yelling in my ear that gets pretty annoying
so i didnt concern myself with playing security because it gets too annoying if theres thunder or vekter online
they seem to forget that i have zero obligation to actually give a shit about not completely round removing valid idiots

iamgoofball wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:14 pm Cablecuffs are not a consensual thing, therefore, rule 1

>what is escalation

Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules

how conveniently vague for banbots

being cuffed by a non-antag as a non-antag for stupid shit is, in fact, generally a serious negative impact on one's round

interacting with most medbay players post-cloning removal is also a negative impact on ones round, but I don’t see admins lining up to ban them

exploit abuse

if its an exploit perhaps you should have considered nerfing it for approximately 2-3 years before it was fixed by making chair break on taking too many hits

violation of rule 1, stealing all of sec's equipment is negatively impacting their round with no IC justification, remember that /tg/ is LRP, not NRP

all of your gear being stolen by assistants for no IC reason beyond the OOC reason of validhunting(because antag isnt an IC concept, its an OOC one) seriously negatively impacts the round of the security officer

maybe buy gear from cargo or steal it back
skill issue etc etc
if security doesnt secure their lockers roundstart maybe they shouldnt keep them

Flatulent again proving he’s exactly the type of person this rule would remove from the community.
This game isn’t TTT or among us dude. You don’t have to speedrun the antags, and sometimes having restraint will make the shift overall better. Being removed from the shift isn’t fun, and going out of your way to ensure that happens to the most people is cringe. Bad faith to the max.

I mean this as polite as I can, but I’m glad you left because of rule 11.

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:40 pm This game isn’t TTT or among us dude.

The game should do a better job of catering to Terry’s playstyle. They want something lighter that matters less and there’s no reason the game can’t be that too.

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:01 am

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:40 pm This game isn’t TTT or among us dude.

The game should do a better job of catering to Terry’s playstyle. They want something lighter that matters less and there’s no reason the game can’t be that too.

Or they could just go play TTT and we can keep playing our roleplaying game

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:23 am

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:01 am

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:40 pm This game isn’t TTT or among us dude.

The game should do a better job of catering to Terry’s playstyle. They want something lighter that matters less and there’s no reason the game can’t be that too.

Or they could just go play TTT and we can keep playing our roleplaying game

I'm so confused with this.

A group of players like the lrp nature of the game and play on Terry.
They disagree with rule 3 because they believe it won't make the game fun
Guy who doesn't play and if anything observes then tells them to leave the community.

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:36 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 amL
Breaking open an arrivals sec locker, or departmental sec locker, hardly impacts the round of a sec officer at all. There are usually over 6 lockers in brig for the same supplies + a baton. Also, to claim hunting for bad guys is OOC because it's referred to as "validhunting," which uses the OOC term "valid," is an insanely warped stretch of logic. You know there are bad guys IC, and you can choose to hunt for them, IC. Note the big "enemy communication intercepted, security level elevated" announcement.

It could be a greenshift. The fact that you immediately assume "THERE MUST BE VALIDS" is proof that you're just metagaming. You're literally arguing in defense of being able to go and grab something that you'll need to "detain an attacker" with no reason to EXPECT to be attacked.

Let's assume for the sake of argument metaknowledge is bad and we shouldn't be able to have it. Suppose you catch someone with a cryptographic sequencer, an agent ID, or even an SM shard removal kit. You are not allowed to make the connection that this means they are an EoC, because that would be metaknowledge. These are how the rules are on many HRP servers - you have to pretend to be ignorant to protect the RP environment. Many players find this insufferable, including myself, and don't enjoy playing that way.

Archie700 wrote:The only valid reason for cablecuffs roundstart is to cuff a monkey so that you can kill it for research.

Why does someone need a "valid reason" to carry cablecuffs in the first place?
It's this sort of pro-restriction mindset that makes the game a hugbox. Let players do what they want unless it actually starts to detract from the overall player experience. An antag getting shove-cuffed while trying to gun down an unarmed assistant is a healthy part of the game and promotes an environment where your targets actually might fight back and be hard to kill.

Adam Klein wrote:I mean this as polite as I can, but I’m glad you left because of rule 11.

Armhulen wrote:Or they could just go play TTT and we can keep playing our roleplaying game

These sort of statements detract from any serious discussion and just make the atmosphere hostile.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:41 am

CMDR_Gungnir wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:36 pm

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 amL
Breaking open an arrivals sec locker, or departmental sec locker, hardly impacts the round of a sec officer at all. There are usually over 6 lockers in brig for the same supplies + a baton. Also, to claim hunting for bad guys is OOC because it's referred to as "validhunting," which uses the OOC term "valid," is an insanely warped stretch of logic. You know there are bad guys IC, and you can choose to hunt for them, IC. Note the big "enemy communication intercepted, security level elevated" announcement.

It could be a greenshift. The fact that you immediately assume "THERE MUST BE VALIDS" is proof that you're just metagaming. You're literally arguing in defense of being able to go and grab something that you'll need to "detain an attacker" with no reason to EXPECT to be attacked.

Let's assume for the sake of argument metaknowledge is bad and we shouldn't be able to have it. Suppose you catch someone with a cryptographic sequencer, an agent ID, or even an SM shard removal kit. You are not allowed to make the connection that this means they are an EoC, because that would be metaknowledge. These are how the rules are on many HRP servers - you have to pretend to be ignorant to protect the RP environment. Many players find this insufferable, including myself, and don't enjoy playing that way.

I don't entirely agree! That might be how Skyrat, for example, handles its metaknowledge rules, but I also think that's frankly retarded. You know what the Syndicate is. It's reasonable to know what their equipment is. Noone's saying you shouldn't (though, it CAN be fun to pretend you don't notice shit for the sake of allowing something interesting to happen in the round later. Let him off the hook if you catch him in the first five seconds, and he'll add more to the round later), what we're saying is that before he's even fucked up, you shouldn't be preparing for him. Not trusting someone is one thing, but what benefit does grabbing a bunch of cablecuffs serve if there isn't a threat? There's a difference between being knowledgeable, and being paranoid.

It's one thing to hear "CE is a Changeling!" and prepare something to douse him in BZ, it's another to just carry the stuff around for no reason.

I feel like those kinds of posts ignore one thing, there's not one correct way to play the game. Some people play for the roleplay, some play "competitively" as it was said earlier, and that's fine, pushing server wide changes in rules that aim at dismissing one of those ways to play just because you don't like it is just egoistical, even if it's the thought of a group, if you didn't intend for the server to be like that, maybe it should'nt have been allowed for so long.

The competitive playstyle is the only one that displaces every other playstyle, more specifically the social deduction competitiveness.

The guy looking to btfo all the baddies does not care the baddy is trying to run an interesting gimmick, so they put them out of the round. The guy trying to run the interesting gimmick now has to decide in future rounds does he want to roll that chance and risk sitting out for 30+ minutes, does he now try to give up a portion of his round to make sure he can prepare for those individuals (which takes away from him able to setup nice gimmicks and further rationalizes the people who wanted to kill him anyways because hes prepping for murder), or does he move servers. You either HAVE to mimic their playstyle, or you literally wont be able to play the game.

Historically, most people do the third and the insufferable players tend to follow suite (its not rocket science why our popular server keeps shifting). I also do not buy that these people have some sort of strong connection here, the individuals who tend ot play like this popchase anyways because they dont care about the characters on the server since theyre viewed as competition anyways.

sinfulbliss wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:32 am Also, to claim hunting for bad guys is OOC because it's referred to as "validhunting," which uses the OOC term "valid," is an insanely warped stretch of logic. You know there are bad guys IC, and you can choose to hunt for them, IC. Note the big "enemy communication intercepted, security level elevated" announcement.

The actual rules page wrote:. . . non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:23 am

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:01 am

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:40 pm This game isn’t TTT or among us dude.

The game should do a better job of catering to Terry’s playstyle. They want something lighter that matters less and there’s no reason the game can’t be that too.

Or they could just go play TTT and we can keep playing our roleplaying game

I deliberately didn’t specify what I had in mind here and in hindsight it sort of looks like I’m implying the game should be turned into FotM zoomer shit for Terrytards (although I remember playing TTT around like 2011 and it being boring) when what I really mean is I enjoy the chaos of LRP and think the game should embrace it instead of working against it. But I also think too that the effects of certain mechanics should be reduced for the sake of that. Nobody on Terry is fixing atmos, for example.

What if it was something like that :

3) Being an asshole, who ruins other player's experience, just to win, is considered a 'play-to-win' style of playing. Be considerate of other players' experience.
3.1 Play to win is to gear up as much as possible while griefing other players(Acquiering said gear without griefing is not play to win).

I think most people see that rule as a STAY IN YOUR LANE or TAKE TOOL BELT BEANNED kinda rule maybe this edit would solve some issue ?

cacogen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:34 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:23 am

cacogen wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:01 am

Adam Klein wrote: ↑Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:40 pm This game isn’t TTT or among us dude.

The game should do a better job of catering to Terry’s playstyle. They want something lighter that matters less and there’s no reason the game can’t be that too.

Or they could just go play TTT and we can keep playing our roleplaying game

I deliberately didn’t specify what I had in mind here and in hindsight it sort of looks like I’m implying the game should be turned into FotM zoomer shit for Terrytards (although I remember playing TTT around like 2011 and it being boring) when what I really mean is I enjoy the chaos of LRP and think the game should embrace it instead of working against it. But I also think too that the effects of certain mechanics should be reduced for the sake of that. Nobody on Terry is fixing atmos, for example.

That makes a lot more sense, I do like the chaos of LRP and I'd want to keep that alive. I think a lot of it is good stuff and the degeneracy comes in when people are doing it with the goal of becoming really strong and then wiping out antags. There are many people who simply mess around because it's funny, and they don't mind if they end up dead or alive

please dear god keep this shit to the mrp servers. I play ss13 to have fun, preparing for fights and having it pay off is fucking exhilarating. Please leave lrp alone, lrp is a dying breed as it is please dont roleplayerise everything.

what do you mean I should make a token effort to roleplay in a roleplaying game

supergrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:09 pm please dear god keep this shit to the mrp servers. I play ss13 to have fun, preparing for fights and having it pay off is fucking exhilarating. Please leave lrp alone, lrp is a dying breed as it is please dont roleplayerise everything.

You play shaft miner.

Armhulen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:42 pm Meow

The issue is the people who want to just play TTT conflate not just going out and wiping the station (or wiping antags) in the cheesiest was possible EVERY ROUND with RP. They cannot be reasoned with in that regard.

You can have chaos and you can, unlike Manuel, tell people to grow a pair when they get killed without having the same 5 people shoehorn themselves into the protagonist position every round making people unable to play the game otherwise. Manuel became padded because they displaced the people who I’d argue the server was actually for which is the Lower RP gentleman’s agreement to not be a shitler every round.

It’s a shame no one runs on behalf of that audience

Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:00 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:42 pm Meow

The issue is the people who want to just play TTT conflate not just going out and wiping the station (or wiping antags) in the cheesiest was possible EVERY ROUND with RP. They cannot be reasoned with in that regard.

You can have chaos and you can, unlike Manuel, tell people to grow a pair when they get killed without having the same 5 people shoehorn themselves into the protagonist position every round making people unable to play the game otherwise. Manuel became padded because they displaced the people who I’d argue the server was actually for which is the Lower RP gentleman’s agreement to not be a shitler every round.

It’s a shame no one runs on behalf of that audience

If you run on on that platform you piss off both Manuel and Terry and only appeal to boomers

Not from personal experience of course

Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:00 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:42 pm Meow

The issue is the people who want to just play TTT conflate not just going out and wiping the station (or wiping antags) in the cheesiest was possible EVERY ROUND with RP. They cannot be reasoned with in that regard.

You can have chaos and you can, unlike Manuel, tell people to grow a pair when they get killed without having the same 5 people shoehorn themselves into the protagonist position every round making people unable to play the game otherwise. Manuel became padded because they displaced the people who I’d argue the server was actually for which is the Lower RP gentleman’s agreement to not be a shitler every round.

It’s a shame no one runs on behalf of that audience

I am in full agreement

That's why I say Sybil should be forced to be that again

Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:00 pm

Armhulen wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:42 pm Meow

The issue is the people who want to just play TTT conflate not just going out and wiping the station (or wiping antags) in the cheesiest was possible EVERY ROUND with RP. They cannot be reasoned with in that regard.

You can have chaos and you can, unlike Manuel, tell people to grow a pair when they get killed without having the same 5 people shoehorn themselves into the protagonist position every round making people unable to play the game otherwise. Manuel became padded because they displaced the people who I’d argue the server was actually for which is the Lower RP gentleman’s agreement to not be a shitler every round.

It’s a shame no one runs on behalf of that audience

The divide of people who actually want this is so intense that it is essentially 50/50, maybe even 40/60 in favor of the epic TTT gang, going off of what you can see in rounds and from opinions posted here.
LRP used to be great because it was just /tg/ base, which translates to 'we are all having fun and telling a story and who wins is not the priority'.

I know manual was supposed to be an experiment but why won't we just make 'Diet' where RP is banned. Anything goes. Wanna powergame? Go for it. Don't want to chat? That's fine. Every round is basically a battle royale with uniforms and departments.
That way sinful can shovecuff and defend pedophiles in a safe space for him and everyone else who "doesn't wanna" make a story.

Cobby wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:00 pm The issue is the people who want to just play TTT conflate not just going out and wiping the station (or wiping antags) in the cheesiest was possible EVERY ROUND with RP. They cannot be reasoned with in that regard.

YBS wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:47 am I know manual was supposed to be an experiment but why won't we just make 'Diet' where RP is banned. Anything goes. Wanna powergame? Go for it. Don't want to chat? That's fine. Every round is basically a battle royale with uniforms and departments.
That way sinful can shovecuff and defend pedophiles in a safe space for him and everyone else who "doesn't wanna" make a story.

Y'all should buy a corn field for all of those strawmen you're constructing. We're not cartoonishly evil antiRPaladins with a "thou shalt not suffer an RPer to live" code, we're just people who like a different part of the game than you do (which does NOT mean that we hate what you like about the game).

Cobby wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:46 pm The guy looking to btfo all the baddies does not care the baddy is trying to run an interesting gimmick, so they put them out of the round. The guy trying to run the interesting gimmick now has to decide in future rounds does he want to roll that chance and risk sitting out for 30+ minutes, does he now try to give up a portion of his round to make sure he can prepare for those individuals (which takes away from him able to setup nice gimmicks and further rationalizes the people who wanted to kill him anyways because hes prepping for murder), or does he move servers. You either HAVE to mimic their playstyle, or you literally wont be able to play the game.

Preparing for threats ahead of time does not mean that you want to immediately dunk on antags who're trying to do gimmicks, nor does it mean that you despise RP. If someone is being oppressive to server culture, merc'ing friendlies, consistently destroying RP moments just because they can, and/or generally being an unfun, anti-improv ass, ban/warn them for that, not for acquiring the tools they used to do that. Combat tools have legitimate uses against the antags who DO want to be hunted/fought by someone who isn't holding back and against shitters, and non-combat tools (like, say, medkits) generally aren't going to be screwing over your RP experience.

It's such a strawman you literally displayed the point of it.

If you cant understand "I want to win" by nature goes against every other non-primarily winning playstyle (at least in SS13) I dont know what to tell you considering the obvious example completely blew past you. You had to devolve the post into preemptively gearing up which is not the point of my post or rule 3.