/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:31 am**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Specifically the n-word.

I personally don’t give a flying fuck if you say it, enjoy saying, or believe that saying it is okay. I’m obviously not a fan, but that's not why I'm proposing this change.

It should be banned because it offers little value to the roleplaying experience here. Running around screaming the n-word is not a remotely realistic gimmick under our current rules (which disallow playing characters that are insane (see item 1 in link)). The l-word variation used to refer to lizards is similarly incredibly dull and as unimaginative as ‘shitcurity’. Racist characters should be allowed, but only if they can do so in a creative way that isn’t acting like a child who just learned a new naughty word.

Additionally, discussion surrounding the n-word pop up with alarming frequency, go nowhere, and make everyone mad. Concurrently, it is impossible to reach a conclusive answer on what is and is not allowed. Even if that were the case, that line would continually be challenged by those members of the community who enjoy toeing the line.

I propose that the n-word, and usage thereof, be considered a violation of Rule 3, with a similar punishment structure (1 warning, increasingly long bans for repeated offenses).

Given that this is a contentious topic, I would like to request that discussion in this thread remain civil.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:40 pm**

Alright, fine, if we're gonna make this an actual thing, I'll give my thought process on it.

Three reasons I think slurs should be banned:

1) Creates a hostile environment for folks who are targeted with such words. We have a fair few trans people who play here and I know for a fact they get sick of people using tr*nnie as a pejorative for things they don't like. I can't imagine how many people have come to /tg/ to play only to see someone drop a gamer word and leave, thinking "Do I really want to be involved with people like this?".

2) Normalizes racist/anti-LGBT behavior. Most of us know that, in about 90% of instances, it's a joke. Someone else coming fresh off the boat might not. I have a major concern that people will see us using k*ke and jew and n*gger and think "Hey, these guys are Nazis too!" then want to join us. If you think I'm overblowing this idea, I've had to ban at least three ckeys in the last thirty days that were very, very blatantly anti-Semitic.

3) Honestly it's just not funny anymore. When I was in high school, I'd giggle at when we called each other f*gs or n*iggers but as I've gotten older it's just... not really that humorous anymore to me. This one's a lot more personal than the other reasons, so ignore it if you really feel like it.

tl;dr it makes the server harder for new people to join, it makes people think we're actually racist and not just joking, and it's boring and stupid and edgy.

It's true that someone could legitimately be roleplaying someone racist without reflecting their own views, but i'm of the firm belief that someone spouting n-words IC, especially when it's clear it's simply for the shock value, is likely either doing it out of either immaturity or veiled racism.

It's been a very long time since I've seen this, but it was generally accepted that someone RPing a massive racist in-game in an almost cartoonish manner was treated like someone reading WGW.

MMMiracles wrote:id say make them valid for mob justice but I have a feeling the same people who spout the n word 'ironically' are the same folk who'd get healed up from their ass kicking and spend the rest of the round trying to space you.

We kinda need to stop using this as a manner of punishment. This used to be the thing for whenever someone read WGW over radio, but people were using it as an excuse to self-antag and dunk people. Now we just gib them.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:36 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote:
Yeah I actually agree with that in part. Roleplay can mean you play something other than yourself, however a lot of people definitely have trouble playing anything but themselves.

I still think the actual issue isn't an IC issue but more of an OOC one. People spamming single words IC, whether it be a slur or not probably don't really care much for any kind of meaningful interaction, lrp or mrp.

You’d ban them for spam and not because of the word itself I’d think.

Again I’d like to avoid arguing for people whose entire character is around being racist but it seems like we keep talking about these types of people rather than someone who occasionally says ligger or fag.

I don’t think anyone would be moved if Wets-The-Back or Sum Ting Wong were told to knock it off but that’s not what’s being proposed here.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:43 pm**

Alright, that's at least an attempt at an argument, let's see what we can do here.

Vekter wrote:1) Creates a hostile environment for folks who are targeted with such words. We have a fair few trans people who play here and I know for a fact they get sick of people using tr*nnie as a pejorative for things they don't like. I can't imagine how many people have come to /tg/ to play only to see someone drop a gamer word and leave, thinking "Do I really want to be involved with people like this?".

Okay. Let's say I don't like language policing and censorship because I feel it's a precursor to greater forms of oppression. Let's say your policies create a hostile environment for me. Do I get a say in this? Or do their opinions and feelings matter more than mine? If so, why?

Vekter wrote:2) Normalizes racist/anti-LGBT behavior. Most of us know that, in about 90% of instances, it's a joke. Someone else coming fresh off the boat might not. I have a major concern that people will see us using k*ke and jew and n*gger and think "Hey, these guys are Nazis too!" then want to join us. If you think I'm overblowing this idea, I've had to ban at least three ckeys in the last thirty days that were very, very blatantly anti-Semitic.

There is no group in this day and age that believes that level of prejudice is "Normal". Have you actually been to a place like /pol/? They're well aware they're outcasts. Even the fundamentalist Christians know they're losing the war against gay and trans people. There is no large group of bigots sweeping over the world gaining exponential power and support that you need to fight. There is a large group of neo-progressives looking to impose fascistic levels of censorship, though. The argument from normalization is basically the same argument as "violent videogames will make you a murderer", except on a political scale.

Even if you're just arguing that it would normalize such things within this community, evidently that's not actually a problem given that the administration is actively proposing censorship against people for these very reasons. If a person joins this server and leaves because they're convinced we're a den of Evil Evil Super Bigots, somehow I doubt there's anything you could do to convince them short of obliterating the entire playerbase, whereupon a handful of them would show up, fuck around for a brief period, and then leave because you obliterated the entire playerbase.

Vekter wrote:3) Honestly it's just not funny anymore. When I was in high school, I'd giggle at when we called each other f*gs or n*iggers but as I've gotten older it's just... not really that humorous anymore to me. This one's a lot more personal than the other reasons, so ignore it if you really feel like it.

Your sense of humor or lack thereof is not relevant to this discussion, so, yes, I will ignore it.

Edit: One last thought - You think these people who would leave a server over a six letter word would actually stick around if not for that? If they can't cope with that, how are they going to manage a traitor shooting them in the face or the clown calling them ugly?

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:14 pm**

Somone feeling oppressed because they can't bear not being able to say the n-word is not really worth caring about.
Also the "ban slurs -> slippery slope" argument is getting old, we can draw a line and stick to it, like we do when banning ERP.

Even if you're just arguing that it would normalize such things within this community, evidently that's not actually a problem given that the administration is actively proposing censorship against people for these very reasons.

It indeed will be less of a problem if the proposal is passed.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:17 pm**

XDTM wrote:we can draw a line and stick to it

Even if I believed you could, I certainly don't believe that you will.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:24 pm**

CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:we can draw a line and stick to it
Even if I believed you could, I certainly don't believe that you will.

Why not?

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:26 pm**

XDTM wrote:
CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:we can draw a line and stick to it
Even if I believed you could, I certainly don't believe that you will.
Why not?

Because the kinds of groups who push for censorship do not have a fantastic history of being easily satisfied with initial results.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:00 pm**

CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:
CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:we can draw a line and stick to it
Even if I believed you could, I certainly don't believe that you will.
Why not?
Because the kinds of groups who push for censorship do not have a fantastic history of being easily satisfied with initial results.

The other SS13 servers who banned slurs seem to be running along fine. There are complaints, but pretty much only from people who can't fathom not using the n-word regularly.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:21 pm**

XDTM wrote:
CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:
CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:we can draw a line and stick to it
Even if I believed you could, I certainly don't believe that you will.
Why not?
Because the kinds of groups who push for censorship do not have a fantastic history of being easily satisfied with initial results.
The other SS13 servers who banned slurs seem to be running along fine. There are complaints, but pretty much only from people who can't fathom not using the n-word regularly.

So we were having a debate about why you wouldn't stop at banning slurs, but now you've abandoned that position and have moved on to saying that if you did progress to more extreme censorship, well that's okay because other servers still have players?

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm**

Goon is not fun and keeps getting worse with more and more overbearing administration. I got bwoinked for calling a bad situation retarded in a room with one other guy.
I agree, slurs are cringe. But changing the climate changes the community, which further changes the climate.
Additionally among all this arguing I really only see one common factor, Vekter, please stop inciting arguments.

In addition: when I first joined TG I asked in OOC if I could say the n word, did I want to say it? Not really, but man do I enjoy knowing that I CAN say it.
Imposing a mandatory filter creates a stressful and almost fearsome atmosphere, the very same atmosphere I left goon for.
I greatly enjoyed moving to TG simply because of the relaxed atmosphere in OOC, knowing that I could say whatever the hell I wanted and at worst people would call me bad names.
I dont regularly say the N word, or any slur for that matter, but take away my freedom to do so and it will make me unhappy.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:31 pm**

CDranzer wrote:Okay. Let's say I don't like language policing and censorship because I feel it's a precursor to greater forms of oppression. Let's say your policies create a hostile environment for me. Do I get a say in this? Or do their opinions and feelings matter more than mine? If so, why?

The most oppressed people in the world; the gamer. You can easily choose not to spew slurs, meanwhile someone cannot choose to stop being black. Your argument here hinges on the idea we must be tolerant towards intolerance, that somehow asking people to not be toxic to each other is just as oppressive as allowing the toxicity to fester. As much as I enjoy the banter at times I can't ignore how nasty the community is at times when someone gets into the spotlight for the wrong reasons. Sometimes it's trans suicide memes at a known trans person, sometimes it's endless attacks on contributors for doing what they think is best for the project. I'd be pretty willing to risk offending some of those nasty douchebags if it meant we could remove some of that bullshit.

CDranzer wrote:Even if you're just arguing that it would normalize such things within this community...

It's already normalized and the whole point of bringing that up is to argue the case for moving away from that. Vekter isn't wrong to say that you can get some legitimately nasty people mixed in with all the ironic edgy humor. It's up to the community to decide if it's worth the effort as it honestly wouldn't be easy to change the momentum.

Personally I preferred the attitude we already have; allowing people to say what they want, even if it's the odd slur in OOC or another dumb gimmick Tyrone Watermelon character you can start a fight with in game. It's puerile but it's one of the minor points /tg/ has had over others who would warn or ban for these things and sometimes turns into fun chaos on the servers. Of course often times it's just a tired ol' gimmick everyone is sick of but that's for the community to decide. On that subject; if the community in general did decide to get behind a headmin or poll to remove slurs then I'd be completely for that because ultimately it's up to the community to decide what company it keeps.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:46 pm**

Gigapuddi420 wrote:The most oppressed people in the world; the gamer. You can easily choose not to spew slurs, meanwhile someone cannot choose to stop being black.

So on top of making blind assumptions about the core of my objections in spite of me stating the sources of my beliefs plainly, you've also decided that my opinions matter less because of the circumstances of my birth.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:05 pm**

Blind assumptions about where this will lead are basically all you've had. If that's all you want to take away from my post then maybe your opinions really do matter less.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:20 pm**

I gave this some more thought over the past day and read a lot of opinions from both sides here.

Weighing it being present in our wacky space game to protect the freedom to say anything against a server that is potentially more inviting to people and that doesnt normalize bigotry makes me feel like the later is more preferable by quite a wide margin.

If there was a vote to ban the n-word I would vote yes with little hesitation. I'm uncomfortable seeing it, uncomfortable saying/typing it, and I cant think of any other word or interaction that gives me that unique feeling.

Just my two cents.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:24 pm**

You know, there's something that's been bugging me about this whole debate, and I think I've figured out what it is.
None of the people pushing against this give a shit about minorities. It's all about censorship and authoritarianism.
But the people pushing for it seem deeply concerned for the wellbeing and opinions of minorities. Like it somehow factors heavily into their decision what race and gender somebody is. Like they see them as some kind of lesser people who need to be protected because they're too weak and pathetic to fend for themselves.

Vektor wrote:We have a fair few trans people who play here

Hey, you want to know something funny? I didn't know this. You know why I don't know this? Because I don't consider those people exceptional. They're human beings, not some subclass of infant. What the fuck kind of person actually keeps track of that shit? Are there people in this thread who go around counting minorities?

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:28 pm**

Gigapuddi420 wrote:Sometimes it's trans suicide memes at a known trans person, sometimes it's endless attacks on contributors for doing what they think is best for the project. I'd be pretty willing to risk offending some of those nasty douchebags if it meant we could remove some of that bullshit.

probably the worst examples you could have picked

the first example is direct harassment, and on the occasion that did happen, the person responsible got beaned and the entire community rightfully dogpiled on them on top of that

the second example is also direct harassment, and gets people beaned from the git/coding subforum pretty regularly

what I'm seeing is things working the way they should, people are free to express themselves however they want, and anyone that makes it personal gets shown the door and becomes a pariah

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:30 pm**

man, i'm locking this thread cuz y'all can't behave

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:30 pm**

Vekter wrote:Alright, fine, if we're gonna make this an actual thing, I'll give my thought process on it.

Three reasons I think slurs should be banned:

1) Creates a hostile environment for folks who are targeted with such words. We have a fair few trans people who play here and I know for a fact they get sick of people using tr*nnie as a pejorative for things they don't like. I can't imagine how many people have come to /tg/ to play only to see someone drop a gamer word and leave, thinking "Do I really want to be involved with people like this?".

and were there africans online who took offense over people saying nigger word who would be concerned about this enough to ahelp this?

No, there weren’t, so why are we even discussing this? If no people are harassed by it, what is the problem?

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:04 pm**

Flatulent wrote:If no people are harassed by it, what is the problem?

This here I think is the real argument.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:07 pm**

Electronics wrote:
Flatulent wrote:If no people are harassed by it, what is the problem?
This here I think is the real argument.

There are people arguing that having the word said near them constitutes harassment

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:53 pm**

Electronics wrote:
Flatulent wrote:If no people are harassed by it, what is the problem?
This here I think is the real argument.

if nobody had a problem with it would we even be sitting here in policy discussion talking about how much we like or dislike the word

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:16 pm**

The issue (I think) isn't so much that people are personally offended and upset by it, rather that it reflects poorly on us as a community that we not only allow, but sometimes protect people who throw slurs around like its nothing. Its no secret that the people who say "nigger" 3 times a minute are doing it for attention, and most people who don't find it funny don't want to have to see it.

In a completely different vein, why ban only the n word? Why not any other slurs?

IMO, I don't really care what happens one way or another - people who spam slurs are annoying but so are a shit ton of people on tg. If we start banning in game slurs though (ligger etc) then tg will really just become a shitty hugbox and no different from other servers which do the same.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:51 pm**

MMMiracles wrote:id say make them valid for mob justice but I have a feeling the same people who spout the n word 'ironically' are the same folk who'd get healed up from their ass kicking and spend the rest of the round trying to space you.

I would put it on the same level as reading wgw you can and will get lynched but if you use it to start conflict to kill your attackers back that's a ding dong bannu.

Racist speech is poor taste but i also value the players freedom to say what they want. The last thing i want is this place adding a bunch of "banned" words because feelings, if people don't like it i say ignore it. Though if i catch people spamming it i will have no problem giving a boot because spam is not real conversation. All i can ask is try not to let a few words rustle your jimmy's, learn some coping skills. Those who spout off the n word just proves they are without any class or taste, such people filter themselves out eventually.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:53 pm**

Ok but seriously. WHY do you need to say racial slurs? WHY does not saying it make you feel oppressed and is it just that? A feeling? (Kinda ironically given the word itself that gets mostly passed around is seeped in oppression but w/e)

Give me a legit situation you 100% need to call someone a "n----" and no other word will do.

And not the "slippery slope" or "where does the line end" arguments. I mean straight up, that word. Why?

EDIT: I'm talking in OOC here btw. Not a roleplay situation

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:59 pm**

Our society needs to learn the phrase "sticks and stones" over again, its unhealthy to get outraged over every potential mean thing people say.

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:00 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote:Ok but seriously. WHY do you need to say racial slurs? WHY does not saying it make you feel oppressed and is it just that? A feeling? (Kinda ironically given the word itself that gets mostly passed around is seeped in oppression but w/e)

Give me a legit situation you 100% need to call someone a "n----" and no other word will do.

And not the "slippery slope" or "where does the line end" arguments. I mean straight up, that word. Why?

EDIT: I'm talking in OOC here btw. Not a roleplay situation

because i dont wanna be a word cop, i already have to mop the shit that is whole sentences on these forums every day and another layer of minutia for people to get misdirectedly angry towards me for sounds like hell on earth

that being said i do call people out for saying r*******etard on github but that's more passable because that's not ME doing the banning, it's a literal github banbot

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:02 pm**

peoplearestrange wrote: Give me a legit situation you 100% need to call someone a "n----" and no other word will do.

I’m not creative enough to come up with better slurs and calling someone a retard nigger is serviceable 99% of the time

Posted: **Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:36 pm**

XDTM wrote:Also the "ban slurs -> slippery slope" argument is getting old, we can draw a line and stick to it, like we do when banning ERP.

???

There is no 'line' to stick to what the hell are you talking about? You say "suck this cock clean" you get perma'd what room is there to move more strictly towards?

I don't trust nanny states one bit when they claim "no just let us ban for this one thing and we'll be happy with it". If anyone points out the valid concern that you'll decide it wasn't enough and you want to add stricter rules "nooo that's slippery slope I heard that means it's not an argument somewhere!!!".

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:01 am**

Vekter wrote:1) Creates a hostile environment for folks who are targeted with such words. We have a fair few trans people who play here and I know for a fact they get sick of people using tr*nnie as a pejorative for things they don't like. I can't imagine how many people have come to /tg/ to play only to see someone drop a gamer word and leave, thinking "Do I really want to be involved with people like this?".

On the list of things that have been proven to create a hostile environment:

Administrative overreach.

Hostile or condescending attitudes.

Trying to 'protect' any interest group despite them not asking for protection, which has many implications to it regarding the 'protector'.

Assuming that you know the thoughts of a person, so you make actions based on those instead of actions or actual words by said people.

Attempting to please everyone all the time.

Not distancing yourself from things you have a strong bias or strong feelings against.

and the list goes on.

The more of a safe space you attempt to make a place into, the worse off the community is and will see you as a whole. Take the forum, Resetera for example. It is a very safe place to talk without fear of any 'potentially harmful' conduct going unpunished because they started out with "Let's just do this one thing that'll stop (x) group from doing this, the community will love this!" and it snowballed from there into just straight out banning anything from "Gendered language" to "Dismissive towards journalism". Obviously there are examples on the other extreme, but not nearly as prevalent or invasive as attempting to proactively protect special interest groups that didn't ask in the first place.

You're not serving anyone but yourself when you act towards things like this, and it most certainly does not serve to create a better environment because you create a persistent nagging fear in anybody involved with the community that there might just be one more thing that will be the next issue down the road. Something like "Sure, maybe today I am protected from the gamer words, but tomorrow I could also be targeted for things I myself have done towards another person." Not even specific to the topic of banning slurs this sort of mentality only fosters fear and distrust towards people both in and out of protected groups.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:28 am**

How many damn times are we going to have this thread?

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:40 am**

Anonmare wrote:How many damn times are we going to have this thread?

Probably until word police get their way.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:49 am**

Personally it's not so much to protect specific minorities, it's more that the kind of person that uses slurs casually and dismisses any concern about their effect with 'sticks and stones' tends to lack empathy, which i think is one of the main, fundamental qualities that makes a community good and welcoming.

It also makes the game better, since the core gameplay is based on roleplaying and cooperation.
The thought process that leads to "my actions are a detriment to other people -> they just have to get over it" is also the same that excuses griefing, shitcurity, and all those annoyances caused by one person not caring about the others they're interacting with.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:34 am**

XDTM wrote:Personally it's not so much to protect specific minorities, it's more that the kind of person that uses slurs casually and dismisses any concern about their effect with 'sticks and stones' tends to lack empathy, which i think is one of the main, fundamental qualities that makes a community good and welcoming.

No, I think this is deflecting.

Remember, this isn't a policy on conduct. It's not about harassment or spamming. It's a language policy. And you can't look at a language policy without looking at the words themselves. This is targeting "slurs". What that means in this case is a subset of words deemed offensive to minorities. This means this is a policy built out of specific concern for the wellbeing for minorities. Which may sound fine, until you ask yourself why these minorities are being given special consideration in the first place.

I think the answer is because the people advocating for this change see those minorities as fundamentally weaker and more vulnerable, and they see themselves as noble protectors. I shouldn't have to explain what's wrong with this.

I think the minorities are big boys and girls and indeterminates. I think they're human beings. I think their consideration should be the same as the consideration for everybody else. I think they should be able to come in here and say whatever they want about whatever they want, and I think everybody else should be able to do the same, and if anybody isn't capable of handling that emotionally, it's not because they're part of a weaker subclass of human, it's because they need to grow a spine. I can handle mean words. You can handle mean words. But we're the superior ones, right? We don't need those protections. It's our role to protect the subhumans. That's our burden.

All this talk about maturity and mocking of gamer society and server climate is an attempt to distract from the fact that this policy is fundamentally rooted in a really nasty belief system that most of us do not share. Perhaps you and the bulk of the administration team think of trans people as morality pets.

I fucking don't.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:25 am**

CDranzer wrote:
XDTM wrote:Personally it's not so much to protect specific minorities, it's more that the kind of person that uses slurs casually and dismisses any concern about their effect with 'sticks and stones' tends to lack empathy, which i think is one of the main, fundamental qualities that makes a community good and welcoming.
No, I think this is deflecting.

Remember, this isn't a policy on conduct. It's not about harassment or spamming. It's a language policy. And you can't look at a language policy without looking at the words themselves. This is targeting "slurs". What that means in this case is a subset of words deemed offensive to minorities. This means this is a policy built out of specific concern for the wellbeing for minorities. Which may sound fine, until you ask yourself why these minorities are being given special consideration in the first place.

I think the answer is because the people advocating for this change see those minorities as fundamentally weaker and more vulnerable, and they see themselves as noble protectors. I shouldn't have to explain what's wrong with this.

I think the minorities are big boys and girls and indeterminates. I think they're human beings. I think their consideration should be the same as the consideration for everybody else. I think they should be able to come in here and say whatever they want about whatever they want, and I think everybody else should be able to do the same, and if anybody isn't capable of handling that emotionally, it's not because they're part of a weaker subclass of human, it's because they need to grow a spine. I can handle mean words. You can handle mean words. But we're the superior ones, right? We don't need those protections. It's our role to protect the subhumans. That's our burden.

All this talk about maturity and mocking of gamer society and server climate is an attempt to distract from the fact that this policy is fundamentally rooted in a really nasty belief system that most of us do not share. Perhaps you and the bulk of the administration team think of trans people as morality pets.

I fucking don't.

That's like saying that police arresting thieves implies that the victims couldn't defend themselves. They could, but shouldn't need to, and the thief is the one at fault there.
To add to the metaphor, if you let the thief go unpunished he's gonna go around thieving other people's houses, and grow bolder since there are no repercussions.

It's not about considering someone inferior and in need of protection, i'd say the same even if racism was about people with even-numbered birthdates.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:39 am**

It is conduct. The conduct is violating rule 1 (Don't be a dick) by using slurs. Saying a slur would probably get you fired at work. If your friends are decent people, they'd probably call you out for it. It is, in general society, offensive and looked down upon. There's no discussion to be had about the morality of racism - we all know it's not right. I don't personally care what your intention for using those words is. They're still racist and still don't have a place on our server as far as I'm concerned.

This isn't a matter of trying to protect anyone who might or might not need it, it's a matter of people wanting to not be involved with racial bullshit.

I have more I want to say on the matter but it'll look super bad on me as an admin, so I'll keep that to myself.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:59 am**

Vekter wrote:Saying a slur would probably get you fired at work. If your friends are decent people, they'd probably call you out for it.

More deflection. This policy is not rooted in human decency, it's rooted in prejudice.

Vekter wrote:There's no discussion to be had about the morality of racism - we all know it's not right. I don't personally care what your intention for using those words is. They're still racist and still don't have a place on our server as far as I'm concerned.

I wasn't the one who made a "Protect The Subhumans" policy thread. I'm not the one treating trans people as pets.

Vekter wrote:it's a matter of people wanting to not be involved with racial bullshit.

This entire policy is built on racial bullshit.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:41 am**

The whole 'you're seeing them as lesser people' is a really common anti-LGBT argument that's incredibly facile due to it 1) assuming bad faith and 2) attacking the opponent instead of their argument.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:49 am**

This entire thread has been censorship proponents accusing their opponents of being bad-faith edgy racists. I really don't think you want to take the ad hominem angle.
I don't care what your motivations are, I care what you're doing. And what you're doing is treating minorities as lesser than you while arguing that it's fundamentally okay because you're being nice to them.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:14 am**

Whoops, missed this one.

XDTM wrote:That's like saying that police arresting thieves implies that the victims couldn't defend themselves. They could, but shouldn't need to, and the thief is the one at fault there.
To add to the metaphor, if you let the thief go unpunished he's gonna go around thieving other people's houses, and grow bolder since there are no repercussions.

Theft is an explicit violent targeted crime with a measurable negative consequence. Slurs are hearing a thing and getting upset.
I'm going to do you the good grace of letting you decide which disasterous angle you want to take in trying to explicitly equate those two things now that I've pointed out their gaping disparity.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:33 am**

Vekter wrote:It is conduct. The conduct is violating rule 1 (Don't be a dick) by using slurs.

Nope, this a fringe interpretation of rule 1.

Vekter wrote:Saying a slur would probably get you fired at work.

Nope, not everyone lives in the American nightmare realm. I wouldn't even get a written warning.

Vekter wrote:If your friends are decent people, they'd probably call you out for it.

I don't hang out with retards who determines a person worth by if they adhere to American liberal etiquette. If you are friends with someone you will probably be able to tell if someone is racist.

Vekter wrote:I don't personally care what your intention for using those words is. They're still racist and still don't have a place on our server as far as I'm concerned.

That is a absolutely insane position, the ONLY thing that matters are your intentions. Word have no beliefs and thus cannot be racist, only people can be racist.

If you have bad intention and set out to harass and hurt someone, you should get banned no matter which words you use.

Breaking American cultural taboos does not make racist, believing that your race is superior to other races makes you racist.

Do you think David Duke suddenly became less racist and a better person because he stopped saying "kike" and "nigger"?

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:41 am**

Kryson wrote:I don't hang out with retards who determines a person worth by if they adhere to American liberal etiquette.

This is an extremely petty note but please don't call left-wing progressives "Liberals", they have far more in common with actual unironic crypto-fascists
A liberal used to be somebody who cares about liberty and frankly I'd like my word back

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:28 pm**

CDranzer wrote:
Kryson wrote:I don't hang out with retards who determines a person worth by if they adhere to American liberal etiquette.
This is an extremely petty note but please don't call left-wing progressives "Liberals", they have far more in common with actual unironic crypto-fascists
A liberal used to be somebody who cares about liberty and frankly I'd like my word back

I believe it is the hallmark of the (neo)liberal political movement to focus on culture war issues such as language policing, while ignoring or paying lip-service to material questions such as redistribution.

A corporation being able to fire you and take away your livelihood because you said a word they don't like, that is a liberal position, it sure as hell isn't a left wing or socialist one.

Dredging up that job argument and presenting it as something we should model our community on is way more offensive to me than calling me a faggot.

Lots of people say shit i don't like but i never demand that anyone is censored, because i am grown ass man and i can handle seeing disagreeable text on the internet.

I don't want an overseer looking over my shoulder to make sure I adhere to proper online etiquette.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:38 pm**

CDranzer wrote:This entire thread has been censorship proponents accusing their opponents of being bad-faith edgy racists. I really don't think you want to take the ad hominem angle.
I don't care what your motivations are, I care what you're doing. And what you're doing is treating minorities as lesser than you while arguing that it's fundamentally okay because you're being nice to them.

"You're the real racists!"
lol

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:44 pm**

Kryson wrote:
Vekter wrote:Saying a slur would probably get you fired at work.
Nope, not everyone lives in the American nightmare realm. I wouldn't even get a written warning.

Not everyone lives in the nightmare realm where racism is tolerated at work either.

Kryson wrote:
Vekter wrote:If your friends are decent people, they'd probably call you out for it.
I don't hang out with retards who determines a person worth by if they adhere to American liberal etiquette. If you are friends with someone you will probably be able to tell if someone is racist.

"If your friends are decent people". Also it's not americal liberal etiquette, "not being racist" is a pretty widespread value by now, i'd hope.

Kryson wrote:
Vekter wrote:I don't personally care what your intention for using those words is. They're still racist and still don't have a place on our server as far as I'm concerned.
That is a absolutely insane position, the ONLY thing that matters are your intentions. Word have no beliefs and thus cannot be racist, only people can be racist.

People are judged by their words and actions, since mind-reading technology is still not available.

Kryson wrote: If you have bad intention and set out to harass and hurt someone, you should get banned no matter which words you use.

Yes

Kryson wrote: Breaking American cultural taboos does not make racist, believing that your race is superior to other races makes you racist.

Do you think David Duke suddenly became less racist and a better person because he stopped saying "kike" and "nigger"?

Since the aforementioned mind-reading technology is missing, we can only guess if people are racist by words and actions. Slurs are, unsurprisingly, mostly used by racists, or those who pretend to be racists.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:48 pm**

We should ban people who DONT say nigger

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:49 pm**

The Respected Man wrote:We should ban people who DONT say nigger

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:01 pm**

Ty the Smonk wrote:
The Respected Man wrote:We should ban people who DONT say nigger

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:01 pm**

actioninja wrote:
CDranzer wrote:This entire thread has been censorship proponents accusing their opponents of being bad-faith edgy racists. I really don't think you want to take the ad hominem angle.
I don't care what your motivations are, I care what you're doing. And what you're doing is treating minorities as lesser than you while arguing that it's fundamentally okay because you're being nice to them.
"You're the real racists!"
lol

I actually have a working theory that this has nothing at all to do with race, and the n-word is a complete red herring, but I don't think the thread is ready for that truth bomb yet.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:07 pm**

CDranzer wrote:
actioninja wrote:
CDranzer wrote:This entire thread has been censorship proponents accusing their opponents of being bad-faith edgy racists. I really don't think you want to take the ad hominem angle.
I don't care what your motivations are, I care what you're doing. And what you're doing is treating minorities as lesser than you while arguing that it's fundamentally okay because you're being nice to them.
"You're the real racists!"
lol
I actually have a working theory that this has nothing at all to do with race, and the n-word is a complete red herring, but I don't think the thread is ready for that truth bomb yet.

I said that outright, it's not about the race itself, it's about the people who either think it's ok to be racist or think it's funny to pretend to be one. I'd make the same arguments if people were using the (((jews))) brackets, or any other unmistakable signal of racism/sexism/etc, word or not.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:09 pm**

XDTM wrote:
CDranzer wrote:I actually have a working theory that this has nothing at all to do with race, and the n-word is a complete red herring, but I don't think the thread is ready for that truth bomb yet.
I said that outright, it's not about the race itself, it's about the people who either think it's ok to be racist or think it's funny to pretend to be one. I'd make the same arguments if people were using the (((jews))) brackets, or any other unmistakable signal of racism/sexism/etc, word or not.

Oh no, my theory is way more fun than that.
Maybe later in the hut.

Posted: **Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:36 pm**

Rohen_Tahir wrote:
Ty the Smonk wrote:
The Respected Man wrote:We should ban people who DONT say nigger

/tg/Station 13

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