/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

The position of "Headmin" has come to mean far too much without the checks and balances afforded by having a group of them. The current state is that of a "leader for life" with total power over policy decisions and administrative control. This is purely by chance, having resulted from the other two dropping off the face of the Earth. For good or ill, I present that this causes stagnation and the promotion of a status-quo which provides the current holder free-reign to abuse that authority. This thread is not designed to call into question the abilities or judgement of a particular administrator. It is simply to judge the validity of what "Headmins" have evolved into. Not by conscious edict, but by circumstance.

Our elections or the abolishment of this system in favor of a different one (something that has been discussed both publically and privately for a number of months previous to this thread) are long overdue. The goal here in short is to include the public's opinion on the current system, the possible replacements, and to promote awareness regarding the issue so that we might see some sort of change or evaluation come to fruition sooner. Several admins, myself included, would be very interested to hear your opinions.

Among the proposed alternatives, which is by no means a comprehensive or official list, are...

1) A triumvirate selected with (1) decided by SoS, (1) decided by the public and (1) decided by admins.

2) Removal of Headmins in their entirety

3) Elections, be they public or private, to re-evaluate the current candidates.

And remember folks, please do try and keep it civil. I flubbed that pretty hard already by myself.

Weird then yeah just do that so the coders can have a devil's advocate in #conspiracybus

Heres a crazy idea:

Admins submit votes as posts in adminbus listing who they think should be headmin and why.

Those votes are made public and players get to vote on admins' votes.

The admin who made the vote will remain private till the end when the 'winner'(shitty term) is announced.

i can dig it. keeps it neutral and fair.

Is there any restrictions as to who can run for headmin because I want to seriously run for it.

p. sure u have to be an admin.

MrStonedOne wrote:Heres a crazy idea:

Admins submit votes as posts in adminbus listing who they think should be headmin and why.

Those votes are made public and players get to vote on admins' votes.

The admin who made the vote will remain private till the end when the 'winner'(shitty term) is announced.

The admins already get to pick 1, why should they have any influence over the player picked one?

Can we get Ikkarus to join the code project again so we can elect him coderheadmin?

Ikky's still an admin, he'd be a viable candidate for that position.

I would suggest doing votes in the order of:

1) SoS'/coderbus' pick
2) Adminbus' pick
3) Playerbase's pick

This way the playerbase gets to see who has already been chosen for the other two roles and get to vote accordingly. By voting last they get to make the most informed vote.

The headmin that the coders pick doesn't have to be a maintainer or have the coder flag, I don't think. Just an admin who's involved with the codebase would be nice. Like HG, if he wasn't project manager. It gives them an ear into what the admins want, and especially big exploits, because admins find the most serious bugs I've come to find from just observing a lot of the time.

Coderbus already has ears in adminbus; They just don't care about what adminbus wants.

If coderbus doesn't care about anybody else in the community, why should they have a rep in the headmin elections?

Reimoo wrote:If coderbus doesn't care about anybody else in the community, why should they have a rep in the headmin elections?

>I AM THE COMMUNITY
evrtme

Reimoo wrote:If coderbus doesn't care about anybody else in the community, why should they have a rep in the headmin elections?

So Scaredy doesn't have to bother picking someone, apparently.

We're getting dangerously close to a derail here.
Let's leave the Admin/Coder culture-war out of it for the moment. It has very little to do with what we're trying to achieve.

SoS wanting Coderbus (a third entity in the arbitrary trifecta of /tg/station) to decide a third candidate doesn't necessarily point to anything other than that perhaps he doesn't want sole control of a choice. Having coders vote on Admins is, for sake of the debate, about as uninformed as players voting on Admins. Anyone who isn't in asay 99% of their time on the server is technically "uninformed." That doesn't make their opinions invalid or their vote not count.

They're still selecting from the same pool. They're still part of /tg/station. Their priorities are just different.

If we're going to oppose the third selection being from Coderbus let's do it for reasons other than "they're meanies and they don't listen to me."

>dangerously close to a derail.
No I'm fairly certain this is on track, it's just a sore spot that most people don't like talking about.

No he's right it's uncalled for.

If it's what SoS wants then so be it.

paprika wrote:

An0n3 wrote:If it was just a popularity contest why did Intigracy, Deuryn, or myself get so many votes?

B-b-because Intigracy was as much of an attention whore for votes as HBL was? Seriously, if you saw any of Intigracy's FUCK THE ADMINS I'M ON YOUR SIDE GUYS posts you'd realize he just tries to appeal to the lowest common denominator for votes. People STILL like him, too.

this isnt really relevant anymore but youre an idiot if you think he just did it for votes
intig legit hated most of the admins. he left because he thought they made shit decisions.

miggles wrote:

paprika wrote:

An0n3 wrote:If it was just a popularity contest why did Intigracy, Deuryn, or myself get so many votes?

B-b-because Intigracy was as much of an attention whore for votes as HBL was? Seriously, if you saw any of Intigracy's FUCK THE ADMINS I'M ON YOUR SIDE GUYS posts you'd realize he just tries to appeal to the lowest common denominator for votes. People STILL like him, too.

this isnt really relevant anymore but youre an idiot if you think he just did it for votes
intig legit hated most of the admins. he left because he thought they made shit decisions.

Man I'm going to keep stirring up bad blood but...

For a while he and I had been talking privately about him naming me as a successor when he left for the armed forces, to take over his responsibilities while he was gone. Being back and fighting with everyone tooth and nail over practically everything, I see both why he had considered it and also why he didn't do it.

Where is Deuryn in all this? He still logs into #adminbus pretty regularly but I haven't seen him comment on anything recently.

Deuryn is a myth at this point.

I mean he's right there.

He's always been the kind of person you have to get their attention before you get anything out of him but unless he's dead and he has some kind of macro setup that turns on IRC and logs into adminbus periodically there must be SOME human being on the other end of that connection.

Has Deuryn become the ghost in the machine?

Yes.

To be fair, everyone basically agreed on the 3-tier vote option and then Scaredy just said that if we go with that option, he'll give his pick to the coders. Putting aside my culture-war opinions, I think this is a nice idea that potentially will bring about a balanced headmin triumvirate that will be able to speak to everyone's concerns.

So the question now is, what order do we do this in? I think doing:

nominations/candidate threads>ingame player vote (linking to threads)>coder vote>admin vote makes the most sense. (although the discussion/votes among coders and admins could happen simultaneously)

I disagree with the poll for player choice being made in game, as there will be people who will miss it.

Scott wrote:I disagree with the poll for player choice being made in game, as there will be people who will miss it.

What? You mean the people who don't play the game but post on the forums?

Fun fact: Not everyone visits these forums.

We can always put 'VOTE NOW THIS IS FOR REAL THIS TIME' in the MOTD

paprika wrote:We can always put 'VOTE NOW THIS IS FOR REAL THIS TIME' in the MOTD

But honestly, a lot of people in game will neither know nor care, and probably just put down random votes if it bugs them to vote.

Then don't force everyone to vote. Make it visible enough that everyone at least knows about it but only the ones who care about it will actually participate.

Just because this seems to be something we won't come to a unanimous decision on, I've made a separate thread with a poll to discuss the player vote options: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1655

EDIT: Here's a question though, are we all OK with people who belong to multiple groups voting multiple times essentially? Like, there are some people who are players, coders and admins.

QuartzCrystal wrote:EDIT: Here's a question though, are we all OK with people who belong to multiple groups voting multiple times essentially? Like, there are some people who are players, coders and admins.

Everyone should pick a side and stick to it. I assume player's won't have sway on any admin or coder votes, so it should be equal on all fronts. Same thing between coders and admins. One person, one overall vote.

Why are coders getting a headmin vote? Last time I checked they still considered themselves to be separate from the community and not accountable.

Then again last time I checked was last year and most of the retarded headcoders that constantly whined about that left forever.

damiac wrote:

MrStonedOne wrote:Heres a crazy idea:

Admins submit votes as posts in adminbus listing who they think should be headmin and why.

Those votes are made public and players get to vote on admins' votes.

The admin who made the vote will remain private till the end when the 'winner'(shitty term) is announced.

The admins already get to pick 1, why should they have any influence over the player picked one?

I was suggesting that that be how all 3 (or so) are picked