/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

They're not fun for anyone but the murderboner.
Most people up this late are just trying to autismfort.
Why is it allowed to happen?
The response is typically 'git gud scrub' when really, what's there to git gud with when one is hit with an ebow?
Please allow admins to do FUN things to murderboners when pop drops <40 or after 0100 CST, or something. Fuck, I dunno.
Either way, it's not fun, it's disheartening, and makes some people just stop playing.

They can't kill you if you're already dead.

Hey, it's this episode again. I wish they'd stop running re-runs.


Edit: specifically about the murderbone. Low pop murderbone might suck but prolly isn't worth a policy change. Low pop murderbone who delays the round and won't call the shuttle just to murderbone is shit and should get ERT'd or something every time.

I think the point is that it sucks enough to warrant a policy change. Even if it did autocall the shuttle it's 10-15 minutes of being dead, plus losing any progress towards long-term stuff that you wanted to complete that round.

Owegno wrote:

MollyKristoph wrote:Please allow admins to do FUN things to murderboners when pop drops <40 or after 0100 CST, or something. Fuck, I dunno.

We are allowed to do things to murderboners and most admins spawn ERT's against them. Unless you are talking about things like removing all of a murderboners arms or other things that directly harms them.

Do it and if they bitch about the admins ruining their attempt to murderbone in a lowpop round delete their mob and replace it with a salt shaker.

give the crew eswords and eshields and soap grenades and noslips and barrier shields and autorifles if anyone deals any damage to each other

memes aside the above post would probably not be received well, because "if admins can kill/maim/etc. a murderboner on lowpop when can they not do that" slippery slope kinda argument, and I don't think I would entirely disagree

I can live with murderboners that put effort into their plans, those that i can't stand are the ones that just buy the ez murderbone package and kill everyone with minimal resistance in the same boring way. I'd say to include eswords, revolvers and ebows into the lowpop uplink limit, maybe someone'll be inspired to try something different then.

XDTM wrote:I can live with murderboners that put effort into their plans, those that i can't stand are the ones that just buy the ez murderbone package and kill everyone with minimal resistance in the same boring way. I'd say to include eswords, revolvers and ebows into the lowpop uplink limit, maybe someone'll be inspired to try something different then.

I forgot when the freeze is over and I dunno how complex the uplink code is but if I get some free time I may give this a shot

Qbopper wrote:

XDTM wrote:I can live with murderboners that put effort into their plans, those that i can't stand are the ones that just buy the ez murderbone package and kill everyone with minimal resistance in the same boring way. I'd say to include eswords, revolvers and ebows into the lowpop uplink limit, maybe someone'll be inspired to try something different then.

I forgot when the freeze is over and I dunno how complex the uplink code is but if I get some free time I may give this a shot

Freeze lasts a month or until the issue tracker gets under 600 or something

cedarbridge wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:i think you're really confused on how powerful revenants are.
the thing is
they're not really that powerful on a murderboner if they're prepared.
tracking attacks alone is silly.
i think this is more of a policy/player issue than a mechanical/coding one.

If they have the means to murderbone half the crew, they have the means to kill a Revenant. The idea behind letting have their memories is that they'll have free license to fulfill any grudges. We want this to annoy and inconvenience murderboners to maybe discourage that kind of gameplay, give the victims some form of catharsis, and generally spice up the round. Revenants are the a pain in the ass but not quite as heavy handed as an ERT.

The heavyhandedness is intentional though.

My point is that we should try to avoid heavy-handed measures unless there's no other solution.

Luke Cox wrote:

cedarbridge wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:i think you're really confused on how powerful revenants are.
the thing is
they're not really that powerful on a murderboner if they're prepared.
tracking attacks alone is silly.
i think this is more of a policy/player issue than a mechanical/coding one.

If they have the means to murderbone half the crew, they have the means to kill a Revenant. The idea behind letting have their memories is that they'll have free license to fulfill any grudges. We want this to annoy and inconvenience murderboners to maybe discourage that kind of gameplay, give the victims some form of catharsis, and generally spice up the round. Revenants are the a pain in the ass but not quite as heavy handed as an ERT.

The heavyhandedness is intentional though.

My point is that we should try to avoid heavy-handed measures unless there's no other solution.

my point is no one gives a fuck until admins get triggered and spawns ert on them at which point they realize that they should stop and they die.

oranges wrote:

Kor wrote:Fucking people up with buttons or ERT or whatever might be carthartic but it doesn't stop the round from being garbage in the first place.

Admins and coders have spent years stressing that people shouldn't "valid hunt" or fight antags as crew, so to hear those same people saying "lol just kill them yourself when you have no sec" is silly.

yeah maybe the tumblrites of the admin crew.

Validhunting is, for good or bad, an important part of the sec v antags v crew paradigm that takes the whole responsibility of stopping antags away from sec and gives some of it to the crew.

Basically either dunk the antag yourself, autism fort your department, hide, or die.

Qbopper wrote:give the crew eswords and eshields and soap grenades and noslips and barrier shields and autorifles if anyone deals any damage to each other

memes aside the above post would probably not be received well, because "if admins can kill/maim/etc. a murderboner on lowpop when can they not do that" slippery slope kinda argument, and I don't think I would entirely disagree

the first line but unironically.

I think it's a bit silly to expect 5 people to do any actual "roleplay" when people are hardpressed to do it when there's 30something+ people, so they may as well either have fun blowing each other up constantly or building an autism fort with respawns.

Either one is much more enjoyable than dying within the first five minutes and waiting an hour hoping an admin comes online or the traitor is done touching himself to call the shuttle.

I think it's a bit silly to expect 5 people to do any actual "roleplay" when people are hardpressed to do it when there's 30something+ people

What does this line even mean? It's way easier to play DnD with 5 people rather than 30. It's easier to have more in depth conversations with 5 friends than it would be if you had 30 people in a room.

Yeah what the fuck
isn't that backwards

Maybe you should instead of punishing the player murderboning, actually enforce them to do their objectives.

(That or give them a timed option to instantly fire off in a emagged escape pod/shuttle to the syndie base, it still counts as escaping alone before the syndicate trigger a nuclear explosion by bluespacing in a loaded & armed syndicate shuttle)

The carrot either needs to be better objectives or incentive to do your objectives, OR THE STICK of dying on the station unless you avoidably get off via shuttle. The shuttle itself is the longest part of lowpop, as it winds up and then toots away slowly delaying the round, so finding a way to manually "Fade to black" and end the round would also be a resolution so we can speedily get onto the next one.

TL;DR : Force a roundend if the traitor stalls by blowing them up via Nuke and/or sending a shuttle quickly to the stations location with no ETA.

What if completing objectives actually gave you a reward?

Kor wrote:

I think it's a bit silly to expect 5 people to do any actual "roleplay" when people are hardpressed to do it when there's 30something+ people

What does this line even mean? It's way easier to play DnD with 5 people rather than 30. It's easier to have more in depth conversations with 5 friends than it would be if you had 30 people in a room.

Id think if people wanted to do gimmicky stuff they'd be more apt to do it where more people can see (gratification and such ). But yes you are correct, that line is really odd after rereading it.

How about on low pop that Traitors have a objective to ensure that X amount of people are alive and on the escape shuttle when it docks at Centcom, fluff it up that they need the extra people as cover to help sneak into Centcom.

In the same stroke, remove any chance of a Traitor getting a 'hijack' objective on low pop.

The thing is codewise solutions aren't perfect. You can raise prices on lowpop, hell, lower damage on lowpop if you're inclined, but the other methods of "automatically punishing or rewarding traitors" will not work as there is no way to have code account for every single case. Yes, you can track how much damage they do if you want, but that doesn't mean they can't use indirect methods every single time, or look through the code and know exactly how much murder they can do with what method. Also, what's to stop this from backfiring in rev rounds and similar? It's a policy issue because there's no possible way to perfectly cover it with code (And even if there were and I'm proven wrong, I don't feel like it should be a hardcoded restraint).

We're programmers, not magicians

kevinz000 wrote:The thing is codewise solutions aren't perfect. You can raise prices on lowpop, hell, lower damage on lowpop if you're inclined, but the other methods of "automatically punishing or rewarding traitors" will not work as there is no way to have code account for every single case. Yes, you can track how much damage they do if you want, but that doesn't mean they can't use indirect methods every single time, or look through the code and know exactly how much murder they can do with what method. Also, what's to stop this from backfiring in rev rounds and similar? It's a policy issue because there's no possible way to perfectly cover it with code (And even if there were and I'm proven wrong, I don't feel like it should be a hardcoded restraint).

the solution is to run extended every round and ban anyone who feels the need to deal damage to anyone else

Anyways even though I really like the idea of automatically tracking things/etc. I realize that it would be a giant pain in the ass and not very viable (though kevinz I think the idea was that getting around the automatic limits would lead to more creative killing, which few people have a problem with), but I'd really like to see at least a testmerge of capping the really obnoxious items so that they require a certain station population

(also you could disable the tracking if it's a round like rev, as you said)

I mean changeling & traitor (filing DA into the same mode) are basically the longest and least enjoyed rounds on the station because there is no win condition and they are actually minor antagonists. Should the traitor even be coming into full armed contact with the crew at all, and the changeling is always topical for being a undetectable murder machine that abuses its free revives to only have 4 win conditions in which you can defeat it as to default into extended-round, first 2 can be destroyed and the third is containment.

- Incinerate the ling (incinerator can be permadestroyed), fully gib the ling with explosives, grind the ling down in the kitchen (can rebuild but also can be easily took apart by metagaming lings), or indefinitely contain the ling in xenobiology (unreliable due to events)

---

I mean i've said my own thoughts on how to alter the traitor game mode, and others have said how making changelings more detectable/less inclined to go loud , and now we could be having a proper discussion about whether traitors/lings/(ninjas? i already have a balancing idea on that covered but you honestly can't get any more murderbone terrible than it already is) are right to remain as they are.

> All the antags dying in a traitor round defaults it into extended, so maybe we should encourage the antagonists to fail if they get blatently detected and start fighting the crew openly so extended++ is active round decisions (for covert mini antags like traitor and changeling that can be sprinkled in via datum antags, not full 'loud' antags)

> Currently wiz no longer ends the round instantly, and we see the same issues of wizards stalling the round as super-charged traitors and then admins try to seed more antagonists to fill the void. Wizard dies, so suddenly a traitor or two starts to pop up as admins hit buttons.

Seperate issue, but latenight here in California frequently sees Basil and Sybil with a lack of admins. It's dumb because there can be like 40+ people on basil at these latenight times, and without admins it doesn't take long for chaos to ensue.

tl;dr:
let me trialmin already

me too but for sybil

>guy is murderboning
>make 2 ied spears
>throw at guy
>he dead possibly on the first one

>guy is murderboning near you
>grab nearby corpse
>throw at the murderboner
>he gets stunned

confused rock wrote:>guy is murderboning
>make 2 ied spears
>throw at guy
>he dead possibly on the first one

>guy is murderboning near you
>grab nearby corpse
>throw at the murderboner
>he gets stunned

"Just throw floortiles lmao"

I'm sure deadchat will get right on that.

Literally just grab them into a aggressive grab, pull them in & switch hands then pummel the mouth for a beatdown easily. You guys really overcomplicate things with throwing weapons en-masse.

You really have to wonder how desworders manage to kill entire stations if they're so easy to beat

Every time, without fail, when someone complains about excessive force being used the go-to answer is "just use MOAR FORCE LMAO" .

these things suck but they're rarely done intentionally or maliciously

i've been prodding long-round antags if things are nothing but murder after an hour and a half

Something that may be an unpopular suggestion is to have lowpop traitors start with less tc innately, like 10 while leaving the IC reason as "Due to a lack of crew for the sake of infiltration you have been given less telecrystals." or something of the sort

you can get away with more shenanigans and easily get weaponry generally and sec wont immediately dogpile you due to a lack of it when there are only 5-10 crewmembers.

XDTM wrote:You really have to wonder how desworders manage to kill entire stations if they're so easy to beat

Maybe because 87% our playerbase is so braindead they wouldnt realise a guy was a traitor if he ebowed a guy in plain sight and dragged them into maint and the victim said the name in is last breath and wont even react to a corpse in a hall

git gud

It is the sad reality of the game.

You either validhunt or become hunted.

Short answer: Git gud

Long answer: Stop being shit

Git gud and you won't have this issue, that or get used to the fact traitors can murder-bone all they want aka stop being a whiny bitch.

Getting good with vital nessecary gearchecks isn't making the game any more diverse or even better. It just reinforces a shitty attitude that you must always have the best gear or use your minium tools in a skillful way, which is the epitome of being robust but in some situations where stuns etc come in its always going to be a case that you are in a less disadvantageous position.

This is literally arming up for forced gladitorial combat versus antags in 1v1 combat, even in extended mode you need to gearcheck. Generally we have few methods of fighting more than one opponent at once, and its focused on 1v1 combat without a completely bottlenecked all in response like Sleeping Carp or Flash Grenades or EMP grenades for multiple borgs.

> We have already devolved into a goonstation situation of stupid armor values vs impossible weapon values, because traitor offensive weapons need to be high tier to work to murder people rather than innovative but we also need to argue that via coders like steelpoint ("Yeah its not a problem im going to buff this HOS suit up 2000% on armor values) that feel the need to equalise, and then the cycle begins again with coders making even more poweful weapons deliberately meant to be strong.



Esworder has some avenues of defence, but without a complete gearcheck of the precise equipment or a literal roll of the dice that the esworder (doesn't come close enough to slash you to death in 3 hits &/or makes a mistake) you can robust them in a general gameplay method such as tabling. A entire deathsquad can be defeated by a roll of the dice on competency, the die is weighted if one person is better than the other even if they have identical equipment.

Remember when this was a atmos simulator, somehow we have become team deathmatch.

fwoosh making good points and actually writing them in a legible way goddamn

seriously "git gud" is such a terrible attitude to hold, we're all well aware antags have no rules but rule 1 takes precedence - if you're going to kill the entire crew on lowpop (especially when you don't even have a hijack objective, or a reason to be going loud) I would 100% say you're breaking rule 1

I'm really curious how many of the people saying "haha lol u suk get gud" even regular on sybil lowpop because the consensus in game when the topic comes up is that lowpop murderboning is fucking terrible and is a major problem due to the lack of admins on to punish it - I see people express this sentiment often on sybil and they want more admins who play at different times to help counteract that

(I don't think that's going to work for a few reasons but that's off topic)

I could live with murderboning if it didn't take 15 minutes to end the round after the shuttle is called, if it's ever called. Restart votes exist, but most ghosts just go afk or there are admins on which usually say that restarting would prevent the living players from having fun (which pretty much means the murderboner).

If we can't push against free murderboning i'd like a high-speed shuttlecall (1-2 mins) vote controlled by non-afk ghosts if there are more ghosts than living players (or 75% ghosts 25% living), so when the murderboner is done at least we can get on to the next round without just having to wait ten minutes.

>Antags have no rules aside from cheating and rape
>But lets just slap rules on them anyway

Uh huh

Takeguru wrote:>Antags have no rules aside from cheating and rape
>But lets just slap rules on them anyway

Uh huh

> Trap clowns & Trap greyshirts are allowed to scream rape over comms when they get caught greytiding without a bwoink and are being dragged into brig. Dealing with verbal abuse is enough but when you pretty much rally a entire station against you with something that bizarre & also provoking im really suprised admins let it slide.

Being a antag should be a privilege you earn not a right, whitelisting might be a way to navigate around inconsistent antags that don't observe to even follow objectives, its kind of harsh and going into yog "You're not allowed to kill anybody but the target" territory but if its what we need.

Takeguru wrote:>Antags have no rules aside from cheating and rape
>But lets just slap rules on them anyway

Uh huh

I mean, yes, that's exaclty what is being said

No rules means people murderbone, murderbone is bad, add rule to not murderbone, fix issue

Antags can still exist without murderbone

Lets venture forth into the era of boring as fuck antags then

Antags only doing their objectives gets boring fast

Stuff target, remove body from the game, do nothing for 5 hours because the shuttle never gets called without an actual threat

Or even worse, the steal objectives
Put plasma tank in backpack, do nothing, no conflict at all

Cedarbridge have you ever actually played on Baystation? I have. It's supremely boring, and this is coming from someone who enjoys roleplaying and has been in like 15 tabletop games. You want us to go that way with your "antags have to make the round fun but NO MURDERS OK" mindset.

I strongly encourage you to play on Baystation for a week, no breaks. You'll come back and view murderboning in a whole new light.

On lowpop murderboning: It's pretty rude, but legal. Lowpop blows anyways.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Cedarbridge have you ever actually played on Baystation? I have. It's supremely boring, and this is coming from someone who enjoys roleplaying and has been in like 15 tabletop games. You want us to go that way with your "antags have to make the round fun but NO MURDERS OK" mindset.

I strongly encourage you to play on Baystation for a week, no breaks. You'll come back and view murderboning in a whole new light.

On lowpop murderboning: It's pretty rude, but legal. Lowpop blows anyways.

Why are you naming me here? I've said none of the things you're accusing me of saying here. What's your beef?

Takeguru wrote:Lets venture forth into the era of boring as fuck antags then

Antags only doing their objectives gets boring fast

Stuff target, remove body from the game, do nothing for 5 hours because the shuttle never gets called without an actual threat

Or even worse, the steal objectives
Put plasma tank in backpack, do nothing, no conflict at all

Design more inventive objectives & antagonists then, admins can practically alter whatever objective text they want.

It's not a choice between murderbone and pseudo-extended, there are plenty of interesting rounds without someone deswording half the crew at roundstart. And murderbone is pretty much less fun than extended, because you get to watch 15+ minutes of empty station, while on extended at least people are doing/building stuff.

Also i'm not opposed to late-round murderbone, especially if it's done with a prepared gimmick (for example, with an odysseus loaded with plasmaman slime). At that point people are usually done with what they want to do and would usually be fine with an antag shaking things up. Roundstart murderbone, instead, pretty much overrides any event or gimmick that takes some time to set up, preventing new interactions and making rounds repetitive.

Bartender is the only really solid lowpop counter to the e-sworder without a huge security compromise if they fail because of the reliability of beanbag bullets, hence why at one time sec was given rifles but that may be perhaps too high powered a response, perhaps security needs to have a lowish damage but still small arms response inside their lockers that uses (but again, a gearcheck, no thank you) a centcomm stetchkin or something you need to unload a entire clip to down someone with while still having the detective having the more high power & reliable firearm.

Bringing out large swat/combat shotguns is not proportionate and outfitting all officers with watered down karate similar to the warden isn't particularly effective against better counter-karate sleeping carp, in which at some point you become silly TMNT foot clan ninja fodder. In which case expect to be tossed aside and into the HOS's mech.

Takeguru wrote:Lets venture forth into the era of boring as fuck antags then

Antags only doing their objectives gets boring fast

Stuff target, remove body from the game, do nothing for 5 hours because the shuttle never gets called without an actual threat

Or even worse, the steal objectives
Put plasma tank in backpack, do nothing, no conflict at all

One guy taking the whole armoury and silently killing the 10 people online and making them wait 20 minutes for the round to restart followed by doing it again is also boring.

We recognize that rev and nuke need a minimum number of players/security to be fun and disabled them at low pop without us turning into bay station, asking traitors to do something more exciting than a double esword spree when there is almost nobody online wont turn us into bay either.

No admins on time to murderbone away from new harsher rule enforcement.

Kor wrote:

Takeguru wrote:Lets venture forth into the era of boring as fuck antags then

Antags only doing their objectives gets boring fast

Stuff target, remove body from the game, do nothing for 5 hours because the shuttle never gets called without an actual threat

Or even worse, the steal objectives
Put plasma tank in backpack, do nothing, no conflict at all

One guy taking the whole armoury and silently killing the 10 people online and making them wait 20 minutes for the round to restart followed by doing it again is also boring.

We recognize that rev and nuke need a minimum number of players/security to be fun and disabled them at low pop without us turning into bay station, asking traitors to do something more exciting than a double esword spree when there is almost nobody online wont turn us into bay either.

thank you for summing up why that mentality is ridiculous, does anyone (beyond the murdrerboner) find lowpop murderboning fun/conducive to the game? my experience says no